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On May 02 2011 22:42 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 22 RvB wrote:On May 02 2011 22:07 Blasphemi wrote:[B]On May 02 2011 21 On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2. However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2. Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL. So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different. No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game. Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
Possibly not with minimal effort, but what makes Flash and Jaedong so beastly is also their work ethic in addition to their talent.
It took one month of hard practice for Flash to get a progaming license, which is HUGE deal considering how difficult it is for other players when going from amateur to pro in the Korean BW scene. With that kind of work ethic, Flash would easily become competitive within a short time.
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On May 02 2011 18:54 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 17:34 Keone wrote:On May 02 2011 08:00 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote:
its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time. ... From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game. Besides did you forget the time he played baseball? The proper analogy would be: It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that. It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
That's.... that's brilliant, actually.
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Well, obviously Flash and Jaedong couldn't just sit down and obliterate MC and MVP like nothing. They'd at least need some time to read up on the game and get used to it. I would, however, count on that they'd reach the current top of the SC2 scene faster than anyone else have so far.
Don't see that happening though. Chances are BW will outlive SC2 in Korea, and there'll never be any need for the top players to migrate. SC2 does provide an excellent alternative for those who never saw much success in BW though.
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On May 02 2011 22:42 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 22 RvB wrote:On May 02 2011 22:07 Blasphemi wrote:[B]On May 02 2011 21 On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2. However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2. Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL. So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different. No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game. Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
Those are top-level WC3 players not BW players making your argument void, as was previously stated Flash and Jaedong aren't gods JUST because of their talent, they also practice more than most other players. It's safe to assume they would be top players not long after switching.
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On May 02 2011 22:46 infinity2k9 wrote:
The WC3 progamers are not up to BW player standards. I recall one good player switching to BW and not making it out of the B-Team, on Wemade Fox although i forgot his nick.
moon?
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He mixed things up a bit. It was FreeDom (Moon's rival at the time he switched) and he was on Samsung Khan. Moon played in inside tournaments in WeMade FOX and had 20% winrate IIRC, not sure whether it was for both A and B team or just B team, though.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/48_Freedom
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On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
Lol, you look hilariously stupid.
Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean.
BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem.
I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds.
Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily.
Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW."
He wouldn't make the B-team.
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I feel it's tough to predict people's performance in a game they don't play based on their performance in another game, or other people's performances across several games.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We need to see those players come over to SC2 and have them perform. Everything else is just wild speculation coloured by fanboyism to one of the three games, depending where you came from.
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On May 02 2011 23 shucklesors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2. Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
One day you will realise arguments are won with evidence (which I have provided, at least as much as there is) rather than just saying you're right over and over and over without a shred of anything but pure speculation.
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On May 02 2011 23:57 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23 shucklesors wrote:On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2. Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team. One day you will realise arguments are won with evidence (which I have provided, at least as much as there is) rather than just saying you're right over and over and over without a shred of anything but pure speculation.
at least he is more correct than you. all you said was wc3 players suck, therefore bw players must suck too. i applaud your logic or should i say speculation?
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On May 02 2011 23:35 shucklesors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2. Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
I have to agree with this no way any sc2 pro's can even make it to b team if they switch game because sc bw demands more skills than sc2 does .
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On May 02 2011 22:34 RvB wrote:
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
No, they are not. Both are focusing fully on SC2 with Moon having spend quite a long time already. Unless he gave up. Nada, I believe, switched at around the same time as Moon and he has been much, much better and all that while focusing on school at the same time. Then again Nada is Nada.
On May 02 2011 22:42 Blasphemi wrote:
Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
Flash and Jaedong are not random top level RTSers. They are THE top level RTSers, the likes which are not found outside of BW. I would say the same with pretty much whole A-level BW.
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SC2 fanboyism vs BW fanboyism won't produce well thought arguments. Only time will show if they will switch or not. Possible reasons will include burnout, diminished financial gain, losing the dexterity and the endurance to keep up with the game, the excitement of playing a new game and being part of a much more international community.
It will also depend on whether SC2 can survive and get better as an esports throughout the world.
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On May 03 2011 00:33 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:35 shucklesors wrote:On May 02 2011 21:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote:
People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here. Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2. Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2. Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down. Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2. Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2. There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2. Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team. I have to agree with this no way any sc2 pro's can even make it to b team if they switch game because sc bw demands more skills than sc2 does .
QFT. MC is B team material at best, and he knows it. His public persona just indicates that he is an insecure person in RL.
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Calgary25972 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:59 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 13:48 Whitewing wrote:On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote:
If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months. It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches. Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all. Metagame in BW is still changing lol, Just look at Neo.G_Soulkey + Zero ZvT. And Shines crazy build that he used on Reality in MSL. TBLS are super hardworking, and masters of RTS, they'd destroy everyone pretty fast, maybe a month.
The metagame cannot change unless people are doing new stuff like throwing shit at each other to distrct their opponents. The standard strategies are changing and the idea of metagaming your opponent by making assumptions is consistent.
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Calgary25972 Posts
On April 30 2011 16:28 Loodah wrote:
The game is a bit volatile, and the metagame is changing drastically, but the top players always seem to stay ahead with respect to build orders and strategies.
The metagame cannot change. The "standard" build orders change, but the idea of gaining an advantage through assumption ("playing the metagame") is standard as always.
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Calgary25972 Posts
On April 30 2011 22:47 blubbdavid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote:
I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo.
First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm.
Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things. 3. Innovative play? And what do you think of the recent metagame shifts, in ZvT (Queens), and ZvZ (Hive) ?
This is a shift in strategy, not a shift in metagame.
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i'm glad we can still count on good old chill to slap down those who misuse the word metagame
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On May 02 2011 17:08 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 14:31 Doodsmack wrote:On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote:
Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future. You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea: 1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time. 2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs. 3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games. 4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year. If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh. Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
Pretty much....people are acting like its a stretch to predict that Flash would dominate in a month LOL. Look at Mondragon putting up an awesome showing in TSL which was basically his first tourney? He was amazing at BW for a foreigner but still maybe possessed like 1/50th of the skill Flash has. All the big names who transferred over seriously like Nada, Boxer, July pretty much instantly became top players and not even those guys were even close to Flash in skill at the time. But its a stretch to say Flash would dominate in a month? About as big a stretch as saying water is wet lol
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Calgary25972 Posts
On May 01 2011 01:48 tyCe wrote:
Flash would add 6 more dimensions to the metagame.
While it's possible that you understand what metagame means and are implying that Flash is bringing girls to distract his opponent and poisoning his opponents' food to gain an advantage, it seems more likely that you don't know what metagame means. It's "playing the game outside the game", not "the standard strategy".
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EPT
