I think I'm walking a fine line here on not making threads to discuss balance and not making threads to suggest changes to the game, so apologies to mods in advance if I stray from the correct path.
My purpose with this thread is to try to understand comments like the following which are around fairly often and to get a better understanding of the Infestor since the 1.3 changes.
And zerg buff once again. Nothing concerning expected infestors nerf, sadly.
There seems to be quite a consensus that the current Infestor needs changing and that it may be too powerful, a view that is especially prevalent on the B.net forums but which seems far from limited to them. People often quote IdrA's MLG interview from the 21st of March (here) in support of the maybe OP case, which went as follows:
Idra: It's going to be a massive change for Zerg. I think Infestors are going to be overpowered against Protoss now, and it's going to completely change ZvZ as it'll nullify Roaches beyond timing attacks. ZvT might not change too much, simply because Mutas are so good and it might not be worth the gas to get Infestors before the lategame. But Fungal is going to be ridiculously good now.
I should add I'm unsure if IdrA has given an opinion since testing them.
Edit: Throughout the thread it has been claimed that since release IdrA has stated they're not too good, so I'm adding this in for clarification that I'm not saying this is IdrA's position on the subject now. The quote is simply added as it tends to come up in the discussion from people who claim that Infestors are too strong and I didn't want to (for lack of a better word) hide any evidence usually put forward to support the too strong argument.
In short, according to posts in this thread - on State of the Game and elsewhere IdrA has stated they're not as good as originally thought.
My question then is do the majority of people still feel that Fungal Growth needs tweaking after the time it's been in play, and if so why, and how?
I also wanted to lay out why I find suggestions they do need nerfing wrong in case there are people who feel it should be changed.
The first argument, and most common is it's simply too powerful,dealing 36-47 damage over 4 seconds.
To put that in to perspective it's a 100/150 lair tech unit requiring it's own structure and 75 energy as well as a 50 second morph time, that can't kill a marine or a zergling. Of course 150 energy can over 5-6 seconds but can that really be argued to be too strong or game breaking? Another way of looking at it is the Fungal Growth is slightly less DPS than a stimmed marine, albeit with a 2 radius aoe, which again doesn't seem unreasonable when compared with the likes of Siege Tanks, Colossi, High Templar, Nukes, Stimmed Bio or even Planetary Fortress'.
Second is the 4 second freeze in place, which when coupled with the first point has led people to argue it's too strong. 4 seconds of 36-47 damage and no possible way to move out of the way to avoid the next 36-47 indefinitely pending Infestor energy.
Without again going in to the DPS value of the unit, units that are stuck are still able to fight (unlike units fleeing a storm), they're still able to be defended by other units, and the only time Infestors are able to completely kill something is if a unit or a group of units are completely by themselves, unsupported and the Zerg player has literally hundreds of energy and the time needed to kill them.
Further an Infestor is only useful so long as it's not dead and it has energy, and given it's 90hp and 0 armour armoured status isn't the most common thing in the game.
It can also be argued that the freezing units in place means that the Zerg has 4 seconds in which they're able to swarm units that were in the radius of 2 and within range of Infestors. I find it difficult to see this as a problem, it basically means that Zerg has some way to enter combat without just dying, some way to control the battlefield in the same way as Forcefield and Storm, and to a slightly lesser extent Siege Tanks.
In addition to all of the above points, Infestors are only at their most effective when the enemy is completely balled up, and whilst it can be argued that a moving is common and thus so are balls, and that Protoss in general and Marines are at their most powerful when tightly clustered I don't understand any argument here which is in essence "why should a non Zerg player have to think about the positioning of their units before a fight".
Finally with the Infestor buff coinciding with the removal of the Khaydarin Amulet, many argue that morph in Fungal should also be removed if Warp in Storms were too powerful. Especially since it is at times argued that since a unit can leave Storm it never deals it's maximum damage.
To first address the KA/Pathogen Glands point a HT could be warped in, in 5 seconds anywhere on the map that a pylon or Warp Prism could be placed, which left very little time for response before massive devastation to either mineral lines and was almost immediately available to defend counter attacks or any form of harass. The Infestor on the other hand may only spawn at a Hatchery, which is far easier to see. Whilst burrowed Infestors may be able to harass in a way that HT are no longer able to, preparing for harass, particularly cloaked harass, is something that Zerg has had to contend with since release and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone facing a Zerg to have to put a moment of thought in to defending their bases or scouting an army composition.
If a Protoss now wants a storm they have to wait 5 seconds for the warp in and around 43 seconds for the energy to build up, so around 48 seconds from deciding they need it (after researched over 110 seconds admittedly) where as the morph in time for an Infestor with Fungal ready takes 50 seconds (after the prior 80 seconds of research).
To address the second HT/Infestor comparison point (moving out of Storms) even here I think people arguing that Infestors are the stronger unit are wrong. Storm deals 80 damage over 4 seconds while Fungal deals ~40 damage over 4 seconds. So in other words, any longer than 2 seconds from seeing the storm, reacting to it and the units leaving the area, is more health damage than Fungal deals.
Fungal can of course be placed on the same units again but equally Storm is very often immediately cast again just in the new location and with Forcefields can become almost impossible to escape from also.
In addition to the health damage though, units moving from a Storm are not attacking back, where units stuck in a Fungal are able to. And even at a professional level it's unusual to see a player able to only select the units effected by the storm and then move away from it so that results in an even greater loss of damage output and any positional advantage.
There are no doubt arguments I've missed, but my point is I can't see anywhere that the Infestor is broken and yet it's one of the most common complaints I hear about Zerg on any site. Since 1.3 there has been an increase in Infestor play I believe but it's hardly been game breaking, more it just feels like Zerg players have a new option. To an extent it even makes Hive tech more viable as Infestation Pit's can actually be built for Infestor play now instead of merely as a stepping stone. So to repeat my earlier question, do the majority of people still feel that Fungal Growth needs tweaking after the time it's been in play, and if so why, and how?
IdrA said in the latest state of the game that he thought they were good but not as good as one would think.
I personally don't think enough time has passed to determine how good they are now from looking at vods and replays, every Zerg I've seen have absolutely terrible Infestor control compared to Jaedongs Defiler control which is the best benchmark I think.
In regards to your HT point: Getting enough sentries AND HT to control your opponent's army is fairly difficult to do given the high gas cost. With Storm, you can run out and kill the High Templar fairly easily, whereas vs. Infestors you're stuck in place until either your opponent runs out of energy or decides to retreat (or, destroys everything you have). I still think Fungal, if used correctly, is stronger than storm.
Like you say, I'm not sure it's « broken ». It'll definitely change the way the game works, and if you ask me, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Infestor are not that good. I've tried it again and again in ZvP, they can't do shit if you don't have the good unit composition with them. In ZvT they are great (really great), but I think terran needs to play a bit more tank heavy in order to adjust to infestorz.
There's some things I don't like when people compare the energy and blah blah. First of all, the HT moves as slow as a snail, infestors are rather fast and they can burrow. Therefor i'd say it's arguably easier to survive with them. The second point that no one seems to mention is that you actually have to research storm. It's 200 gas, and it takes ages, but every zerg/terran player who compares the two seems to ignore that storm has to be researched, and the CD of warpgates past the first HT you morph in.
Edit: Not saying infestors or ghosts are op just for the reccord, i'm just still really pissed about the KA removal, and no one seems to take those factors into account.
I read everything and your opinion is biased toward zerg as mine is toward terran... I'm not even good enough to make valid arguments but the fact that you can't dodge it the second time is really punishing at my level (diamond LOL) because of the way stuff clump together. the problem is, it isn't good enough against protoss and imo it's too strong against terran.
We should never state x unit is OP. Seriously guys, go to your search button and search Marauders and you will find so many threads telling you they are so OP (from just few months ago might want to add). Now days if someone says Marauder is OP people just laugh at you then point out how noob you are. Let us wait and see how us players deal with infestors.
My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
People were already using Infestors in ZvZ, where Hydra vs. Infestor was a personal choice (though slightly in favor of the Hydra), they are JUST experimenting with Infestor in ZvP and the ZvT matchup wasn't changed significantly (whatever Terrans are saying, Fungal kills Marines just as efficiently energywise as before the patch). Some players already used heavy Infestor play in ZvT before the patch, it was just undiscovered ground.
It's new and fancy, but currently not in anyway overpowered IMO. Opening Infestor in ZvT/ZvP has significant weaknesses; drops are very hard to deal with, no way to harass like with Mutas, open for 6Gate without LOTS (Losira style) spines, etc. Lategame, they are really nice though, but by that time there will be Colossus, Tanks, Ghosts, Templar, etc. on the field which are just as, if not more, efficient in killing lots of stuff.
Powerful infestors is good. Makes for interesting games. Infestors are like giant sacks of meat that are easy to kill but can dish out huge damage. Getting only fungal off of an infestor is still not cost effective, you have to keep them alive to kill another day.
In fact, the counters for infestors arn't even being used by terran/toss, ghost and high templar effectively. Basically infestors force this more interesting caster dynamic that was present in sc1 but has so far been on the sidelines in sc2. Maybe we'll even see ravens cast seeker missles on infestors clumps to keep infestor numbers in check.
I don't know about you but I think they should make infestors as powerful as possible so even if there is a direct counter to them you still get them. SV is the defiler counter in SC1, but you still get defilers right....
TLDR: If infestors are too powerful for the currnet metagame thats a good thing. Marine/tank and Collosus/stalker are boring ass compositions and I look forward to the day that we have this marin/tank/ghost/raven TvZ and stalker/zealot/high templar in PvZ.
No, infestors aren't too strong. They really aren't hard to snipe when u split bio or just pull 4 rauders and 2 shot them. Or emp. Or have good tank placement. Bio can heal/mech can repair/toss shields regenerate.
so far nobody has been dominating tournaments etc. with any kind of infestor abuse, so I don't see how it could be considered OP if it isn't producing any wins...
Yeah as has been stated, I'd rather go up against endless fungals than the incredible plague + lurker/etc micro that was dominating BW for a while. The fact that you cannot move until infestors out of energy or units are dead is annoying, but it just forces you to change your play by scouting ahead and separating key units etc
One key thing to note about ZvT infestor play, is that the terran's hard counter to infestors, Ghosts, must snipe 3 times instead of 2, to counteract the +1 regen infestors have.... Thats 75 energy to kill one unit, might as well EMP, except you only take 100 energy and infestor lives to fungal another day. I really want blizz to address this, I am having problems using ghosts to counter infestors, expecially since cloaked ghosts get insta fungaled by a good zerg who sees the graphical flicker.
On April 26 2011 21:49 Ewerstorm wrote: There's some things I don't like when people compare the energy and blah blah. First of all, the HT moves as slow as a snail, infestors are rather fast and they can burrow. Therefor i'd say it's arguably easier to survive with them. The second point that no one seems to mention is that you actually have to research storm. It's 200 gas, and it takes ages, but every zerg/terran player who compares the two seems to ignore that storm has to be researched, and the CD of warpgates past the first HT you morph in.
Infestors are only really fast on creep (which, I'll grant, is hopefully a notable portion of the map by the point in the game where you use them.)
HTs are definitely more expensive to tech to - Archives cost more than pit, and storm costs a bit more than pathogen glands to research. 3 boosts on the archives (seems reasonable), though, and its down to the same time as pathogen, and if you warped in templar when your archives finished, theyll have a full storm and on their way to a second when psi storm finishes.
So yes, those arguments are often glossed over, but HTs are by no means terrible. I'm still not sure that I like what the KA nerf accomplished, but that's neither here nor there.
It's too recent to judge, I think infestors are fine but it might be bias from playing zerg myself. I feel they bring much more depth to the game, especially in ZvT engagements have become more micro intensive. Most terrans haven't adapted to the new infestor, they have to leapfrog tanks more instead of pushing across the map and sieging all tanks at the same time. They need to get a couple ghosts late game for emp, a lot of zergs keep there infestors clumped up. HT feedback one-shots full energy infestors. Also keep in mind the gas investement is huge, it's gas not going to upgrades or mutas, terrans need to use that knowledge more, go heavier on tanks for exemple. The question needs to be asked in a couple of months once more stuff gets figured out.
You make many valid points in your theorycrafting.
I'm not sure why people cry so much about infestors, seems to be mostly from terran side. I've watched terran streams whining over infestors and it might be from those all the rage is comming. Those games has consisted of going a lot of things (mostly marins and/or marauders) except ghosts vs infestors.
But I've also seen some crazy terrans go ghost vs infestors, EMPing and sniping as if theres no tomorrow and ending up with very good results.
you'll see some crazy emp vs feedback micro, I bet if thorzain wanted to he could pull of the same thing vs a zerg that is investing into heavy infestor instead of mutas.
Same goes for MC, I bet if he wanted he could go templars and feedback infestors the same way he feedback ghosts. (But haven't seen toss complaining about heavy infestor play)
well, i am a bronz player, and i started to play an infestor based style. I think that the changes made me see that it is easier shut down big army balls, like marines, or zealots.
It gives me a reason to get to hive tech faster, as with lings i need the festors for Anti Air. It gives me a reason to tech up to things i never used be4, to herass and to make game choices that i never considered before. I think nothing wrong of the infestor changes, and i hope they do not change them at all.
Buffing the infestor also makes roach / hydra easier to deal with, as i think in ZvZ many go roach / Hydra, and i was hard to stop before. infestors take down the roaches, and banes, or lings can take the hydras.
So what if ppl adress this as the biggest issue, let them find something to complain about with zerg. I think zerg is not broken at all, and we should concentrate more on the OP colossus, who are cliff walking range 9 helions. with loads more armour.
On April 26 2011 21:49 Ewerstorm wrote: There's some things I don't like when people compare the energy and blah blah. First of all, the HT moves as slow as a snail, infestors are rather fast and they can burrow. Therefor i'd say it's arguably easier to survive with them. The second point that no one seems to mention is that you actually have to research storm. It's 200 gas, and it takes ages, but every zerg/terran player who compares the two seems to ignore that storm has to be researched, and the CD of warpgates past the first HT you morph in.
Edit: Not saying infestors or ghosts are op just for the reccord, i'm just still really pissed about the KA removal, and no one seems to take those factors into account.
Well if you take that kind of stuff in account let;s mention then that a 2templar that are out of energy can at least do something, transform into an archon wich is by no way a bad unit. Infestors without energy however are just walking gasstanks, yes they can spit out some infested terrans but those cost energy as well.
On April 26 2011 22:00 World_Ender wrote: Yeah as has been stated, I'd rather go up against endless fungals than the incredible plague + lurker/etc micro that was dominating BW for a while. The fact that you cannot move until infestors out of energy or units are dead is annoying, but it just forces you to change your play by scouting ahead and separating key units etc
One key thing to note about ZvT infestor play, is that the terran's hard counter to infestors, Ghosts, must snipe 3 times instead of 2, to counteract the +1 regen infestors have.... Thats 75 energy to kill one unit, might as well EMP, except you only take 100 energy and infestor lives to fungal another day. I really want blizz to address this, I am having problems using ghosts to counter infestors, expecially since cloaked ghosts get insta fungaled by a good zerg who sees the graphical flicker.
Why don't you EMP? E.g. 4 clustered infestors would lose 400 energy to 1 emp, 800 energy with 2 fast emps (bug that dont let you cast 2 fast emps at same place now will be adressed next patch)
Wasn't the ghost change a consequence of the infestor buffs? Unless you have a lot of infestors, a few ghost can be very efficient in shutting them down.
On April 26 2011 21:53 RifleCow wrote: Powerful infestors is good. Makes for interesting games. Infestors are like giant sacks of meat that are easy to kill but can dish out huge damage. Getting only fungal off of an infestor is still not cost effective, you have to keep them alive to kill another day.
In fact, the counters for infestors arn't even being used by terran/toss, ghost and high templar effectively. Basically infestors force this more interesting caster dynamic that was present in sc1 but has so far been on the sidelines in sc2. Maybe we'll even see ravens cast seeker missles on infestors clumps to keep infestor numbers in check.
I don't know about you but I think they should make infestors as powerful as possible so even if there is a direct counter to them you still get them. SV is the defiler counter in SC1, but you still get defilers right....
TLDR: If infestors are too powerful for the currnet metagame thats a good thing. Marine/tank and Collosus/stalker are boring ass compositions and I look forward to the day that we have this marin/tank/ghost/raven TvZ and stalker/zealot/high templar in PvZ.
Please refrain from insulting the science vessel by mentioning it as though it was a equal to the pathetic raven. On the topic, no, infestors arent too powerful as they are now.
im pretty sure in the post conceriing Idras interview that Idra himself said that everything else of protoss was OP so the infestor buff was nothing in comparison, or something to that effect =P not saying i agree, just saying..
I think infestors would compare favorably with HTs without the archon ability, with it, it probably tips the hat to HTs. I think it could be argued that infestors as a unit in isolation are OP, but other zerg units are just pretty bad which is why on the whole it's not dominating.
I think many terran, protoss, and even zerg players are way too used to being cavalier with their units and not use to zerg having real threats before broods. The number of times I see terran and protoss players just waltz onto creep and get away with it is absurd and I'm 750 masters.
I love infestors for those team games where some opponent zerg goes 500000 mutalisks. 4-5 fungals kills them all, and almost always results in the opponent making some comment that makes me smile.
I don't know how I feel about the 4 seconds of keeping units in place. That just feels like a very un-Starcrafty thing to do, but at the same time so are FF's, which I have no problem against. From a Zerg's perspective I love it, but I'm pretty sure I'd be raging at it if I weren't Zerg.
The damage itself isn't a big deal to me - those numbers can be changed easily. It's the holding in place that makes or breaks the spell.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
Fair enough, but there's a fairly big risk the Zerg player takes in doing that. If a player can trade skill for economic advantage, balance-wise that's a good thing
There's never things as Caster units are too strong. They make the game better in every aspect of it. BW caster units were ridiculously OP and it's one of the thing who make the game good.
The probleme tho, Infestor buff impact ZvT more than ZvP which wasn't the goal.
While you can still attack in FG, the infestors can simply cast it and run back. Sure you can have tanks placed properly so that the infestors get tank shots but whats better... losing ~20 supply worth of marine or ~4 supply sacking 2 infestors.
At this point I dont know if its broken but they do seem very powerful to me. PTR 1.3.3 gives the ghosts a slight buff with 200/100 cost and able to spam cast EMP. Guess time will tell how this will all pan out.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
On April 26 2011 22:01 Bensio wrote: I think the missile change needs to come back, more micro FTW
I agree, I liked that change, perhaps increase the speed of the projectile from the PTR original speed so satisfy some people?
Either way, as is, I don't think infestors are OP at all, just make some ghosts or HTs, that being said most infestors die quickly to seige tanks or collosus before they get up there anyway.
I see them being used to great success in zvp and zvt at the highest levels, and this makes me rejoice! Zerg still feels weak in zvp so I laugh to think it's "overpowered" but I'm thinking how with just a couple more tweaks things might start to balance out.
I'm a protoss and I personally don't think the infestor is that bad. I've played against it quite a few times (but still not a huge amount). It can be extrememly effective, like really good. Reason for this is protoss army stacks like crazy. Late game you have VR's over collo's, collo's over small ground troops. Bring in AoE and you get 3 layers of units which get trapped. Problem to this? Scatter your units and problem solved. People are too quick to point the finger and blame something other then themselves. With infestors it's people who are too damn stupid to realise if you split your army, you'll be fine. (I'm also masters).
I have been using infestors to great effect in both zvp and zvt, I do not think they are too powerful though. My succes with them largely depends on my opponent not reacting properly.
There have been so many terrans who walk 40 marines in 1 group away from his tanks, gets fungaled and rages at infestors. And then there is terrans that realise that the threat of mutalisks is much much smaller when the zerg presents multiple infestors and produces more tanks, uses ghosts to keep my energy low or pushes really slow with bunker marine tank, and all of a sudden they dont seem that powerful anymore.
Same thing goes for protoss, I have had a lot of success eating the VR/colossi deathball with ling/infestor/ultralisk simply because the protoss doesnt react to my build and refuses to build high templars.
Infestors should be overpowerd in my opinion, it allows for HT feedback and EMP play, allowing more skill and epic moments in SC2. Infestors usually get killed before they can get off proper fungals though due to the small range, so they are not that OP in my opinion.
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
What does the archon change have to do with infestors? Archons being massive should have no effect on PvZ.
On April 26 2011 21:53 RifleCow wrote: Powerful infestors is good. Makes for interesting games. Infestors are like giant sacks of meat that are easy to kill but can dish out huge damage. Getting only fungal off of an infestor is still not cost effective, you have to keep them alive to kill another day.
In fact, the counters for infestors arn't even being used by terran/toss, ghost and high templar effectively. Basically infestors force this more interesting caster dynamic that was present in sc1 but has so far been on the sidelines in sc2. Maybe we'll even see ravens cast seeker missles on infestors clumps to keep infestor numbers in check.
I don't know about you but I think they should make infestors as powerful as possible so even if there is a direct counter to them you still get them. SV is the defiler counter in SC1, but you still get defilers right....
TLDR: If infestors are too powerful for the currnet metagame thats a good thing. Marine/tank and Collosus/stalker are boring ass compositions and I look forward to the day that we have this marin/tank/ghost/raven TvZ and stalker/zealot/high templar in PvZ.
