EPT[Show] Inside The Game - Official Thread - Page 87
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Icekommander
Canada483 Posts
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Siniyas
Germany66 Posts
On August 11 2011 12:52 Icekommander wrote: Now I would like to ask a question in regards to Zerg's defence against BFH. Why don't Zerg's just build a nydus network, and stick a worm next to each mineral line? Then as soon Hellions show up, all the drones flee into the nydus until muta's or lings show up to clean it up, instead of having those drone's running around willy nilly. Now obviously it wouldn't work against BFH rushes Boxer style, because you wouldn't have the minerals and gas to set it up that early. But it would greatly help in the later game, when Zerg has four bases, and muta's can only defend one. Why not research drop instead which costs significantly less and gives you the possibilty to do drops yourself. | ||
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stormchaser
Canada1009 Posts
On August 11 2011 12:52 Icekommander wrote: Now I would like to ask a question in regards to Zerg's defence against BFH. Why don't Zerg's just build a nydus network, and stick a worm next to each mineral line? Then as soon Hellions show up, all the drones flee into the nydus until muta's or lings show up to clean it up, instead of having those drone's running around willy nilly. Now obviously it wouldn't work against BFH rushes Boxer style, because you wouldn't have the minerals and gas to set it up that early. But it would greatly help in the later game, when Zerg has four bases, and muta's can only defend one. Huh getting a nydus network just for hellion harass sounds ridiculous. O-o And hellions are barely a problem when Zerg is on 4 base, at that point it would be easy to connect bases with creep and put a few spines next to each mineral field. | ||
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lunchforthesky
United Kingdom967 Posts
On August 11 2011 12:52 Icekommander wrote: Now I would like to ask a question in regards to Zerg's defence against BFH. Why don't Zerg's just build a nydus network, and stick a worm next to each mineral line? Then as soon Hellions show up, all the drones flee into the nydus until muta's or lings show up to clean it up, instead of having those drone's running around willy nilly. Now obviously it wouldn't work against BFH rushes Boxer style, because you wouldn't have the minerals and gas to set it up that early. But it would greatly help in the later game, when Zerg has four bases, and muta's can only defend one. Is this a serious question? 95% of blue flame helions come pre-lair, nevermind pre the phase when you have money to throw around nydus networks. You do realise that Nydas exit points aren't free right? If they get mech in late game we're happy as hell because roaches and neural parasite owns mech no problem. | ||
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Icekommander
Canada483 Posts
@Stormchaser: Nydus wouldn't have to just be for hellion harass. And on a map like Typhon peaks, where your fourth is way far away from your original three bases, your units just won't get there fast enough. And how many spines are you going to place? A worm is cheaper than four spinecrawlers/ @Lunchforthesky: You watch Catz vs Thorzain in EGMC? Thorzain was hellion dropping all game, part of the reason why Catz never got the north and south bases saturated - they would just get cleared out with hellions every so often. And you realise that losing eight drones (or eighteen drones) isn't free either right? IdrA himself was complaining that part of the BFH problem wasn't just that it is hard to stop - the problem is the Terran can try three/four/five times, and only one of them has to truly succeed to make them all worthwhile. Yes you still need to defend normally the first three attacks, but then when four and five come (and if you are letting hellion attacks four/five come before you have muta's/infestors out, you are doing something wrong), the hellion's effectiveness is limited. And then the worms can be used brood-war style to move your armies around much quicker. Marine drop instead of hellions? Move eight roaches to that expansion. Terran trying out outmanoeuvre your army by attacking your fourth? Get half your army through the worm for a pincer attack. Guys like this are already putting the worms in place. This just extends their usefulness. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
