[Show] Inside The Game - Official Thread - Page 81

On August 10 2011 10:31 Canucklehead wrote:


Idra admitted to only playing like 3 hours a day since leaving korea. Now that might have changed with the team house, but those were his hours said previously on an episode of ITG.

On August 10 2011 10:19 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
quiet noise makes very good points here.

To expand on this, and in particular the iNcontroL vs IdrA debate. I iNcontroL's main fustration is that when IdrA was bitching about Protoss being OP and in particular the death ball - instead of coming up with something creative or different, he would just continously bitch and shout imbalance. And now that the converse is true, instead of bitching, iNcontroL is calling for Protoss to come up with better ideas, and IdrA is just calling Protoss players stupid and allinish. Seriously? Talk about double standards. I am an IdrA fan but I wish he would grow up a bit sometimes. The protoss players are some of the cleverest and most creative.

IdrA also complains about late game. I think Zerg have one of the BEST late games. Ever heard of Broodlord Infestor mate? You can demolish a 200 Protoss army even if you are 120 food.

Also just a quick examination of the ghost:
Cost:
Ghost - 200min 100gas
Infester - 100min 150 gas
HT - 100min 150 gas
Why is the ghost the only one that costs less gas?

Abilities
EMP - RANGE 10, drains 100 shield INSTANTLY, drains 100 energy, decloaks units, 75 energy.
Fungal - Range 9, 38ish damage garenteed, decloaks units, snares, 75 energy.
Storm - Range 9, 80 damange max, doesn't decloak units, 75 energy.
Snipe - RANGE 10; Neural - Range 9; Feedback - Range 9
Why does the ghost have extra range on all its abilities?! They took away the amulet, so HT is the only caster that can't cast the 2nd tier spell straight away. Storm is actually the worst of the 3 abilities IMO as it is. On top of this the other abilities of the casters are much better (cloak, snipe and fungal, burrow, infested terran).

Helllions are insanely good, do huge damage for minimal investment. Baneling and infestor drops are insanely good.

It is way way too early to start shouting imbalance, but I wish the IdrA stop moaning constantly about everything.

On August 10 2011 10:40 butchji wrote:



As a Terran player I would love the Ghost costing less minerals and more gas. We don't have any units (besides Raven) where we can dump gas on (such as sentry).

Imo it would help the Terran. (I very often see top terran players hovering around 1.5k gas while having no minerals - same as zergs have many minerals and no gas)

On August 10 2011 10:43 Xahhk wrote:


Templar don't get energy right away and the other casters do that's true... but that doesn't necessarily make it somehow worse off than other casters, atleast on the ability to cast the 2nd spell.

You make the templar and you wait 45 game seconds exactly for storm to be ready, which is the amount of time it takes for the other casters to get produced from their buildings.

On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:

I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.

On August 10 2011 10:43 quiet noise wrote:
A big part of the problem is that Terran and Zerg can do macro builds and at the same time do economic harrasment through baneling drops or hellion drops.

Protoss cant really do that, except for DTs wich is more of a coinflip build wich means idra will call you a cheesing retard.

and dont say warp prism. untill we ge a unit that is actually useful for economic harrasment, the warp prism is useles for harrasment purposes.

On August 10 2011 10:46 Kajarn wrote:
I thinks its very entertaining to see the pro players point of views and fears.

Idra is more scared of the Macro Protoss player because he never knows when he is going to attack. He scoffs at the DT/Void Ray rusher because he knows the exact timing and laughs in the DT or Void rays face. He proceeds to drone in safety vs the cheeser but never know how many drones to make vs the Macro player.


InControl is deathly scared of the Imba Zerg economy. He feels safer knowing his Void Ray or DT build will do some damage, and slow down the Zerg. He is scared Zerg will run away farming drones into the unstoppable continuous swarm. He feels he has to constantly keep the Zerg in check with these DT and Void Ray builds otherwise Zerg is too uncontrollable.