Please refrain from insulting the science vessel by mentioning it as though it was a equal to the pathetic raven. On the topic, no, infestors arent too powerful as they are now.
I never compared ravens to science vessels. I just said science vessels are a good example of caster vs. caster dynamic that was so exciting in BW.
SC2 will never match SV vs Defiler in the game's current state. The complexity was pretty deep, SV would irradiate defilers, but you could micro scourge that would have to coordinated with attacks to kill off SV. A match would be about controlling SV numbers, plague allowed for a cornered defiler to bring an entire pack of SV down. Good use of defiler or SV pretty much made you the king in your respective race.
Anyways, what I'm saying is powerful casters are a good thing. Toss/terran have so many units they can still use, so they should use them...
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
What does the archon change have to do with infestors? Archons being massive should have no effect on PvZ.
So how do you intend to target broodlords when your units are stuck in fungals? Well now you can with archons
I have had my army stopped in its tracks by 5 infestors full energy, and ended up losing the game because all my army died. But are they op I would say maybe, but they required micro so they are not easy to use, hell ive even seen idra misclick and get them killed so i say no.
The first argument, and most common is it's simply too powerful,dealing 36-47 damage over 4 seconds.
This is what bothers me the most, it does SO much damage to a whole group of units, the problem is once you get a good hit off, it 100% immobilizes units and you can basically just keep chaining up Fungal Growths untill everything is dead that being mutas, marines, vikings etc.
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
What does the archon change have to do with infestors? Archons being massive should have no effect on PvZ.
So how do you intend to target broodlords when your units are stuck in fungals? Well now you can with archons
I'm not sure i understand what you are saying. Archons will still be stuck in fungals even if they are massive.
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
What does the archon change have to do with infestors? Archons being massive should have no effect on PvZ.
So how do you intend to target broodlords when your units are stuck in fungals? Well now you can with archons
Fungal will still stuck archons. They aren't frenzied as ultras, they're massive like collossus and thors, which means they can't be slowed by marauders and they can get hit by corrupters, and void rays deals extra damage against them - and they now brake force fields.
But fungals will still make them stay at place. But that still doesn't make fungal OP.
infestors need to be very strong, because you need them to stabilize your defense and finally start to put some pressure on your opponent. It`s not like some infestors instawin games for the Zerg. T and P have counters (ghost / HT) or can minimize the Damage taken by proper micro (army split / infestor focusing). And dont forget it takes multiple fungals to actually kill stuff and infestors are very squishy (die fast).
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
What does the archon change have to do with infestors? Archons being massive should have no effect on PvZ.
So how do you intend to target broodlords when your units are stuck in fungals? Well now you can with archons
Being massive doesn't grant invulnerability to fungal. Colossus are massive, but get snared by fungal all the same.
Besides, archons are slow and have only 2 range. The only way they would get close enough to target broodlords is if the zerg had no ground army at all.
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
What does the archon change have to do with infestors? Archons being massive should have no effect on PvZ.
So how do you intend to target broodlords when your units are stuck in fungals? Well now you can with archons
Fungal will still stuck archons. They aren't frenzied as ultras, they're massive like collossus and thors, which means they can't be slowed by marauders and they can get hit by corrupters, and void rays deals extra damage against them - and they now brake force fields.
But fungals will still make them stay at place. But that still doesn't make fungal OP.
My bad, was thinking of ultralisks
Although I can now neural parasite an Archon and use it to break forcefields
I think the change to Infesters is the best thing to happen to SC2 since it was released. Zerg now has a unit it can micro with, and be rewarded for the time and minerals invested in using them.
This also helps Zerg have a reason to reach for T3 tech, before the change no one made them and i think this also inadvertently stopped players going to T3 as building the Infester Pit was considered a wast of minerals\gas. Also the ability to now snipe workers with fungal could make for some interested strategies with drop\infester harass mid game
As Terran when you see these units in the game , they should be considering ghosts and ravens in their build queues to nullify them. Ghosts are an underused unit in the game which have great abilites. Snipe and EMP are great micro spells to be used. So far Terran has had it easy with its MMM ball with very little reason to build any other units.
Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal. I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead
On April 26 2011 22:15 qui wrote: Ghosts are cheaper in terms of gas.
HT have been indirectly buffed by the archon change.
How are these not indirect nerfs to Infestor? I am not whining btw, as I am sure a lot of players will stubbornly not built these units while I keep FG-ing their clumped up death balls.
On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote: Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal. I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead
Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
On April 26 2011 21:54 _Darwin_ wrote: No, infestors aren't too strong. They really aren't hard to snipe when u split bio or just pull 4 rauders and 2 shot them. Or emp. Or have good tank placement. Bio can heal/mech can repair/toss shields regenerate.
That's hard enough to do considering Terran already has to place tanks perfectly, split bio and micro marines while Zerg simply a-moves in and casts fungals all over the place.
The biggest problem for Terran atm is Broodlord+Infestor+Corrupter tho. This combination rapes nearly everything Terran has and your only chance to counter it are Ghosts. So I'm glad Blizzard is addressing this and reducing the gas cost of Ghosts.
Only time will tell if the Infestor buff makes ZvT lategame imba but Ghosts vs Infestor/Broodlord is definitely spectacular for viewers to watch
On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote: Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal. I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead
Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
absolute nonsense, I am willing to bet that my infestor ultra broodlord ling army has atleast the same amount of tech and resources invested into it, and right now with proper micro it can stand up to the protoss ball
On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote: Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal. I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead
Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
Those deathball killing zerg armies cost a LOT of resources too, between all the Infestors, a few Ultras and bane/ling.
Infestors are not even tested enough yet with good builds (like every Zerg refuses to build them in ZvP, or just overmakes them and builds no other unit), why should you nerf them yet?
(PS: I'm the opinion FG is too strong against Protoss, but as long as the Zergs don't realize they need to play them (Morrow, Mondragon at least realized it but too late), Blizzard shouldn't nerf them until Zergs realize how good they are)
On April 26 2011 21:40 Potatisodlaren wrote: IdrA said in the latest state of the game that he thought they were good but not as good as one would think.
I personally don't think enough time has passed to determine how good they are now from looking at vods and replays, every Zerg I've seen have absolutely terrible Infestor control compared to Jaedongs Defiler control which is the best benchmark I think.
Broodwar comparisons in sc2 are so ZZZZZZZ. Its a different game, and infestors are a different unit with different abilities. The only part of fungal I personally find to strong is the root effect. Zergs can effectively fungal an entire ball in place. wait 3 seconds a re fungal dropping umpteenth amount of supply. The opposing army has no ability to move, or escape. hence nullifying any micro. I think it should be either a ensnare effect, or a damage effect but not both. But if you must have both, then damage and a slow like effect like concussive shell i think is a fair compromise.
On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote: Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal. I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead
Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
I never said it would deal with it easily but it may certainly help, please read correctly.
I have lost count of the number of pro games I have seen where Zergs 200 army gets steamrollered by Protoss 200 with losing barely any supply of units, then 1A into the base and finish the game in under 2 mins.
All I said was this change to Infesters may actually help Zerg, because if no answer is found to the Colossus i can see Blizz nerfing them in the future which would be bad for the game.
Ewerstorm : it's absolutely not easier to survive with infestors than with HTs, ANY match you see at top level, infestors don't survive once they've cast because the spell has little range. HTs are protected by the ball and usually when they cast storms they either die if it was a lone storm to try and get tons of damage before engaging, or they stay alive - last option being morph into an archon.
That being said, I really don't think the new FG is too strong. It's good, but not overpowered. Infestors are really gas-heavy, and one of the issues with zerg is that all the cost-effective units are gas-bound. Unlike marines and zealots, lings very quickly become obsolete. Sure they help out a little to engage, but in a matter of 3 seconds you're gonna be left with everything but the lings. Marines, on the other hand, become stronger the further you are into the game and only a few things actually counter them pretty badly (basically any form of strong ae dmg but zerg doesn't have any - ultras get raped by marines and infestors well.. they're not bad, but they don't "rape" marines either as it takes time and the ae effect isnt that huge either. Would take 15'ish seconds and TONS of energy to own a big clump of marines). Zealots become SO good with charge, and I really think that's a good thing. They should be, they're a mineral sink but they still cost 100 of it.
I feel that's one of the biggest problems with zergs, if you want a cost efficient army you almost have to forget about lings while T/P can always rely on zealots/marines to play a major role in a fight (massive dps and/or tank). The new infestors+lings build is good midgame because there's still not THAT massive aoe damage but once you reach a certain numbers of colossi/tanks, no amount of fungal/lings will kill that.
Or am I completely wrong about this? I'm honestly trying to be objective but being zerg it's obviously a bit hard I guess.
On April 26 2011 22:51 ket- wrote: I feel that's one of the biggest problems with zergs, if you want a cost efficient army you almost have to forget about lings while T/P can always rely on zealots/marines to play a major role in a fight (massive dps and/or tank). The new infestors+lings build is good midgame because there's still not THAT massive aoe damage but once you reach a certain numbers of colossi/tanks, no amount of fungal/lings will kill that.
I think as a zerg you really cant think of a cost effective army. Zerg isnt suppose to be cost effective, and especially when it comes to minerals we float so much if lings were cost effective oh man :| But i personally still use a large section of my army as lings just for their mobility and fungal marines and run past them to tanks...sooo good.
Altho now i know that infestor and ling is amazing...kinda wish the fungal didnt change and was still a 8 second hold...so if my opponet pushes out to the middle of the map i just instant counter any of his bases while my infestors fungal their army forever lol
Good point Falcor. But yeah, I mean, althought I didn't mention it, I also wasn't trying to say that lings should be as cost effective as marines/zealots, but a little more than what they are now probably wouldn't hurt.
Considering the "engagement buffer" role they usually play in sc2 unlike bw where they were an insane damage deal, I'd much rather have a hp and/or armor boost at T3 as an upgrade than a 20% damage which, at this stage, really isnt that big a deal considering most units they're gonna engage will have at least +2 armor (in a normal game at least).
But yeah that's not on topic anymore so lets leave it at that, I just thought about it as I was thinking about the lings/infestors combination. It's not an endgame build though obviously as it's more of a midgame transitional build which is very very efficient, so my point doesn't really matter in the topic I guess
On April 26 2011 22:58 flodeskum wrote: If anything there should be more extremely strong aoe abilities in the game since it forces people out of the unit ball mode of play.
good point - imagine plague in sc2 vs a clumped up tossball. I`ld love it
Can hold multiple units in place for 15 seconds and make sure they don't move so they're hit by Colossus AoE and Storms. Totals more damage and more control.
On April 26 2011 22:31 Topdoller wrote: Protoss wont see much of a difference except Infesters may actually help deal with the 200 death ball by locking down Stalkers with Fungal. I have seen a tactic that when used with Broodlords infested Terrans + fungal really can make a big difference to the outcome
The change to this unit is interesting and changes the dynamics of the match ups. Interesting times ahead
Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
I never said it would deal with it easily but it may certainly help, please read correctly.
I have lost count of the number of pro games I have seen where Zergs 200 army gets steamrollered by Protoss 200 with losing barely any supply of units, then 1A into the base and finish the game in under 2 mins.
All I said was this change to Infesters may actually help Zerg, because if no answer is found to the Colossus i can see Blizz nerfing them in the future which would be bad for the game.
That makes it sound like you think if toss gets up to 200 he should win no matter what. Which is rediculous, the 200/200 deathball is a rediculous unengageable army. And be honest man, having an omni army is not fair.
I would take that idra quote off though. He's said since then that infestors weren't as good as he expected in ZvP and were actually slightly disappointing.
On April 26 2011 21:40 Potatisodlaren wrote: IdrA said in the latest state of the game that he thought they were good but not as good as one would think.
Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
What you're doing is posting numbers and telling us what they feel like to you. I don't see anything objective about your post, to be honest. And you can't compare storm to fungal, really. I mean it would be one thing if psi storm pinned your units into the ground so that they couldn't move while doing AOE, against races that gain strength from having a limited surface area for enemies to attack them.
People should not focus on single units being too strong, but if they really need to talk about balance they should consider the entire race, their strength and weaknesses, and see if those do not even out each other. I feel like the game needs some more tweaks for more creative or entertaining play but balancewise i view neither zerg nor the other two races as incredibly over or underpowered.
On April 26 2011 22:37 Apolo wrote: [ Offtopic but i see it as necessary, as this comes up again and again:
You shouldn't be able to deal with the Protoss 200 supply ball easily anyway. 200 Supply Protoss ball is worth much more in resources than Zerg 200 ball. It's only fair it should win and no one should expect any other outcome than a battle win for the Protoss in a 200 vs 200.
Only true if he's going roach/hydra. Zerg has some of the most supply efficient units in the game, they just haven't been used much against protoss up until now.
Idra said that before infestors were very tested, I think he would retract some of his hastily made statements. Roaches are still incredibly useful, I enter the midgame with a roach heavy army every single ZvZ. Against fast infestors, I simply expand faster then him, get burrow, and pressure constantly, burrowing to heal in between my pressure, while getting my own infestors up. In ZvP they seem overpowered because against a protoss who plays against infestors like he is playing against any other strat they are powerful, but we have yet to see protosses adapt against infestor play, and once they do infestors will seem much less powerful. ZvT is the only matchup where I could see them being overpowered, and much of their usefulness is destroyed by heavy midgame banshee play, which many terrans as of now don't do against infestors.
On April 26 2011 23:01 ket- wrote: Good point Falcor. But yeah, I mean, althought I didn't mention it, I also wasn't trying to say that lings should be as cost effective as marines/zealots, but a little more than what they are now probably wouldn't hurt.
Considering the "engagement buffer" role they usually play in sc2 unlike bw where they were an insane damage deal, I'd much rather have a hp and/or armor boost at T3 as an upgrade than a 20% damage which, at this stage, really isnt that big a deal considering most units they're gonna engage will have at least +2 armor (in a normal game at least).
But yeah that's not on topic anymore so lets leave it at that, I just thought about it as I was thinking about the lings/infestors combination. It's not an endgame build though obviously as it's more of a midgame transitional build which is very very efficient, so my point doesn't really matter in the topic I guess
scrwe the topic . i Acutally went back and watched some sc matches. and man i forgot how fast lings did dmg in sc. Saw lings running towards a bunker and was like ohhhh man dont suicide those lings. 2 seconds later bunker dead lol.
On April 26 2011 23:16 Newguy wrote: Idra said that before infestors were very tested, I think he would retract some of his hastily made statements. Roaches are still incredibly useful, I enter the midgame with a roach heavy army every single ZvZ. Against fast infestors, I simply expand faster then him, get burrow, and pressure constantly, burrowing to heal in between my pressure, while getting my own infestors up. In ZvP they seem overpowered because against a protoss who plays against infestors like he is playing against any other strat they are powerful, but we have yet to see protosses adapt against infestor play, and once they do infestors will seem much less powerful. ZvT is the only matchup where I could see them being overpowered, and much of their usefulness is destroyed by heavy midgame banshee play, which many terrans as of now don't do against infestors.
idk with fast infestors you should beable to expo faster then roaches since roaches cost alot more mins. And one of my last games i did a heavy infestor build with 1-0 roaches vs 2-2 roaches which way outnumbered my roaches and as long as i engaged in a choke i was fine.
Neural parasite is incredibly potent when combined with fungal. I personally believe that infestors are around where they should be balance wise but I think that blizzard may want to look into neural parasite being immune vs massive units. I had 3-4 colossus nueral'd and combined with fungal, it just demolished my army, no matter what the unit mix is. I think the main difference between HT and Infestors is the versatility aspect of the unit. HT is a bigger money sink and requires a tech path that is not readily safe to goto until the late game, where as infestors are part of the tech path to Hive and give more options to the zerg.
On April 26 2011 23:12 CoMMoDuS wrote: People should not focus on single units being too strong, but if they really need to talk about balance they should consider the entire race, their strength and weaknesses, and see if those do not even out each other. I feel like the game needs some more tweaks for more creative or entertaining play but balancewise i view neither zerg nor the other two races as incredibly over or underpowered.
Or they just shouldn't talk about balance at all. No one changes their opinion about balance from reading a thread. These balance threads are simply there as a result of people tilting on ladder and letting us know what they are losing to.
OP here, just wanted to chime in to say I have read everything and I'm finding the discussion interesting, but I don't have anything to add at this point.
That said I've noticed people seem to think I'm misrepresenting IdrA (certainly not my intention!) and the quote was only added as it's one of the things most commonly brought up by people claiming that Infestors are too strong. I'll edit a clarification in too though, but I didn't want to straw man the side I don't understand so I felt the quote was relevant as it's something brough up often. So yeah, clarification being added now.
On April 26 2011 23:17 Syben wrote: Neural parasite is incredibly potent when combined with fungal. I personally believe that infestors are around where they should be balance wise but I think that blizzard may want to look into neural parasite being immune vs massive units. I had 3-4 colossus nueral'd and combined with fungal, it just demolished my army, no matter what the unit mix is. I think the main difference between HT and Infestors is the versatility aspect of the unit. HT is a bigger money sink and requires a tech path that is not readily safe to goto until the late game, where as infestors are part of the tech path to Hive and give more options to the zerg.
What exactly would be the point of NP if you can't NP massive units?
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
Morrow and Idra have both stated several times they've tried infestors but still like roach hydra corruptor more unless its under special circumstances (like mass blink stalker). Seriously this idea that all pro Zergs play mindlessly and refuse to try anything else out of sheer stubbornness or stupidity is so fucking ridiculous. You don't think players who dedicate their life to this game and make a living off it aren't trying to figure out the best ways to win?
On topic though: ZvP I still can't get infestors to be cost effective against collosus armies. Lalush summed it up pretty well:
On April 03 2011 11:57 LaLuSh wrote: I have always been of the opinion that fungal growth should (partially) ignore shields and do direct damage to armor (like a light version of plague from broodwar).
With fungal being a projectile as it was in the PTR build, I think fungal doing half of its damage to armor and half of its damage to shields would have been a good compromise.
Especially as protoss have got counters to infestors in colossi range and templar feedback.
Patch didn't do too much to change the infestor's situation in ZvP. I still think it's too much of an investment, too hard to micro; a strategy too prone to backfiring.
Whatever people say, you can't keep chaining fungals against a thermal lance army. Maybe in theory you can -- but doesn't work as well in practice. And it just gets harder and harder the longer the game progresses and the bigger the Protoss army gets.
2-3 infestors are always good. More than that commonly proves to be a waste.
ZvT though, infestors do seem very strong and Zergs like darkforce are showing how powerful they can be in the lategame. Broodlords destroy every ground unit, Vikings are supposed to deal with Brood lords (they're really the only thing TErran has to deal with brood lords) but with the DPS boost and increased damage to armor infestors destroy vikings. A lot of Terrans are complaining about infestor BL in ZvT and it does seem extremely powerful, but I think we need to let it play out more before drawing conclusions. For one, it would be cool to see Terrans trying to use ghosts in the late game. EMP on infestors and snipe on Brood lords might turn out to counter this composition or at least do well against it. Ravens also continue to be underused. Considering both infestors and brood lords are slow, HSM could be a pretty good option, and PDD stos broodlord attack.
It's hilarious (and hypocritical at the same time) that you say Zergs are too busy QQing and doing the same old strat to try something new, yet at the same time you conclude infestors are way overpowered and have no counter like 3 weeks after the patch has been out....
Maybe you should herp derp stop sieging tanks beside a planetary at your 3rd and waiting until you max out. See how it can work both ways?
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
Before people start calling for a nerf, id like to see them trying spreading out their units.
Every. Single. Time, someone points out pvz/tvz imbalance protosses and terrans, even some zergs say "Well, maybe zergs should play differently.", yeah? Now its your turn.
Well said, infestors can also be countered EASIER by both other races than casters can for zerg: EMP and Feedback both specifically neutralize casters (one with an AOE, one instant and for only 50 energy). I think folks are just not reacting properly to infestors, in fact if it went back to the 8 second freeze and slower dps I would still be a happy camper because the freeze (other than the aoe nature of the spell) is my favorite part of casting fungal.
the problem with the infestor is that they are good against everything with a range below 9. Fungal against smaller units (you can move around scattered against melee units and in general its really hard to do). neural parasite against bigger units with a range below 9. I think this spell combination on one unit ist a bit to strong and makes it difficult to use units to conter the rest of the zerg army, especially for terran. There is almost no way to get close to the infestors and if you focus them with the tanks you die to the rest of the army ^^. Structures are a good way to deal with a zerg, but the bunker is rarely used ... maybe a build time decrease with the neosteel research, that would be awesome xD. (so early game wouldn't be affected hehe)
So the zerg has a few unit combinations that just destroy a terran if the terran attacks into it. And giving the zerg the time to gather ressources and upgrades is also a bad thing.
