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On April 26 2011 22:37 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote:
Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal.
I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again: You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
absolute nonsense, I am willing to bet that my infestor ultra broodlord ling army has atleast the same amount of tech and resources invested into it, and right now with proper micro it can stand up to the protoss ball
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well, protoss just a moves with there stupid mobile siege colossus. just one big deathball
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On April 26 2011 22:37 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote:
Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal.
I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again: You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
Those deathball killing zerg armies cost a LOT of resources too, between all the Infestors, a few Ultras and bane/ling.
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Infestors are not even tested enough yet with good builds (like every Zerg refuses to build them in ZvP, or just overmakes them and builds no other unit), why should you nerf them yet?
(PS: I'm the opinion FG is too strong against Protoss, but as long as the Zergs don't realize they need to play them (Morrow, Mondragon at least realized it but too late), Blizzard shouldn't nerf them until Zergs realize how good they are)
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On April 26 2011 21:40 Potatisodlaren wrote:
IdrA said in the latest state of the game that he thought they were good but not as good as one would think.
I personally don't think enough time has passed to determine how good they are now from looking at vods and replays, every Zerg I've seen have absolutely terrible Infestor control compared to Jaedongs Defiler control which is the best benchmark I think.
Broodwar comparisons in sc2 are so ZZZZZZZ. Its a different game, and infestors are a different unit with different abilities. The only part of fungal I personally find to strong is the root effect. Zergs can effectively fungal an entire ball in place. wait 3 seconds a re fungal dropping umpteenth amount of supply. The opposing army has no ability to move, or escape. hence nullifying any micro. I think it should be either a ensnare effect, or a damage effect but not both. But if you must have both, then damage and a slow like effect like concussive shell i think is a fair compromise.
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On April 26 2011 22:37 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote:
Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal.
I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again: You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
I never said it would deal with it easily but it may certainly help, please read correctly.
I have lost count of the number of pro games I have seen where Zergs 200 army gets steamrollered by Protoss 200 with losing barely any supply of units, then 1A into the base and finish the game in under 2 mins.
All I said was this change to Infesters may actually help Zerg, because if no answer is found to the Colossus i can see Blizz nerfing them in the future which would be bad for the game.
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Ewerstorm : it's absolutely not easier to survive with infestors than with HTs, ANY match you see at top level, infestors don't survive once they've cast because the spell has little range. HTs are protected by the ball and usually when they cast storms they either die if it was a lone storm to try and get tons of damage before engaging, or they stay alive - last option being morph into an archon.
That being said, I really don't think the new FG is too strong. It's good, but not overpowered. Infestors are really gas-heavy, and one of the issues with zerg is that all the cost-effective units are gas-bound. Unlike marines and zealots, lings very quickly become obsolete. Sure they help out a little to engage, but in a matter of 3 seconds you're gonna be left with everything but the lings. Marines, on the other hand, become stronger the further you are into the game and only a few things actually counter them pretty badly (basically any form of strong ae dmg but zerg doesn't have any - ultras get raped by marines and infestors well.. they're not bad, but they don't "rape" marines either as it takes time and the ae effect isnt that huge either. Would take 15'ish seconds and TONS of energy to own a big clump of marines). Zealots become SO good with charge, and I really think that's a good thing. They should be, they're a mineral sink but they still cost 100 of it.
I feel that's one of the biggest problems with zergs, if you want a cost efficient army you almost have to forget about lings while T/P can always rely on zealots/marines to play a major role in a fight (massive dps and/or tank). The new infestors+lings build is good midgame because there's still not THAT massive aoe damage but once you reach a certain numbers of colossi/tanks, no amount of fungal/lings will kill that.
Or am I completely wrong about this? I'm honestly trying to be objective but being zerg it's obviously a bit hard I guess.
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On April 26 2011 22:51 ket- wrote:
I feel that's one of the biggest problems with zergs, if you want a cost efficient army you almost have to forget about lings while T/P can always rely on zealots/marines to play a major role in a fight (massive dps and/or tank). The new infestors+lings build is good midgame because there's still not THAT massive aoe damage but once you reach a certain numbers of colossi/tanks, no amount of fungal/lings will kill that.
