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Calgary26004 Posts
On May 01 2011 03:16 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 03:03 hmunkey wrote:On May 01 2011 02:08 GreEny K wrote:On May 01 2011 02:04 chaoser wrote:On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote:
How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit? That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit... First off, what makes you think that he would stick with terran? Maybe he would like the zerg play style more. Secondly, the game has definitely not reached its limit... It has only been out for a year, BW is still changing and it's a 12 year old game. Of course not, but BW and SC2 are entirely different games. People going into SC2 already had the accumlated knowledge of BW and SC2 undoubtedly has a lower skill ceiling. Yeah, we haven't seen every strategy yet, but it won't take anywhere near 12 years before the game is figured out. The metagame only needs to last until the next expansion pack.
It's impossible to patch the metagame, unless Blizzard adds some mechanic that can be abused outside the game, like requiring players to sing while playing. Then you could gain an advantage through the metagame by typing to distract their singing. Until then, the metagame will remain the same throughout patches.
Edit: I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You could patch the strength and frequency of strategies and tactics used in playing the metagame. Let's assume that's what you meant.
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Here is a good example of meta game.
The metagame I utilized to defeat both chill and kennigit 2vs1 is to make chill think Kennigit has air control by showing kennigit half my mutas. So that Chill will keep making nothing but colossus till he max out. then I crush Kennigit with everything i got and created and scenario where I have overwhelming mutas left over and Kenngit is out of army while Chill has nothing that shoots air.
the key on metagame is playing the player, not just the game.
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On May 02 2011 17:08 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 14:31 Doodsmack wrote:On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote:
Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future. You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea: 1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time. 2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs. 3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games. 4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year. If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh. Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
Hate to break it to you, but nothing you said indicates to me that you have the power to predict the future. Flash would be the #1 player in SC2 after one month? What's your evidence for saying one month, rather than two or three (or more)? Have you looked at how much playing it took the "former BW progaming scrubs" to come to "dominate" SC2? By the way, it's funny you say they dominate, because I could have sworn one is in code A and the other got knocked out in the round of 32 (read: SC2 is volatile).
It's all well and good to think that Flash and other top BW players would become great in SC2, but you don't know how quickly they might be able to do it because none of them have transferred yet. Until then, you'll just be pretending to be able to predict the future.
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Oh God this thread was so terrible until Chill came in. Now it's hilarious.
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Why post when you only have part 1 :X I wanted to see it all in one go 
On May 03 2011 07:14 Indrium wrote:
Oh God this thread was so terrible until Chill came in. Now it's hilarious.
Hahaha so true, <3 Chill
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Respect the ultimate weapon.
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On May 03 2011 06:12 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 17:08 maybenexttime wrote:On May 02 2011 14:31 Doodsmack wrote:On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote:
Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future. You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea: 1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time. 2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs. 3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games. 4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year. If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh. Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene. Hate to break it to you, but nothing you said indicates to me that you have the power to predict the future. Flash would be the #1 player in SC2 after one month? What's your evidence for saying one month, rather than two or three (or more)? Have you looked at how much playing it took the "former BW progaming scrubs" to come to "dominate" SC2? By the way, it's funny you say they dominate, because I could have sworn one is in code A and the other got knocked out in the round of 32 (read: SC2 is volatile). It's all well and good to think that Flash and other top BW players would become great in SC2, but you don't know how quickly they might be able to do it because none of them have transferred yet. Until then, you'll just be pretending to be able to predict the future.
Mine is an educated guess and yours is an educated guess. The difference is, I assume, I have more insight since anyone who has followed BW for some time will agree that Flash would easily become one of the best SC2 players in a short amount of time.
I also never claimed he'd be #1, so don't put words in my mouth, please.
You've mentioned two of the players who switched from BW. Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that roughly the top20 (or at least top10) SC2 players in Korea are former BW progamers or were you simply unaware of this? That's domination in my book.
Like I said, it took Flash one month to become a progamer from a rookie. Currently he's the best RTS player in the world. Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion. Becoming a progamer in BW is harder than qualifying for Code S, but I guess you won't take my word for it. Whatever.
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Keep fighting the good fight, Chill
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if chill wants to win this fight, he's going to have to change the metagame.