But the damage change of fungal will need time for people to adept to it, so i wouldn't say to much now. Right now i have the feeling the infestor will soon get a nerf again, maybe disallow fungal stacking ^^ (would benefit ahhh moments in progames ).
right now fungal is a weak psy storm that costs you 75 energy but allows you to add up endless damage if you are happy with what you caught. I really wonder why people complain about forcefields that they take away the micro *g*.
anyway you could get those chunky mech units that will not get scratched by fungal ... well you can but neural parasite will take care of them if they move 4 ranges away from the next siege tank and unlike yamato you can't stop this with an emp (i think ^.^ )
But as the new patch will make ghosts less gas intensiv i think we will see more of them in tvz. Also autoturrets work wonders against the new infestor builds. And ravens have not to much problems against fungal ... if they would up sm range by one they cold even handle corrupter sniping then .
in short infestors only np ! but you can't build the conters to the other zerg units ^^; or the infestor superior range will poke them down. (the terran superior range isn't what it used to be anymore atleast with the drawbacks they have. B> Flamethrower upgrade for thors :3 range 7 of course ! xD)
When the infestor change went in, I finally felt like I had a "power" unit in zvt that could force my opponent into an uncomfortable situation, especially against marine/tank. Mutalisks by themselves are really quite fragile and evaporate quickly from misclicks. From watching a ton of sheth's replays I could say he straddles the line between infestor/muta, both are needed.. fungals can push around bio armies but mutas can occasionally force an unsiege and cut off reinforcements rather well, and ofc can sometimes make a marine ball wander away from their tanks.
People still have 1-control-group syndrome so fungal seems more powerful than it really is, and we've seen plenty of MLG and NASL games where tanks and colossus snipe off the infestor before it can do any damage.. in Sheth v Rainbow from NASL, the infestors were incredibly short-lived against rainbow's fantastic positioning.
I am just a bronze but from what I can see, fungal growth is much weaker against air units, making it less of a unit to counter the air harassment. the buff to ground battles are something I can't comment on, I am just not good enough to use it effectively
Infestors have deifently gotten alot stronger but me being a terran player just means I might want to target fire them with my tanks, and keep a close eye out, right now it's not TO big a problem because it means no mutas so I still have tanks and dont need to many marines left standing because of that. I've been trying to do MMM with mass drops to stop this kinda play because no muta is no anti air, works well on bigger maps, smaller maps use tanks and maybe even get some banshees later on I've been using banshee's some to snipe off infestors
The more I think about it, the more obvious it is that the ghost change in the upcoming patch is for TvZ. Very hard right now to make factory units and ghosts, because you're just not getting the gas.
EDIT: And medivacs, come to think of it. 2 of those (from a reactor starport) are 200 gas, and you need them if you've got marines against infestors. They're actually essential.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
you aren`t supposed to have enough gas to make all those "key-units". Imagine Zerg could do this and produce Mutas and Ultras while constantly pumping out infestors. When Terran scouts the Zerg going Infestor he can go for Ghost and skip or delay the Thors, cuz there is no immediate need for it.
Damn this post is so funny. Infesters cant kill marine... Dude, u only use infestors for zvt??? i can say tank cant attack muta at all. Does that mean zerg auto win?
I consider them to be way overrated to be honest. In large battles they either can't fungal anything because their range is not big enough, or they put out one fungal each and then die immediately because they stand in front of the army. And that is if they even get that far,since tanks and collossi way outrange them.
In smaller battles they die pretty easily because they get focused.
Not to mention the fact that they're a considerable risk to be taken if you get them. If you get 4 infestors, you really have to make them be worth it, otherwise you just blew away 600 gas (potentially +150 for upgrade +150 for building) for nothing, plus you're leaving a rather huge timing window where you're more vulnerable than usual in your play (they do take a pretty long time to spawn).
They do have their purpose though: They're pretty sick drop and otherwise marine harass defenders, plus they rock against tank-light mech play.
But in my opinion they are in no way the solution to the Protoss death ball like so many people (including me) expected.
By the way, IdrA has already taken back his statement that you quoted in the OP.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
Agree that those compositions are good, but saying nothing can counter them is pretty bold. Not that this is a common or always realistic example, but have you seen mass raven vs that? It's pretty funny. (Masters Zerg).
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
Agree that those compositions are good, but saying nothing can counter them is pretty bold. Not that this is common or always realistic, but have you seen mass raven vs that? It's pretty funny. (Masters Zerg).
You can't use ravens and get HSMs in TvZ. NP a misplaced raven and you end up HSMing your own army. NP range (9) >>> HSM range (6)
It TAKES THREE SNIPES to kill an infestor. Christ. Can people stop saying "omg use snipe". It's an absolutely worthless skill.
The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
Agree that those compositions are good, but saying nothing can counter them is pretty bold. Not that this is common or always realistic, but have you seen mass raven vs that? It's pretty funny. (Masters Zerg).
You can't use ravens and get HSMs in TvZ. NP a misplaced raven and you end up HSMing your own army. NP range (9) >>> HSM range (6)
It TAKES THREE SNIPES to kill an infestor. Christ. Can people stop saying "omg use snipe". It's an absolutely worthless skill.
Yeah, in a vacuum NP>HSM, but in the game you will have tanks on the ground. If they try to NP, they will pop. A good marine, tank, raven, medivac army is really hard to crack with any late game composition as zerg. But I guess its equally difficult for the terran to push into the zerg. I think late game ZvT is harder for Terran but still balanced.
I have FINALLY started using the infestor more comfortably since the patch and I have to say that they don't feel OP at all. They feel... strong.
Now this comes as a shock to most Protoss and Terran because they've been fighting against Zerg with no useful units what-so-ever since release, so in comparison to the rest of the Zerg army, they feel way OP, but when you sit back and look at it objectively, the new infestor is more on-level than anything.
Fungal feels just as good as EMP or Storm.
NP feels about as useful as snipe or feedback, but in a different way.
IT is something that you usually don't WANT to do, but will throw in there to add utility, much like cloak or archon morphing.
Overall, I am quite happy with where the infestor is at this point in time. Oddly enough, the biggest benefit of the fungal change is I don't feel retarded for getting NP now. Funny how that works.
The question for me isn't the damage, it's the fact that they stun units. It's just another really stupid spell (among many) that makes micro impossible. Watching someone fungal the same group of units 2 or 3 times once every 4 seconds until death isn't very climactic. Fungal growth is bad for sc2. It goes with the theme.
Not at all. Even if you get fungals off you're never close to killing the deathball because after the fungal you have no troops left. You need roaches and hydras to kill the deathball that have been raped hard by colossus beams
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
For infestor brood lord ghosts?
For ultras try Thors with strike cannon. Have you really tried everything? I don't see how you can say "absolutely nothing counters them" without exhausting all possibilities first
i think the damage buff vs armored was a little too much but other than that, Z needs infestors to be viable. its a really great aspect of z matchups now
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
Have you tried building units from a starport? Blords and ultras can't look up?
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. Can you fucking READ? We've stated over and over again that it takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
Have you tried building units from a starport? Blords and ultras can't look up?
Fungals + Infested Terrans OWN vikings (remember infested terran benefit from zerg evolution chamber upgrades). Banshees take the same time as a Thor to make. Air TvZ is just not viable.
How about waiting with the imbalance whine until ghosts (I think at this point there is no infestor "imbalance" in ZvP) have been fully explored in the matchup by the pros.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
Blizzard thought storm was overpowered, they were right, now they've given zerg a storm you can't run out of... combine that with no research required, extreme mobility (infestors are super fast, have burrow movement by default, creep bonus, etc...) A tier 2 unit (infestors are 2t, like mutas) should not be able to kill 25 upgraded t1 units with t2 support, without taking some sort of loss, you literally cannot attack a zerg that has infestors and is awake, they'll fungal the marines the instant they try to advance, and then the terran army is dead, if you try to go mech vs infestors, fungal the hellions, neural the thors, gg. If you go ghosts vs infestors, fungal to remove cloack, neural, emp the other ghosts or snipe something to kill the energy. If there was a way for terrans to combat fungal growth, then it might be balanced, but right now the only way to combat fungal growth is to just hope they clump their infestors and let u emp them, which is rare and relies completely on a bad opponent, you might as well ask them to attack move all their drones into your siege line, it's something you can't control. The new ghost change will kinda help improve TvZ, but TvP is a whole different thing, as terran doesn't have any late game gas dump AOE damage, ghosts were the closest thing we had to AOE, now that they're no longer a gas dump, when terran is getting mined out we're screwed and very inefficient. If infestors were immobile like siege tanks, then sure, I'd be fine with the buff, but if you have a unit that's as fast as a roach, costs just 100/150, 2 food, and can kill 25 marines in 4 seconds and then always be able to retreat? well then u have an unkillable unit that completely shuts down every form of direct attack terran has, as well as being able to shut down almost all forms of harass (aside from mb a thor drop). Hopefully blizzard makes fungal growth a projectile, and/or slowly wear off (the slow effect at least). This would make it possible for terrans to actually combat it (protoss have HTs and feedback, they should not be complaining about fungal growth... and come on, collosus are still imba 0.o).
Once your units have been fungaled, you can't do shit about it, you just say to yourself "Well, I better kill the infestors faster next time."
Storm is still too powerful, as is feedback, but at least you can do something about it when storm lands on your army.... And u can kill the retreating HT even if you lose all your units to the storm (most of the time at least). With infestors, you can never kill them unless they're all out of energy at the same time, which is very unlikely due to the timings of energy regen combined with spawn larvae, they should be on a nice little round robin cycle)
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Don't tell me what I do and don't have. Your elitist attitude is not needed. I never said terran should be able to get ghosts tanks and thors, but ghosts are a very weak subsitute at the moment between the threee because of time/gas spent/survivability. Please leave your comments to yourself when you have nothing to contribute but an attitude where you think you are better. When you are probably/almost definatly not. And your attitude alone shows such.
Good post, I agree with you. Infesters are so flimsy if they have tanks or collosi you sack your infestor for a fungal. It's a heavy cost so the damage SHOULD be high. Terrans seem to think fungal has a huge range and the lock is long. if you have tanks, my infesters will die if your marines aren't playing around far from your tank position. Fungal doesn't kill marines without medicavs so they certainly don't if you do have them. Are you saying marines should be able to push out with 0 opposition...come on.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
On April 27 2011 00:42 CatNzHat wrote: Blizzard thought storm was overpowered, they were right, now they've given zerg a storm you can't run out of... combine that with no research required, extreme mobility (infestors are super fast, have burrow movement by default, creep bonus, etc...) A tier 2 unit (infestors are 2t, like mutas) should not be able to kill 25 upgraded t1 units with t2 support, without taking some sort of loss, you literally cannot attack a zerg that has infestors and is awake, they'll fungal the marines the instant they try to advance, and then the terran army is dead, if you try to go mech vs infestors, fungal the hellions, neural the thors, gg. If you go ghosts vs infestors, fungal to remove cloack, neural, emp the other ghosts or snipe something to kill the energy. If there was a way for terrans to combat fungal growth, then it might be balanced, but right now the only way to combat fungal growth is to just hope they clump their infestors and let u emp them, which is rare and relies completely on a bad opponent, you might as well ask them to attack move all their drones into your siege line, it's something you can't control. The new ghost change will kinda help improve TvZ, but TvP is a whole different thing, as terran doesn't have any late game gas dump AOE damage, ghosts were the closest thing we had to AOE, now that they're no longer a gas dump, when terran is getting mined out we're screwed and very inefficient. If infestors were immobile like siege tanks, then sure, I'd be fine with the buff, but if you have a unit that's as fast as a roach, costs just 100/150, 2 food, and can kill 25 marines in 4 seconds and then always be able to retreat? well then u have an unkillable unit that completely shuts down every form of direct attack terran has, as well as being able to shut down almost all forms of harass (aside from mb a thor drop). Hopefully blizzard makes fungal growth a projectile, and/or slowly wear off (the slow effect at least). This would make it possible for terrans to actually combat it (protoss have HTs and feedback, they should not be complaining about fungal growth... and come on, collosus are still imba 0.o).
Once your units have been fungaled, you can't do shit about it, you just say to yourself "Well, I better kill the infestors faster next time."
Storm is still too powerful, as is feedback, but at least you can do something about it when storm lands on your army.... And u can kill the retreating HT even if you lose all your units to the storm (most of the time at least). With infestors, you can never kill them unless they're all out of energy at the same time, which is very unlikely due to the timings of energy regen combined with spawn larvae, they should be on a nice little round robin cycle)
All I see here is "My race is UP, you're race is OP"
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
Ghosts do decently against Infestors, Brood Lords and Ultras because of EMP and Snipe, so it doesn't really matter that much whether they get Infestors or go to Hive, Ghosts will do well vs either. And they aren't that shabby in terms of DPS vs light so having them in your army isn't that much of a hindrance, especially after their gas cost gets reduced.
Wait, did you actually write that Ghosts are countered by Fungal? That's just kind of... wrong.
"Really Too Strong?" Where does that REALLY come from? Oh right.. because every zerg now dominates every lan event and grabs first place in all tournaments with that sick fungal buff... wait...
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Infestors are a joke at the moment vs terran(as has been stated multiple times). They'll become even more prevalent as more and more people switch over from the mutaling style, which is pretty damn good in the first place.
The problem is a fungal destroys infantry way too well. It makes pushing out against zerg next to impossible, which is the exact same problem terran had vs protoss with amulet HTs. Once the game turns into a full tech battle, Terran gets annihilated because their mobilty and transitions are trash compared to the other races.
You basically have to sit behind a siege line or push at an abysmally slow rate, which lets zerg setup and destroy it anyways. I wouldn't have a problem if EMPs still removed maximum energy or if fungal was actually possible to micro against. As it stands, fungal is basically psi storm against marines that you can't move out of.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I think in the current metagame Infestors are OP, BUT, it's not because they are inherently OP, it's just that the other races don't have builds that correctly deal with them yet. Terrans don't get enough Ghosts because there was nothing to EMP previously and too many units that snipe would make a difference, while Protoss ignore feedback (1 HT can kill or at least seriously wound and disable 2 Infestors right when he spawns) because with Colossi you could just A-Move anyways and Storm looks fancier when it's on a group of Zerg units. While i have multiple times defended a maxed push (of Protoss/Terran/Zerg) just with a group of 10-15 infestors, it's not like they can't be dealt with, it's just that the Metagame hasn't developed into the direction that Zerg use Infestors in every matchup. It's just a matter of time until the Game develops in a way that supports dealing with Infestors, it already happens every 10 games or so that i lose a bunch of infestors in a split second to feedback or get hit by EMP that disables half of them.
Until the opponents learn to deal with them, i'll just enjoy my auto-win as soon as i reach 10 Infestors. It's nice to feel OP for a while and be honest, going Mutalisks every game was boring, wasn't it?
Now go and find solutions to deal with them, folks.
On April 27 2011 00:50 liewec wrote: "Really Too Strong?" Where does that REALLY come from? Oh right.. because every zerg now dominates every lan event and grabs first place in all tournaments with that sick fungal buff... wait...
Guessing you didn't read the post then. I was arguing that it wasn't too strong but asking firstly if the majority of people do think it is, and for anyone who does think it is, why they think it is. I stated that twice clearly.
I haven't had enough time to consider everything in 100 or something posts to respond properly yet though, but please read the post before replying to it.
As a terran player (high gold), who watched every single GSl and TSL from Feb onwards, I feel that the infestor patch is an improvement to the game. I think zerg now should not have any complaints against terran, since july_zerg's matches I feel TvZ has become very balanced matchup.
However, I feel blizzard should address the PvZ matchup, maybe extra damage against shields as well.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Don't tell me what I do and don't have. Your elitist attitude is not needed. I never said terran should be able to get ghosts tanks and thors, but ghosts are a very weak subsitute at the moment between the threee because of time/gas spent/survivability. Please leave your comments to yourself when you have nothing to contribute but an attitude where you think you are better. When you are probably/almost definatly not. And your attitude alone shows such.
Aren't you the one that show a bad attitude saying all the zerg pro lose but don't know why ? Basically you are saying they are idiots.
Pre patch, the counter to infestor play was to just build fast 2 fact and pump out tank. Then you would advance slowly toward the zerg base and not forget to let your marine behind tanks because infestor are armored and have 80 hp so they get killed in 2 shots. Overall, without muta, it's really hard to survive a terran marine tank heavy push on two bases (and by tank heavy, i mean 2 fact pump out tanks). That's why I just go muta first and then switch on infestor: it feels more safe against any kind of tank heavy play. I think most of the zerg pro actually do the same, I have yet to see a zerg star going for infestor play and not making any muta before on map such as meta or xelnaga ( of course things are different on bigger maps like tal darim).
I just don't understand terran player that says "infestor counter all terran units", because the tank just counter infestor ? Why not trying to advance slowly ?
I think ghosts are not cost efficient. They should have speed upgrade or something, they always get left behind on retreat and die, and they are so expensive.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
I hate the way yoou say number three. No they dont counter tanks, no because counter is the wrong word.
they are good, because if you spawn INFESTED TERRANS on them, they cant hit them, and get splashed by other tanks. so in a way they rock against tanks.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
I feel that the only change if any that should be applied is to not force the units to not move due to fungal. It can reduce movement speed by a lot that's fine but to force them to not move is frustrating and removes the option to micro. I would like to be able to pull back some hurt units and try to protect them and I would also like to be able to move them away when banelings come rolling in. Thats all.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
As a Z player, I think a lot of the T frustrations here are pretty justified...
Infestors have pretty ridiculous synergy with Zerg T3: BL + infestor + queens for transfuse (or whatever ground army you have) is absurdly strong, as is ultra + infestor.
ZvP, on the other hand, I'm not so sure that the infestor is working well enough. I haven't had a ton of success with fungaling the deathball--then again, my control isn't great, so NFI.
On April 27 2011 00:07 Griffith` wrote: Biggest problem with infestors is not so much the unit by itself, but rather the INSANE synergy it has with all late game zerg units.
TvZ:
infestor + blord = death infestor + ultra = death
There is absolutely nothing that can counter the above combinations. (Masters Terran)
I agree with this. Particularly the Infestor + BL. Making a lot of Ghosts, especially if they become cheaper, might be the way to go, though.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
I hate the way yoou say number three. No they dont counter tanks, no because counter is the wrong word.
they are good, because if you spawn INFESTED TERRANS on them, they cant hit them, and get splashed by other tanks. so in a way they rock against tanks.
Yeah I can agree with that but there is a lot of ways to counter it: - Scan as soon as you see an infested terran popping out - bring VCS with you to repair, because 2-3 tank shot on a close infested terran will not kill your tanks - Find the right timing attack so that the infestor count is low, in a way that every infested terran casted is one less fungal to worry about.
If you are talking about end game, then I think at this point in the game if you don't have enough ghost it's just too late. Ghost kill broodlord quite good.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
If the infestor has enough energy that he requires 2 emps, why don't you have enough energy to emp twice?
And why does every Terran player refuse to acknowledge the utility of snipe? Hitting pretty much anything except a Zergling with snipe is a win.
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
I don't ask to make emp damageable . I'm just sayin they dont do any damage instead of infestor and HT . dont tell my what terran units has . I can tell you all the good one that Protoss have too .
The point with infestor is are to much of an investment to counter them with units heavy in gaz. Mech are not an alternative with 30 % more damageable . Infestor ling is really cheap vs all the thing I have to buy . and later in in the game infestor brood lord is GG . I'm pretty happy that zerg has an alternative and a good caster . But what it's pissing me off It's blizzard made change to the detriment of the other races. Why in hell the infestor buff it was to help Zerg vs Protoss but everybody knew that it would be better Vs Terran and Blizzard haven't take in consideration this .
Re-fungals are extremely gross. Storm was powerful, but you could at least retreat out of it taking moderate damage in the process. Fungal is a slightly weaker storm but without the possibility of retreat, so it inevitably ends up doing even more damage. Not to mention infestors are actually FAST on creep and can burrow. They only need to fungal twice in about 3 seconds under the cover of lings to have an entire MM ball dead.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
If the infestor has enough energy that he requires 2 emps, why don't you have enough energy to emp twice?
And why does every Terran player refuse to acknowledge the utility of snipe? Hitting pretty much anything except a Zergling with snipe is a win.
Don't forget that 1 Ghost can hit 6 Infestors with 1 EMP, so 2 Ghosts can double-EMP them for half the Gas investment (After 1.3.3 even 1/3 of the Gas)
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
Funny, infestors are countered by Tanks, hellions, thors, marines if you just control them properly. perhaps scan ahead so that you don't get shocked if your clumped up marines are fungaled.
Don't just think of units to use for counters, there are other ways.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
If the infestor has enough energy that he requires 2 emps, why don't you have enough energy to emp twice?
And why does every Terran player refuse to acknowledge the utility of snipe? Hitting pretty much anything except a Zergling with snipe is a win.
Don't forget that 1 Ghost can hit 6 Infestors with 1 EMP, so 2 Ghosts can double-EMP them for half the Gas investment (After 1.3.3 even 1/3 of the Gas)
If the terran should be splitting his marines/hellions/marauders/everything, the zerg should also be splitting his infestors, if 1 ghost is hitting 6 infestors that is the zergs fault
The thing is, I think ZvT is Zerg favored, but I think this has been the case for some time now. But if you look at it, it's really not infestor that make the difference: they completly destroy bio if it is not well used, and is still pretty good against a bad tank control (if the tank are in a big ball for exemple). But it's more about the entire match up that is hard for Terran, and infestor is not really the problem in my point of view. They are not overpowered at all, just know how to use tank well, know when to pop out ghost.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Don't tell me what I do and don't have. Your elitist attitude is not needed. I never said terran should be able to get ghosts tanks and thors, but ghosts are a very weak subsitute at the moment between the threee because of time/gas spent/survivability. Please leave your comments to yourself when you have nothing to contribute but an attitude where you think you are better. When you are probably/almost definatly not. And your attitude alone shows such.