I think as a zerg you really cant think of a cost effective army. Zerg isnt suppose to be cost effective, and especially when it comes to minerals we float so much if lings were cost effective oh man :| But i personally still use a large section of my army as lings just for their mobility and fungal marines and run past them to tanks...sooo good.
Altho now i know that infestor and ling is amazing...kinda wish the fungal didnt change and was still a 8 second hold...so if my opponet pushes out to the middle of the map i just instant counter any of his bases while my infestors fungal their army forever lol
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If anything there should be more extremely strong aoe abilities in the game since it forces people out of the unit ball mode of play.
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Good point Falcor. But yeah, I mean, althought I didn't mention it, I also wasn't trying to say that lings should be as cost effective as marines/zealots, but a little more than what they are now probably wouldn't hurt.
Considering the "engagement buffer" role they usually play in sc2 unlike bw where they were an insane damage deal, I'd much rather have a hp and/or armor boost at T3 as an upgrade than a 20% damage which, at this stage, really isnt that big a deal considering most units they're gonna engage will have at least +2 armor (in a normal game at least).
But yeah that's not on topic anymore so lets leave it at that, I just thought about it as I was thinking about the lings/infestors combination. It's not an endgame build though obviously as it's more of a midgame transitional build which is very very efficient, so my point doesn't really matter in the topic I guess 
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On April 26 2011 22:58 flodeskum wrote:
If anything there should be more extremely strong aoe abilities in the game since it forces people out of the unit ball mode of play.
good point - imagine plague in sc2 vs a clumped up tossball. I`ld love it
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Forcefields:
Can hold multiple units in place for 15 seconds and make sure they don't move so they're hit by Colossus AoE and Storms. Totals more damage and more control.
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On April 26 2011 22:48 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:37 Apolo wrote:On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote:
Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal.
I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again: You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200. I never said it would deal with it easily but it may certainly help, please read correctly. I have lost count of the number of pro games I have seen where Zergs 200 army gets steamrollered by Protoss 200 with losing barely any supply of units, then 1A into the base and finish the game in under 2 mins. All I said was this change to Infesters may actually help Zerg, because if no answer is found to the Colossus i can see Blizz nerfing them in the future which would be bad for the game.
That makes it sound like you think if toss gets up to 200 he should win no matter what. Which is rediculous, the 200/200 deathball is a rediculous unengageable army. And be honest man, having an omni army is not fair.
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I would take that idra quote off though. He's said since then that infestors weren't as good as he expected in ZvP and were actually slightly disappointing.
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On April 26 2011 21:40 Potatisodlaren wrote:
IdrA said in the latest state of the game that he thought they were good but not as good as one would think.
This is IdrA we're talking about.. 8D
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Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
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On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote:
Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong
2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know.
3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
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What you're doing is posting numbers and telling us what they feel like to you. I don't see anything objective about your post, to be honest. And you can't compare storm to fungal, really. I mean it would be one thing if psi storm pinned your units into the ground so that they couldn't move while doing AOE, against races that gain strength from having a limited surface area for enemies to attack them.
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People should not focus on single units being too strong, but if they really need to talk about balance they should consider the entire race, their strength and weaknesses, and see if those do not even out each other. I feel like the game needs some more tweaks for more creative or entertaining play but balancewise i view neither zerg nor the other two races as incredibly over or underpowered.
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On April 26 2011 22:37 Apolo wrote:
[
Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
Only true if he's going roach/hydra. Zerg has some of the most supply efficient units in the game, they just haven't been used much against protoss up until now.
Broodlord: 300/250 - 4 supply
Colossus: 300/200 - 6 supply
Infestor: 100/150 - 2 supply
Void ray: 250/150 - 3 supply
Baneling: 50/25 - 0.5 supply
Stalker: 125/50 - 2 supply
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EPT
