There's that kid who was on the Root Team for only a month or so... and having only played SC2 for like a month or so amount of time before he switched to another team... but his mechanics alone already allowed him to do great and he's now on some team with Artosis and he's near the top of NA GM already It doesn't take too long to learn the game and the strategies... he already has one half the requires already developed from prior experiences from BW...
They also already have a pretty good mindset in practices and can play many hours a day to be prepared.
Idra was one of those more mechanically superior players and also understands strategies and why they're used... he switched over to SC2 and is doing quite well...
that match with Nada vs TLO some time in 2010? he barely played the game and ended up beating TLO on steppes of war with tank lines/turrets/vikings/floating raxes... quite convincingly...
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
I agree with most but saying Flash is the best BW player of all time ^_^. too be fair though I do think it would take Jaedong/Flash more then 2 weeks too get at "top" level. Its a whole new game with a lot of different shit, I could see it taking a month about too be able to play at high level.
Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
On May 02 2011 17:43 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
At this point in time it's going to take more than a month for players to transfer and be good. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous. SC2 maybe of the same vein but no matter how good you are you're not going to be able to get the experience that you'd need to understand every situation in so short a time. The game has developed a long way since a few weeks from release. Just having good macro and micro isn't enough to make you a pro maybe at release, but not today.
Heh, practicing lategame in his head makes sense. I've always wondered why pro's don't use savegames of certain situations and then play from there each time (at least in shows i've watched it never seemed like they did, only full games). So in a TvZ you could skip the start and go straight to dealing with muta harass. Or skip forward like 20 minutes and have 2 players practice their carrier vs goliath micro over and over to prepare a snipe. There's probably loads of other examples too, but surely it would help train players at particular things that are bad at, or training for specific games.
nalgene the kid you're talking about is Gosi[Terran] who was an a-/a ranked BW player. Along with Kolll and MorroW he was definitely a young player you could easily point out as having natural skill. I believe he was infact near the top of the ladder within a week, despite not even knowing what all the units even did. Which flies in the face of all the SC2 nuts claiming that it's a totally different game and somehow the skills don't translate.
On May 02 2011 17:43 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
At this point in time it's going to take more than a month for players to transfer and be good. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous. SC2 maybe of the same vein but no matter how good you are you're not going to be able to get the experience that you'd need to understand every situation in so short a time. The game has developed a long way since a few weeks from release. Just having good macro and micro isn't enough to make you a pro maybe at release, but not today.
You'd be surprised how far a player can progress given a month's worth of 12 hour days as practice. Sure there's plenty of nuances to the matchups, but mass-gaming is going to show you a lot, and quickly. Especially for a player like Flash who picks up on things so brilliantly.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
I agree with most but saying Flash is the best BW player of all time ^_^. too be fair though I do think it would take Jaedong/Flash more then 2 weeks too get at "top" level. Its a whole new game with a lot of different shit, I could see it taking a month about too be able to play at high level.
Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
This becoming a progamer in a month sounds like a japan manga, where the hero is like a genius, becoming stronger and stronger faster than anyone. 8)
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap and this is really easier. Second half shows greatly increased speed/accuracy than manual control.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap.
Okay, that was lame. I guess it's true then. Why the hell would they do that? Give ghosts a bigger area around them so they don't clump with marine/marauder instead. That's just way to easy.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap.
Okay, that was lame. I guess it's true then. Why the hell would they do that? Give ghosts a bigger area around them so they don't clump with marine/marauder instead. That's just way to easy.
Seems perfectly legit... they have something called "Smart Cast" in SC2 and this can be done with larva injects...it's just an interface change that makes the game better anyways...?
the pathing in the other game isn't as bad as most people think... and air units could move 360 degrees motion... only ground units had 8-directional movements...
that video was made on april 29, 2011 so you could do it right now if you wanted
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap and this is really easier. Second half shows greatly increased speed/accuracy than manual control.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap.
Okay, that was lame. I guess it's true then. Why the hell would they do that? Give ghosts a bigger area around them so they don't clump with marine/marauder instead. That's just way to easy.
Kinda shows that SC2 players are just base-lining mechanical skill from SC2, in the same way as BW players are baselining theirs from BW.
I'm sure in SC3 all the SC2 players will complain how easy it is.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
The WC3 progamers are not up to BW player standards. I recall one good player switching to BW and not making it out of the B-Team, on Wemade Fox although i forgot his nick.
EPT