Aren't you the one that show a bad attitude saying all the zerg pro lose but don't know why ? Basically you are saying they are idiots.
Pre patch, the counter to infestor play was to just build fast 2 fact and pump out tank. Then you would advance slowly toward the zerg base and not forget to let your marine behind tanks because infestor are armored and have 80 hp so they get killed in 2 shots. Overall, without muta, it's really hard to survive a terran marine tank heavy push on two bases (and by tank heavy, i mean 2 fact pump out tanks). That's why I just go muta first and then switch on infestor: it feels more safe against any kind of tank heavy play. I think most of the zerg pro actually do the same, I have yet to see a zerg star going for infestor play and not making any muta before on map such as meta or xelnaga ( of course things are different on bigger maps like tal darim).
I just don't understand terran player that says "infestor counter all terran units", because the tank just counter infestor ? Why not trying to advance slowly ?
I never said anything remotely like that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Funny, infestors are countered by Tanks, hellions, thors, marines if you just control them properly. perhaps scan ahead so that you don't get shocked if your clumped up marines are fungaled.
Don't just think of units to use for counters, there are other ways. [/QUOTE]
infestors are not countered by any of the units you mentioned unless you do not control your infestors properly... last time i checked fungal has greater range than marines/hellions rendering them completely useless even with tanks behind them
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
seriously, i may sound like a troll here and might get banned, but it's so supersweet to hear T / P players complaining they have to specifically REACT to something the zerg does. 90 % of Zerg game play is finding out how to react best to all the shenanigans of Protoss and Terrans.
If it is nerfed or not in the future, i enjoy the tears of the unwilling-to-adapt, used to all around units like marine / stalker, Protoss and Terran players, until then .
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Don't tell me what I do and don't have. Your elitist attitude is not needed. I never said terran should be able to get ghosts tanks and thors, but ghosts are a very weak subsitute at the moment between the threee because of time/gas spent/survivability. Please leave your comments to yourself when you have nothing to contribute but an attitude where you think you are better. When you are probably/almost definatly not. And your attitude alone shows such.
Aren't you the one that show a bad attitude saying all the zerg pro lose but don't know why ? Basically you are saying they are idiots.
Pre patch, the counter to infestor play was to just build fast 2 fact and pump out tank. Then you would advance slowly toward the zerg base and not forget to let your marine behind tanks because infestor are armored and have 80 hp so they get killed in 2 shots. Overall, without muta, it's really hard to survive a terran marine tank heavy push on two bases (and by tank heavy, i mean 2 fact pump out tanks). That's why I just go muta first and then switch on infestor: it feels more safe against any kind of tank heavy play. I think most of the zerg pro actually do the same, I have yet to see a zerg star going for infestor play and not making any muta before on map such as meta or xelnaga ( of course things are different on bigger maps like tal darim).
I just don't understand terran player that says "infestor counter all terran units", because the tank just counter infestor ? Why not trying to advance slowly ?
I never said anything remotely like that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
i quote you again
high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose
How is that not mocking the zerg players ? I wonder.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
Banelings are INSANELY cost-effective against everything. They do massive amounts of damage to buildings, have amazing mobility, can be burrowed, can be dropped into mineral lines with almost no cost.
Can you say the same for a ghost?
Sure ghosts may be able to land a nuke against a retarded Zerg that doesn't get detection Sure ghosts may be able to cloak, just how many drones can a ghost kill before it gets owned by an overseer (and don't say you can snipe overseers either -_- they have absurd amounts of HP that you'd need about a 175 energy ghost to kill an overseer).
Oh, marines are also countered by:
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
On April 27 2011 01:16 lahey wrote: infestors are not countered by any of the units you mentioned unless you do not control your infestors properly... last time i checked fungal has greater range than marines/hellions rendering them completely useless even with tanks behind them
Don't run in with 20 marines in a clump to pick off infestors, run with small groups of fast units so that even if they get fungaled, it's worth it for you.
Also, drop play is very good against infestors since they are so slow.
Funny, infestors are countered by Tanks, hellions, thors, marines if you just control them properly. perhaps scan ahead so that you don't get shocked if your clumped up marines are fungaled.
Don't just think of units to use for counters, there are other ways.
infestors are not countered by any of the units you mentioned unless you do not control your infestors properly... last time i checked fungal has greater range than marines/hellions rendering them completely useless even with tanks behind them[/QUOTE]
Don't run in with 20 marines in a clump to pick off infestors, run with small groups of fast units so that even if they get fungaled, it's worth it for you.
Also, drop play is very good against infestors since they are so slow.[/QUOTE]
this is implying that the zerg is playing w/ 1 control group, if the zerg is smart they can just leave 1 infestor at main or other expands and fungal the drop and wait for speedlings to clean it up considering the drop won't be moving/alive if it gets fungaled twice
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
I've always said that the zerg had been given storm after the fungal buff.
Really, it DOESN'T help against the deathball. All it does is make terran units die easier and turn ZvZ into roach/infestor. Although I really like the new ZvZ, on ZvT I can clearly see that, personally, it is too strong.
The reason it was buffed in the first place was to deal with the deathball, and it doesn't do that job all that well.
But having that said, I haven't met a single terran yet that got ghosts out soon enough. So maybe high diamond / mid master terran haven't caught onto the changes yet.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords. It's extremely difficult to queue up 6 snipes per blord given the snipe mechanic. Shift-sniping is very difficult as you need to holdfire as well.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords.
You can kill brood lords super fast, that's pretty good.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords.
150 mana on a 150 gas unit to kill a unit that cost 250 gas, pretty cost effective I'd say.
Remember in Brood War Zerg had Queen (100g) with their 150 mana Spawn Broodling to one shot Siege Tank (100g)? This isn't any different.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Infestors destroy tank lines, if you spread they can pick one off with neural or if some are grouped they can just throw shit at them from underground. Infestors hard counter marine tank which is the only viable option terran has to deal with the ling/bling the zerg is throwing at you also. Then when broodlords come out you just have to hit one of 100 fungals on a viking group and you kill all of them. Why fungal needs insane dps and a root is beyond me it's worse than storm.
Infestor + T3 is pretty strong, but the fact you're relying on good fungals to be able to actually use these units effectively may point to bigger problems with these late game compositions. I mean, ultralisks in most situations are just painfully bad, fungals at least make them somewhat bearable to use, and even then its quite sketchy and I still wouldn't do it unless I am obviously ahead.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Don't tell me what I do and don't have. Your elitist attitude is not needed. I never said terran should be able to get ghosts tanks and thors, but ghosts are a very weak subsitute at the moment between the threee because of time/gas spent/survivability. Please leave your comments to yourself when you have nothing to contribute but an attitude where you think you are better. When you are probably/almost definatly not. And your attitude alone shows such.
Aren't you the one that show a bad attitude saying all the zerg pro lose but don't know why ? Basically you are saying they are idiots.
Pre patch, the counter to infestor play was to just build fast 2 fact and pump out tank. Then you would advance slowly toward the zerg base and not forget to let your marine behind tanks because infestor are armored and have 80 hp so they get killed in 2 shots. Overall, without muta, it's really hard to survive a terran marine tank heavy push on two bases (and by tank heavy, i mean 2 fact pump out tanks). That's why I just go muta first and then switch on infestor: it feels more safe against any kind of tank heavy play. I think most of the zerg pro actually do the same, I have yet to see a zerg star going for infestor play and not making any muta before on map such as meta or xelnaga ( of course things are different on bigger maps like tal darim).
I just don't understand terran player that says "infestor counter all terran units", because the tank just counter infestor ? Why not trying to advance slowly ?
I never said anything remotely like that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose
How is that not mocking the zerg players ? I wonder.
LOL, that was someone else in the thread man. Not me, l2read
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
and just so you can facepalm again On April 26 2011 23:07toadyywrote:
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
Don't tell me what I do and don't have. Your elitist attitude is not needed. I never said terran should be able to get ghosts tanks and thors, but ghosts are a very weak subsitute at the moment between the threee because of time/gas spent/survivability. Please leave your comments to yourself when you have nothing to contribute but an attitude where you think you are better. When you are probably/almost definatly not. And your attitude alone shows such.
On April 26 2011 23:07 toadyy wrote: Ling Infestor is borderline broken in ZvT and ZvP, high level zergs for some reason don't even consider Infestors they play Roach Hydra the whole game and wonder why they lose. In ZvT Infestor counters every Terran unit in the game, impossible to counter unless zerg herp derps and 1 control groups his infestors with his main army.
1: Wrong 2: That's because you don't have the level they have so you don't know. 3:Sure infestor counter tanks... ho wait!
He is actually fairly correct. Fungals are far to strong vs bio. And burrow'd infestor infested marine drops on tank line add to their current strength. With the recent gas nerf on ghosts next patch though I think it will even it out. As of right now though..... its kind of rediculous. Going ghosts in tvz is so very far away and so very gas intesive you basically need to commit two gysers to constantly produce 1 ghost. leaving you tank and thorless more or less.
No he is wrong, infestor are not broken in ZvP, high level zerg are not idiots that "wonder why they lose". In ZvT infestor don't counter tanks. Period, you have nothing else to add. Just don't bio, or play better / split them / advance slowly with your tank line.
Go ghost when you have 6+ gaz geyser ?
Infestors destroy tank lines, if you spread they can pick one off with neural or if some are grouped they can just throw shit at them from underground. Infestors hard counter marine tank which is the only viable option terran has to deal with the ling/bling the zerg is throwing at you also. Then when broodlords come out you just have to hit one of 100 fungals on a viking group and you kill all of them. Why fungal needs insane dps and a root is beyond me it's worse than storm.
Maybe your whole tank line wouldn't get decimated if you put up ONE turret next them, perhaps?
Infestors don't hard counter Marine / Tank, that's just an insane statement.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords.
By your logic:
It takes 2 (150 energy) fungals to kill a marine. Otherwise infestors do zero damage against marines. I don't see how that makes infestors "amazing" against marines.
I preferred the old infestors in ZvT tbh. They were way better at stalling armies to buy you time to get more supply, and were far stronger against drops since you could fungal medivac and then pull an infested terran or two.
It's really just the fact that people actually USE them now and players don't know how to deal with it.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords.
150 mana on a 150 gas unit to kill a unit that cost 250 gas, pretty cost effective I'd say.
Remember in Brood War Zerg had Queen (100g) with their 150 mana Spawn Broodling to one shot Siege Tank (100g)? This isn't any different.
Except in BW queen had ZERO utility outside of spawn broodlings on tanks, and NO ONE (barring the 3-4 ppl using it for lulz) used queens in ZvT. B- Terran.
150 energy lol, it takes 3 minutes to store up enough energy. Energy regen rate is 0.5625 energy per second. By the time your ghosts have enough energy your whole base is dead.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
Banelings are INSANELY cost-effective against everything. They do massive amounts of damage to buildings, have amazing mobility, can be burrowed, can be dropped into mineral lines with almost no cost.
Can you say the same for a ghost?
Sure ghosts may be able to land a nuke against a retarded Zerg that doesn't get detection Sure ghosts may be able to cloak, just how many drones can a ghost kill before it gets owned by an overseer (and don't say you can snipe overseers either -_- they have absurd amounts of HP that you'd need about a 175 energy ghost to kill an overseer).
Oh, marines are also countered by:
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
Yeah banelings are super cost effective against armored units my bad. And no, you're right, it's not like Ghosts have an ability which does 45 damage to every single zerg unit for 25 energy - they're not cost effective at all.
Anyhow I won't sit here and tell you how to play your race like I know better than you, I'll just tell you what every Terran and Protoss has been telling Zerg since the beta: figure it out for your own damn self. If you're not going to even consider anyones suggestions of unit compositions or strategies etc. there's no reason to give suggestions at all. Just do yourself a favour and don't lie to yourself about facts.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords. It's extremely difficult to queue up 6 snipes per blord given the snipe mechanic. Shift-sniping is very difficult as you need to holdfire as well.
Yeah they really ought to fix the snipe mechanic tbh, it makes snipe much worse than it should be just because of how stupidly hard it is to get a proper shift-queue.
I think your arguments are from the perspective of a Zerg player and, therefore, strongly zerg biased.
Your entire post is riddled with strawmen that you subsequently tear down because... you know.. they're strawmen... that's how they work. It's really horrible logic.
The biggest problem with Infestors right now, is that once you land a fungal growth, you prevent your opponent from doing anything with those units, for as long as you have energy. It's this limiting of micro coupled with an absurd amount of guaranteed damage that is too strong.
The Infestor should be powerful spell caster used to support the rest of the zerg army. As it stands, it is used AS the Zerg army while zergling / baneling / roach have become the support units.
Imagine if a Protoss came charging at you with 12 high templars, and 10 zealots. You wouldn't be too intimidated. Or if a Terran came running into your natural with 12 ghosts (lol) and 20 marines. You'd clean up either of those forces pretty easily. AND THERES NO WAY FOR THEM TO RETREAT.
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:14 Lafonzo wrote: The problem with infestor as terran is they counter every thing . And to counter them You need, ghost,raven and tank . It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Zerg player just have to A move and fungal and terran to spam apm like shit to survive .
The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
Banelings are INSANELY cost-effective against everything. They do massive amounts of damage to buildings, have amazing mobility, can be burrowed, can be dropped into mineral lines with almost no cost.
Can you say the same for a ghost?
Sure ghosts may be able to land a nuke against a retarded Zerg that doesn't get detection Sure ghosts may be able to cloak, just how many drones can a ghost kill before it gets owned by an overseer (and don't say you can snipe overseers either -_- they have absurd amounts of HP that you'd need about a 175 energy ghost to kill an overseer).
Oh, marines are also countered by:
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
Yeah banelings are super cost effective against armored units my bad. And no, you're right, it's not like Ghosts have an ability which does 45 damage to every single zerg unit for 25 energy - they're not cost effective at all.
Anyhow I won't sit here and tell you how to play your race like I know better than you, I'll just tell you what every Terran and Protoss has been telling Zerg since the beta: figure it out for your own damn self. If you're not going to even consider anyones suggestions of unit compositions or strategies etc. there's no reason to give suggestions at all. Just do yourself a favour and don't lie to yourself about facts.
This is what pisses me off the most,
Zergs have NEVER figured anything out save the brainless "technique" of magic box muta vs thors. All they really did was cry for buffs and they got them.
Roach range buff? Check BBS Nerf? Check Reaper Nerf? Check Infestor Buff? Check Siege Tank Nerf? Check Stimpack Increase Time? Check Hatch/Lair/Hive Increased HP? Check No more bottom ramp pylon block? Check Medivac Nerf? Check
I dont know, infestors are really strong vs protoss, when combined with lings. Just as in PvT, it's harder to prevent HTs from being sniped, placing storm than it is for the terran to counter the HTs with EMP. Same with infestors, they are alot harder to get to and feedback than they can place a fungal and burrow.
They do insane damage against everything protoss aswell.
infestors are not countered by any of the units you mentioned unless you do not control your infestors properly... last time i checked fungal has greater range than marines/hellions rendering them completely useless even with tanks behind them
Don't run in with 20 marines in a clump to pick off infestors, run with small groups of fast units so that even if they get fungaled, it's worth it for you.
Also, drop play is very good against infestors since they are so slow.
this is implying that the zerg is playing w/ 1 control group, if the zerg is smart they can just leave 1 infestor at main or other expands and fungal the drop and wait for speedlings to clean it up considering the drop won't be moving/alive if it gets fungaled twice
Zerg can also just leave 10 Zerglings at each of their expansions to stop any of your drop play hard. Since Zergling is the fist combat unit Zerg can build, why are you even using drop against Zerg then?
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
Banelings are INSANELY cost-effective against everything. They do massive amounts of damage to buildings, have amazing mobility, can be burrowed, can be dropped into mineral lines with almost no cost.
Can you say the same for a ghost?
Sure ghosts may be able to land a nuke against a retarded Zerg that doesn't get detection Sure ghosts may be able to cloak, just how many drones can a ghost kill before it gets owned by an overseer (and don't say you can snipe overseers either -_- they have absurd amounts of HP that you'd need about a 175 energy ghost to kill an overseer).
Oh, marines are also countered by:
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
Yeah banelings are super cost effective against armored units my bad. And no, you're right, it's not like Ghosts have an ability which does 45 damage to every single zerg unit for 25 energy - they're not cost effective at all.
Anyhow I won't sit here and tell you how to play your race like I know better than you, I'll just tell you what every Terran and Protoss has been telling Zerg since the beta: figure it out for your own damn self. If you're not going to even consider anyones suggestions of unit compositions or strategies etc. there's no reason to give suggestions at all. Just do yourself a favour and don't lie to yourself about facts.
This is what pisses me off the most,
Zergs have NEVER figured anything out save the brainless "technique" of magic box muta vs thors. All they really did was cry for buffs and they got them.
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
Banelings are INSANELY cost-effective against everything. They do massive amounts of damage to buildings, have amazing mobility, can be burrowed, can be dropped into mineral lines with almost no cost.
Can you say the same for a ghost?
Sure ghosts may be able to land a nuke against a retarded Zerg that doesn't get detection Sure ghosts may be able to cloak, just how many drones can a ghost kill before it gets owned by an overseer (and don't say you can snipe overseers either -_- they have absurd amounts of HP that you'd need about a 175 energy ghost to kill an overseer).
Oh, marines are also countered by:
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
Yeah banelings are super cost effective against armored units my bad. And no, you're right, it's not like Ghosts have an ability which does 45 damage to every single zerg unit for 25 energy - they're not cost effective at all.
Anyhow I won't sit here and tell you how to play your race like I know better than you, I'll just tell you what every Terran and Protoss has been telling Zerg since the beta: figure it out for your own damn self. If you're not going to even consider anyones suggestions of unit compositions or strategies etc. there's no reason to give suggestions at all. Just do yourself a favour and don't lie to yourself about facts.
This is what pisses me off the most,
Zergs have NEVER figured anything out save the brainless "technique" of magic box muta vs thors. All they really did was cry for buffs and they got them.
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Yeah I wish I didn't have to make banelings against marines because they're pretty useless against tanks and thors, obviously this makes marines overpowered as now I can't get 40 mutas super early
Banelings are INSANELY cost-effective against everything. They do massive amounts of damage to buildings, have amazing mobility, can be burrowed, can be dropped into mineral lines with almost no cost.
Can you say the same for a ghost?
Sure ghosts may be able to land a nuke against a retarded Zerg that doesn't get detection Sure ghosts may be able to cloak, just how many drones can a ghost kill before it gets owned by an overseer (and don't say you can snipe overseers either -_- they have absurd amounts of HP that you'd need about a 175 energy ghost to kill an overseer).
Oh, marines are also countered by:
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
Yeah banelings are super cost effective against armored units my bad. And no, you're right, it's not like Ghosts have an ability which does 45 damage to every single zerg unit for 25 energy - they're not cost effective at all.
Anyhow I won't sit here and tell you how to play your race like I know better than you, I'll just tell you what every Terran and Protoss has been telling Zerg since the beta: figure it out for your own damn self. If you're not going to even consider anyones suggestions of unit compositions or strategies etc. there's no reason to give suggestions at all. Just do yourself a favour and don't lie to yourself about facts.
This is what pisses me off the most,
Zergs have NEVER figured anything out save the brainless "technique" of magic box muta vs thors. All they really did was cry for buffs and they got them.
Yeah, I agree, zergs have always complained about nerfs instead of actually figuring something out. People telling zerg to stop QQing didnt appear for no reason you know.
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:31 Batch wrote: [quote] The problem with ghosts as protoss is they counter every thing. And to counter them You need, sentry, observer and colossos. It's a lot of gaz for a unit . Another factor is Terran player just have to stim, A move and EMP and protoss to spam apm like shit to survive .
See, this could be done for your race as well.
Siege tanks got 4 units longer range than infestors. Ghosts can snipe for 45 damage (infestors got 90 health). Cloaked banshees can snipe infestors fast. Battlecruiser can probably take down one or two infestors as well...
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords.
150 mana on a 150 gas unit to kill a unit that cost 250 gas, pretty cost effective I'd say.
Remember in Brood War Zerg had Queen (100g) with their 150 mana Spawn Broodling to one shot Siege Tank (100g)? This isn't any different.
Except in BW queen had ZERO utility outside of spawn broodlings on tanks, and NO ONE (barring the 3-4 ppl using it for lulz) used queens in ZvT. B- Terran.
150 energy lol, it takes 3 minutes to store up enough energy. Energy regen rate is 0.5625 energy per second. By the time your ghosts have enough energy your whole base is dead.
Where have you been during the latest MSL my BW friend?
Idra didnt say theyre not too good, he said theyre not as good as he expected. he said before the patch that it was potentially game-breaking, but now after the patch he says theyre not AS good as he was thinking, but they are still good. Just wanted to clear that up.
On April 27 2011 01:38 Griffith` wrote: This is what pisses me off the most,
Zergs have NEVER figured anything out save the brainless "technique" of magic box muta vs thors. All they really did was cry for buffs and they got them.
