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On August 10 2011 12:11 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:38 Kajarn wrote:
[quote]
Not really, GL taking a faster 3rd on Xel Naga Caverns or Backwater Gultch. Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_- If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or....
ok, i can see that you are trolling now.
1. why would you build blind-cannons inside your main?
2. Forcefields arent that useful when the lings already are inside your main.
3. Stalkers? versus mass ling? protoss WONT have a large gw unit count after opening stargate by the time this drop hits.
4. he will not have fucking STORM if you go for a quick ling drop when protoss opens stargate. what planet are you on?
5. yeah gravaton beam is really useful against mass speedlings. L O L
none of the things you mention are enough/viable to stop this ling drop, and wich is why NOONE OPENS STARGATE AGAINST ZERG ANYMORE. do you finally get my point or should i start over trying to explain it all to you again?
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The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third.
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On August 10 2011 12:13 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:11 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:45 xiaon5 wrote:
[quote]
Well, you can open stargate their and apply pressure >_-
If oyu don't lose your VR's you have map control and can deny a third for sooooo long. Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg. It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or.... ok, i can see that you are trolling now. 1. why would you build blind-cannons inside your main? 2. Forcefields arent that useful when the lings already are inside your main. 3. Stalkers? versus mass ling? protoss WONT have a large gw unit count after opening stargate by the time this drop hits. 4. he will not have fucking STORM if you go for a quick ling drop when protoss opens stargate. what planet are you on? 5. yeah gravaton beam is really useful against mass speedlings. L O L
1) On maps where you can FE, like shattered, you FFE into stargate, where cannons, a wall, and stargate units will kill a roach/ling push.
2)forcefield them OUT, retard.
3) Stalkers are pretty good behind a wall with cannons
4) storm is just an example of ridiculous tech retard
5) Graviton the roaches, or if he has hydras get THEM.
Very cost effective, and ff off you base where lings cant gooooo..
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On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third.
If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones)
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I like how they didn't hold back on their opinions.
Both sides made a ton of good points. Was very awesome listening to it. This is what SOTG needs to go back to doing... instead of everyone agreeing on whose going to win GSL.
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On August 10 2011 12:16 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:13 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:11 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:49 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
Open stargate and die to a roach/ling doomdrop without being able to do anything about it. there is a reason most pros have stopped doing that build in PvZ, its not to be considered a viable coice against a competend zerg.
It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest. If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them. Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or.... ok, i can see that you are trolling now. 1. why would you build blind-cannons inside your main? 2. Forcefields arent that useful when the lings already are inside your main. 3. Stalkers? versus mass ling? protoss WONT have a large gw unit count after opening stargate by the time this drop hits. 4. he will not have fucking STORM if you go for a quick ling drop when protoss opens stargate. what planet are you on? 5. yeah gravaton beam is really useful against mass speedlings. L O L 1) On maps where you can FE, like shattered, you FFE into stargate, where cannons, a wall, and stargate units will kill a roach/ling push. 2)forcefield them OUT, retard. 3) Stalkers are pretty good behind a wall with cannons 4) storm is just an example of ridiculous tech retard 5) Graviton the roaches, or if he has hydras get THEM. Very cost effective, and ff off you base where lings cant gooooo..
im talking about a fucking mass ling (or with a couple of roaches if you already made them) DROP you RETARD. Get it? A DROP IN YOUR MAIN BASE. when protoss open stargate you go for a fast mass ling drop in his main before he is able to tech switch or make enough ground units to defend it.
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On August 10 2011 12:17 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third. If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones)
I agree. But protoss can't take third before zerg, thats simply the point I came here to make.
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On August 10 2011 12:18 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:16 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:11 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 11:52 xiaon5 wrote:
[quote]
It's only not viable if you undercommit to it, on two bases you can pump a bunch of phoenix to deny some of the drop and then produce with a buncha gates. if the dude IS dropping you spot it because the pressure with the VRs and Phoenix gave you map control, so you can position to forcefielding teh drop in and then easily lifting some crap and useing your gateways to kill the rest.
If they've invested in all that tech and lose the drop off of their 2 bases its Game over for them.
Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd. I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or.... ok, i can see that you are trolling now. 1. why would you build blind-cannons inside your main? 2. Forcefields arent that useful when the lings already are inside your main. 3. Stalkers? versus mass ling? protoss WONT have a large gw unit count after opening stargate by the time this drop hits. 4. he will not have fucking STORM if you go for a quick ling drop when protoss opens stargate. what planet are you on? 5. yeah gravaton beam is really useful against mass speedlings. L O L 1) On maps where you can FE, like shattered, you FFE into stargate, where cannons, a wall, and stargate units will kill a roach/ling push. 2)forcefield them OUT, retard. 3) Stalkers are pretty good behind a wall with cannons 4) storm is just an example of ridiculous tech retard 5) Graviton the roaches, or if he has hydras get THEM. Very cost effective, and ff off you base where lings cant gooooo.. im talking about a fucking mass ling (or with a couple of roaches if you already made them) DROP you RETARD. Get it? A DROP
FORCEFIELD. UNDER. THE. DROP. TRAP. THE. LINGS. SNIPE OVIES. WITH STALKERS OR AIR UNITS.
AND KILL WITH YOUR IMMORTALS.
AND SPOT THIS WITH YOUR OBSERVERS.
ICANUSECAPSLOLIMCOOL
edit: and yes, by the time drops done you have enough gateway units and a robo if thats the way your going.
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On August 10 2011 12:19 Makotoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:17 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third. If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones) I agree. But protoss can't take third before zerg, thats simply the point I came here to make.
It's not neccesary to, the only thing that is really possible is expanding before zerg. If you turtle after getting on that third base as toss you get an unbeatable army and win.
edit: anyway this is my last post here fr now cause i need to go to sleeeep for school
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On August 10 2011 12:19 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:18 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:16 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:11 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 11:56 quiet noise wrote:
[quote]
Sight, again you go off making theoretical assumptions like saying that if you have phoenix, you are 100% guaranteed to spot the drop. Now, if the zerg player is smart, this is wont happen because he will most likely be loading up his drop in a position where you are not likely to have your phoenix fly by, when you are busy trying to lift up drones at his 3rd.
I mean come on, how many times have you seen a protoss player spot/prevent a big zerg drops with phoenix (wich are TERRIBLE at killing overlords btw and if he is smart he will bring some empy ones so you wont know wich one to attack)? i know i have never seen that. Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col. By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers. OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!! By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped. The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or.... ok, i can see that you are trolling now. 1. why would you build blind-cannons inside your main? 2. Forcefields arent that useful when the lings already are inside your main. 3. Stalkers? versus mass ling? protoss WONT have a large gw unit count after opening stargate by the time this drop hits. 4. he will not have fucking STORM if you go for a quick ling drop when protoss opens stargate. what planet are you on? 5. yeah gravaton beam is really useful against mass speedlings. L O L 1) On maps where you can FE, like shattered, you FFE into stargate, where cannons, a wall, and stargate units will kill a roach/ling push. 2)forcefield them OUT, retard. 3) Stalkers are pretty good behind a wall with cannons 4) storm is just an example of ridiculous tech retard 5) Graviton the roaches, or if he has hydras get THEM. Very cost effective, and ff off you base where lings cant gooooo.. im talking about a fucking mass ling (or with a couple of roaches if you already made them) DROP you RETARD. Get it? A DROP FORCEFIELD. UNDER. THE. DROP. TRAP. THE. LINGS. SNIPE OVIES. WITH STALKERS OR AIR UNITS. AND KILL WITH YOUR IMMORTALS. AND SPOT THIS WITH YOUR OBSERVERS. ICANUSECAPSLOLIMCOOL
1. immortals are terrible against lings. are you serious?
2. you wont have alot of sentries because you opened stargate so you cant spam FF.
3. phoenix are fucking terrible at killing overlords.
4. you dont spot this with your observer (wich you are unlikely to have) if the zerg takes a smart route unless you are telepathic. even if you spot it you are screwed because you dont have enough stuff.
5. you die to the lings. you get now why noone opens stargate against zerg? are we done yet or are you gonna make up some more stupid shit and let this pointless discussion go on forever just because you cant stand to admit im right and that stargate opening might not be viable?
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On August 10 2011 12:23 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:19 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 12:17 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third. If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones) I agree. But protoss can't take third before zerg, thats simply the point I came here to make. It's not neccesary to, the only thing that is really possible is expanding before zerg. If you turtle after getting on that third base as toss you get an unbeatable army and win. edit: anyway this is my last post here fr now cause i need to go to sleeeep for school
Colossus voidray HT stalker ball isnt actually unbeatable. Idra just hasn't played with infestors enough so he thinks it is.