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The best can easily be measured by their salaraies. Just saying.
Ok, Chill, having the biggest salary in the series. Does that have an advantage to the metagame??
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:14 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 06:12 Doodsmack wrote:On May 02 2011 17:08 maybenexttime wrote:On May 02 2011 14:31 Doodsmack wrote:On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote:
Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future. You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea: 1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time. 2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs. 3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games. 4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year. If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh. Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene. Hate to break it to you, but nothing you said indicates to me that you have the power to predict the future. Flash would be the #1 player in SC2 after one month? What's your evidence for saying one month, rather than two or three (or more)? Have you looked at how much playing it took the "former BW progaming scrubs" to come to "dominate" SC2? By the way, it's funny you say they dominate, because I could have sworn one is in code A and the other got knocked out in the round of 32 (read: SC2 is volatile). It's all well and good to think that Flash and other top BW players would become great in SC2, but you don't know how quickly they might be able to do it because none of them have transferred yet. Until then, you'll just be pretending to be able to predict the future. Mine is an educated guess and yours is an educated guess. The difference is, I assume, I have more insight since anyone who has followed BW for some time will agree that Flash would easily become one of the best SC2 players in a short amount of time. I also never claimed he'd be #1, so don't put words in my mouth, please. You've mentioned two of the players who switched from BW. Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that roughly the top20 (or at least top10) SC2 players in Korea are former BW progamers or were you simply unaware of this? That's domination in my book. Like I said, it took Flash one month to become a progamer from a rookie. Currently he's the best RTS player in the world. Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion. Becoming a progamer in BW is harder than qualifying for Code S, but I guess you won't take my word for it. Whatever.
you have it spot on. i am currently writing an article on this, probably will post it in the next week or so.
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On May 03 2011 17:14 maybenexttime wrote:
Like I said, it took Flash one month to become a progamer from a rookie. Currently he's the best RTS player in the world. Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion. Becoming a progamer in BW is harder than qualifying for Code S, but I guess you won't take my word for it. Whatever.
I don't know how else to say it, but you just don't know the timing. I appreciate that Flash is an extremely talented player, and that you are knowledgable about BW progaming. SC2 is not BW, though. The winner of one GSL season might get knocked out by baneling busts in the round of 32 in the next season.
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Flash isn't human. The way he learns a skill is fundamentally better than other players. He would learn the game faster than anyone has been able to so far. He has played easily 10,000+ hours of broodwar and you still see him with a god-damn ruler measuring the placement of his keyboard before a match.
His ability to be methodical about his play is beyond anyone currently playing SC or SC2.
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How is it possible to argue for experience for an 18-year old player, when transitioning to another game in comparison to say NaDa and JulyZerg? Sorry, I am a rookie in the Starcraft world, but this doesn't make much sense to me.
Can someone help me understand this argument?
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On May 05 2011 14:31 Dracolich70 wrote:
How is it possible to argue for experience for an 18-year old player, when transitioning to another game in comparison to say NaDa and JulyZerg? Sorry, I am a rookie in the Starcraft world, but this doesn't make much sense to me.
Can someone help me understand this argument?
Flash is worlds ahead in skill compared to Nada and July. His raw talent in sc1 leads many to believe he will be an unstoppable force when he switches to sc2.
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On May 05 2011 15:44 rysecake wrote:Flash is worlds ahead in skill compared to Nada and July. His raw talent in sc1 leads many to believe he will be an unstoppable force when he switches to sc2. Thanks for your answer. I understand that many Flash fans feel this way, and going by what he has shown in sc1 speak very highly for him in terms of raw skill.
But my main issue was more from this statement "Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion."
His experience is not greater than those two, nor his experience in handling adversity, which a transition would require, imo. Both NaDa and JulyZerg has shown this in both sc1 and sc2. The claim is that he should surpass those players in a mere month, simply because he is more skilled in BWs. The others have played SC 2 for some time now, and has practiced just as hard as Flash in BW.
It's not a perfect analogy, but to me it seems like saying that a super talented boxer would transition better to a higher division, than say one of more experience, but lesser current raw skill did. I might be a rookie in Starcraft universe, but I know boxing, and it isn't so. Some can do it, others can't - regardless of skill set. This being said, I believe that being a great BW player will help Flash a lot. Starcraft 2 is still a slightly different game, and suits some better than it did BW. Ie Nestea, while others more successful/skilled than he in BW hasn't coped as well as he has in SC 2.