But with all these buffs and nerfs, ZvT is pretty damn balanced at the moment which would tell you that these changes were justified after alot of time. It took a really long time for blizzard to change most of these things because they weren't sure if it was just whines or legitimate complaints.
Terrans should atleast try to adapt since even if a change would come down the line, it would probably take a long time for it to come.
On April 27 2011 01:38 Griffith` wrote: This is what pisses me off the most,
Zergs have NEVER figured anything out save the brainless "technique" of magic box muta vs thors. All they really did was cry for buffs and they got them.
But with all these buffs and nerfs, ZvT is pretty damn balanced at the moment which would tell you that these changes were justified after alot of time. It took a really long time for blizzard to change most of these things because they weren't sure if it was just whines or legitimate complaints.
Terrans should atleast try to adapt since even if a change would come down the line, it would probably take a long time for it to come.
Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game.
Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, and even cracklngs that get a good surround
Neither roaches, neither ultra and neither cracklings. I heard turrets are useful against burrowed units such as the infestors. Infestors are far from being op. Use emp. -_-"
The funny thing is that the infestor buff what supposed to help against mainly stalkers or other heavy units. But what it actually did is hardcountering marines, changing ZvZ a bit (buts it's mirror so who cares) and not being used against protoss. So i'm sure an other change could be done, not nerfing it but maybe reverting it back to 8seconds while buffing damage against heavy units a bit.
They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
On April 27 2011 01:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote: They already have a ghost buff coming >_>
Blizzard was awfully quick to hear the Terrans then, I suppose.
The ghost "buff" isn't really that much of a buff, I and most Terrans will still always get a tank over a ghost. Otherwise there is no way to deal with sling/bling. SC2 AI surrounds much much better than BW and without splash, TvZ is impossible. 100 gas for a unit that might drain 100 energy coupled with absurdly difficult to use snipe? uh. no thanks.
Except ghosts never actually kill anything. Ghosts's EMP is a one time deal and half your units have less than 70 shields. Fungals can be chained endlessly.
Siege tanks have 4 range extra range only if they have spotting vision. Otherwise its plus 2 range. This means your real leeway is only about 2 range.
PS. It takes 3 snipes (75 energy) to kill an infestor because of the +1 health regen.
A protoss army without shields is a dead army against an equal sized terran army.
It doesn't matter if siege tanks have 4 or 2 extra range since the damage is instant and a few siege tanks can completely deny infestors from getting in range.
If you stay one upgrade ahead of your zerg opponent you will be able to 2 shot with ghost snipes.
An EMPed protoss army can re-treat and regen its shields, a fungaled terran army can't.
Snipes and other spells don't benefit from weapon upgrades. If you don't know this, you are probably below diamond.
The extra 4 vs 2 range is a huge difference. If you don't think range matters, lets take away the roach range buff. Note that if the Terran player does have a massive number of siege tanks, Zergs can just toss infested terran cocoons into marine balls to deal damage.
Point is, infestors do far too much damage and is far too versatile. It is a unit with no weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 00:50 .Enigma. wrote:
On April 27 2011 00:42 Lafonzo wrote: [quote]
These units are all counter by fungul . and cost a shit load of gaz. Raven should be a good counter to these if seeker missile would be better. well infestor had just get an Hp boost anyway .At the end you can survive and manage to counter them but in my opinion you need to much of an investment to counter them. Another point is to scout them to .You see an infestation pit it doesn't mean He goes for infestor He maybe just tech up so often your taken off guard by them .
Emp don't do any damage like storm or fungul. and no terran dont have to just A moove vs Toss. You have to postion you viking,using emp, pdd,stim and spread your units in an arc to survive .
You have tanks, blue flame hellions, thors, marines with stim and all that good stuff that does your damage. You can't have EMP to do damage aswell,
You don't need too much of an investment to "counter" them, that's like saying it's too much of an investment for me to counter ravens, since the Hunter Seeker Missile counters all my units when they're in a clump which means that I need more then just the "right" unit to be able to beat someone who has a ton of ravens.
It's the same thing with infestors where it makes you require more then just the right units but you also need to control your units well which is a good thing for the game.
Funny, tanks, hellions, thors, marines, all the good stuff, they are all countered by infestors. You can DODGE HSMs so easily if you have over 50 apm, not to mention dangers of missile drag. HSMs aint got nothing on Irradiate.
I like how you opened your post with Ghosts, then completely forgot about them when you concluded that the Infestor is a unit "with no weakness".
EMP the Infestors.
It's not a weakness if you force Terran to make a unit that has zero utility aside of infestors (not to mention at times you will probably need 2+ emps to drain the energy of a single infestor.).
Griffith, I will tell you something that might makes you all wet (it made me wet).
IdrA said that he was watching BRAT_OK stream one night for some reason, and saw him produce a bunch of ghost to kill broodlord. Ghost are great against broodlord.
They have utility aside of infestors, it's just that you are not aware of it yet.
It takes 6 (150 energy) snipes to kill a broodlord. Otherwise they do peanuts for damage against blords. I don't see how that makes ghosts "amazing" against blords.
150 mana on a 150 gas unit to kill a unit that cost 250 gas, pretty cost effective I'd say.
Remember in Brood War Zerg had Queen (100g) with their 150 mana Spawn Broodling to one shot Siege Tank (100g)? This isn't any different.
Except in BW queen had ZERO utility outside of spawn broodlings on tanks, and NO ONE (barring the 3-4 ppl using it for lulz) used queens in ZvT. B- Terran.
150 energy lol, it takes 3 minutes to store up enough energy. Energy regen rate is 0.5625 energy per second. By the time your ghosts have enough energy your whole base is dead.
Where have you been during the latest MSL my BW friend?
2/3Hatch-Muta will is still the standard, one or two rare instances in MSL isn't really a good example. Most TvZs is still essentially SK Terran vs 2/3Hatch Muta, with tanks sprinkled in, and trying to beat the pre-defiler timings.
I dont get the whole "zerg" is struggling argument.
Terran is already the least played race in Masters and Diamond in North America and Europe. Korea is still a Terran-fest, admittedly, just more of a cultural thing since most BW bonjwas were Terran.
On April 27 2011 01:37 Moody wrote: I think your arguments are from the perspective of a Zerg player and, therefore, strongly zerg biased.
Your entire post is riddled with strawmen that you subsequently tear down because... you know.. they're strawmen... that's how they work. It's really horrible logic.
The biggest problem with Infestors right now, is that once you land a fungal growth, you prevent your opponent from doing anything with those units, for as long as you have energy. It's this limiting of micro coupled with an absurd amount of guaranteed damage that is too strong.
The Infestor should be powerful spell caster used to support the rest of the zerg army. As it stands, it is used AS the Zerg army while zergling / baneling / roach have become the support units.
Imagine if a Protoss came charging at you with 12 high templars, and 10 zealots. You wouldn't be too intimidated. Or if a Terran came running into your natural with 12 ghosts (lol) and 20 marines. You'd clean up either of those forces pretty easily. AND THERES NO WAY FOR THEM TO RETREAT.
Sounds quite a bit like sentries. prevents you from moving? check ppl using it as their main army? check can keep you stuck till it runs out of energy? check prevents you to retreat? check The only thing that infestors got that it does damage as well but then again, the infestor is supposed to be a tier higher then sentries and it cost more gas.
It's funny that the moment zerg actually get something decent to play around with ppl instantly want to nerf it. I have yet to see complete tournament domination by fungals btw while i seen quite a bit of force field domination.
On April 27 2011 01:53 Griffith` wrote: I dont get the whole "zerg" is struggling argument.
Terran is already the least played race in Masters and Diamond in North America and Europe. Korea is still a Terran-fest, admittedly, just more of a cultural thing since most BW bonjwas were Terran.
No one (I think) is saying that Zerg is struggling in ZvT at the moment though, I feel that it's pretty damn balanced.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe.
What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away.
I don't think fungal is overpowered - but I find it to be uninteresting. When I snare a pack of mutas or marines or medivacs etc. it feels wierd to be able to spam more fungals on those units, effectively killing them without giving the other player any way to react.
In terms of giving the other player a chance to avoid fungal (which is more entertaining for both players and spectators) I think that they should bring back the projectile animation for fungal so it can be dodged, or make it so that instead of immobilizing units, it slows them down 80-90% so that they can be split, saving a few of them from subsequent fungals.
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe.
What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away.
Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers.
Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods.
Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please.
I personally think that they are a bit too good for what their use should be. It should be for like initiating or getting a slightly upper hand because of how you can use your spells. (Like sentrys/hts/ghosts) But they are putting out a good amount of damage where you don't need a lot of back, just some amount of clean up units to actually win substantially. I think they do need a nerf with a buff of another mid tier unit or a whole other unit.
infestors are not countered by any of the units you mentioned unless you do not control your infestors properly... last time i checked fungal has greater range than marines/hellions rendering them completely useless even with tanks behind them
Don't run in with 20 marines in a clump to pick off infestors, run with small groups of fast units so that even if they get fungaled, it's worth it for you.
Also, drop play is very good against infestors since they are so slow.
this is implying that the zerg is playing w/ 1 control group, if the zerg is smart they can just leave 1 infestor at main or other expands and fungal the drop and wait for speedlings to clean it up considering the drop won't be moving/alive if it gets fungaled twice
Zerg can also just leave 10 Zerglings at each of their expansions to stop any of your drop play hard. Since Zergling is the fist combat unit Zerg can build, why are you even using drop against Zerg then?
10 zerglings doesnt stop a medivac + 8 marines, sorry
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe.
What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away.
Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers.
Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods.
Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please.
Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers.
LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What?
The whole point of the infestor buff was to help ZvP, and it really doesnt.
IMO, buff hydras, revert infestors, ZvP problem solved, TvZ problem solved.
No one used hydras in BW TvZ, and they never will in SC2 TvZ. Keep hydras contained to ZvP.
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe.
What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away.
Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers.
Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods.
Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please.
Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers.
LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What?
Mutas are negated by turrets / one thor and infestors are fucking garbage harassers if you have one single turret to detect.
I didn't say Zergs don't have effective harass methods (Mutas are actually pretty damn good), read it again please. I said that Terrans have much better ways of harassing.
EDIT:
On April 27 2011 02:14 Griffith` wrote: The whole point of the infestor buff was to help ZvP, and it really doesnt.
IMO, buff hydras, revert infestors, ZvP problem solved, TvZ problem solved.
No one used hydras in BW TvZ, and they never will in SC2 TvZ. Keep hydras contained to ZvP.
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe.
What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away.
Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers.
Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods.
Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please.
Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers.
LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What?
Mutas are negated by turrets / one thor and infestors are fucking garbage harassers if you have one single turret to detect.
I didn't say Zergs don't have effective harass methods, read it again please. I said that Terrans have much better ways of harassing.
One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit, rarely will you get thors out before the first 6 muta flock. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice.
On April 27 2011 02:18 Griffith` wrote: One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice.
It negates harassment, and that's what we're talking about.
Okay, infestors might be somewhat viable harassers in the late game when bases are spead out but they're still pretty easy to deny if you're aware of their existence.
The third on xel'naga is easy to protect by putting down a turret above the third and having a bunker / a few units there, btw. Just like putting down spine crawlers at your expos to deny BF hellions to run rampant.
On April 27 2011 01:44 LightWireEX wrote: Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game.
On April 27 2011 02:18 Griffith` wrote: One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice.
It negates harassment, and that's what we're talking about.
Okay, infestors might be somewhat viable harasser in the late game but they're still pretty easy to deny.
The third on xel'naga is easy to protect by putting down a turret above the third and having a bunker / a few units there, btw. Just like putting down spine crawlers at your expos to deny BF hellions to run rampant.
But if you did this, you wouldn't be able to have all your units on one hotkey
I really don't think infestors are as good as people initially expected them to be. Double dps and 30% increased damage to armor SOUNDS amazing, but if you think about it, it's not all that fantastic.
Double dps only really matters if you're going to chain fungals. Whether the damage is done in 1 second, 4 seconds or 8 seconds - it doesn't make a lot of difference - it's the same amount of damage unless you have enough energy to chain fungal, and players never do.
How often do you see somebody with 10 infestors on full energy dropping fungal after fungal after fungal? Never, because anyone who buys that many infestors gets smashed. The rate of damage isn't all that important when you consider that at the end of the fight the infester still did the same amount of damage total.
The 30% increase to armor is a nice increase, I can't deny that, but it's certainly not the OP protoss smashing unit that people were expecting.
I'd say infestors are probably fine as they are. They're not useless against protoss like they once were, but they're certainly not overpowered like people were thinking.
Perhaps in the future someone will find a way to abuse fungal dps, but at the moment it doesn't seem to be happening.
Personally as a Zerg i don't feel like infestors are OP. Yes, they are very strong against Terran and i feel they are tough to deal with as a T but when i'm playing protoss i feel like infestors are not strong ENOUGH. You have to get like 5 conesecutive fungals off on a deathball for it to do damage, and since you have invested so much gas into infestors while the P is fungaled he is killing the rest of your army.
In short, infestors are perfect against T and not strong enough against P.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
On April 27 2011 01:44 LightWireEX wrote: Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
Blue flame transition cloak banshee , 8 min game time, oh hi 33 kills , good game
edit: infestors can't attack while burrowed, cloak banshee does, you expect them to be able to have infinite cloak + attack move ?
On April 27 2011 02:33 Moody wrote: "Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
Detected infestors never survive, unless the terran is bad.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
Blue flame transition cloak banshee , 8 min game time, oh hi 33 kills , good game
edit: infestors can't attack while burrowed, cloak banshee does, you expect them to be able to have infinite cloak + attack move ?
Are you really arguing that fungal growth not giving a notification that your workers are under attack and killing entire mineral lines is ok? lol
The only chance you have of beating a zerg as a terran is sniping the greedy 15 hatch with a 2 rax opening. If you let them have the hatch you will play the entire game behind, unless you take a quick third. If you do that, the maneuverability of mutas will easily wipe that out because you took a quick third and will be considerably behind the zerg until you have the SCVs to make up for the disadvantage.
If you go marine+siege tank and the zerg goes infestors you will lose instantly because not only will zerg have mutas, burrow, speedlings and banelings out by the time you have a sufficiently sized army, you will also be kept in by their creep spread and won't really be allowed to move out without the zerg always spotting your army with overlords or creep. Ultimately, as a terran you have to constantly harrass the zerg with 2 rax, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees and drops. If you don't get lucky enough, it will be an instant loss against a zerg who knows how to macro.
Infestors just add another layer to the fragile TvZ cake. Not only does zerg already have a unit that can wipe out entire bio armies in milliseconds (banelings) they have another one, and that's the infestor. Also, if you go too heavy on siege tanks, you will not have the marines to support the rush of speed/bane lings and they will easily surround your tanks and take them out. Essentially, everyone wants to shit on the terran, but it's like rolling the dice in TvZ and if you don't get lucky enough you will not have any advantage and will lose.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
If you see infestors wrecking your mineral line and you let them get away, the fault is not the zerg you know. infestors are not the fastest things and its not easy to overlook them...
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
Blue flame transition cloak banshee , 8 min game time, oh hi 33 kills , good game
edit: infestors can't attack while burrowed, cloak banshee does, you expect them to be able to have infinite cloak + attack move ?
Are you really arguing that fungal growth not giving a notification that your workers are under attack and killing entire mineral lines is ok? lol
Be prepared for infestor play like we are prepared for banshee play then. Protoss puts cannons at expo, Zerg puts spine + spore at expo, Terran never put bunkers past 6 min at expo, wtf ? 4 marines can kill a infestor before he can unburrow
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
Why did you, uh, let them get away? -_-
Infestors are fine. They do what they were designed to do (kill / control bio) and currently play a solid supplementary role to any Z composition.
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar).
Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line.
And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them.
Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did.
You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it.
"Oh noes! My infestors were detected! Guess I'll burrow move them back to rejoin my army un-harmed. Because, you know... Their cloak doesn't cost any energy."
Blue flame transition cloak banshee , 8 min game time, oh hi 33 kills , good game
edit: infestors can't attack while burrowed, cloak banshee does, you expect them to be able to have infinite cloak + attack move ?
Are you really arguing that fungal growth not giving a notification that your workers are under attack and killing entire mineral lines is ok? lol
Be prepared for infestor play like we are prepared for banshee play then. Protoss puts cannons at expo, Zerg puts spine + spore at expo, Terran never put bunkers past 6 min at expo, wtf ? 4 marines can kill a infestor before he can unburrow
On April 27 2011 01:44 LightWireEX wrote: Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game.
yeah, i feel like infestors aren't that good zvp, can be good zvt, but make zvz even worse than it used to be, especially since 2 base turtling zerg with infestors can beat a zerg with better macro until hive tech
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Thats the worst part in my opinion, you cant move or micro while the units are fungalled. Basically, you see them get fungalled and you just move the screen away and let whatever got caught die :/
they're very strong against terran but i feel as if they just take over the role of the baneling... so not much change there in the matchup except that there is the anti-micro aspect which games the game pretty uninteresting. Also, terrans just arent using ghosts that much imo.
Against toss, i feel like infestors are a great unit to harass with but they really don't help that much when the deathball arrives. Even if u are able to kill stalkers... coll count is still high and you will have less corruptors and roaches because of the investment into infestors. Protoss can easily replace the stalker count while you struggle to keep the infestors alive. eventually you'll run out of mana and toss will just roll you over even easier because you have a weaker ground/air army.
I really don't see how people argue that the Infestor is overpowered in any way. Yes - it can stun your units. Zerg, however, isn't exactly famous for its ranged units being all that fantastic. That pretty much means that unless he is trying to kill you with fungal growth, the "no movement" isn't going to affect anything that isn't an air unit.
The other thing about infestors is that they are a lot like High Templars - they die instantly if you think about them too hard. They have 90 HP and the Armored status, which means practically everything will just destroy them. They also lose the spellcaster wars - they have no way to instantly deplete the energy of other spellcasters, but the other spellcasters can drain theirs.
For starters, I think Idra is and always will be a terrible spokesperson for Zerg. While there's no doubt of his skill, his relcalcitrance to trying anything creative or new in my opinion speaks worlds about his view and grasp of the game as a whole. Especially since he himself says they are strong vs ZvP yet didn't build them in his most recent ragequit match (TSL or NASL, can't recall exactly). There are far more Zerg players, or even Terran/Toss players who I would go to first for their opinion on the infestor before Idra. But this isn't about him, it's about the infestors.
For you to look at whether the infestor can kill units outright based on the damage it does to small fodder units, for example the marines you stated, is a poor analysis of the unit. The infestor, like all other casters are meant to be supplemental in addition to the army. If you need a second fungal to kill units, that means your macro everywhere else has slipped and you have no army that SHOULD be able to clean up (as all the other caster units function). It would seem to me no doubt that you are a protoss player feeling the spurn of infestors.
One of the points about infestors is that, in most matchups Zerg has a relatively low gas usage (as it is they get their geysers far later than the other 2 races) So that gas income might at first be spent on a few mutalisks for harass or forcing anti-air, the rest can be dedicated towards infestors. Their key is how they fit into the zerg economy, which in most cases is pretty light on gas until or unless corrupters need to be made.
Meaning that the infestor/baneling/zergling/roach ball is pretty good against a good number of army compositions (assuming your macro is on the level of your opponent or better).
What strikes me as odd is when blizzard made a change to them based on their move speed, yet on creep they are the fastest moving caster unit and even off creep they are the fastest unit.
I've said to friends I play with that the infestor was overbuffed in order to get people to use them, but unfortunately we haven't seen a major change to using infestors within an actual strategy. That is, in the same sense that 'mutaling' is a strategy. It seems that most zergs still only build infestors as a reactionary unit rather than a cornerstone of their army. In the future they may be tweaked again but I still think we are a few months from seeing such changes as when you have players like Idra who refuse to use them with juvenile reasoning like: "just 'cause" or "well protoss will just X,Y,Z"
On April 27 2011 02:42 ffdestiny wrote: The only chance you have of beating a zerg as a terran is sniping the greedy 15 hatch with a 2 rax opening. If you let them have the hatch you will play the entire game behind, unless you take a quick third. If you do that, the maneuverability of mutas will easily wipe that out because you took a quick third and will be considerably behind the zerg until you have the SCVs to make up for the disadvantage.
If you go marine+siege tank and the zerg goes infestors you will lose instantly because not only will zerg have mutas, burrow, speedlings and banelings out by the time you have a sufficiently sized army, you will also be kept in by their creep spread and won't really be allowed to move out without the zerg always spotting your army with overlords or creep. Ultimately, as a terran you have to constantly harrass the zerg with 2 rax, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees and drops. If you don't get lucky enough, it will be an instant loss against a zerg who knows how to macro.
Infestors just add another layer to the fragile TvZ cake. Not only does zerg already have a unit that can wipe out entire bio armies in milliseconds (banelings) they have another one, and that's the infestor. Also, if you go too heavy on siege tanks, you will not have the marines to support the rush of speed/bane lings and they will easily surround your tanks and take them out. Essentially, everyone wants to shit on the terran, but it's like rolling the dice in TvZ and if you don't get lucky enough you will not have any advantage and will lose.
I don't see that happening. Nothing stops marine/siege/thor and no zerg unit even counters thor. Mvp vs July is a good example of that. There have been no games where zerg completely owned terran with infestors. So why would that just happen suddenly?