If you get a lot of a lot of infestors you can mass fungal the whole army for a long while so they take equal hull damage to weaken them.
Or you can attack straight on while fungaling everything, using mass roach ling to buffer damage while neuraling colossus/voidrays.
If toss overcommits HTs to get rid of infestors you can just refill roaches and go kill him. It's funny how even Destiny with his semi bad micro/macro can beat protoss deathballs because infestor is so damn good of a unit. I just hope idra gets out of his stubborn mode of trying the same thing(which he has admitted is a problem he has). Then he can kill everything with his great mechanics.
Edit: you also get great economy with this cos you only need like 6 infestors and a few dozen lings to shut down all mid game pushes from protoss so you get upgrades REALLY fast and broodlords out at like 18minute mark
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On August 10 2011 12:24 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:19 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:18 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:16 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:11 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:09 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:06 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 12:02 xiaon5 wrote:
[quote]
Look at MC vs IdrA game 1 of MLG Col.
By the time the Doom Drop is available, MC has observers.
OMG HE CAN SPOTS IT? WHGOSIFBHGI:KN!!TNWRKS:HN!!!
By the way, by the time Zerg techs to lair, researches Hydras and Roaches, researches overlord speed, researches overlord drop, his army is a bit weaker then it would be w/o drop and is even with stargate play army cause uve gotten and robo and some gate tech up and w/ forcefields you can take out the drop, and if it doesn't do any damage he is behind because you've denied his third for so long wiht the stargate. Also if they bring extra overlords they've either made extra which is pretty exspensive and reduces army size or if they brought unused overlords you kill them and they cant reinforce as they are supply capped.
The reason idra failed was because he waited for hydras. The best way to do it is probably to go with nothing but Speedlings and drop as soon as drop tech is done. Protoss will NOT be able to hold off 30 lings in his main by the time it hits. No, he failed because he didn't commit to enough spores lol. But a hydra/roach drop in itself is bound to fail. if you want to punish a Protoss for opening stargate you either go with roach/ling or pure ling and hit before he is able to tech switch out of stargate/establish a healthy gateway unit mix. do this and you are pretty much guaranteed to succed. ya thats why you have cannons or forcefields or storm or stalkers or phoenix lift or.... ok, i can see that you are trolling now. 1. why would you build blind-cannons inside your main? 2. Forcefields arent that useful when the lings already are inside your main. 3. Stalkers? versus mass ling? protoss WONT have a large gw unit count after opening stargate by the time this drop hits. 4. he will not have fucking STORM if you go for a quick ling drop when protoss opens stargate. what planet are you on? 5. yeah gravaton beam is really useful against mass speedlings. L O L 1) On maps where you can FE, like shattered, you FFE into stargate, where cannons, a wall, and stargate units will kill a roach/ling push. 2)forcefield them OUT, retard. 3) Stalkers are pretty good behind a wall with cannons 4) storm is just an example of ridiculous tech retard 5) Graviton the roaches, or if he has hydras get THEM. Very cost effective, and ff off you base where lings cant gooooo.. im talking about a fucking mass ling (or with a couple of roaches if you already made them) DROP you RETARD. Get it? A DROP FORCEFIELD. UNDER. THE. DROP. TRAP. THE. LINGS. SNIPE OVIES. WITH STALKERS OR AIR UNITS. AND KILL WITH YOUR IMMORTALS. AND SPOT THIS WITH YOUR OBSERVERS. ICANUSECAPSLOLIMCOOL 1. immortals are terrible against lings. are you serious? 2. you wont have alot of sentries because you opened stargate so you cant spam FF. 3. phoenix are fucking terrible at killing overlords. 4. you dont spot this with your observer (wich you are unlikely to have) if the zerg takes a smart route unless you are telepathic. 5. you die to the lings. you get now why noone opens stargate against zerg? are we done yet or are you gonna make up some more stupid shit and let this pointless discussion go on forever just because you cant stand to admit im right?
If you open FFE, and get your 3rd and 4th gas and DONT PUMP STARGATE UNITS ALL GAME:
1)Yeah, they're their to kill the roaches your motherfucking idiot.
2) Don't pump SG units all game and you somehow get gas.
3) Phoenix are good at lifting roaches and hydras and thinning the numbers.
4) You have an observer. Dumbass. Keep it with their army. If you play standard your income at this point can sustain a robo and a few obs and immo.
