EPTPost 1.3 Infestors - Really Too Strong? - Page 5
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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Falcor
Canada894 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:01 ket- wrote: Good point Falcor. But yeah, I mean, althought I didn't mention it, I also wasn't trying to say that lings should be as cost effective as marines/zealots, but a little more than what they are now probably wouldn't hurt. Considering the "engagement buffer" role they usually play in sc2 unlike bw where they were an insane damage deal, I'd much rather have a hp and/or armor boost at T3 as an upgrade than a 20% damage which, at this stage, really isnt that big a deal considering most units they're gonna engage will have at least +2 armor (in a normal game at least). But yeah that's not on topic anymore so lets leave it at that, I just thought about it as I was thinking about the lings/infestors combination. It's not an endgame build though obviously as it's more of a midgame transitional build which is very very efficient, so my point doesn't really matter in the topic I guess  scrwe the topic  . i Acutally went back and watched some sc matches. and man i forgot how fast lings did dmg in sc. Saw lings running towards a bunker and was like ohhhh man dont suicide those lings. 2 seconds later bunker dead lol.On April 26 2011 23:16 Newguy wrote: Idra said that before infestors were very tested, I think he would retract some of his hastily made statements. Roaches are still incredibly useful, I enter the midgame with a roach heavy army every single ZvZ. Against fast infestors, I simply expand faster then him, get burrow, and pressure constantly, burrowing to heal in between my pressure, while getting my own infestors up. In ZvP they seem overpowered because against a protoss who plays against infestors like he is playing against any other strat they are powerful, but we have yet to see protosses adapt against infestor play, and once they do infestors will seem much less powerful. ZvT is the only matchup where I could see them being overpowered, and much of their usefulness is destroyed by heavy midgame banshee play, which many terrans as of now don't do against infestors. idk with fast infestors you should beable to expo faster then roaches since roaches cost alot more mins. And one of my last games i did a heavy infestor build with 1-0 roaches vs 2-2 roaches which way outnumbered my roaches and as long as i engaged in a choke i was fine. | ||
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Syben
United States512 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:12 CoMMoDuS wrote: People should not focus on single units being too strong, but if they really need to talk about balance they should consider the entire race, their strength and weaknesses, and see if those do not even out each other. I feel like the game needs some more tweaks for more creative or entertaining play but balancewise i view neither zerg nor the other two races as incredibly over or underpowered. Or they just shouldn't talk about balance at all. No one changes their opinion about balance from reading a thread. These balance threads are simply there as a result of people tilting on ladder and letting us know what they are losing to. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
That said I've noticed people seem to think I'm misrepresenting IdrA (certainly not my intention!) and the quote was only added as it's one of the things most commonly brought up by people claiming that Infestors are too strong. I'll edit a clarification in too though, but I didn't want to straw man the side I don't understand so I felt the quote was relevant as it's something brough up often. So yeah, clarification being added now. | ||
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AmunEli
United States35 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:17 Syben wrote: Neural parasite is incredibly potent when combined with fungal. I personally believe that infestors are around where they should be balance wise but I think that blizzard may want to look into neural parasite being immune vs massive units. I had 3-4 colossus nueral'd and combined with fungal, it just demolished my army, no matter what the unit mix is. I think the main difference between HT and Infestors is the versatility aspect of the unit. HT is a bigger money sink and requires a tech path that is not readily safe to goto until the late game, where as infestors are part of the tech path to Hive and give more options to the zerg. What exactly would be the point of NP if you can't NP massive units? | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army. Morrow and Idra have both stated several times they've tried infestors but still like roach hydra corruptor more unless its under special circumstances (like mass blink stalker). Seriously this idea that all pro Zergs play mindlessly and refuse to try anything else out of sheer stubbornness or stupidity is so fucking ridiculous. You don't think players who dedicate their life to this game and make a living off it aren't trying to figure out the best ways to win? On topic though: ZvP I still can't get infestors to be cost effective against collosus armies. Lalush summed it up pretty well: On April 03 2011 11:57 LaLuSh wrote: I have always been of the opinion that fungal growth should (partially) ignore shields and do direct damage to armor (like a light version of plague from broodwar). With fungal being a projectile as it was in the PTR build, I think fungal doing half of its damage to armor and half of its damage to shields would have been a good compromise. Especially as protoss have got counters to infestors in colossi range and templar feedback. Patch didn't do too much to change the infestor's situation in ZvP. I still think it's too much of an investment, too hard to micro; a strategy too prone to backfiring. Whatever people say, you can't keep chaining fungals against a thermal lance army. Maybe in theory you can -- but doesn't work as well in