On April 27 2011 01:44 LightWireEX wrote: Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game.
yeah, i feel like infestors aren't that good zvp, can be good zvt, but make zvz even worse than it used to be, especially since 2 base turtling zerg with infestors can beat a zerg with better macro until hive tech
Uhm. What? You don't have to clump up all your units you know.
And technically if you have better macro, doesn't that imply you have more infestors so you can NP for the win? And finally, Infestors aren't that far from hive tech, really. Ultras are like the hardest of all hard counters to infestors.
Finally, the idea that ZvZ has a "slow, powerful army" against faster, weaker armies isn't a bad thing. It offers more varied strategies.
On April 27 2011 03:29 Sv1 wrote: For starters, I think Idra is and always will be a terrible spokesperson for Zerg. While there's no doubt of his skill, his relcalcitrance to trying anything creative or new in my opinion speaks worlds about his view and grasp of the game as a whole. Especially since he himself says they are strong vs ZvP yet didn't build them in his most recent ragequit match (TSL or NASL, can't recall exactly). There are far more Zerg players, or even Terran/Toss players who I would go to first for their opinion on the infestor before Idra. But this isn't about him, it's about the infestors.
For you to look at whether the infestor can kill units outright based on the damage it does to small fodder units, for example the marines you stated, is a poor analysis of the unit. The infestor, like all other casters are meant to be supplemental in addition to the army. If you need a second fungal to kill units, that means your macro everywhere else has slipped and you have no army that SHOULD be able to clean up (as all the other caster units function). It would seem to me no doubt that you are a protoss player feeling the spurn of infestors.
One of the points about infestors is that, in most matchups Zerg has a relatively low gas usage (as it is they get their geysers far later than the other 2 races) So that gas income might at first be spent on a few mutalisks for harass or forcing anti-air, the rest can be dedicated towards infestors. Their key is how they fit into the zerg economy, which in most cases is pretty light on gas until or unless corrupters need to be made.
Meaning that the infestor/baneling/zergling/roach ball is pretty good against a good number of army compositions (assuming your macro is on the level of your opponent or better).
What strikes me as odd is when blizzard made a change to them based on their move speed, yet on creep they are the fastest moving caster unit and even off creep they are the fastest unit.
I've said to friends I play with that the infestor was overbuffed in order to get people to use them, but unfortunately we haven't seen a major change to using infestors within an actual strategy. That is, in the same sense that 'mutaling' is a strategy. It seems that most zergs still only build infestors as a reactionary unit rather than a cornerstone of their army. In the future they may be tweaked again but I still think we are a few months from seeing such changes as when you have players like Idra who refuse to use them with juvenile reasoning like: "just 'cause" or "well protoss will just X,Y,Z"
Did you just hear Tyler for exemple saying that maybe zerg should rush their 8 gazer ASAP ? He is saying that because in fact zerg units cost way more gaz than others because they are expandable, they die every second, in the end you spend as much or more gaz than any other race. Look at T3 units, they cost a lot of gaz and are not big units with high range that never dies like colossi. Our tech structure need a shitload of gaz, we need to research a lot of upgrades throughout the game, etc. Baneling cost gaz, roach too.
We took our gazer later, but we took more gazer mid / late game.
You are not a zerg and still arguing how IdrA is not a good spokeperson about zerg state, you are wrong, he is pretty good but not perfect as everyone.
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe.
What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away.
Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers.
Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods.
Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please.
Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers.
LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What?
Mutas are negated by turrets / one thor and infestors are fucking garbage harassers if you have one single turret to detect.
I didn't say Zergs don't have effective harass methods, read it again please. I said that Terrans have much better ways of harassing.
One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit, rarely will you get thors out before the first 6 muta flock. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice.
You cannot get 6 mutas before thor AND infestors at the same time. What are you talking about?
I don't really know what the fuss is about, blizzard just bruteforced more micro/ghosts in the tvz matchup, involving unit formations and scouting too. It just lifts the skill level ceiling, which is something good for an up and coming game like sc2.
By changing the infestor they basically made the tvz matchup less trifecta base (tank medivacs marines vs lingbling muta), and such thing is GOOD for the game.
Ofc players need some time do adapt, deal with it.
On April 27 2011 03:29 Sv1 wrote: For starters, I think Idra is and always will be a terrible spokesperson for Zerg. While there's no doubt of his skill, his relcalcitrance to trying anything creative or new in my opinion speaks worlds about his view and grasp of the game as a whole. Especially since he himself says they are strong vs ZvP yet didn't build them in his most recent ragequit match (TSL or NASL, can't recall exactly). There are far more Zerg players, or even Terran/Toss players who I would go to first for their opinion on the infestor before Idra. But this isn't about him, it's about the infestors.
For you to look at whether the infestor can kill units outright based on the damage it does to small fodder units, for example the marines you stated, is a poor analysis of the unit. The infestor, like all other casters are meant to be supplemental in addition to the army. If you need a second fungal to kill units, that means your macro everywhere else has slipped and you have no army that SHOULD be able to clean up (as all the other caster units function). It would seem to me no doubt that you are a protoss player feeling the spurn of infestors.
One of the points about infestors is that, in most matchups Zerg has a relatively low gas usage (as it is they get their geysers far later than the other 2 races) So that gas income might at first be spent on a few mutalisks for harass or forcing anti-air, the rest can be dedicated towards infestors. Their key is how they fit into the zerg economy, which in most cases is pretty light on gas until or unless corrupters need to be made.
Meaning that the infestor/baneling/zergling/roach ball is pretty good against a good number of army compositions (assuming your macro is on the level of your opponent or better).
What strikes me as odd is when blizzard made a change to them based on their move speed, yet on creep they are the fastest moving caster unit and even off creep they are the fastest unit.
I've said to friends I play with that the infestor was overbuffed in order to get people to use them, but unfortunately we haven't seen a major change to using infestors within an actual strategy. That is, in the same sense that 'mutaling' is a strategy. It seems that most zergs still only build infestors as a reactionary unit rather than a cornerstone of their army. In the future they may be tweaked again but I still think we are a few months from seeing such changes as when you have players like Idra who refuse to use them with juvenile reasoning like: "just 'cause" or "well protoss will just X,Y,Z"
Did you just hear Tyler for exemple saying that maybe zerg should rush their 8 gazer ASAP ? He is saying that because in fact zerg units cost way more gaz than others because they are expandable, they die every second, in the end you spend as much or more gaz than any other race. Look at T3 units, they cost a lot of gaz and are not big units with high range that never dies like colossi. Our tech structure need a shitload of gaz, we need to research a lot of upgrades throughout the game, etc. Baneling cost gaz, roach too.
We took our gazer later, but we took more gazer mid / late game.
You are not a zerg and still arguing how IdrA is not a good spokeperson about zerg state, you are wrong, he is pretty good but not perfect as everyone.
Infestors are hands down ridiculous. The fact that they lock units down means they do just as much if not more damage than a storm does on average, and THEN you have to add in the fact that other zerg units profit greatly when their opponent is immobilized; banelings and broodlords.
You basically have to use HTs for feedback and hope zerg has his infestors in front (LOL), because you're dead otherwise.
Infestors might be too strong when Zergs learn to use multiple control groups, and that you shouldn't attack-move caster units with no attack. Until then, who knows?
On April 27 2011 03:40 DooMDash wrote: After already being terrible vs Zerg pre-infestor buff, I think I'm switching to Zerg. Sad but if you can't beat em join em.
Welcome to a world of frustration my friend. The Swarm is awesome yes, but frustrating. ZvP and ZvZ are pretty hectic match ups. ZvT is very multi-task heavy, and breaking siege lines is really hectic, but passed the early game, the number of Terran cheeses/quick tech switches decreases dramatically. Thats not really the case in ZvP ZvZ.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer....
And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
Did you just hear Tyler for exemple saying that maybe zerg should rush their 8 gazer ASAP ? He is saying that because in fact zerg units cost way more gaz than others because they are expandable, they die every second, in the end you spend as much or more gaz than any other race. Look at T3 units, they cost a lot of gaz and are not big units with high range that never dies like colossi. Our tech structure need a shitload of gaz, we need to research a lot of upgrades throughout the game, etc. Baneling cost gaz, roach too.
We took our gazer later, but we took more gazer mid / late game.
You are not a zerg and still arguing how IdrA is not a good spokeperson about zerg state, you are wrong, he is pretty good but not perfect as everyone.
This is what I am kind of hinting at. Basically since release zergs have been getting their fast hatch and their fast pool and then sit on 1 geyser for too long. Not too long ago was there a Zerg strategy thread posted about going infestors (I want to say that Catz had maybe posted it but I'm unsure). Additionally plenty of times when zergs take a third they still sit on the 4 geysers they started with. Whereas protoss will take the third for the geysers alone because their gas usage is more obvious (templar, colossus), as opposed to zerg which comes in small parcels, so the perception seems to be that "oh, because my units individually are cheap on gas, my 5th and 6th geysers can wait".
For what it's worth, neural parasite has a great range but requires good positioning and micro, at the very least what you are doing is exchanging your infestor for the unit you mind control (a colossus/thor) You might be microing to try and mind control a massive unit, but your opponent is now trying to micro to kill the infestor controlling. Of course energy cost is an issue much as it is for the raven, but as the game goes on, it's not unreasonable to have these upgrades unlocked.
And if you could read again what I wrote about idra, yes he is pretty good, and not perfect. That is what I said though in not so few words, and that's why people need to stop going to him for the gospel of Zerg. I'm going to leave it at that as the thread is about infestors and not idra and I'd like to keep it on task.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer....
And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
Plagu was a tier3/hive spell and costed 150 energy (albeit cost is mitigated with consume) ensnare did no damage, and lol who gets devourers.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer....
And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
Plagu was a tier3/hive spell and costed 150 energy (albeit cost is mitigated with consume) ensnare did no damage, and lol who gets devourers.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
It would cost a higher gas investment to have infestors to fungal your Banshee then to simply spawn an overseer. Plus it allows for a different choice of investment, and in the case of him missing it's a terrible investment.
and I think thats a good thing. Every race should have units that scare the other race. God knows I'm not scared of Broods or Ultras. But Infestors? Yeah, these days I definitely have "oh shit" moments against Infestors.
To me, thats fair. Its not like Infestors are these unkillable super unit, or like FG alone will win them every battle. I still win my fair share of games against Z.
But the game are actually *more* interesting to me, because they follow a more unpredictable pattern. I can't get a deathball and 1A. Or I can. But if my opponent is good, there's a good chance he'll be able to beat it with some well-placed fungals and decent unit composition. That forces me to be smarter, and to approach game differently.
It also creates a clearer role for HTs. Feedback is an incredibly useful spell against Infestors, and unlike Storm, you can warp it in on command. If heavy Infestor use stays the norm, I think we'll see a Protoss shift to HTs--and more HTs and fewer Colossi is a good thing, IMO.
You are ometting the main difference between HT and infestors: an infestor with no energy is as usefull as a dead unit. High templars can morph into archons which are awesome unit. An archon alone, almost justify the cost of 2 HT.
Getting 2 fungal growth for 200 minerals and 300gas, is nowhere as good as getting 2 storms and 1 archon for 100 minerals and 300 gas.
Infestors are not OP if you compare them with the units from other races. However, for a zerg unit they are remarkably good.
On April 27 2011 04:22 Elean wrote: I don't like your comparaison with storm.
You are ometting the main difference between HT and infestors: an infestor with no energy is as usefull as a dead unit. High templars can morph into archons which are awesome unit. An archon alone, almost justify the cost of 2 HT.
Getting 2 fungal growth for 200 minerals and 300gas, is nowhere as good as getting 2 storms and 1 archon for 100 minerals and 300 gas.
Infestors are not OP if you compare them with the units from other races. However, for a zerg unit they are remarkably good.
Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
Jesus, people are acting like the zerg has infinite gas..
Infestors are a huge gas investment and gas was already the limiting factor in ZvT. They drastically reduce the amount of Mutalisks and Banelings Zerg can get. You can get a Ghost instead of a Tank, you don't need as many tanks because there aren't as many Banelings. A Ghost costs the same as a marine + an infestor, and that's essentially what you get out of it: you get at least one infestor per ghost, and your ghost contributes a little to the DPS of your army. If the Zerg has 10 gas to your 6, then the problem isn't Infestors, the problem is that you let him get greedy. You can abuse drops to prevent expos, infestors are slow and as said previously they reduce the Mutalisk numbers. Just don't pretend like Infestors are a free kill-everything unit, they aren't.
Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
Even if Archons don't do damage (which isn't true these days IME, because so many Zergs are going for Infestor+Ling play and Archons own Lings) they still tank a decent number of hits before going down due to their massive health, which effectively extends the lifespan of your other units.
Plus, Feedback kicks the crap out of any non-FG Infestor spell. At the very least it renders an Infestor a non-factor for a good long while, and there's a decent chance it does a good amount of damage to them as well. Its cheaper than Storm/FG, and you can warp it in. A Protoss player who is quick on the draw with feedback can kick the crap out of a heavy Infestor composition.
Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
It is however still HP that instantly is put in the battlefield for no extra cost after the templar have done their damage. It will either redirect fire to hit them, or eventually get a hit off (more so now with the potential conc shell change in TvP cases).
I don't think the patch has been out long enough to decide if infestors are too strong, too weak, or just right. To be honest, Blizz is putting out patches a little too fast now. They need to slow it down and let the metagame catch up. I'm still working on a high templar late-game transition against infestor play, and now they completely screw up my early-game play. I'm going to have to spend a lot of time reworking my builds again.
Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
It is however still HP that instantly is put in the battlefield for no extra cost after the templar have done their damage. It will either redirect fire to hit them, or eventually get a hit off (more so now with the potential conc shell change in TvP cases).
It would be ridiculous if that wasn't the case with their huge tech cost.
Terranplayers who think infestors are too strong dont use ghosts to counter them(and gain more benefit from). I havnt seen a majority of Protossplayers counter infestors with feedback, so the danger cant be so high that every player rushes for feedback. Infestor too strong? No, gasheavy units, useless without energy and counterable by units with more utility are not too strong.
On April 26 2011 21:50 Roggay wrote: I'm pretty sure the comment from IdrA is way outdated, he has stated many times since that he thinks that they are good, but not good enough.
Idra is also a pro player with lots of money on the line with each and every tournament. He's neither going to confirm that he is using infestors nor that they are too strong or too weak as either can be used by his opponent to interpret how to prepare.
I get that people often look to pro players for opinions on such matter, however they also have their own agendas.
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer....
And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
Plagu was a tier3/hive spell and costed 150 energy (albeit cost is mitigated with consume) ensnare did no damage, and lol who gets devourers.
Who gets devourers? Are you serious!? I remember playing BW (admittedly not at high level) and hydra+devourer w/ dark swarm countered EVERYTHING. I never bothered with plagu or ensnare
The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
On April 26 2011 21:50 Roggay wrote: I'm pretty sure the comment from IdrA is way outdated, he has stated many times since that he thinks that they are good, but not good enough.
Idra is also a pro player with lots of money on the line with each and every tournament. He's neither going to confirm that he is using infestors nor that they are too strong or too weak as either can be used by his opponent to interpret how to prepare.
I get that people often look to pro players for opinions on such matter, however they also have their own agendas.
i did say i thought theyd be too strong, i didnt take into account how easily they still die if you can cover a protoss ball in fungal it dies. but with collosus and blink stalkers + the target priority and speed of infestors it just doesnt happen.
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
Is snipe that useless? I thought it was pretty good against hydras, mutas, roaches, etc.
On April 26 2011 21:50 Roggay wrote: I'm pretty sure the comment from IdrA is way outdated, he has stated many times since that he thinks that they are good, but not good enough.
Idra is also a pro player with lots of money on the line with each and every tournament. He's neither going to confirm that he is using infestors nor that they are too strong or too weak as either can be used by his opponent to interpret how to prepare.
I get that people often look to pro players for opinions on such matter, however they also have their own agendas.
i did say i thought theyd be too strong, i didnt take into account how easily they still die if you can cover a protoss ball in fungal it dies. but with collosus and blink stalkers + the target priority and speed of infestors it just doesnt happen.
Not to mention if they have Templars for feedback in their composition.
Infestors are pretty dominant in zvz now, but do not seem to have affected the other matchups nearly as much as was speculated. They're slightly better in zvt, but still vulnerable to drops and slow pushed tanks. In zvp, we're all playing around with mass infestor, but it's fragile due to collosi range and blink. If I see a mass infestor style work in high level tourney play, maybe my opinion will change. I'll be sticking to fast broodlords and roach drop harass for now.
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
If someone can tell you that a unit is shit besides its mainspell, then its the Zerg with infestors. Ghosts can cloakharass, kill Z-detectors (100gas each), snipe, dps lighttargets, or nuke, where exactly is that shit? Waiting for your answer. lol
Infestors shouldn't be changed again yet, IMO. They havent broken the PvZ MU, and while Terrans are yet to really experiment with Ghosts in TvZ, relying rather on the standard marine-tank which is certainly quite a bit weaker now. And unlike HT and Infestors, Ghosts can attack and cloak, which makes me feel their underuse is borderline insane.
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
Is snipe that useless? I thought it was pretty good against hydras, mutas, roaches, etc.
Yes, snipe is terrible for how much ghosts cost. Only 45 damage per 25 energy (that also requires more APM than emp/fungal/storm/feedback/np). By comparison, 75 energy on a HT will deal far far far more than 135 damage (a decent storm will deal 400-700).
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
If someone can tell you that a unit is shit besides its mainspell, then its the Zerg with infestors. Ghosts can cloakharass, kill Z-detectors (100gas each), snipe, dps lighttargets, or nuke, where exactly is that shit? Waiting for your answer. lol
Can you stop pulling shit from your ass.
Overseers have 200 HP and are prohibitively difficult to snipe. Every snipe goes into overseer is a snipe that couldn't be used to kill a drone. They do crap for DPS against light targets compared to a marine, they have horrid range on their auto attack, cloak + energy costs 350/350 to research.
lol nuke, ok burn 100/100 to do 500 damage on a hatchery, if and only if there were no overseers, no spore crawlers around, right.
ive had ZERO success with infestors in zvp post patch. fungaling a large tossball a 9 times and barely getting through its shields is not exactly rewarding. in zvt i like the change, though it was nice stalling drops for 4 more seconds.
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
If someone can tell you that a unit is shit besides its mainspell, then its the Zerg with infestors. Ghosts can cloakharass, kill Z-detectors (100gas each), snipe, dps lighttargets, or nuke, where exactly is that shit? Waiting for your answer. lol
Can you stop pulling shit from your ass.
Overseers have 200 HP and are prohibitively difficult to snipe. Every snipe goes into overseer is a snipe that couldn't be used to kill a drone. They do crap for DPS against light targets compared to a marine, they have horrid range on their auto attack, cloak + energy costs 350/350 to research.
lol nuke, ok burn 100/100 to do 500 damage on a hatchery, if and only if there were no overseers, no spore crawlers around, right.
Not to mention that 100/100 gives infestors "cloak" movement (actually faster than their unborrowed movement). The same 100/100 burrow also affects every other zerg ground unit and is useful for a billion situtations.
Researching 150/150 ghost cloak doesn't make all Terran units cloak when stationary.
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
If someone can tell you that a unit is shit besides its mainspell, then its the Zerg with infestors. Ghosts can cloakharass, kill Z-detectors (100gas each), snipe, dps lighttargets, or nuke, where exactly is that shit? Waiting for your answer. lol
Can you stop pulling shit from your ass.
Overseers have 200 HP and are prohibitively difficult to snipe. Every snipe goes into overseer is a snipe that couldn't be used to kill a drone. They do crap for DPS against light targets compared to a marine, they have horrid range on their auto attack, cloak + energy costs 350/350 to research.
lol nuke, ok burn 100/100 to do 500 damage on a hatchery, if and only if there were no overseers, no spore crawlers around, right.
dont missunderstand me, its ok that you think ghosts are crap =) sadly for you that dont change facts like the good utility on ghosts =)
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
If someone can tell you that a unit is shit besides its mainspell, then its the Zerg with infestors. Ghosts can cloakharass, kill Z-detectors (100gas each), snipe, dps lighttargets, or nuke, where exactly is that shit? Waiting for your answer. lol
Can you stop pulling shit from your ass.
Overseers have 200 HP and are prohibitively difficult to snipe. Every snipe goes into overseer is a snipe that couldn't be used to kill a drone. They do crap for DPS against light targets compared to a marine, they have horrid range on their auto attack, cloak + energy costs 350/350 to research.
lol nuke, ok burn 100/100 to do 500 damage on a hatchery, if and only if there were no overseers, no spore crawlers around, right.
Not to mention that 100/100 gives infestors "cloak" movement (actually faster than their unborrowed movement). The same 100/100 burrow also affects every other zerg ground unit and is useful for a billion situtations.
Researching 150/150 ghost cloak doesn't make all Terran units cloak when stationary.
Uhh burrow is not useful in a billion situations, sorry. It's good on three units and that's about it, and only two of those can even move when burrowed. Get one raven and you're completely safe from burrowed stuff. Get some turrets and your base is safe from burrowed stuff. One raven is not such a huge investment, it's like two overseers except it can actually do useful stuff other than detect.
