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On May 02 2011 23:54 Let it Raine wrote:
I wonder. Is it fair to say that korean protosses are generally terrible? That's the feeling I get from watching them but maybe I'm trying too hard to say zerg up.
Just when I watch a top 8 code s player like anypro pylon his nexus first, pull half his probes to kill it and then push out with only gateway units vs burrow roaches, I kind of have to wonder. (of course, he still won that series with 2 very skill less builds, the first of which he won even though he had 0 micro on the void ray, which was the focus of the entire build.)
It's certainly interesting to see regardless, and I'm surprised at terrans overall success.
This was my thought on the matter, Korean protosses have always been lacking (See GSL 1 and 2) and the only reason people think otherwise is people like MC and San playing really well. But other than those Korea has very few top protosses. Internationally on the other hand we have people like Cruncher coming out of nowhere and taking games of the best to cries of 'IMBA!'.
I dunno, just feels like Korea doesn't know how to play protoss compared to foreigners, only other explanation is that they're on a higher level Z and T and P really is underpowered....
LOL
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On May 03 2011 00:07 K3Nyy wrote:
Interesting.. it's funny that MVP says terran is the weakest but every statistic proves him wrong.
Zerg looks underpowered though and protoss aren't doing as well as everyone makes it sound.
MVP is talking about GSL maps. These stats include ALOT of stuff on the non-GSL small maps.
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Hmm, seems Protoss is having a hard time recently in Korea.
And for all those who say "XvX Matchup is Imba!", look at the International stats. They are currently all pretty much at 50%w/L ratio. So shut up, this game isn't Imba in any way shape or form at this time.
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Conclusion - Blizzard needs to just let the game develop much, much longer in between new balance patches.
For example, this latest patch to deal with PvP...PvP is already being dealt with. We don't need a patch to fix it, it won't stay this way forever and has been evolving consistently, it just needs to be left alone. Everything needs to be left alone, let the players overcome the perceived imbalances and Blizzard can work on making SC2 better in terms of bnet features.
Blizzard comes to bail out the ones crying imbalance so early that there will never be an end to it. Zergs are starting to take the advantage in ZvP matchup when they were the ones saying how hard it is, new styles are coming that are really hard for P to play against without having to adapt. That's how it should be.
Think about the PvZ matchup in particular, Zerg's have, up until recently, been playing the same style of ZvP since...hell since the release of SC2 it seems. Protoss, in my opinion, at the start of sc2 release was the weakest race for a while. Protoss players have changed their play though and took the front stage for the imbalance cries but now Zerg's are changing their styles and learning new builds and timings which completely change the MU. You don't need a balance patch for that.
Unless you let the players overcome the struggles they're having today we'll never get a balanced game. IMO leave the balance patches alone for like a year and see what happens. There is no way to determine how to properly balance the game when you only give a couple months in between the patches. If you waited like a year to release a new balance patch the game would be much more defined and you could get a much more proper view on what needs to actually be changed but by constantly giving in to the imbalance cries and releasing a balance patch needs to stop.
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I think these stats completely prove the point that all the races at the moment are very balanced
So dont listen to anyone who talks about inbalance
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The korean chart could almost be a continuation of the NA/EU chart :D
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Wow, Protoss is totally shit in Korea right now, wat?
User was warned for this post
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Honestly I think foreigners use better strategies and have better builds than Koreans. Jinro and Thorzain come to mind as examples. IdrA for Zerg; Tyler for Protoss.
All these players are playing smart. Koreans understand the flow of battles and have incredible multitasking but they are all doing shitty tactics right now. Koreans do a ton of all ins.
I feel like the Terran dominance is because of all ins in Korea. I always hear Artosis say something like "theres this new build on ladder in Korea right now, banshee/tank/marine... whatever" and it's always some kind of all in. Terran all ins are the most powerful simply because they can tech the fastest, so they can successfully one base to any unit. I may be wrong here, so don't flame too hard, but that's what I think.
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On May 03 2011 00:10 TipsyWhirl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:54 Let it Raine wrote:
I wonder. Is it fair to say that korean protosses are generally terrible? That's the feeling I get from watching them but maybe I'm trying too hard to say zerg up.
Just when I watch a top 8 code s player like anypro pylon his nexus first, pull half his probes to kill it and then push out with only gateway units vs burrow roaches, I kind of have to wonder. (of course, he still won that series with 2 very skill less builds, the first of which he won even though he had 0 micro on the void ray, which was the focus of the entire build.)