5) You don't need to die to lings if you snipe the drops with your stalkers while ffing under the drop.
KEEKEKEKEKEKE
You keep making up random shit.
You act like when the Zerg has drop your still warping in gateways.
I just realized it's stupid to debate with someone who doesn't know how even a STANDARD game plays out.
Peace.
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On August 10 2011 12:29 Makotoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:23 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:19 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 12:17 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third. If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones) I agree. But protoss can't take third before zerg, thats simply the point I came here to make. It's not neccesary to, the only thing that is really possible is expanding before zerg. If you turtle after getting on that third base as toss you get an unbeatable army and win. edit: anyway this is my last post here fr now cause i need to go to sleeeep for school Colossus voidray HT stalker ball isnt actually unbeatable. Idra just hasn't played with infestors enough so he thinks it is. If you get a lot of a lot of infestors you can mass fungal the whole army for a long while so they take equal hull damage to weaken them. Or you can attack straight on while fungaling everything, using mass roach ling to buffer damage while neuraling colossus/voidrays. If toss overcommits HTs to get rid of infestors you can just refill roaches and go kill him. It's funny how even Destiny with his semi bad micro/macro can beat protoss deathballs because infestor is so damn good of a unit. I just hope idra gets out of his stubborn mode of trying the same thing(which he has admitted is a problem he has). Then he can kill everything with his great mechanics.
Uhh.
If the HT get their crap off fast enough or Storm away the infestors( make them back off) it's umbeatable).
AND NO! He doesn't win because INfestor rocks. He wins because of odd timings and his opponents not recognizing what the fuck he's doing. anyway, you don't watch Idras stream much? In late game he's been utilizing 8-15 Infestors at a time.
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On August 10 2011 12:32 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 12:23 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:19 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 12:17 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third. If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones) I agree. But protoss can't take third before zerg, thats simply the point I came here to make. It's not neccesary to, the only thing that is really possible is expanding before zerg. If you turtle after getting on that third base as toss you get an unbeatable army and win. edit: anyway this is my last post here fr now cause i need to go to sleeeep for school Colossus voidray HT stalker ball isnt actually unbeatable. Idra just hasn't played with infestors enough so he thinks it is. If you get a lot of a lot of infestors you can mass fungal the whole army for a long while so they take equal hull damage to weaken them. Or you can attack straight on while fungaling everything, using mass roach ling to buffer damage while neuraling colossus/voidrays. If toss overcommits HTs to get rid of infestors you can just refill roaches and go kill him. It's funny how even Destiny with his semi bad micro/macro can beat protoss deathballs because infestor is so damn good of a unit. I just hope idra gets out of his stubborn mode of trying the same thing(which he has admitted is a problem he has). Then he can kill everything with his great mechanics. Uhh. If the HT get their crap off fast enough or Storm away the infestors( make them back off) it's umbeatable). AND NO! He doesn't win because INfestor rocks. He wins because of odd timings and his opponents not recognizing what the fuck he's doing. anyway, you don't watch Idras stream much? In late game he's been utilizing 8-15 Infestors at a time.
Idra thinks the deathball is unbeatable because he continues to use roach hydra every ZvP lol. Roach/ling/infestors wrecks the deathball so hard.
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Xian: Its stupid to debate with someone who obviously has never seen this ling drop build in action yet he seems to think he knows how to counter it.
You think players like huk and MC stopped using stargate because they just grow tired of winning with the build? or might it be that this mass ling drop is actually pretty damn good at punishing it?
If you made 1 VR and 3-4 phoenix and comitted to GW units after that, you will have 3-4 sentries, 4-5 stalkers and a handful of zealots by the time this drop hits. not enough sentries to forcefield everywhere, not enough stalkers to kill overlords fast. Even if the zerg includes roaches (wich is not that common in this drop) having an immortal out wont help since the lings are still the main threat and your immortal will be a waste of minerals that should have been spent on zealots.
I know how a normal game plays out, you just dont seem to know how this zerg build plays out and you refuse to listen. Why do you refuse to believe that there might be possible to do a fast mass-ling drop that hits before the protoss is able to tech switch out of stargate or get out enough gateway units to hold it? i have seen it happen countless of times, its definitley possible, wich explains why people dont open stargate anymore.