Watching Catz use them has been rather entertaining, but then again he used them before the change so it's difficult to say how good they actually are...
Will say this though... Players are effectively messing around with timings that are more or less "free" in any game that leads to hive. I can't see anything bad coming out of players doing such... Oh and it's hilarious to watch a player end a game with burrowed infestors.
if infesters are op then tanks are as well; And colossi is in a whole other catagory of op. I wouldn't say that infesters are op, they are expensive, and powerful.
Archons can fight and will rape bio even harder now that they cant be slowed. Infested trrans are cute and 3 infestors can kill an expo if they sneak by but as i said ... Its cute....
On April 27 2011 04:52 link0 wrote: The problem is that Ghosts are totally shit against zerg because they are only useful against one unit (infestors), while infestors are useful against all terran units.
HTs are infinitely superior to Ghosts against Zerg since they can storm in addition to feedback.
Snipe is actually very good for taking out expensive zerg units (ultras, broods, mutas)
The current problem with infestors is that the damage buff was intended to deal with the P 'deathball', and help 'fix' the ZvP matchup. Simple fact is that it didn't, as even now infestors haven't really made it onto the field in ZvP. Most ZvP's are still heavily roach/hydra based, and in that sense the change failed (as motivated by blizzard).
The infestor change has however had a profound impact on ZvT, which wasn't its intended purpose. Infestors now absolutely rape marine/medivac play, due to the DPS of fungal growth being doubled. This while infestors were perfectly viable (and to be honest, more interesting with the 8 sec root) before the change versus marine heavy play.
Blizzard didn't achieve the goal they set out with ('fix' ZvP), but has created (in my opinion) a less interesting ZvT matchup. I believe the damage increase vs armored is fine, but I also believe that the amount of damage dealt over 4 seconds is too high, as opposed to the original 8 secs.
I liked the idea of the infestor change for ZvP, but I'm not sure I agree with the outcome of it.
Not to mention that ghosts are an imperfect counter vs infestors (especially compared to HT's), and you're generally way better off getting more tanks.
Best unit in the game with just crazy abilities. When Zergs with good micro is winning every tournament you'll see a nerf. They will spam fungal, NP capital units, then throw some infested terrans at balls just for fun and just roll through armies, any army. Until then they are just powerful but underused.
tvz changed drastically with the recent infestor buff. I think infestors will get a nerf pretty soon though since it's way too powerful and gives zerg players the edge to just sit back with infestors and tech up to ultras or broodlords
I think Infestor is too strong, like it destroy the protoss army faster than ever seen before, just add a couple banelings and it's unstoppable, Protoss is not dare to move out to attack, leave Zerg free to expand and tech up to Ultra.
On April 27 2011 02:42 ffdestiny wrote: The only chance you have of beating a zerg as a terran is sniping the greedy 15 hatch with a 2 rax opening. If you let them have the hatch you will play the entire game behind, unless you take a quick third. If you do that, the maneuverability of mutas will easily wipe that out because you took a quick third and will be considerably behind the zerg until you have the SCVs to make up for the disadvantage.
If you go marine+siege tank and the zerg goes infestors you will lose instantly because not only will zerg have mutas, burrow, speedlings and banelings out by the time you have a sufficiently sized army, you will also be kept in by their creep spread and won't really be allowed to move out without the zerg always spotting your army with overlords or creep. Ultimately, as a terran you have to constantly harrass the zerg with 2 rax, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees and drops. If you don't get lucky enough, it will be an instant loss against a zerg who knows how to macro.
Infestors just add another layer to the fragile TvZ cake. Not only does zerg already have a unit that can wipe out entire bio armies in milliseconds (banelings) they have another one, and that's the infestor. Also, if you go too heavy on siege tanks, you will not have the marines to support the rush of speed/bane lings and they will easily surround your tanks and take them out. Essentially, everyone wants to shit on the terran, but it's like rolling the dice in TvZ and if you don't get lucky enough you will not have any advantage and will lose.
I don't see that happening. Nothing stops marine/siege/thor and no zerg unit even counters thor. Mvp vs July is a good example of that. There have been no games where zerg completely owned terran with infestors. So why would that just happen suddenly?
infestor/broodlord stops it pretty easy (like every other terran unit combo)
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new.
Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer....
And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
Plagu was a tier3/hive spell and costed 150 energy (albeit cost is mitigated with consume) ensnare did no damage, and lol who gets devourers.
Who gets devourers? Are you serious!? I remember playing BW (admittedly not at high level) and hydra+devourer w/ dark swarm countered EVERYTHING. I never bothered with plagu or ensnare
Mine was just an example. I was supporting my point => Spit-based aoe spells decloak/reveal units. Nothing fancy, I wasn't surprised at all that fungal growth retained that ability, discendend from those i've already expressed in my previous post, from bw.
On April 27 2011 05:48 stalife wrote: tvz changed drastically with the recent infestor buff. I think infestors will get a nerf pretty soon though since it's way too powerful and gives zerg players the edge to just sit back with infestors and tech up to ultras or broodlords
LISTEN TO THIS MAN. WHY ARE YOU NOT A BLUE POST =(
TvZ was extremely difficult late game even before the infestor buff.
i dont think any race likes the KA removal because it was kind of an unfair nerf (and im a zerg). I mean, fungal got a big buff and they never removed PG (i like it but it is still unfair). This makes protoss use much more colossi which makes me really sad as that is one tech path that protoss will hardly ever go down anymore .
Infestors aren't 'OP' or imba, they just make Z a little less frustrating - not less 'weak', just less frustrating, mostly in ZvP: they give the Z the possibility to keep an advantage. Let's say you successfully harassed a 3 gate sentry expand (killed probes/sentries), if you've had 3-4 infestors sitting in your base in the process, you'll be able to stall and weaken his counterattack to eventually crush it with reinforcements. I guess they also reward a good map control/creep spread since fungals work way better when you spot the army ahead. But even if they can occasionally punish an opponent moving right by a cliff with clumped up marines and no vision or huge mistakes like that, they can't straight up win you a lost game.
On April 27 2011 05:48 stalife wrote: tvz changed drastically with the recent infestor buff. I think infestors will get a nerf pretty soon though since it's way too powerful and gives zerg players the edge to just sit back with infestors and tech up to ultras or broodlords
LISTEN TO THIS MAN. WHY ARE YOU NOT A BLUE POST =(
TvZ was extremely difficult late game even before the infestor buff.
Sounds like a normal whine, not sure why he'd be worthy of a blue post. This whole "sitting" back with infestors was more viable BEFORE the buff, with the fungal being 8 seconds instead of 4.
Besides, why should Terran just be able to sit back and tech to whatever they want? Siege tanks should be removed by the game since you can just make a bunch of them and just sit in your base while teching to Battlecruisers and mass ravens. Right? -.-
being Z is still struggling extremely hard and almost every pro Z says Z is still in a very bad spot, I highly doubt blizzard will do anything to nerf zerg anytime in the future. From what I've seen a lot of the korean Ts have already learned how to deal with infestors quite well, while the NA and EU ones were busy whining about it.
Sure fungal does a lot of damage now really fast, but it's still easy to stop if you know how. tanks and collosi outrange fungal. ghosts and HTs can emp them, you can spread your units to take very little damage from fungal. pushes with tanks and bunkers are basicly immune to infestors, not to mention zergs that get infestors in zvt instead of mutas (mid game) are very prone to drops.
On April 27 2011 05:48 stalife wrote: tvz changed drastically with the recent infestor buff. I think infestors will get a nerf pretty soon though since it's way too powerful and gives zerg players the edge to just sit back with infestors and tech up to ultras or broodlords
LISTEN TO THIS MAN. WHY ARE YOU NOT A BLUE POST =(
TvZ was extremely difficult late game even before the infestor buff.
Sounds like a normal whine, not sure why he'd be worthy of a blue post. This whole "sitting" back with infestors was more viable BEFORE the buff, with the fungal being 8 seconds instead of 4.
Besides, why should Terran just be able to sit back and tech to whatever they want? Siege tanks should be removed by the game since you can just make a bunch of them and just sit in your base while teching to Battlecruisers and mass ravens. Right? -.-
Personally I think it should reverted to an ensnare like move - just with a larger slowdown. Maybe have fungal have movement speed slow to 20% instead of stopping, have the damage dealt over 5 seconds instead of 4?
You say that it is a 5 second warp in... but that is very misleading... a warp in cool down is basically the same thing as a build time... might want to consider putting that in the thread.
im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote: i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
It says you are bad at TvZ. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless you are trying to prove your argument with ONE example?
On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote: im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions
At this point, as a Terran player I don't find fungal to be too strong. I have been using ghosts since the influx of infestors from the fungal buff and feel that the emp vs fungal control is good for the match up.
On April 27 2011 06:11 hitman133 wrote: I think Infestor is too strong, like it destroy the protoss army faster than ever seen before, just add a couple banelings and it's unstoppable, Protoss is not dare to move out to attack, leave Zerg free to expand and tech up to Ultra.
Zerg qq seem effective now
I heard feedback is pretty decent against infestors, force fields are decent against banelings aswell.
I think Patch 1.3.3 should also have a buff on Ghost's snipe. That may allow ghosts to be more usefull against Z so it doesnt make all the gas a sunk cost...
I'm yet to see a pro completely own ZvT or ZvP with infestors. I've seen plenty of pros try; most have been relatively unsuccessful, and others have managed a win, but not a convincing one.
I don't really see any evidence of them being "imbalanced". Protoss are using forcefields and feedback, and Terran have ghosts.
They're slow and fragile and armoured, so I don't think anyone is going to have a REALLY hard time dealing with them.
Edit:
@ Raging Dubstep guy: Dude, go ghosts? I don't see how anyone can say Infestors break TvZ, when you can so easily just go Ghosts and EMP them.
Deal with Infestors the same way you deal with Psy-storm?
I believe this statement needs to be made and said:
All zergs have a valid point that Terran CAN outbeat infestors with superior unit control and skill. That is why GSL Z's arent totally dominating either race quite yet. But, is that really what blizzard and SC2 community wants? If u force a terran to only be able to win (and dominate in some's opinions) by being way superior in mechanics.. What's there to be left with Diamond and master's league people?
Some people may just not have fast hands and are better at macro or strategy. This pretty much kills the game for them
There are no doubt arguments I've missed, but my point is I can't see anywhere that the Infestor is broken and yet it's one of the most common complaints I hear about Zerg on any site. Since 1.3 there has been an increase in Infestor play I believe but it's hardly been game breaking, more it just feels like Zerg players have a new option. To an extent it even makes Hive tech more viable as Infestation Pit's can actually be built for Infestor play now instead of merely as a stepping stone. So to repeat my earlier question, do the majority of people still feel that Fungal Growth needs tweaking after the time it's been in play, and if so why, and how?
the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds
On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote: My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
Thank god for that (you could use ensnare/plague to do that in BW too, so they better not take it out).
the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds
This would be a major nerf to FG, because right now if you have the energy, you can chain FG and be dealing constant dps in addition to the immobilization. If the damage stopped after 4 seconds but the immobilization persisted, you couldn't keep up the dps indefinitely by chaining FGs.
So I've been playing with infestors a LOT, almost every time i get lair tech I say, what can i get? Mutas? Hydras? or Infestors? Out of those 3 infestors always seem to have the most opportunity attached to them. However, there are some things I've been noticing.
First let me talk about ZvT. My Terran partner has been losing to me a lot because I've been going ling/infestor or sometimes roach/infestor and have been destroying him. However lately, he's been going FE followed by a mech heavy build, with 3 factories, 1 with reactor 2 with techs making blue flame hellions first. He constantly makes blue flame hellions and the thing about infestor builds is that it requires a lot of drones, you need a high economy to support it. Since I've been beating him, he has been opening hellion every game or utilizing blue flame hellions a bit later and has now evened the score. The hellion harass needs to be countered with roaches and queens which delays your infestors, and if he can get some drone kills, then it's really putting you behind. If he can secure some drone kills, then he is going to do a 2 base timing which becomes almost unreasonable to stop before infestors as all you have are lings, roaches and queens and a recently damaged economy, it's not easy to build an army with low drones or redrone then build an army which will be very small in comparison to his.
Anyways so like I said, I've been noticing this 2 base zerg style where you turtle till you get infestors, is countered by harass strategies, this is nothing new. Harassing zerg? unheard of right? Well I honestly don't see a lot of terrans going for harass anymore on ladder (700 pt Master here) they just go for timing pushes which get crushed because I have infestors out by then. My partner, as I said has been going mech heavy and there are two ways which require two different responses by zerg. There is the hellion siege tank, where siege tanks are very split up, infestors are pretty weak in this situation, especially if he is building turrets to stop burrow harass. NP can work here, but it's risky, My best response has been getting roaches with overlord speed/drop and skipping infestors. Then there is the other mech, which I think is even more scary which is hellion/thor because that build relies on upgrades and you can't get drop, if you get drop thats a big mistake, you need NP.
Now ZvP. Infestors are REALLY strong in this match up, ling/infestor is almost like the standard I'd say as far as my winning percentages go using this build (i have another really solid build that goes muta/ling without infestors). I generally go for a 2 base timing push where I have like 4 infestors with fungals and my job is to thin out the death ball, targeting sentries specifically. I also get a spire at this time and a 3rd base and I transition into 2/2 upgraded lings with mutalisks, I can usually end the game right there, depends on how well my infestors did. I dunno if infestors are OP though, because they require a lot of gas, are fragile, and take extra damage to the units that counter them best, blink stalkers. I've had trouble where the toss sees my infestation pit and gets blink stalkers so he can blink ahead and kill my infestors, if I lose my infestors that's gg, it's pretty unrecoverable from there.
Anyways, just my observations. I don't think infestors are OP against Terran, they are VERY strong against bio and Air style terran but have weaknesses against Mech. With 1.3.3 and ghosts being reduced in gas cost, I think mech/ghost play will become the new standard in TvZ. ZvP I'm not sure what will change, I think we may see more 4 gate aggression or just more aggression early on because the current 3 gate expand falls pretty badly to 2 base infestor play, just 3 fungals renders all their sentries dead which is a much bigger investment for the protoss.
I just don't really feel comfortable with zerg suddenly getting their own storm. Protoss still has storm (and if you don't think it's still amazing, you're kidding yourself)
And we have EMP. Which only works against protoss. And it keeps getting worse.
Give me back a usable hunter seeker missile, and zerg can have their hilariously strong fungals. I don't even make giant marine balls anymore, and haven't really struggled in that regard.
On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote: im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions
u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line
I totally get where T is coming from. I dont play Terran, but honestly the onus in terms of demanding micro and army control has always been on the terran. Between hellion control, marine splits, and hopping seige tanks terran has it very tough already in this matchup.
Does anyone have any links or something too a tournament where a good zerg vs a good terran/protoss used infestors and won? I mean I watch a lot of sc2 and I rarely see a top zerg player start out infestor (i see transition thats what I do too).
Only times I have seen so far infestors are ladder games watching sen/haypro on the korean server and the koreans once they got 3 bases were getting ghosts too EMP infestors.
The pvz counter I feel would be immortal/stalker/zealot/sentry with some HT's just for feedback. but thats assuming their going roach/infestor. Idk wish I could read top zergs minds into why they aren't starting out infestor. I know I personally don't do it as I just don't' like it, I don't feel its as strong as people think except the ones that clump alot of units and don't spread their units at all.
On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote: im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions
u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line
I totally get where T is coming from. I dont play Terran, but honestly the onus in terms of demanding micro and army control has always been on the terran. Between hellion control, marine splits, and hopping seige tanks terran has it very tough already in this matchup.
Wait, what?
Marines standing around with 0 control what-so-ever will kill Mutalisks 1-for-2. If you have enough sense to stim, it's basically 1-for-1.
Siege tanks require no micro what-so-ever, against the standard ling/bling/muta, every shot is a good shot. You are either taking out clumps of lings or clumps of banes, either one is totally worth-while and requires 0 micro.
Marines beat lings 1-to-1 straight up, and do much better with any applied micro at all, add to that, with stim + medivacs are basically unkillable without banes or fungals, if you have enough Marines, they eventually kill stuff so fast that banelings can't ever even get in range.
Even when it comes to engagements like banshees vs queens, banshees can stack, move faster, and actually have the option of running away from a losing engagement, unlike queens.
I'm not going to be as ignorant as you and claim that the burden of micro is on the Zerg player, but the benefits of micro are vastly different when you compare the two.
Zerg micros his units so they are somewhat effective against 1a Terrans.
Terran micros his units so he can make engagements unwinnable for Zerg.
the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds
This would be a major nerf to FG, because right now if you have the energy, you can chain FG and be dealing constant dps in addition to the immobilization. If the damage stopped after 4 seconds but the immobilization persisted, you couldn't keep up the dps indefinitely by chaining FGs.
Of course you could. A new fungal resets the old one, so the damage would start again.
But then fungal would be ridiculously overpowered. A better compromise would be to deal damage for 4 secs, but slow down for 8 secs, similar to concussive shell. Then they have to figure out if it works vs massive units or not. It probably shouldn't, there's NP for them.
But then again, this kind of speculation is pointless. Blizzard are already many steps ahead; the expansion should be open for testing soon.
I like it it makes Terran the harder race to play where it should be since BW days. If you don't like it switch race. Its so easy to differentiate a high level terran player from a lower level that its ridiculous which makes it so much more enjoying to be able to have better unit control.
@ Jermstuddog
You are so biased and have been fed the same bull crap the zerg community has been feeding you since beta. Saying Terran is 1a is ridiculously stupid and just makes you sound like a bronze scrub who can't beat a 3 rax build.
On April 27 2011 06:11 hitman133 wrote: I think Infestor is too strong, like it destroy the protoss army faster than ever seen before, just add a couple banelings and it's unstoppable, Protoss is not dare to move out to attack, leave Zerg free to expand and tech up to Ultra.
Zerg qq seem effective now
I heard feedback is pretty decent against infestors, force fields are decent against banelings aswell.
Hello, HTs tech come out so late after infestor, and FFs are so bad in wide open area, and a small choke, 1 mis FF cost you the game. And Zerg complains that all Protoss have do is FF, they say FF is so easy and noobish to do.
On April 27 2011 08:56 PlaGuE_R wrote: if you remove KA, you should remove pathogen glands and the ghost energy upgrade, and the raven energy upgrade. to make it all balanced
Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote: im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions
u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line
I totally get where T is coming from. I dont play Terran, but honestly the onus in terms of demanding micro and army control has always been on the terran. Between hellion control, marine splits, and hopping seige tanks terran has it very tough already in this matchup.
Wait, what?
Marines standing around with 0 control what-so-ever will kill Mutalisks 1-for-2. If you have enough sense to stim, it's basically 1-for-1.
Siege tanks require no micro what-so-ever, against the standard ling/bling/muta, every shot is a good shot. You are either taking out clumps of lings or clumps of banes, either one is totally worth-while and requires 0 micro.
Marines beat lings 1-to-1 straight up, and do much better with any applied micro at all, add to that, with stim + medivacs are basically unkillable without banes or fungals, if you have enough Marines, they eventually kill stuff so fast that banelings can't ever even get in range.
Even when it comes to engagements like banshees vs queens, banshees can stack, move faster, and actually have the option of running away from a losing engagement, unlike queens.
I'm not going to be as ignorant as you and claim that the burden of micro is on the Zerg player, but the benefits of micro are vastly different when you compare the two.
Zerg micros his units so they are somewhat effective against 1a Terrans.
Terran micros his units so he can make engagements unwinnable for Zerg.
No im afraid this is terribly wrong and goes to show that you've never played terran at a level higher than im guessing platinum. You are correct though, if you fly your mutalisks over a group of marines they will die.
Look I know zergs not easy, but zerg players need to stop tricking themselves into thinking their race is the hardest in every category. Zergs get the greatest reward for the least amount of attention to their units of all the races... honestly ling run bys is enough evidence to put that argument to rest.
On April 27 2011 09:45 TheTenthDoc wrote: Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
ghosts are so powerful... emp them infestors then process to snipe broodlords.
On April 27 2011 09:45 TheTenthDoc wrote: Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
ghosts are so powerful... emp them infestors then process to snipe broodlords.
Don't the broodlings get in the way of pathing and obliterate the ghosts? Plus Broodlords have a bajillion health, it takes 6 snipes to kill one.
On April 27 2011 09:45 TheTenthDoc wrote: Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
ghosts are so powerful... emp them infestors then process to snipe broodlords.
Don't the broodlings get in the way of pathing and obliterate the ghosts? Plus Broodlords have a bajillion health, it takes 6 snipes to kill one.
Broolords only have 220 hp or something; that is very little for a tier 3 unit with its cost. Also snipe has pretty long range.
How can people compare the Khaydarin nerf to Pathogen glands and say it is unfair glands are still in the game?
Compare infestor build time to the time it takes you to warp in one HT and wait for enough energy for storm. I'm pretty sure the HT is able to storm before the infestor is made.
On April 27 2011 09:20 blade55555 wrote: Does anyone have any links or something too a tournament where a good zerg vs a good terran/protoss used infestors and won? I mean I watch a lot of sc2 and I rarely see a top zerg player start out infestor (i see transition thats what I do too).
