|
On August 10 2011 11:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 09:58 Bagi wrote:On August 10 2011 09:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 09:46 Bagi wrote:
Great show.
I hope people won't muck up this thread with their balance "discussion" though. indeed, god forbid some people actually think for themselves and vent their opinions on public forums. Engaging in balance discussion makes you a great thinker, who'd have known. However, your usage of the word "vent" is quite appropriate. Thats exactly what balance discussion tends to be, biased people venting their frustration. Which is just one of the reason why its frowned upon in this forum. A discussion about anything could be biased, refusing to talk about something is sticking your head in the sand.
Trashing a thread with biased discussion is refreshing keep it up!
Well I'll contribute my garbage comments.
On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? you cant play a passive aggressive style, because zerg knows that you wont be able to attack him during the midgame if he has infestors out.
That's why you make High Templar! O_O
Basically, Templar force a no-ling mid-game (w/ storm), which usually means the Zerg plays the midgame with Roach, where the Protoss has Forcefields, Storm, and Immortal. Then the Zerg gets Infestor for fungal and tries to tech to ultras or broodlords. If the zerg goes Broodlords- Wham! Void rays! if the Zerg goes ultras- Wham! Warp in 10 more Zealots, keep them in front, and have your immortals target the ultras.
Because you've been so diligently turtling all game, your at least on 3-4 bases. Now that the Zerg is starting to max on Broodlords, Corrupters, and Infestors, you need to engage the Blords and Corrupters with your voidrays. What? How!? They have Infestors! Well, Usually the put their Brood Lords over cliffs or open areas, so stalkers cant blink under them (you need those too! WOW!) And if VRs are charged up, they kill the corrupters fairly fast, along with blords. And you can storm the Broodlords away too! Isn't range great? When the infestors pop out, WHAM, BAM, THANK YOU MAM, feedback them, with the equal range, your "Impressive Protoss Micro" will getcha your feedbacks off first, right?
Good luck and have fun out their, son!
|
On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down?
Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O
|
On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down?
Tal'Darim
Shakuras
Shatter Temple
Typhoon Peaks
Antiga Shipyard
I think thats enough.
If Zerg makes 50 lings, thats 25 drone that could be at his 3rd or 4th. Punish the Zerg for making those units.
Edit: I cant do math.
|
On August 10 2011 11:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 10:45 Ender.Wiggin wrote:On August 10 2011 10:43 Xahhk wrote:On August 10 2011 10:40 butchji wrote:On August 10 2011 10:19 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
quiet noise makes very good points here.
To expand on this, and in particular the iNcontroL vs IdrA debate. I iNcontroL's main fustration is that when IdrA was bitching about Protoss being OP and in particular the death ball - instead of coming up with something creative or different, he would just continously bitch and shout imbalance. And now that the converse is true, instead of bitching, iNcontroL is calling for Protoss to come up with better ideas, and IdrA is just calling Protoss players stupid and allinish. Seriously? Talk about double standards. I am an IdrA fan but I wish he would grow up a bit sometimes. The protoss players are some of the cleverest and most creative.
IdrA also complains about late game. I think Zerg have one of the BEST late games. Ever heard of Broodlord Infestor mate? You can demolish a 200 Protoss army even if you are 120 food.
Also just a quick examination of the ghost:
Cost:
Ghost - 200min 100gas
Infester - 100min 150 gas
HT - 100min 150 gas
Why is the ghost the only one that costs less gas?
Abilities
EMP - RANGE 10, drains 100 shield INSTANTLY, drains 100 energy, decloaks units, 75 energy.
Fungal - Range 9, 38ish damage garenteed, decloaks units, snares, 75 energy.
Storm - Range 9, 80 damange max, doesn't decloak units, 75 energy.
Snipe - RANGE 10; Neural - Range 9; Feedback - Range 9
Why does the ghost have extra range on all its abilities?! They took away the amulet, so HT is the only caster that can't cast the 2nd tier spell straight away. Storm is actually the worst of the 3 abilities IMO as it is. On top of this the other abilities of the casters are much better (cloak, snipe and fungal, burrow, infested terran).
