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On August 10 2011 23:38 Legio wrote:
If you angry protosses didn't understand idra / were too upset to listen to what he had to say, here is a summary.
1. Protoss doesn't need to risk his win by doing a coin toss attack in the midgame.
2. If protoss want to win, they play turtle, cannon up and take their third. The cannons nullify any runbys with lings.
3. Late game protoss death ball is unbeatable, so there is no logic in moving out at 140 food.
4. A+move deathball and win.
Idras opinions on gamebalance were:
1. Hellions are imbalanced because theyre 100 minerals, and have devastating attack. Zerg can blindcounter them, but then they are stuck with roaches that do nothing against a terran army.
2. Ghosts are imbalanced because they are so cheap in gas cost - unlike reavers and stormdrops that were powerful units, but came at a big cost.
3. Protoss deathball is imbalanced, because there is nothing that can beat it once u reach it.
Everyone who actually plays Protoss at a decently high level knows that that is 100% unadulterated bullshit.
1. No basis for this at all other than Idra's word.
2. Watch Morrow vs. Huk or Puzzle, this is bullshit.
3. Infestors and baneling drops both allow Zerg to fight evenly with if not outright crush the so-called "deathball".
4. Good one!
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If Terran is so op, why the heck are there 5 non-terran gsl champs? There're just more terrans overall and therefore more good players of this race in korea.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On August 11 2011 03:08 King of Kings wrote:
If Terran is so op, why the heck are there 5 non-terran gsl champs? There're just more terrans overall and therefore more good players of this race in korea.
Do you know how statistics work?
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On August 11 2011 01:51 Philip2110 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 23:38 Legio wrote:
If you angry protosses didn't understand idra / were too upset to listen to what he had to say, here is a summary.
1. Protoss doesn't need to risk his win by doing a coin toss attack in the midgame.
2. If protoss want to win, they play turtle, cannon up and take their third. The cannons nullify any runbys with lings.
3. Late game protoss death ball is unbeatable, so there is no logic in moving out at 140 food.
4. A+move deathball and win.
Idras opinions on gamebalance were:
1. Hellions are imbalanced because theyre 100 minerals, and have devastating attack. Zerg can blindcounter them, but then they are stuck with roaches that do nothing against a terran army.
2. Ghosts are imbalanced because they are so cheap in gas cost - unlike reavers and stormdrops that were powerful units, but came at a big cost.
3. Protoss deathball is imbalanced, because there is nothing that can beat it once u reach it. Ok so from that logic Protoss should only ever move out when Protoss is maxed because otherwise they will lose. BUT... IdrA thinks the turtle to 200 food is imba and should be more easily beatable (it is already beatable this isnt May). So if Bliz do buff Zerg and make it easier to beat the 200 Protoss death ball Protoss will never win because this according to IdrA was the only way Protoss could win before?
I like IdrA, but his logic is crazy. He hates the deathball and thinks its broken. When he is asked what a Protoss should do to win in the current metagame, he thinks they should just turtle until you get the deathball.
Also, infestor + broodlord + any sort of support could give the deathball a run for its money for "silly-unkillable-nonsense."
P.S. Loved InControl's "Inside the Terran keyboard". Next episode he should point out how marines and marauders can both be stimmed with a single button press. Tabing between to two types of units woud be to much. (J.K. its fine and would be sort of dumb if they made terran do it)
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On August 11 2011 03:10 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 03:08 King of Kings wrote:
If Terran is so op, why the heck are there 5 non-terran gsl champs? There're just more terrans overall and therefore more good players of this race in korea. Do you know how statistics work?
Chill drops the logic bomb. 50% of TL posters are knocked off the internet. IP tech support lines are flooded.
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Is it bad that the one thing that left an impression on me from the show was PU's GoatLust impression? Holy what the fuck it was good.
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On August 10 2011 23:38 Legio wrote:
If you angry protosses didn't understand idra / were too upset to listen to what he had to say, here is a summary.
1. Protoss doesn't need to risk his win by doing a coin toss attack in the midgame.
2. If protoss want to win, they play turtle, cannon up and take their third. The cannons nullify any runbys with lings.
3. Late game protoss death ball is unbeatable, so there is no logic in moving out at 140 food.
4. A+move deathball and win.
Idras opinions on gamebalance were:
1. Hellions are imbalanced because theyre 100 minerals, and have devastating attack. Zerg can blindcounter them, but then they are stuck with roaches that do nothing against a terran army.
2. Ghosts are imbalanced because they are so cheap in gas cost - unlike reavers and stormdrops that were powerful units, but came at a big cost.