Maybe the secret to PvZ is flipping the match up around. Instead of Zerg reacting to Protoss's aggression and attempts at harrassment. Why not force the Zerg to be the aggressor?
Take expansion aggressively as Protoss and slowly build up the "death ball."
Still afraid of the over droning Zerg? Mix in shark mode or scouted timing attacks.

I feel PvZ is vastly unexplored and one-dimensional. Protoss have now fallen in the Terran rut of diffrent all-ins.

On August 10 2011 10:50 Yew wrote:

This is the no.1 thing protoss needs imo. Our harass is very very limited. DT's get shut down by turrets or spores. Stargate units get shut down by marines/turrets or hydras/spores. Warp prisms are weak as hell, plus all you can get with them are gateway units. Zealots and stalkers don't do near as much damage as stimmed bio, or even zerglings or roaches in overlords. If protoss tries to macro up to maxed, you cannot put any pressure on, unlike zerg or terran. This is why you see many of the all ins idra and incontrol were talking about, because they cannot pressure the other races with harassment.

On August 10 2011 10:54 Ender.Wiggin wrote:
Just to put some balance on this, and so to make sure I am not coming across as one sided. I think that the hardest style of Protoss to play against atm is the hard macro, large gateway play. Constant pressure while expanding and out macroing your opponent. Huk does this agressive style very well - FAR FAR away from the turtle style IdrA clains he plays.

On August 10 2011 10:49 quiet noise wrote:


the thing is, protoss IS one dimensional. you are either going for a big all in timing push, or you sit back and turtle. Either way you will be frowned upon by people like idra.

It comes down to the fact that protoss has no good harrasment tools.

On August 10 2011 11:02 Kajarn wrote:


Who said a timing push had to be all-in?

Why not play shark mode/macro where your decision of when to attack is reactionary?

You move your gateway army half way up the map, hallucinate a Phoenix, scout the Zerg.

You see small Zerg army and spines half way done. You warp in another round of stalkers at the pylon next to your army and go win.
Or
You see a prepared Zerg army with spines up and instead of warp more units in drop a nexus at your next expansion, but still poke forward only to retreat after your first force fields fall.


Suddenly, the units you just forced Zerg to make aren't drones, and maybe you had a chance to win if the Zerg wasn't prepared. No coin flip, no one-dimmesional play.

On August 10 2011 11:05 quiet noise wrote:


that style used to work until fungual growth was buffed and infestors were brought into play. They touched on this on tonights episode, Infestors just rape midgame protoss wich is what forces toss players into this turtle macro style. This is why infestors are considered broken, and no meta-game shift is going to change things.

On August 10 2011 11:13 Kajarn wrote:


Ok I get infestors lock your army in place and fungal does a lot of damage, but I still don't see how this stops the passive aggressive style.


The Infestor doesn't grant Zerg instant map control. It not threatening to ruin your mineral lines like a pack of Mutalisks.

On August 10 2011 09:58 Bagi wrote:

Engaging in balance discussion makes you a great thinker, who'd have known.

However, your usage of the word "vent" is quite appropriate. Thats exactly what balance discussion tends to be, biased people venting their frustration. Which is just one of the reason why its frowned upon in this forum.

On August 10 2011 10:45 Ender.Wiggin wrote:


It takes 45 seconds after a warp in of HT for the warpgate to be useful again, and it takes 5 seconds for the HT to actually warp in. That's at least 45sec between warp ins, and 50 seconds to get a HT after a previous one. Terran and Zerg forget that warpgates don't actually save you much time.

On August 10 2011 11:19 quiet noise wrote:


because of infestors you cant pressure zerg, because you know and he knows that he would simply rape your army if you tried to attack him. do you understand now?

On August 10 2011 11:25 Kajarn wrote:


Infestors dont own the ZvP midgame.

First, some Zerg players don't make Infestors until 3 bases are saturated. See Nestea/Losira.

Second, assuming the Destiny maximum abuse of Infestors style, his army isn't completly invincible at the midgame. Try Zealot-Archon vs his 6 Infestor/Ling timing attack.
OR
Take a third before the Zerg. Infestor-Ling cant hold a 3rd against gate-way timings, so take your own and hold it.