I know I shouldn't expect any different from Idra, but what shocks me is that Painuser talking out of his ass. And his argument is something along the lines of "Well I've casted a lot of PvZ games and that Voidray Collossus deathball is hard to stop." First of all, is Painuser aware that the meta gmae has changed drastically in the past month and a half and that few players even go that anymore. And furthermore PAINUSER PLAYS NEITHER P NOR Z. I still like Painuser, but he really should have just kept his ass shut on that topic. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On August 11 2011 12:21 Disquiet wrote: Storm is better than EMP but as you're a protoss player I can see how you might think that way. EMP is really only gotten to stop storm and sentries because they are so powerful. On its own its not that good, and if storm didn't exist you'd never see ghosts except when facing silly strategies such as mass immortals archons or sentries. In most cases its more cost effective to just get more maruaders and medivacs than ghosts unless you're facing hts and sentries. Also I think ghosts need the extra range vs zerg. Ghosts are very difficult to use vs infestors as is, because the zerg army on creep is so fast and has so much vision its almost impossible to sneak a ghost past to EMP without getting surrounded by lings/broodlings. Contrast this with the slow balling protoss, against which ghosts are so effective. If anything you want to help balance TvP and ZvP HT might get range increase for feedback to 10. Er, is that a joke? EMP is not gotten ust to stop storm and sentries. It instantly deals 100 damage to shields in a wide radius as well, whereas storm does 80 damage over time. People like Thorzain get like 10-15 in the late game and just carpet EMP the protoss army three times. | ||
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BoBiNoU
France181 Posts
This was very annoying to watch. | ||
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ETisME
12864 Posts
On August 12 2011 19:07 BoBiNoU wrote: That PvZ discussion got me really upset.Another great intervention of INcontrol (<3) with facts and reasonable arguments just shut down by Idra's set of mind "protoss players are stupid lololol". This was very annoying to watch. reasonable arguments, you mean like infestors should be in hive tech? lol IdrA said it harshly, painuser restated it in more correct ways. protoss is just complaining because now that their usual deathball style are known how to be defeated easier and they have yet to find a way to counter that. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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KvltMan
Sweden1609 Posts
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MrSexington
United States1768 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:31 KvltMan wrote: This is going to interesting, but is the show cancelled due to wheat's illnesses? It's still on "upcoming events" on the right and despite Wheat's illness, he still was able to have Kings of Tin and cast the EG Master's Cup. So I'm going to say that the show is still on until they say otherwise. | ||
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opm1s6
United States42 Posts
On August 11 2011 03:07 Cyrak wrote: Everyone who actually plays Protoss at a decently high level knows that that is 100% unadulterated bullshit. 1. No basis for this at all other than Idra's word. 2. Watch Morrow vs. Huk or Puzzle, this is bullshit. 3. Infestors and baneling drops both allow Zerg to fight evenly with if not outright crush the so-called "deathball". 4. Good one! Which is why I think he said that protoss players aren't playing the match-up properly and need to stop complaining about the infestor if they don't use templar. On August 12 2011 19:07 BoBiNoU wrote: That PvZ discussion got me really upset.Another great intervention of INcontrol (<3) with facts and reasonable arguments just shut down by Idra's set of mind "protoss players are stupid lololol". This was very annoying to watch. Right as if trying to use Destiny vs. Huk was a valid way to proving Idra wrong. *rolleyes* While I don't completely agree/disagree with Idra (particularly the way he words things) it's not far fetched to consider that protoss players aren't using templar enough to counter infestors or reacting enough to the numbers of infestors that are being invested in. The counter claim that infestors are op and broken is just as ridiculous as Idra saying protoss is broken. The units and strategies are there, it's up to the players to be more flexible. On August 12 2011 19:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote: IdrA acts as if every protoss will play perfectly, and that zerg will never try to deny the third base. If you let protoss turtle up + tech then you deserve to lose imo If that's your stance, then don't complain if a zerg cheeses you. I'd rather lose to a failed all-in after 10 minutes then lose after 30 minutes in a game I have no chance of winning late game anyway. It often feels like if we don't hit before 15 minutes, we're just denying the inevitable and that's what has been driving the zerg reaction for the past year until we woke up one day and realized banelings are good, ultralisks are damn good, and infestors are zerg's best unit. The question for the long term is whether it matters in the face of templar and protoss air. The longer the protoss are given the less risky/sensitive their gas investment is. On August 11 2011 06:27 Teiwaz wrote: He's mad at iNcontroL because he makes him bench-pressing - also the true reason behind the red face. The sunburn is a lie. That's why IdrA's still hating on Protoss  x2...it's totally that he's making him work in teh gym! rofl | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
