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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 26 2011 13:46 Rebel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:32 Devolved wrote:
Can someone explain how making Archons massive is going to affect gameplay in the different matchups? Read the head of the thread pages.... Its up there ^^^^^^^^^^ But here, if you dont want to look up... " Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong."
That's one point in one match-up. I was wondering about the bigger picture. How will it change strategies and timing rushes in different matchups? That sort of thing. I don't play Toss so it's hard for me to visualize exactly how this is going to play out. But thanks for your condescension; always appreciated.
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I remember one of the early patches where the zealot build time was increased to 38 seconds because of the power of proxy gates. This change seems to have reversed that...
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On April 26 2011 13:48 Griffith` wrote:
I'd rather deal with 2 gate power goon than 2 gate zealot rush -_-
I don't get why protoss would QQ? if anything, protoss late game is STRONGER than before. Decreased gateway training time actually would have the opposite effect: did anyone else realize that it means protoss can pump out MORE units than they did before?
Erm...how so? Where are people getting the idea that gateways build faster than warpgates now??
Taken from Liquipedia, warpgate cooldowns are:
Zealot - 28 seconds
Stalker - 32 seconds
Sentries - 32 seconds
Add the 5 second warp-in time and you get the exact same build times as the gateway unit build time buff.
There is practically no change in terms of the relationship between warpgates and gateways outside of the first few minutes of the game. After warpgate research is done, warpgates will again be superior to gateways due to much greater utility. Gateways are still going to see no use past the 6 minute mark.
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Time to fuck Terran balls up with mass archons lol. Archons + immortals + HTs, you can't deny it! Just need to fb ghost and I'll be good to go lol
j/k tho
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This is really really bad ass. In a lot of different ways. The reduction in build time allows for a better macro presence from just the raw gates and promotes a higher skill cap, but if you wanted to attack you need to make the decision to lose your faster production for assaults.
This difference will allow a very large skill check/gap at the highest echelon of play where every 4 units pumped out of a warp gate occurs, 5 come out of a gate way, this sounds small, but having another 5 units on the field out of 5 gates is a really big deal.
The ability to scout and switch to defense and offense from an econ stand point is also a really big deal, if someone scouts 5 gates up and in warpgate mode they should be quaking in their boots for a timing push in the next 10~ seconds, but if they see 5 gates churning out units that means they must also be scared just at a further away time.
This is a really good change and adds a huge cerebral level behind not just PvP but also the other match ups as well. Terran MUST scout Protoss all the time or risk being totally overrun, *protoss players could you imagine the level of pain you could reave on terrans if you had an extra 4-5 units on any given timing push? or 10 if its a two base play?*
Overall, this is an amazing change, adds a higher skill cap for protoss but also for terran, zerg and protoss playing a protoss player. I am very excited to see the changes that the game goes through due to this.
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On April 26 2011 13:15 butter wrote:I have to wonder if the gateway build times being five seconds longer than the warpgate cooldowns is a mistake... Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:55 Azide wrote:
There is also a new "1v1 Test Map" on the PTR called "1v1 TestMap5" if someone wants to take a pic It looks pretty much the same as the TestMap5 that was on there before with the other Patch 1.2.1 PTR maps, unless I'm looking at the wrong thing. I don't think we'll ever see that map on the ladder.
Hmmm... I looked back at testmap5 from 1.2.1...
+ Show Spoiler +
It's really intriguing that Blizzard is considering the main-to-main backdoor corridor blocked by rocks and the relatively short rush distances. Plus, I think this map was used for play testing at a few Blizzcons when they were showcasing SC2 during development.
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The ghost changes scares me a little bit. I know it's a buff for TvsP, but ghost strats is the only thing I know how to do in TvsT and this actually seems like a GHOST NERF in that scenario for me. I always go mass marauder without starport in mid game TvsT. Ghosts are crucial for that strat (you need the nukes vs tanks). And now I won't be able to afford as much marauders anymore. :S
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LKAJSDFLKASJDFLKASDF
MASSIVE ARCHONS GIVES ME MASSIVE BONER
Also 2 gate pressure's back baby! Loving this patch, but I'm worried about those scary 1 base ghost timings now T_T
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On April 26 2011 13:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:48 Griffith` wrote:
I'd rather deal with 2 gate power goon than 2 gate zealot rush -_-
I don't get why protoss would QQ? if anything, protoss late game is STRONGER than before. Decreased gateway training time actually would have the opposite effect: did anyone else realize that it means protoss can pump out MORE units than they did before? Erm...how so? Where are people getting the idea that gateways build faster than warpgates now?? Taken from Liquipedia, warpgate cooldowns are: Zealot - 28 seconds Stalker - 32 seconds Sentries - 32 seconds Add the 5 second warp-in time and you get the exact same build times as the gateway unit build time buff. There is practically no change in terms of the relationship between warpgates and gateways outside of the first few minutes of the game. After warpgate research is done, warpgates will again be superior to gateways due to much greater utility. Gateways are still going to see no use past the 6 minute mark.