practice. And it just gets harder and harder the longer the game progresses and the bigger the Protoss army gets. 2-3 infestors are always good. More than that commonly proves to be a waste. ZvT though, infestors do seem very strong and Zergs like darkforce are showing how powerful they can be in the lategame. Broodlords destroy every ground unit, Vikings are supposed to deal with Brood lords (they're really the only thing TErran has to deal with brood lords) but with the DPS boost and increased damage to armor infestors destroy vikings. A lot of Terrans are complaining about infestor BL in ZvT and it does seem extremely powerful, but I think we need to let it play out more before drawing conclusions. For one, it would be cool to see Terrans trying to use ghosts in the late game. EMP on infestors and snipe on Brood lords might turn out to counter this composition or at least do well against it. Ravens also continue to be underused. Considering both infestors and brood lords are slow, HSM could be a pretty good option, and PDD stos broodlord attack. It's hilarious (and hypocritical at the same time) that you say Zergs are too busy QQing and doing the same old strat to try something new, yet at the same time you conclude infestors are way overpowered and have no counter like 3 weeks after the patch has been out.... Maybe you should herp derp stop sieging tanks beside a planetary at your 3rd and waiting until you max out. See how it can work both ways? | ||
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Arkless
Canada1547 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:11 WhiteDog wrote: 1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait! He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less. | ||
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metzGRR
Sweden86 Posts
Every. Single. Time, someone points out pvz/tvz imbalance protosses and terrans, even some zergs say "Well, maybe zergs should play differently.", yeah? Now its your turn. | ||
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Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
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Poopi
France12911 Posts
Not so much time to wait, they play soon. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Even if there is unit imbalance out there. It rarely is the main factor why a pro gamer loses. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Structures are a good way to deal with a zerg, but the bunker is rarely used ... maybe a build time decrease with the neosteel research, that would be awesome xD. (so early game wouldn't be affected hehe) So the zerg has a few unit combinations that just destroy a terran if the terran attacks into it. And giving the zerg the time to gather ressources and upgrades is also a bad thing. But the damage change of fungal will need time for people to adept to it, so i wouldn't say to much now. Right now i have the feeling the infestor will soon get a nerf again, maybe disallow fungal stacking ^^ (would benefit ahhh moments in progames ).right now fungal is a weak psy storm that costs you 75 energy but allows you to add up endless damage if you are happy with what you caught. I really wonder why people complain about forcefields that they take away the micro *g*. anyway you could get those chunky mech units that will not get scratched by fungal ... well you can but neural parasite will take care of them if they move 4 ranges away from the next siege tank and unlike yamato you can't stop this with an emp (i think ^.^ ) But as the new patch will make ghosts less gas intensiv i think we will see more of them in tvz. Also autoturrets work wonders against the new infestor builds. And ravens have not to much problems against fungal ... if they would up sm range by one they cold even handle corrupter sniping then .in short infestors only np ! but you can't build the conters to the other zerg units ^^; or the infestor superior range will poke them down. (the terran superior range isn't what it used to be anymore atleast with the drawbacks they have. B> Flamethrower upgrade for thors :3 range 7 of course ! xD) | ||
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Tuneful
United States327 Posts
People still have 1-control-group syndrome so fungal seems more powerful than it really is, and we've seen plenty of MLG and NASL games where tanks and colossus snipe off the infestor before it can do any damage.. in Sheth v Rainbow from NASL, the infestors were incredibly short-lived against rainbow's fantastic positioning. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
the buff to ground battles are something I can't comment on, I am just not good enough to use it effectively | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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Mwentworth56
146 Posts
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
Infestor (100/150): FG: 9 range, 36 (46.8 to armored units) damage over 4 seconds, roots targets Other: Can't attack, neural parasite, burrow move, infested terrans Ghost (150/150, might change to 200/100): EMP: 10 range,100 shield (+100 energy) instant damage Other: Attack bonus to light units, cloak, snipe High Templar (50/150, storm cost an additional 200/200) PS: 9 range, 80 damage over 4 seconds Othe: Can't attack, archon warp | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
EDIT: And medivacs, come to think of it. 2 of those (from a reactor starport) are 200 gas, and you need them if you've got marines against infestors. They're actually essential. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On April 26 2011 23:22 Arkless wrote: He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less. you aren`t supposed to have enough gas to make all those "key-units". Imagine Zerg could do this and produce Mutas and Ultras while constantly pumping out infestors. When Terran scouts the Zerg going Infestor he can go for Ghost and skip or delay the Thors, cuz there is no immediate need for it. | ||
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