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On August 10 2011 12:32 xiaon5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:29 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 12:23 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:19 Makotoo wrote:On August 10 2011 12:17 xiaon5 wrote:On August 10 2011 12:13 Makotoo wrote:
The thing is, if you want your third faster than zerg, you wont have high templars or enough units to defend the third. The moment zerg sees you take your fast second, he will take his third. this is BEFORE 6 minute mark. after that if zerg has vision of protoss third, and sees protoss trying to take his third, zerg can make something like 30 lings and deny it before completion and he can easily go back to droning. While protoss has less warpgates/tech than he would have if he stayed on 2 base longer and has to spend time building those before he can try to take his third again or try a timing push on the zerg which already has plenty of lings out due to denying the third. If play safe with enough balance in army/economy you can use small pressure like poking with your army and force lots of roach/lings/spines and it reduces any kind of effectiveness that a third gets (w/ less drones) I agree. But protoss can't take third before zerg, thats simply the point I came here to make. It's not neccesary to, the only thing that is really possible is expanding before zerg. If you turtle after getting on that third base as toss you get an unbeatable army and win. edit: anyway this is my last post here fr now cause i need to go to sleeeep for school Colossus voidray HT stalker ball isnt actually unbeatable. Idra just hasn't played with infestors enough so he thinks it is. If you get a lot of a lot of infestors you can mass fungal the whole army for a long while so they take equal hull damage to weaken them. Or you can attack straight on while fungaling everything, using mass roach ling to buffer damage while neuraling colossus/voidrays. If toss overcommits HTs to get rid of infestors you can just refill roaches and go kill him. It's funny how even Destiny with his semi bad micro/macro can beat protoss deathballs because infestor is so damn good of a unit. I just hope idra gets out of his stubborn mode of trying the same thing(which he has admitted is a problem he has). Then he can kill everything with his great mechanics. Uhh. If the HT get their crap off fast enough or Storm away the infestors( make them back off) it's umbeatable). AND NO! He doesn't win because INfestor rocks. He wins because of odd timings and his opponents not recognizing what the fuck he's doing. anyway, you don't watch Idras stream much? In late game he's been utilizing 8-15 Infestors at a time.
I've seen him dismantle toss deathball quite a few times with neural, fungal, broodlord, ling, roach compositions even against players like Puzzle. Fungal actually has a longer range than feedback if you cast it so only the edge hits the hightemplars.
You're right I havent seen idra's stream too much but with 20 infestors~ and 20min mark 3/3 Cracklings are so good since it makes colossus go bonkers not getting a lot done when lings surround them. I assume idra still wastes his supply on corruptors too btw? Those are such a waste of supply when you can run in with 3/3 cracklings supported by broodlings and a few roaches, then fungaling everything and neuraling some colossus/voidrays on the edges. the if the HTs are too far in front to prevent the fungals/ lings coming in you 2 shot them with broodlords and then go in. If they are in the back of army you can fungal the front of the army constantly and use broodlords on it. if the stalkers blink in to kill your broodlords you fungal them and use your lings to kill them.
If protoss goes too sentry heavy cutting stalkers broodlords become stronger and you can poke in and out forcing him to use FF, fungals also 2 shot sentries. Also if protoss cuts stalkers for zealots to kill lings the broodlords are also very much unchecked. Storm isn't very strong against the lings either after they are all over your army.
This style of course needs a good wide engagement area so lings can come from a wide angle so storm damage is minimized, all the while during battle keeping your Z pressed so morel ling reinforcements come as needed or roaches in some cases.
Edit; also you should have a lot of energy on that huge amount of infestors so lobbing 40 infested terrans on the army gives the protoss ball so many targets it will simply melt before your eyes
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I got the double hate from idra today. I'm 1 retarded because I play protoss and all protoss players are retarded according to him. 2. I'm only a lowly diamond player so i'm shit at this game. (yes I realize I'm not a pro but i like to think I'm somewhat competent.)
Why do people dislike this guy?
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favorite episode so far, keep it up boys! 
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xiaon5 is an obvious troll. Can we do something about people like that plz?
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On August 10 2011 14:52 ronpaul012 wrote:
I got the double hate from idra today. I'm 1 retarded because I play protoss and all protoss players are retarded according to him. 2. I'm only a lowly diamond player so i'm shit at this game. (yes I realize I'm not a pro but i like to think I'm somewhat competent.)
Why do people dislike this guy?
He really, really hate protoss yet zerg AND terrans are doing great VS protoss at the moment. I really don't know why he's still on the same path as he was back in the imbalanced video with artosis months ago.
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EPT