Helllions are insanely good, do huge damage for minimal investment. Baneling and infestor drops are insanely good.
It is way way too early to start shouting imbalance, but I wish the IdrA stop moaning constantly about everything. As a Terran player I would love the Ghost costing less minerals and more gas. We don't have any units (besides Raven) where we can dump gas on (such as sentry). Imo it would help the Terran.  (I very often see top terran players hovering around 1.5k gas while having no minerals - same as zergs have many minerals and no gas) Templar don't get energy right away and the other casters do that's true... but that doesn't necessarily make it somehow worse off than other casters, atleast on the ability to cast the 2nd spell. You make the templar and you wait 45 game seconds exactly for storm to be ready, which is the amount of time it takes for the other casters to get produced from their buildings. It takes 45 seconds after a warp in of HT for the warpgate to be useful again, and it takes 5 seconds for the HT to actually warp in. That's at least 45sec between warp ins, and 50 seconds to get a HT after a previous one. Terran and Zerg forget that warpgates don't actually save you much time. you dont understand how the warp tech functions. PLease think twice before posting.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Warpgate
Read. Then explain to me. Please.
|
On August 10 2011 11:37 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Tal'Darim Shakuras Shatter Temple Typhoon Peaks Antiga Shipyard I think thats enough. If Zerg makes 50 lings, thats 50 drone that could be at his 3rd or 4th. Punish the Zerg for making those units.
25 drones, just sayin ^.^ 1 larvae = tooo lings.
|
On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O
Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch.
|
On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O
and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus.
|
On August 10 2011 11:38 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:37 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Tal'Darim Shakuras Shatter Temple Typhoon Peaks Antiga Shipyard I think thats enough. If Zerg makes 50 lings, thats 50 drone that could be at his 3rd or 4th. Punish the Zerg for making those units. 25 drones, just sayin ^.^ 1 larvae = tooo lings.
That enough to saturate a base + gas.
|
On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus.
Why did you let him in your main?
|
On August 10 2011 11:39 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra.
It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus. Why did you let him in your main?
What are you gonna do about it, block off your main with cannons?
|
On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus.
1) Don't send your whole army. Keep 1-3 Templar at a vulnerable place, keep some cannons, when the lings come in highlight all your probes and send them to one mineral patch, then when they get small, a move them, it makes surface area small, while your storm with hts or and warp in Zealots. O_O Howwww??
2) Don't let him in your main, LOL!
|
On August 10 2011 11:42 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:39 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Who said a timing push had to be all-in?
Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary?
You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg.
You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win.
Or
You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall.
Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus. Why did you let him in your main? What are you gonna do about it, block off your main with cannons?
Be good at warping in a zealot in that spot or leave 1 sentry behind.
|
On August 10 2011 11:42 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:39 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Who said a timing push had to be all-in?
Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary?
You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg.
You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win.
Or
You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall.
Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus. Why did you let him in your main? What are you gonna do about it, block off your main with cannons?
Forcefields! Send an observer, of your 3 or 4 that give free map vision, and leave it a bit outside your main to spot for ling runbys and you can watch the map and forcefield.
Wait, is all of your attention focused on the screen because it's all to much for you?
|
On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra. It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch.
Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_-
If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long.
|
On August 10 2011 11:43 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:42 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:39 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus. Why did you let him in your main? What are you gonna do about it, block off your main with cannons? Be good at warping in a zealot in that spot or leave 1 sentry behind.
1. you most likely used up all your warpgates to warp in at your 3rd already,
2. you cant rely on the fact that you are going to be able to forcefield off speedlings from getting inside your base. Even if you are MC, thats not very likely. This disussion is pointless though, its easy from your perspective to say that you shouldnt have let those lings inside your main but its going to happen more often than not, especially when you are busy fighting off an attack at your 3rd.
|
xiaon5 and Kajarn. You've managed to turn a relatively balanced and general discussion into a theoretical game and specific situations. Lol.
|
On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra.
It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools. Who said a timing push had to be all-in? Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary? You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg. You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win. Or You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall. Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play. that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long.
Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg.
|
On August 10 2011 11:48 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
xiaon5 and Kajarn. You've managed to turn a relatively balanced and general discussion into a theoretical game and specific situations. Lol.
And quietnoise5 (:
|
On August 10 2011 11:43 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:42 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:39 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:33 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things. Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style. The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks. because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now? Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame. First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira. Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack. OR Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it. Are you serious? exactly on what map can you take third before zerg and not get it raped by a shitload of zerglings the moment the zerg sees it go down? Anyone where your able to warp in sentries, archons, zealots, or *gasp* storming High Temps! :O and when you send your army to defend your third, zerg sends a second group of lings into your main and kills your workers and takes out your nexus. Why did you let him in your main? What are you gonna do about it, block off your main with cannons? Be good at warping in a zealot in that spot or leave 1 sentry behind.
Lol this is a useless comment. "Play better" can be applied to everything. This is not what the conversation was about. Having a trouble against the death ball? Learn to use infestors and broodlords better.
|
On August 10 2011 11:38 Ender.Wiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:25 Hider wrote:On August 10 2011 10:45 Ender.Wiggin wrote:On August 10 2011 10:43 Xahhk wrote:On August 10 2011 10:40 butchji wrote:On August 10 2011 10:19 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
quiet noise makes very good points here.
To expand on this, and in particular the iNcontroL vs IdrA debate. I iNcontroL's main fustration is that when IdrA was bitching about Protoss being OP and in particular the death ball - instead of coming up with something creative or different, he would just continously bitch and shout imbalance. And now that the converse is true, instead of bitching, iNcontroL is calling for Protoss to come up with better ideas, and IdrA is just calling Protoss players stupid and allinish. Seriously? Talk about double standards. I am an IdrA fan but I wish he would grow up a bit sometimes. The protoss players are some of the cleverest and most creative.
IdrA also complains about late game. I think Zerg have one of the BEST late games. Ever heard of Broodlord Infestor mate? You can demolish a 200 Protoss army even if you are 120 food.
Also just a quick examination of the ghost:
Cost:
Ghost - 200min 100gas
Infester - 100min 150 gas
HT - 100min 150 gas
Why is the ghost the only one that costs less gas?
Abilities
EMP - RANGE 10, drains 100 shield INSTANTLY, drains 100 energy, decloaks units, 75 energy.
Fungal - Range 9, 38ish damage garenteed, decloaks units, snares, 75 energy.
Storm - Range 9, 80 damange max, doesn't decloak units, 75 energy.
Snipe - RANGE 10; Neural - Range 9; Feedback - Range 9
Why does the ghost have extra range on all its abilities?! They took away the amulet, so HT is the only caster that can't cast the 2nd tier spell straight away. Storm is actually the worst of the 3 abilities IMO as it is. On top of this the other abilities of the casters are much better (cloak, snipe and fungal, burrow, infested terran).
Helllions are insanely good, do huge damage for minimal investment. Baneling and infestor drops are insanely good.
It is way way too early to start shouting imbalance, but I wish the IdrA stop moaning constantly about everything. As a Terran player I would love the Ghost costing less minerals and more gas. We don't have any units (besides Raven) where we can dump gas on (such as sentry). Imo it would help the Terran. (I very often see top terran players hovering around 1.5k gas while having no minerals - same as zergs have many minerals and no gas) Templar don't get energy right away and the other casters do that's true... but that doesn't necessarily make it somehow worse off than other casters, atleast on the ability to cast the 2nd spell. You make the templar and you wait 45 game seconds exactly for storm to be ready, which is the amount of time it takes for the other casters to get produced from their buildings. It takes 45 seconds after a warp in of HT for the warpgate to be useful again, and it takes 5 seconds for the HT to actually warp in. That's at least 45sec between warp ins, and 50 seconds to get a HT after a previous one. Terran and Zerg forget that warpgates don't actually save you much time. you dont understand how the warp tech functions. PLease think twice before posting. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/WarpgateRead. Then explain to me. Please.
Hider I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how warp tech works. Please share your wisdom with us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