Only times I have seen so far infestors are ladder games watching sen/haypro on the korean server and the koreans once they got 3 bases were getting ghosts too EMP infestors.
The pvz counter I feel would be immortal/stalker/zealot/sentry with some HT's just for feedback. but thats assuming their going roach/infestor. Idk wish I could read top zergs minds into why they aren't starting out infestor. I know I personally don't do it as I just don't' like it, I don't feel its as strong as people think except the ones that clump alot of units and don't spread their units at all.
dimaga vs white-ra, the HD world Tour, search HD starcraft in youtube.
On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote: im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions
u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line
I totally get where T is coming from. I dont play Terran, but honestly the onus in terms of demanding micro and army control has always been on the terran. Between hellion control, marine splits, and hopping seige tanks terran has it very tough already in this matchup.
Wait, what?
Marines standing around with 0 control what-so-ever will kill Mutalisks 1-for-2. If you have enough sense to stim, it's basically 1-for-1.
Siege tanks require no micro what-so-ever, against the standard ling/bling/muta, every shot is a good shot. You are either taking out clumps of lings or clumps of banes, either one is totally worth-while and requires 0 micro.
Marines beat lings 1-to-1 straight up, and do much better with any applied micro at all, add to that, with stim + medivacs are basically unkillable without banes or fungals, if you have enough Marines, they eventually kill stuff so fast that banelings can't ever even get in range.
Even when it comes to engagements like banshees vs queens, banshees can stack, move faster, and actually have the option of running away from a losing engagement, unlike queens.
I'm not going to be as ignorant as you and claim that the burden of micro is on the Zerg player, but the benefits of micro are vastly different when you compare the two.
Zerg micros his units so they are somewhat effective against 1a Terrans.
Terran micros his units so he can make engagements unwinnable for Zerg.
No im afraid this is terribly wrong and goes to show that you've never played terran at a level higher than im guessing platinum. You are correct though, if you fly your mutalisks over a group of marines they will die.
Look I know zergs not easy, but zerg players need to stop tricking themselves into thinking their race is the hardest in every category. Zergs get the greatest reward for the least amount of attention to their units of all the races... honestly ling run bys is enough evidence to put that argument to rest.
On the other hand, I'm a random masters player, and Terran is, simply put, easy to micro. Perhaps you are tricking yourself into thinking your race is difficult to micro? And this is coming from someone who wins TvZ by massing marines. Typical response is they go ling/bling and infestors. Even if they have a dozen infestors out, it's not too bad to just mass marines.
Face it, microing terran is pretty simple. I find more difficulty in microing a ling/bling/muta army. Not saying terran is an easy race to play, because it's not, but micro isn't difficult with terran at all.
On April 27 2011 09:52 schmutttt wrote: How can people compare the Khaydarin nerf to Pathogen glands and say it is unfair glands are still in the game?
Compare infestor build time to the time it takes you to warp in one HT and wait for enough energy for storm. I'm pretty sure the HT is able to storm before the infestor is made.
Yep. If you warped an HT and started an infestor at the same time, the HT would have around 75 energy by the time the infestor finished (HTs regen at a rate of 25 per 45s afaik and infestors take 50s to build)
I'd just love to see fungal made into 6 second time, a median between the other two, and make it a missle, even as a zerg, I think it would make it much more fun and rewarding trying to land a great fungal, and it would bring back some of the "micro wars" i've seen people talk about from BW. (as in, things that can actually be dodged, unlike FF, or the current fungal, other than just spreading your units).
On April 27 2011 09:47 Jayrod wrote: Look I know zergs not easy, but zerg players need to stop tricking themselves into thinking their race is the hardest in every category.
Just ignore everything about me saying I'm NOT going to be ignorant and say "OMG MY RACE R HARD".
There's things to be done on both sides of the fight, and I will readily admit that. You are the one claiming that Zerg has the ability to 1a into things and win.
Where you get this from I don't know... because Zerg hasn't been 1aing their way to victory since release, unlike Terrans, take a look back at GSL1 for example.
On April 27 2011 09:45 TheTenthDoc wrote: Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
ghosts are so powerful... emp them infestors then process to snipe broodlords.
Don't the broodlings get in the way of pathing and obliterate the ghosts? Plus Broodlords have a bajillion health, it takes 6 snipes to kill one.
Broolords only have 220 hp or something; that is very little for a tier 3 unit with its cost. Also snipe has pretty long range.
Snipe has .5 more range than Broodlord's attack. That's not that long range, especially when Broodlings skitter forward a lot to block pathing. And 225 HP takes 5 snipes, my bad, but their health is deceiving since they also spawn the Broodlings to greatly expand their life span.
Edit: Keep in mind I'm talking pre-1.3.3, I feel like 100 gas ghosts would be a lot more helpful versus infestors.
On April 27 2011 10:07 stlh2opolo wrote: I'd just love to see fungal made into 6 second time, a median between the other two, and make it a missle, even as a zerg, I think it would make it much more fun and rewarding trying to land a great fungal, and it would bring back some of the "micro wars" i've seen people talk about from BW. (as in, things that can actually be dodged, unlike FF, or the current fungal, other than just spreading your units).
The 6 second part I don't mind, but the missile part means that blink stalkers will be able to get away from fungal - fungal was changed awhile back so that it stopped blink and it was for good reason.
On April 26 2011 21:51 ooni wrote: We should never state x unit is OP. Seriously guys, go to your search button and search Marauders and you will find so many threads telling you they are so OP (from just few months ago might want to add). Now days if someone says Marauder is OP people just laugh at you then point out how noob you are. Let us wait and see how us players deal with infestors.
This. Also, I agree with Idra's claim on State of the Game (no, not simply because Idra said it...). They are good, for sure. But they're not as good as people claim/think.
I love ppl saying HT's are answer. No they are not. Zerg is not running around with pure infestor, no he has fast lings way in front of them and to get your HT in range of infestor he is killed off by lings before getting it off. Ghost at least has cloaking but HT's are slow as molasses only have same range as infestor and if you're in back of army where HT's should be infestors can still fungel whole army due to area attack and HT still can't reach. IMO nerf should constitute a range nerf for all infestor spells. That's all.
Infestor still has No dodge strom with lockdown better than FF Born with mana to do it with upgrade Born with Burrow & movement Can kick out a squad of Marines Can take over your best and expensive units from Thors to Motherships Faster than HT or Ghost
On April 27 2011 10:24 tdt wrote: I love ppl saying HT's are answer. No they are not. Zerg is not running around with pure infestor, no he has fast lings way in front of them and to get your HT in range of infestor he is killed off by lings before getting it off. Ghost at least has cloaking but HT's are slow as molasses only have same range as infestor and if you're in back of army where HT's should be infestors can still fungel whole army due to area attack and HT still can't reach. IMO nerf should constitute a range nerf for all infestor spells. That's all.
Infestor still has No dodge strom with lockdown better than FF Born with mana to do it with upgrade Born with Burrow & movement Can kick out a squad of Marines Can take over your best and expensive units from Thors to Motherships Faster than HT or Ghost
Just ridiculous.
With zergs macro capabilities don't forget that they can be replaced far more fluently than a squad of ghosts or high templars.
On April 27 2011 09:45 TheTenthDoc wrote: Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
1. You can double-EMP 2. to kill a ghost with fungal it would take 3 fungals, or sometimes possibly 4 if they overlapped too much, and ~11 seconds. 3. The skills snipe, and EMP have 10 range, fungal (and NP) have 9 range
While some people have mentioned ghosts to counter infestors, many people (including the same people) have also mentioned siege tanks. The range and damage of siege tanks combined with infestor's low health makes them excellent at dealing with infestors. The key is the use of the tanks; factors like positioning, detection, attention, and manual targeting are all important factors in using siege tanks to their best power vs infestor compositions.
Infestors are not good at neural parasiting siege tanks, due to infestor's low health, and comparatively short range. The same issue arises with infested egg bombing, except detection needs to be around. Tanks are even a problem for zerg to use fungal growth, because as long as tanks are protecting the more vulnerable units, the only way zerg will get fungals off is by making a dedicated attack (or by sacrificing a bunch of units).
On April 27 2011 10:24 tdt wrote: I love ppl saying HT's are answer. No they are not. Zerg is not running around with pure infestor, no he has fast lings way in front of them and to get your HT in range of infestor he is killed off by lings before getting it off. Ghost at least has cloaking but HT's are slow as molasses only have same range as infestor and if you're in back of army where HT's should be infestors can still fungel whole army due to area attack and HT still can't reach. IMO nerf should constitute a range nerf for all infestor spells.
High templar can deal with lings pretty well, but that's aside my point. Colossus and/or sentries and zealots deal with zerglings and other units very well, at least enough time to pull off feedbacks. I see good players own infestor-zergling play using high templar with colossus and zealot so don't say it isn't possible.
On April 27 2011 10:24 tdt wrote:That's all.
Obviously not when you write a partially incorrect rant after it.
Nah, more people will start using Ghosts (more incentive) to snipe/feedback especially if the Ghost cost change goes through (from PTR 1.3.3).
So really this should be good; with the recent changes and upcoming changes, we will hopefully see a lot more Ghosts/Infestors/HTs!
On April 27 2011 08:56 PlaGuE_R wrote: if you remove KA, you should remove pathogen glands and the ghost energy upgrade, and the raven energy upgrade. to make it all balanced
and templar warp in while we are at it
But the thing is, Templars are built early on in their production cycle; if they were built normally with a Gateway, they wouldn't have enough for a Psystorm (only 50 energy) but since they come out so early because of how Warpgate works, they will be able to have 75 energy by the time they would have been finished from a Gateway.
On April 27 2011 09:45 TheTenthDoc wrote: Are ghosts really a good answer to infestors? I am leery to try them considering how they guzzle gas and greatly delay the tech/upgrades you need to deal with the zerg army, especially if they decide to tech. Even if you get off an EMP, the infestors may still have energy to Fungal remaining thanks to the recent EMP nerf.
As for trying to snipe, can't they just fungal your ghosts and kill them off with you maybe getting one infestor kill?
I know, this sounds like I wouldn't use ghosts in TvP either, but the thing is templars are slower, EMP does useful damage to the zerg army with one shot unlike snipe which has to be manually targeted and thus struggles to hit fast Z units in a battle, and sending in ghosts solo versus Protoss isn't as much of a one-way trip. Also, HT come out very late so your tech is finished, while Infestors are a T2 unit; that makes the gas cost a bigger issue since it means cutting your tanks or upgrades a lot.
I'm honestly wondering what I'm missing here because of how many people say "go ghost." I haven't seen very many high level (Grandmaster) players respond with ghosts either.
1. You can double-EMP 2. to kill a ghost with fungal it would take 3 fungals, or sometimes possibly 4 if they overlapped too much, and ~11 seconds. 3. The skills snipe, and EMP have 10 range, fungal (and NP) have 9 range
While some people have mentioned ghosts to counter infestors, many people (including the same people) have also mentioned siege tanks. The range and damage of siege tanks combined with infestor's low health makes them excellent at dealing with infestors. The key is the use of the tanks; factors like positioning, detection, attention, and manual targeting are all important factors in using siege tanks to their best power vs infestor compositions.
Infestors are not good at neural parasiting siege tanks, due to infestor's low health, and comparatively short range. The same issue arises with infested egg bombing, except detection needs to be around. Tanks are even a problem for zerg to use fungal growth, because as long as tanks are protecting the more vulnerable units, the only way zerg will get fungals off is by making a dedicated attack (or by sacrificing a bunch of units).
You don't just fungal the ghosts, that would be foolish. You fungal then kill them with your other units, like zerglings after immobilization. If the ghosts are in the ball itself, so you can't do that, you should probably have your fungals off already. I actually prefer tanks to deal with them myself, I was just curious why so many people say "Terran will build more ghosts versus Zerg" when I've never seen anyone do it in a high level setting.
On April 27 2011 10:24 tdt wrote: I love ppl saying HT's are answer. No they are not. Zerg is not running around with pure infestor, no he has fast lings way in front of them and to get your HT in range of infestor he is killed off by lings before getting it off. Ghost at least has cloaking but HT's are slow as molasses only have same range as infestor and if you're in back of army where HT's should be infestors can still fungel whole army due to area attack and HT still can't reach. IMO nerf should constitute a range nerf for all infestor spells. That's all.
Infestor still has No dodge strom with lockdown better than FF Born with mana to do it with upgrade Born with Burrow & movement Can kick out a squad of Marines Can take over your best and expensive units from Thors to Motherships Faster than HT or Ghost
Just ridiculous.
Yeah, its just a shame all of our other units are useless as a pile of dog shit.
the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds
This would be a major nerf to FG, because right now if you have the energy, you can chain FG and be dealing constant dps in addition to the immobilization. If the damage stopped after 4 seconds but the immobilization persisted, you couldn't keep up the dps indefinitely by chaining FGs.
Yes you could, because when you use a new fungal it overrides the existing one. That's why when you attack marines, you use a fungal on them, then use the second one only 2 seconds later, not 4 seconds.
Listen end game toss is not 2 collosus 10 stalkers and 5 sentries. ZvP is hard because P has this huge ball of stalkers with collosus at the back. A few sentries to prevent zerglings from running up and its really hard to engage such an army. Therefore, its not a specific army composition that allows you to beat P as a zerg. You must get an economic advantage, do constant harass and then finally using infestor unit mixes you might have a chance now. The matchup is still very hard.
I've started to learn how to play against infestors TvZ (Masters) after a bunch of really brutal losses and don't feel as if I have too many serious complaints about it.
Honestly, spacing units and having good tank set up in TvZ is already important with banelings so you should be already somewhat prepared for infestor play. I also have been adding a raven or turrets to my push to deal with burrowed infestors. Moving while burrowed is such a wicked ability, it can really be a pain in the ass to deal with.
I think my one annoyance is that they come out with the ability already researched and it only costs 75 energy. 2-3 quick infestors with lings can be devastating if you aren't on your toes. I did a quick cloak banshee build today and he was able to completely shut it down with his first 4 infestors even though I had the two split up. I was however able to pick off two of them so all was not lost (so squishy).
I really haven't played around with ghosts much as I still feel that proper tank use is the way to go (although I plan on trying cloaked ghosts next time).
EDIT: I think people complaining about the power of infestors + BL have let Zerg get too powerful in the earlier stages and they probably just deserve to lose it :/
Infestors locking stuff completely in place is dumb just like forcefield, conc shells, blue flame hellions, and phoenix lift are dumb. They are all abilities that need to be seriously tweaked.
I am a high masters zerg player and I don't think infestors are overpowered or even all that good right now. They are great against noobs who ball up marines/stalkers, they can let mutas/lings actually beat a stalker ball, they can punish a T who puts their marines too far forward with a stim, but if you are losing to MASS infestors (>3-5) you need to evaluate your positioning (or as P, your unit/tech choices.)
Won't be cherry for long. In 1-2 months you'll see mass infestors dominating tournaments like Zerg are experiencing in ladder.
we'll see, but somehow I doubt it. strats are always most powerful when first created (or first made possible by a patch). after the roach buff, everyone bitched for a while about Zerg being OP, but everyone can deal with Roaches now. Zerg have barely explored the Infestor--which means Toss haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to really trying to prepare counterstrats. Once they do, we'll see how "OP" "mass infestor" strats are.
One thing I'd like to see more of is Phoenix play vs. Infestors. Right now, FG is weaker against Phoenixes than its ever been--it does more DPS but no more damage (and the damage was never that high vs. light), and holds them in place only for a short time. Phoenixes are fast/manueverable enough that if you control them well (i.e. don't put them in one control group and a-move them towards the infestor), it should be all but impossible for the Zerg to catch more than one Phoenix with an FG. And once you're close enough, you graviton beam them, and take the Infestor out of the fight for a very decent chunk of time while the Phoenixes can happily shoot away.
They are great against noobs who ball up marines/stalkers,
Yes, but you know what, it's a freaking hard to get your army well splitted against Inf when you do attack, only in defense - yes. The problem is that being T you should be 3 times better and faster in micro to be at even roles with zerg, who almost always A-move. Infestors require no micro skill, good marines splitting (especially when attacking) is almost art. I would say not the Infestors themselves are the problem, but their management simplicity, contrary to bio management. Rooting should be replaced with 50% speed decrease - that's would be way more entertaining. And FG, by itself, should not be able to kill, just down HP to 1. Infestors at now areTerminators, at defense and offence, very good all-purpose unit for its price.
On April 27 2011 05:46 Derez wrote: The current problem with infestors is that the damage buff was intended to deal with the P 'deathball', and help 'fix' the ZvP matchup. Simple fact is that it didn't, as even now infestors haven't really made it onto the field in ZvP. Most ZvP's are still heavily roach/hydra based, and in that sense the change failed (as motivated by blizzard).
The infestor change has however had a profound impact on ZvT, which wasn't its intended purpose. Infestors now absolutely rape marine/medivac play, due to the DPS of fungal growth being doubled. This while infestors were perfectly viable (and to be honest, more interesting with the 8 sec root) before the change versus marine heavy play.
Blizzard didn't achieve the goal they set out with ('fix' ZvP), but has created (in my opinion) a less interesting ZvT matchup. I believe the damage increase vs armored is fine, but I also believe that the amount of damage dealt over 4 seconds is too high, as opposed to the original 8 secs.
I liked the idea of the infestor change for ZvP, but I'm not sure I agree with the outcome of it.
Not to mention that ghosts are an imperfect counter vs infestors (especially compared to HT's), and you're generally way better off getting more tanks.
The Infester change was targeting the ZvZ mu. It changed vT and vP a bit but was mainly for ZvZ, which it did change.
They are great against noobs who ball up marines/stalkers,
Yes, but you know what, it's a freaking hard to get your army well spitted against Inf when you do attack, only in defense - yes. The problem is that being T you should be 3 times better and faster in micro to be at even roles with zerg, who almost always A-move. Infestors require no micro skill, good marines splitting (especially when attacking) is almost art. I would say not the Infestors themselves are the problem, but their management simplicity, contrary to bio management. Rooting should be replaced with 50% speed decrease - that's would be way more entertaining. And FG, by itself, should not be able to kill, just down HP to 1. Infestors at now areTerminators, at defense and offence, very good all-purpose unit for its price.
It's hard to micro infestors my friend, when they are getting 50 damage siege shells any time they are in range to fungal. If they are not in range, the terran is being too greedy and speedy with their pushing
Almost always, even pro zergs, will LOSE all their infestors when they attack. People rag on them a lot for this, but the fact is, marines stim back into siege tank lines, and since you spent so much on infestors instead of banes, you HAVE to a-move your infestors into the siege lines or you will never hit the marines. If fungals do not hit at least some, you simply lose because you have no splash damage.
In all of those battles the protoss just got outnumbered by quite a margain. Let's wait till we get REAL proof from tournaments and not make up our own shall we.
I don't know why there's a debate about this. Yes, infestors are really good, but so are colossus and marines and siege tanks. Everyone's so fast to want to swing the nerf bat around that it's ridiculous. If this were brood war, there's no way we'd see things like swarm, irradiate, or reavers stick around (it's not fair, 1 defiler can hold an entire expansion!) People just need to accept things for what they are. Sure, now zerg has a pretty powerful aoe tool that controls space reasonably well, but what do people think seige tanks and colossus are? If we continue the current trend of nerfing everything that's powerful, this game is going to turn into 3 races having an hour long battle because no one can kill anyone else.
So no, I don't think infestors need a change. A zerg needs to pay close attention of where he places his units in relation to colossus or seige tanks, so why shouldn't a terran/protoss have to be mindful of the infestor instead of just having free reign once it's aoe unit is out?
On TvZ discussion... I think it's a little early to go and jump to conclusions, but I do have to say that Ghosts as a solution to Infestors is one of those things that seems to be fine on paper but in practice the infestor tends to have the tools to avoid being emp/sniped, namely burrowed movement. The Lurker might not exist, but burrowed infestors in TvZ give you some serious map control, heck they can even provoke turrets or the almost useless TvZ raven.
Ive always Found (Me being a Protoss player) in PvZ, that A gateway army is completely powers when infestors are present, (Without a massive amount of Micro) completely cutting out our gateway tech for fighting (Minus Feedback from HT's) I find that Microing my Collosi to pick-off the infestors is less then optimal for my Army. I think the only thing that needs to be done to fix infestors is to remove the move debuff of infestors. The Damage is okay, but in terms of storm the root is way more powerful then the extra damage. Not to mention with the Removal of KA, Infestors seem quite a bit more powerful then they should be.
To the replies in this thread: This is the exact mindset that destroys what could otherwise be very dynamic games. On top of that, it ruins development of each race (believe it or not, you can adapt to new situations instead of just whining about it on the internet). Oh, X has something that seems strong? Screw changing my playstyle, NERF NOW!
It's absolutely disgusting to see the amount of ignorant replies in this thread. I'm going to lock this so I don't have to ban everyone.
EPT
They aren't frenzied as ultras, they're massive like collossus and thors, which means they can't be slowed by marauders and they can get hit by corrupters, and void rays deals extra damage against them - and they now brake force fields.
. i Acutally went back and watched some sc matches. and man i forgot how fast lings did dmg in sc. Saw lings running towards a bunker and was like ohhhh man dont suicide those lings. 2 seconds later bunker dead lol.