Er, is that a joke? EMP is not gotten ust to stop storm and sentries. It instantly deals 100 damage to shields in a wide radius as well, whereas storm does 80 damage over time. People like Thorzain get like 10-15 in the late game and just carpet EMP the protoss army three times. Marines having such low health makes storms super effective. A perfect storm on a group of marines does 1100 damage (20 marines * 55 health), and it's actually more if there are marauders mixed in because the marines die before the storm does its last 25 damage. If you hit a perfect EMP on a clump of zealots, an EMP does 900 damage (18 zealots * 50 shields), and again more damage if it's on stalkers (though they clump different so you can't hit as many). While the raw damage amount seems pretty close to the same, you have to keep in mind that the marines that got stormed are dead, whereas the zealots still have 100 hp remaining. A few key storms will completely eliminate your marine count, which is a huge chunk of the Terran army's DPS. This isn't to say that EMP is "worse" than storm, since obviously removing energy is pretty significant, but ultimately, who wins the battle still comes down to whoever gets the storm/EMP off first. I can EMP your army all I want, but if you hit two storms first and I don't have any marines, I'm gonna lose no matter what, and likewise, if I EMP all your templar and there's no storm, a gateway army will get rolled by an equivalent bio force even without EMPing the zealots and stalkers. edit: and yes I know you can "dodge" storms but even if you dodge perfectly you'll typically still lose most of your marines to a well-placed storm, the dodging is mostly to save your marauders | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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FryktSkyene
United States1327 Posts
On August 17 2011 03:01 -_- wrote: One things for sure. Inside the game was smart as hell to run before State of the Game. They always have first crack at the big stories. Can't wait. SOTG is better. Sorry it's true. But the timing is very odd. It comes on at 11:30 at night for the east coast and goes well into 1-2 am. ITG is not as good of a show, but I don't have to stay up all night to watch it. Just my take. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 17 2011 03:00 corpuscle wrote: Marines having such low health makes storms super effective. A perfect storm on a group of marines does 1100 damage (20 marines * 55 health), and it's actually more if there are marauders mixed in because the marines die before the storm does its last 25 damage. If you hit a perfect EMP on a clump of zealots, an EMP does 900 damage (18 zealots * 50 shields), and again more damage if it's on stalkers (though they clump different so you can't hit as many). While the raw damage amount seems pretty close to the same, you have to keep in mind that the marines that got stormed are dead, whereas the zealots still have 100 hp remaining. A few key storms will completely eliminate your marine count, which is a huge chunk of the Terran army's DPS. This isn't to say that EMP is "worse" than storm, since obviously removing energy is pretty significant, but ultimately, who wins the battle still comes down to whoever gets the storm/EMP off first. I can EMP your army all I want, but if you hit two storms first and I don't have any marines, I'm gonna lose no matter what, and likewise, if I EMP all your templar and there's no storm, a gateway army will get rolled by an equivalent bio force even without EMPing the zealots and stalkers. edit: and yes I know you can "dodge" storms but even if you dodge perfectly you'll typically still lose most of your marines to a well-placed storm, the dodging is mostly to save your marauders you just compared 20 marines (50minerals) to 18 zealots (100 minerals) and the damage differential is 200... IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the marines SIT under the storm (which the never do) whereas the zealots can sit, run, cry, fly, jump or shit and they are STILL hit for the full 100 shield damage. This is also pretending medivacs don't exist when you remark "the marines are dead" and the zealots are free to die to the remaining bio army! | ||
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gobrin
Canada96 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:31 happyness wrote: That PvZ discussion was unbelievable. Honestly, Protoss players are only losing because they are stupider??? What. The. Fuck. I know I shouldn't expect any different from Idra, but what shocks me is that Painuser talking out of his ass. And his argument is something along the lines of "Well I've casted a lot of PvZ games and that Voidray Collossus deathball is hard to stop." First of all, is Painuser aware that the meta gmae has changed drastically in the past month and a half and that few players even go that anymore. And furthermore PAINUSER PLAYS NEITHER P NOR Z. I still like Painuser, but he really should have just kept his ass shut on that topic. My favorite part was how Painuser was saying Protoss should just turtle 24/7. Uh, what? I think we all are aware of what happens when you apply 0 pressure to a Z. | ||
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