3. Protoss deathball is imbalanced, because there is nothing that can beat it once u reach it.
The point is, he's simply wrong about the deathball. :/ There have been many high-level games where the Zerg killed the deathball very efficiently. There are actually multiple ways of doing it, although I think most of them involve infestors and Hive tech. I can point you to these games if you want me to. I think the most textbook example is Leenock vs Tassadar on Xel'Naga Caverns during the GSL July Code A semifinals - it's the first set so you can watch it for free. Mana vs Dimaga in the Summer Assembly finals on Metalopolis is also fun, because it shows a Zerg down 40 supply, but still with the better army.
There is a thing to be said about the ling/bling/infestor style, where if the Protoss can turtle on 3 bases, and then do a huge timing push before Zerg can get Hive tech up and running, then he has a good chance of winning. But this is just a specific style having a vulnerable timing, and not some general weakness of the Zerg race.
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In regards to players not wanting to be disturbed at events when they are in 'competitive mode', a system could be introduced to let the fans know if players are currently approachable or not. I don't know what they are actually called but MLG could distribute colour coded neck tags, the things you hang around your neck - like press and backstage passes you can get at events. If they are wearing a red one, it means they don't want to be disturbed, green means they are fine for people to ask for autographs, etc.
Obviously it's not foolproof. Fans may not be informed or not see the tag, players may forget about them, etc and I have no idea how much it would cost to implement but it's just an idea.
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On August 10 2011 20:34 karpo wrote:
He really, really hate protoss yet zerg AND terrans are doing great VS protoss at the moment. I really don't know why he's still on the same path as he was back in the imbalanced video with artosis months ago.
He's mad at iNcontroL because he makes him bench-pressing - also the true reason behind the red face. The sunburn is a lie. That's why IdrA's still hating on Protoss 
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I just saw the latest episode, LOL @ both idra and especially Painuser calling the Protoss Deathball invincible and all P players bad.
Poor incontrol seemed so shocked and apalled at those comments. Great show BTW thanks DjWheat
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Interesting episode. The thing is that Idra should be able to show incontrol what he means by invincible PvZ and then incontrol would not drop a single set as he claims this Turtle tactic is close to unbeatable. But yeah turtle protoss is very annoying to play against
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ROFL at some of the comments on the last few pages here. Anyway, i enjoyed the episode. I think IdrA had a few good points, esp about the game design issues. About the whole toss thing, most of us can't really judge coz we know shit about the issue. So lets leave it at that ^_^
Also, was it just me or was painuser quite mad? Unusually anyway, he seems pretty apathetic most of the time. But this episode he was upset with bnet and hellions and shit. Was quite refreshing to see him with a bit of flare. ^_^
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On August 11 2011 06:54 JoeAWESOME wrote:
Interesting episode. The thing is that Idra should be able to show incontrol what he means by invincible PvZ and then incontrol would not drop a single set as he claims this Turtle tactic is close to unbeatable. But yeah turtle protoss is very annoying to play against
Every Protoss knows what he is talking about. Just because IdrA says its invincible doesnt mean it is
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Ok I disagree with Idra on the fact that protoss deathball is unbeatable, but I think some protoss players are being hypocritical about what should be nerfed/buffed.
Before infestors get their buff, zerg players were complaining about how the protoss deathball was overpowered, and I think the general agreement is that it was too strong against zerg. However, what were protoss players telling the zergs to do? They were saying "You need to do a different style from what you are doing if you want to beat the protoss deathball".
Now the situation is reversed, and protoss are complaining about zerg being too strong, and zergs are saying (specifically IdrA in this case) "I think the style protoss are playing is bad against infestors and you should change how you play if you want to beat the infestor", and a lot of protoss are treating this as ridiculous that some one could think that.
I will leave it to blizzard to decide what is too strong and what is too weak, but until there are changes to the units, I think protoss players should at least try to change their style. If they honestly think the infestor is too strong or 'unbeatable' they will have nothing to lose from changing how they go about playing zerg opponents.
As for Destiny vs Huk... I think incontrol's point about how Huk is a much better player than Destiny is quite moot considering the two players play styles. Destiny plays a style that is MUCH different than the way pretty much 99% of the 'pro' zergs play the game, and sometimes when playing a style that you have never really seen before you just flat out lose to it.
Look at Destiny in tournaments here, he isn't destroying people left right and centre who are "5 times better than him" simply because the infestor is too strong. In fact it is almost to opposite. Once people have seen his style and played against it, they can counter it or play against it without the surprise factor.
For example in a different case, in TvZ there has been a metagame shift to blue flame hellions, and the zerg win rate has dropped. Is this because the hellion is so overpowered zerg can't deal with it? I disagree, and I think most pros feel the same way. The fact is, it's simply a new style that people aren't used to playing against, and it's caught them off guard. The same thing happened to Huk. Yes he's the better player, but he didn't really know how to handle the play style, and that's why he lost those games.
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Awesome episode guys! Really enjoyed the whole thing!
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Idra has trouble with the protoss deathball because he's still running roach hydra. It's quite silly to be honest.