It's certainly interesting to see regardless, and I'm surprised at terrans overall success. This was my thought on the matter, Korean protosses have always been lacking (See GSL 1 and 2) and the only reason people think otherwise is people like MC and San playing really well. But other than those Korea has very few top protosses. Internationally on the other hand we have people like Cruncher coming out of nowhere and taking games of the best to cries of 'IMBA!'. I dunno, just feels like Korea doesn't know how to play protoss compared to foreigners, only other explanation is that they're on a higher level Z and T and P really is underpowered.... LOL
That's because the korean metagame is just shifting constantly; therefore it's unstable. These players practice very hard, compared to foreigners, and don't hesitate to use new & creative builds. I believe it can be very hard to adapt to this kind of metagame. On the contrary, I feel that foreign players' playstyle is more standard and predictable. Looks like they just follow the trend instead of setting it. I mean, expect for White-ra's Warp prism tactics, I haven't seen anything truly insane coming from foreigners.
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On May 03 2011 00:14 Overpowered wrote:
Wow, Protoss is totally shit in Korea right now, wat?
It doesn't even make sense, this month 80% of the GSL protoss were knocked out by terrans... Which benefit from the storm nerf I guess.
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On May 03 2011 00:11 57 Corvette wrote:
Hmm, seems Protoss is having a hard time recently in Korea.
And for all those who say "XvX Matchup is Imba!", look at the International stats. They are currently all pretty much at 50%w/L ratio. So shut up, this game isn't Imba in any way shape or form at this time.
The problem with these statistics is that they take neither the different maps nor the the difference in playskill into account, which, at least in my opinion, is much bigger in the foreign scene than in the GSL. So a matchup might look "more balanced" than it actually is due to a few top players beating worse players over and over.
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this is a great post thank you for this. the international graph is an awesome thing to see. hopefully people will stop whining about imbaness now. though that has gotten better as of late.
stats like these are very encouraging. and they correlate well with my personal games. its interesting how new styles are being developed so rapidly and these graphs show that beautifully. it will be interesting to see how these wavy lines continue to sway. =)
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Interesting. International games start out with large imbalances in November and converge to almost perfect balance in April, while it's just the other way round in Korea. How come? Can someone explain this?
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On May 03 2011 00:18 Scorch wrote:
Interesting. International games start out with large imbalances in November and converge to almost perfect balance in April, while it's just the other way round in Korea. How come? Can someone explain this?
GSL is once a month.
Players like MVP and MC can own one month and be out in the first round the next, skewing results.
Extremely small sample size per month will have wide variations.
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i think now that game i whatch saw :
protoss=>terran<=zerg<=protoss...
how i see it is :
protoss > terran late game.
protoss >zerg late game
terran > toss early TvP=mid game
terran >=zerg early mid game
zerg >=toss early mid game
zerg > terran late game
zerg spanishiva show i think that zergligns are great early game ..also after sviching to banglings drops or mutas is also efective erly mid game...plenty of toher exemples there is but this one is ok two 
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interesting results. i hope this will shut people who still think protoss is (too) good up.
i find it funny how terrans have always been arguing their race is balanced when they were winning almost 60% internationally at one point, wow. pretty delusional.
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Not that I neccesarily agree/think that the statistics represent true balance I'm having a blast reading comments from zerg players trying to find reasons for protoss being overpowered/zerg being underpowered.
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The issue with Korean Toss is that they got complacent. So many lose games early due to over-teching or over-expanding. The balance is too close for you to do that when your opponent is about to hit with a timing attack and still win.
That skews the results so much because there are so few Korean Toss. So 2 of them do bad for 4 games total (San, MC)... and the whole representation gets thrown off massively.
Toss just isn't strong enough any more to ignore what the other race is doing and still win.
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In Korea:
Protoss has MC and maybee San and Alicia.
Zerg has Nestea, Losira and July.
Terran has MVP, MKP, MMA, Ryung, Bomber, NaDa, Keen!, Supernova, SC, Top, Boxer (kinda), Jinro, Cliiiiiiiiide and Hyperdub (no denying this).
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protoss >zerg late game
Depends how you define late game. Broodlord/Infestor late game is about as strong, if not stronger than the vast majority of Protoss deathballs.
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EPT