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After reading this thread it was pretty much exactly what I expected. Anyone that is remotely knowledgeable of Brood War and RTS in general will completely agree that Flash would destroy everyone in SC2 in a very small amount of time. The people who have never watched Brood War, and typically have under 100 posts are all saying he wouldn't. Does this surprise anyone, lol?
For example, Dracholich... Nestea is having success in SC2 and not Brood War because the people who mopped the floor with him in BW haven't changed over. It's not that Nestea magically rediscovered the RTS genre, he is up against lesser competition, so he is thriving... like the rest of the top 20 Sc2 players. They were mediocre at best (mostly terrible) players at Brood War, but that puts them leaps and bounds ahead of just about everyone in the RTS scene.
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On May 05 2011 16:30 Pufftrees wrote:
After reading this thread it was pretty much exactly what I expected. Anyone that is remotely knowledgeable of Brood War and RTS in general will completely agree that Flash would destroy everyone in SC2 in a very small amount of time. The people who have never watched Brood War, and typically have under 100 posts are all saying he wouldn't. Does this surprise anyone, lol? Nor does your reply come as a surprise playing the "Those who agree with me are knowledgable and objective" card. Having seem 1000s of BW games, and posted 100+ doesn't make you enable you with the gift of foresight to the letter on how well or how fast Flash(or any other top BW player for that matter) would transition. There is a chance it even blinds you from objectivity, because you are a big follower of BW and Flash.
Tbh it doesn't sound very experienced to think that a player with a months practice would surpass others who has played for 7+ months nonstop, and has more experience in BW than Flash - like NaDa, just because he is more skilled in BW. Just following in Starcraft 2 scene shows how much better each become each passing month. Him being the currrently best BW player doesn't qualify him as being the best Starcraft 2 player in itself. Nor did I anywhere state that he wouldn't be able to at some point, nor did the other guy, doodsmack,
For example, Dracholich... Nestea is having success in SC2 and not Brood War because the people who mopped the floor with him in BW haven't changed over. It's not that Nestea magically rediscovered the RTS genre, he is up against lesser competition, so he is thriving... like the rest of the top 20 Sc2 players. They were mediocre at best (mostly terrible) players at Brood War, but that puts them leaps and bounds ahead of just about everyone in the RTS scene. To my knowledge there are people who were more successful in BW than Nestea, who fares worse than he.
Furthermore, I find it a bit narrow minded argument saying that he just looks good because the best current BWs players hasn't made the change yet. There could be just as talented people as Flash starting in SC 2, like when he started BW. We do know that there currently are more accomblished BWs players who fares worse than he, nor surpasses him on that account. Nor is it all who has transitioned equally from Warcraft III to Starcraft 2, ie FoxMoon and FoxLyn, where the latter has been more succesful. But whatever fits your argument. I searched some objective answers, and found a well mannered one, as well as a fanbois condescending response. Thank you none-the-less for taking the time to reply.
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On May 05 2011 16:19 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 15:44 rysecake wrote:Flash is worlds ahead in skill compared to Nada and July. His raw talent in sc1 leads many to believe he will be an unstoppable force when he switches to sc2. This being said, I believe that being a great BW player will help Flash a lot. Starcraft 2 is still a slightly different game, and suits some better than it did BW. Ie Nestea, while others more successful/skilled than he in BW hasn't coped as well as he has in SC 2.
the thing is flash is not really known for mechanics or multitasking (which matter less or are easier in sc2) but in decision making and super sense like detecting cheese or expansions and responding properly. those things seem to matter more in sc2. so not only does he have the practice regimen, he has the talent for specifically sc2.
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Not surprised by MCs words, Flash is a genius player and if he used the same dedication on SC2 there is no doubt that he would be very good if not the best.
SC2 is inherently easier in the core mechanics than SC1 so it would be harder to completely dominate SC2 in the way it was done in SC1 because of the smaller skillgap between the pros.
SC2 focuses more on crisp decision making, whereas SC1 had huge demands to everything else before decision making became the major factor.
Thats how I see it.
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EPT
