On August 17 2011 03:01 -_- wrote: One things for sure. Inside the game was smart as hell to run before State of the Game. They always have first crack at the big stories. Can't wait.
SOTG is better. Sorry it's true.
But the timing is very odd. It comes on at 11:30 at night for the east coast and goes well into 1-2 am. ITG is not as good of a show, but I don't have to stay up all night to watch it.
Just my take.
I agree with everything you say, except I will stay up and watch it :p
They were saying u could apply pressure without doing a coin flip build.
I do agree with idra/painuser to an extent. Rushing DT is in most cases a horrible build, yet we see it all the time in competitive play.. Have we ever seen a protoss rush DTs, do no damage and be ok?
Some in general horrible builds we fall back on - 3 gate + stargate, sometimes with pylon high ground warping in - DT rush, either 1 gate or 3 gate. Its pretty obvious in my opinion your up to something if the zerg just pokes at your army - 4gate/6gate etc
On August 17 2011 03:05 iNcontroL wrote:you just compared 20 marines (50minerals) to 18 zealots (100 minerals) and the damage differential is 200... IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the marines SIT under the storm (which the never do) whereas the zealots can sit, run, cry, fly, jump or shit and they are STILL hit for the full 100 shield damage.
This is also pretending medivacs don't exist when you remark "the marines are dead" and the zealots are free to die to the remaining bio army!
I did neglect the cost and the importance of medivacs, which was an oversight, no argument there. I guess the point I was trying to make had less to do with the raw numbers and more the fact that either ability is completely devastating in terms of damage, so it ultimately comes down to who hits first. I'm sure you could agree that if a Protoss gets a couple well-placed storms off before the EMP, he's going to win the battle if the armies are even, and vice versa with EMP.
On August 17 2011 03:05 iNcontroL wrote:you just compared 20 marines (50minerals) to 18 zealots (100 minerals) and the damage differential is 200... IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the marines SIT under the storm (which the never do) whereas the zealots can sit, run, cry, fly, jump or shit and they are STILL hit for the full 100 shield damage.
This is also pretending medivacs don't exist when you remark "the marines are dead" and the zealots are free to die to the remaining bio army!
I did neglect the cost and the importance of medivacs, which was an oversight, no argument there. I guess the point I was trying to make had less to do with the raw numbers and more the fact that either ability is completely devastating in terms of damage, so it ultimately comes down to who hits first. I'm sure you could agree that if a Protoss gets a couple well-placed storms off before the EMP, he's going to win the battle if the armies are even, and vice versa with EMP.
You're missing a few things though. Ghosts have cloak, and EMP has a longer range than storm.
On August 17 2011 03:05 iNcontroL wrote:you just compared 20 marines (50minerals) to 18 zealots (100 minerals) and the damage differential is 200... IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the marines SIT under the storm (which the never do) whereas the zealots can sit, run, cry, fly, jump or shit and they are STILL hit for the full 100 shield damage.
This is also pretending medivacs don't exist when you remark "the marines are dead" and the zealots are free to die to the remaining bio army!
I did neglect the cost and the importance of medivacs, which was an oversight, no argument there. I guess the point I was trying to make had less to do with the raw numbers and more the fact that either ability is completely devastating in terms of damage, so it ultimately comes down to who hits first. I'm sure you could agree that if a Protoss gets a couple well-placed storms off before the EMP, he's going to win the battle if the armies are even, and vice versa with EMP.
Yeah I can agree with that. But I do think the cost differential and access / utility needs mentioning.. templar are by no means bad units but giving an AOE that negates them 100% AND does AOE damage to everything else.. literally everything else is rough.
On August 17 2011 03:05 iNcontroL wrote:you just compared 20 marines (50minerals) to 18 zealots (100 minerals) and the damage differential is 200... IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the marines SIT under the storm (which the never do) whereas the zealots can sit, run, cry, fly, jump or shit and they are STILL hit for the full 100 shield damage.
This is also pretending medivacs don't exist when you remark "the marines are dead" and the zealots are free to die to the remaining bio army!
I did neglect the cost and the importance of medivacs, which was an oversight, no argument there. I guess the point I was trying to make had less to do with the raw numbers and more the fact that either ability is completely devastating in terms of damage, so it ultimately comes down to who hits first. I'm sure you could agree that if a Protoss gets a couple well-placed storms off before the EMP, he's going to win the battle if the armies are even, and vice versa with EMP.
You're missing a few things though. Ghosts have cloak, and EMP has a longer range than storm.