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I facepalm every time I hear Idra talk about balance.
If nothing else, it's at least entertaining.
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Match ups continually evolve, often times in a very dramatic fashion.
PvZ earlier this year, Protoss was considered unbeatable. Suddenly now the tables have shifted. The answer to allowing Protoss to catch back up in the match up maybe recognizing how Zerg managed to pull out ahead.
First off, Stargate and DT harass has been almost completely nullified. The only time in which either of these harassment options work is when the map control they grant delays the Zergs third. However, Zerg usually grabs a third hatch so quickly, this window of opportunity is either so small or non-existant.
Second, the infamous Infestor and its dominance over Blink Stalkers. The entire mid-game of Protoss over the past month has revolved around the cost-effectiveness of Blink against Zerg. Infestors power to shut this play down has left Protoss in shambles.
Clearly there are two problems, A Protoss can't currently effectively harass Zerg, B Infestors shut down the fall back mid-game army. Without any balances, here are some solutions I've tried PvZ:
Reconize which path the Zerg is choosing. He can either hold a quick third with late lair and upgraded roach-ling OR get quick lair for fast Infestors (Destiny style).
If Zerg delays his tech by taking a fast third, the classic +2 Blink Stalker Mid game still work to put on pressure. However, watch out for when his tech does kick in.
If Zerg chooses the Destiny rush for (Godly) Infestors. Punish an attempt to take a 3rd before 6+ Infestors are out. Use either Stargate or DT to gain map control. The goal is not to out right kill the Zerg, but prevent him from abusing the power of Infestors by taking more than 1 expansion at a time.
Abuse the fact Zerg can't get both Infestors and expand aggresively. Zerg much choose to either wait for Infestors or delay them.
Now for the explored area of PvZ: Warp Prism and Zealot/Archon. Zealot/Archon may be able to greatly punish the rush for Infestor/Ling style. While Warp Prisms are an unexplored area for harass. (All theoretical).
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Wow I really love this show. It's like a 10x better version of state of the game. Though I do hope people take Idra's balance whines with a ton of salt. I don't think anyone honestly thinks Idra would admit to any Zerg unit being OP, even if fungal did 30 dps and glaive wyrm damage wasn't reduced on the jumps.
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On August 10 2011 10:19 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
quiet noise makes very good points here.
To expand on this, and in particular the iNcontroL vs IdrA debate. I iNcontroL's main fustration is that when IdrA was bitching about Protoss being OP and in particular the death ball - instead of coming up with something creative or different, he would just continously bitch and shout imbalance. And now that the converse is true, instead of bitching, iNcontroL is calling for Protoss to come up with better ideas, and IdrA is just calling Protoss players stupid and allinish. Seriously? Talk about double standards. I am an IdrA fan but I wish he would grow up a bit sometimes. The protoss players are some of the cleverest and most creative.
IdrA also complains about late game. I think Zerg have one of the BEST late games. Ever heard of Broodlord Infestor mate? You can demolish a 200 Protoss army even if you are 120 food.
Also just a quick examination of the ghost:
Cost:
Ghost - 200min 100gas
Infester - 100min 150 gas
HT - 100min 150 gas
Why is the ghost the only one that costs less gas?
Abilities
EMP - RANGE 10, drains 100 shield INSTANTLY, drains 100 energy, decloaks units, 75 energy.
Fungal - Range 9, 38ish damage garenteed, decloaks units, snares, 75 energy.
Storm - Range 9, 80 damange max, doesn't decloak units, 75 energy.
Snipe - RANGE 10; Neural - Range 9; Feedback - Range 9
Why does the ghost have extra range on all its abilities?! They took away the amulet, so HT is the only caster that can't cast the 2nd tier spell straight away. Storm is actually the worst of the 3 abilities IMO as it is. On top of this the other abilities of the casters are much better (cloak, snipe and fungal, burrow, infested terran).
Helllions are insanely good, do huge damage for minimal investment. Baneling and infestor drops are insanely good.
It is way way too early to start shouting imbalance, but I wish the IdrA stop moaning constantly about everything.
Storm is better than EMP but as you're a protoss player I can see how you might think that way. EMP is really only gotten to stop storm and sentries because they are so powerful. On its own its not that good, and if storm didn't exist you'd never see ghosts except when facing silly strategies such as mass immortals archons or sentries. In most cases its more cost effective to just get more maruaders and medivacs than ghosts unless you're facing hts and sentries.
Also I think ghosts need the extra range vs zerg. Ghosts are very difficult to use vs infestors as is, because the zerg army on creep is so fast and has so much vision its almost impossible to sneak a ghost past to EMP without getting surrounded by lings/broodlings. Contrast this with the slow balling protoss, against which ghosts are so effective. If anything you want to help balance TvP and ZvP HT might get range increase for feedback to 10.
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