Also, a stormed ghost can still emp.
i dont think ghosts and templars are as simple to compare as that though ; /
the armies that back them are so completely different that even if they both do 'massive aoe damage' that doesnt produce the same affect for both sides.
imo atleast storm seems more dangerous than emp, just because its a greater %age of a units health. beyond that its not really useful to say a whole lot
Why are you always comparing HT and Ghost. Even tho they are counter to each other they are not really the same. As for storm-emp. You're also forgeting 1 big important thing = EMP doesn't kill units. It does really big damage but it doesn't kill them which is important because you lose dps when you're units are dead compared to just damaged.
Yeah I can agree with that. But I do think the cost differential and access / utility needs mentioning.. templar are by no means bad units but giving an AOE that negates them 100% AND does AOE damage to everything else.. literally everything else is rough.
Yeah, and I also neglected the range/cloak which someone else pointed out (I thought feedback and snipe had the same range, guess not)
I think ultimately the issue here is that Terran units are just better, if I had to pick between ghosts and high templar the choice is abundantly obvious and I think most people would agree with me
On August 17 2011 05:07 bLah. wrote: Why are you always comparing HT and Ghost. Even tho they are counter to each other they are not really the same. As for storm-emp. You're also forgeting 1 big important thing = EMP doesn't kill units. It does really big damage but it doesn't kill them which is important because you lose dps when you're units are dead compared to just damaged.
That would be a valid point only if EMP didn't hit at the beginning of battles. It does up 100 instant damage to all protoss units. It also eliminates the ability of that army to forcefield and run away to recharge. In TvP, EMP is both an anti-spellcaster spell and a gigantic damage dealer.
In short, EMP does more damage to protoss than storm does to terran, and does so vastly faster.
On August 12 2011 19:07 BoBiNoU wrote: That PvZ discussion got me really upset.Another great intervention of INcontrol (<3) with facts and reasonable arguments just shut down by Idra's set of mind "protoss players are stupid lololol". This was very annoying to watch.
reasonable arguments, you mean like infestors should be in hive tech? lol IdrA said it harshly, painuser restated it in more correct ways. protoss is just complaining because now that their usual deathball style are known how to be defeated easier and they have yet to find a way to counter that.
Idra said exactly the opposite. Toss should just turtle and create a death ball according to him, and what they shouldn't do is try different (all-inish) strats.
Why does being completely predictable sound like a bad thing to do in a strategy game ?
It was amusing to see Incontrol struggle between being nice and friendly and calling all-out bullshit.
Er, is that a joke? EMP is not gotten ust to stop storm and sentries. It instantly deals 100 damage to shields in a wide radius as well, whereas storm does 80 damage over time. People like Thorzain get like 10-15 in the late game and just carpet EMP the protoss army three times.
Marines having such low health makes storms super effective. A perfect storm on a group of marines does 1100 damage (20 marines * 55 health), and it's actually more if there are marauders mixed in because the marines die before the storm does its last 25 damage. If you hit a perfect EMP on a clump of zealots, an EMP does 900 damage (18 zealots * 50 shields), and again more damage if it's on stalkers (though they clump different so you can't hit as many).
While the raw damage amount seems pretty close to the same, you have to keep in mind that the marines that got stormed are dead, whereas the zealots still have 100 hp remaining. A few key storms will completely eliminate your marine count, which is a huge chunk of the Terran army's DPS.
This isn't to say that EMP is "worse" than storm, since obviously removing energy is pretty significant, but ultimately, who wins the battle still comes down to whoever gets the storm/EMP off first. I can EMP your army all I want, but if you hit two storms first and I don't have any marines, I'm gonna lose no matter what, and likewise, if I EMP all your templar and there's no storm, a gateway army will get rolled by an equivalent bio force even without EMPing the zealots and stalkers.
edit: and yes I know you can "dodge" storms but even if you dodge perfectly you'll typically still lose most of your marines to a well-placed storm, the dodging is mostly to save your marauders
you just compared 20 marines (50minerals) to 18 zealots (100 minerals) and the damage differential is 200... IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF the marines SIT under the storm (which the never do) whereas the zealots can sit, run, cry, fly, jump or shit and they are STILL hit for the full 100 shield damage.
This is also pretending medivacs don't exist when you remark "the marines are dead" and the zealots are free to die to the remaining bio army!
god damn all those zealots taking 100 shield damage :D
I just hope Wheat for once takes off his EG-glasses but I guess he wont since he is close with Scoots. So I can understand that. Nonetheless, interesting what he is going to say.
EPT