I'm not worried about a 2WARPgate proxy, i'm worried about a 2GATEWAY proxy. If they proxy now it takes them 38 seconds to build a zealot, whereas after the patch it will take 33 seconds
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spore crawler change has brought a smile to my face, just absolutely muy bueno!
made my day
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On April 26 2011 13:51 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:46 Rebel_ wrote:On April 26 2011 13:32 Devolved wrote:
Can someone explain how making Archons massive is going to affect gameplay in the different matchups? Read the head of the thread pages.... Its up there ^^^^^^^^^^ But here, if you dont want to look up... " Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong." That's one point in one match-up. I was wondering about the bigger picture. How will it change strategies and timing rushes in different matchups? That sort of thing. I don't play Toss so it's hard for me to visualize exactly how this is going to play out. But thanks for your condescension; always appreciated.
In PvP, nothing. When have you ever seen an archon in this matchup?
In PvZ, you may accidentally break your own forcefields. Although, much fewer sentries get built after Protoss gets templar techs out.
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On April 26 2011 13:54 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:15 butter wrote:I have to wonder if the gateway build times being five seconds longer than the warpgate cooldowns is a mistake... On April 26 2011 11:55 Azide wrote:
There is also a new "1v1 Test Map" on the PTR called "1v1 TestMap5" if someone wants to take a pic It looks pretty much the same as the TestMap5 that was on there before with the other Patch 1.2.1 PTR maps, unless I'm looking at the wrong thing. I don't think we'll ever see that map on the ladder. Hmmm... I looked back at testmap5 from 1.2.1... + Show Spoiler +It's really intriguing that Blizzard is considering the main-to-main backdoor corridor blocked by rocks and the relatively short rush distances. Plus, I think this map was used for play testing at a few Blizzcons when they were showcasing SC2 during development.
Actually they used that map during the last Blizzcon as well for the King of the Hill thing they had, with a sweet sweet Kerrigan poster (I shamelessly 4gated 4 people to get it >_>)
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On April 26 2011 13:44 Lz wrote:
proxy 2 gate is going to be insanly strong now lol
ya it would be strong and terrans are forced to make bunkers or atleast 2 now. losing 50 minerals now with 2 bunkers.. this is HUGE! Ghost nerf is pretty huge as well. 200 gold now... guess I will never use it mid game anymore.
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The concerns regarding salvage/how "free" or cheap it is are really kind of silly imo.
Something to note about RTS in general.... money earlier in the game is more important than money later in the game. If you don't understand that, then this should make more sense?
100 minerals 2 minutes into the game > 100 minerals 10 minutes into the game
Earlier in the game each mineral counts for something big. For example, making two pylons at 9/10 is huge deal/waste. However later in the game, 100 minerals isn't a huge deal at all, you can make a bunch of pylons and it probably won't change the outcome of the game that much.
What does the imply for salvage? It means it's not REALLY a "full refund" like people propose it to be. Even if you make a bunker, then 1 minute later you salvage it, you aren't really getting a full refund because that 100 minerals earlier in the game spent was worth way more than 100 minerals you receive afterwards.
Taking this into account, I don't think salvage is really much of a benefit at all and shouldn't really be made into a big deal... especially for defensive bunkering in which you make a bunch of bunkers earlier in the game for a "fake full refund" later in the game.
Salvage is the least of SC2's worries in my opinion.
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Is this on SEA or US PTR or is there only one PTR?
EDIT: because I just logged in to the PTR and I couldn't see any of the changes reflected. 140s warp gates, large radius on pylon etc.
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I actually do 10 gate standard on LT/Meta, cause if i get close positions
vs T
I will sometimes go for a 2 zealot 1 stalker push all chrono'd out off of one gate. Has won me games a few times outright vs greedy Terrans who dont wall off and go for reactor + CC or something crazy like that
Same situation for a zerg that goes hatch first, I will chrono out units and try to force some units out
I think the decreased build time will just make the other 2 races play a bit safer. EG hatch first may no longer be viable close positions if some units are chrono'd out
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I'm quite sure it's not all the game changes we will see in the near future. That's why it's 1.3.3 patch and not 1.4.
As was said by blizz in official forum this patch is almost for resolving P4gate only. I really expect way more changes in the upcoming 1.4.
Infestor nerf, tank buffs, and T late game fix is must_be changes anyhow.
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On April 26 2011 13:52 Azzur wrote:
I remember one of the early patches where the zealot build time was increased to 38 seconds because of the power of proxy gates. This change seems to have reversed that...
While proxy 2gate was a viable cheese, it was still very stoppable. Besides, as I recall the metagame for ZvP was more focused on hatch first than it is now, where the trend is more for gas-pool openings.
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I was going to post it in the Salvage thread but since it was locked I'll repost it here to not waste this post >.>.
Take note building a Bunker also costs a SCV mining time. it takes 40 seconds to build a Bunker which means it takes away 40 seconds of mining time from an SCV. (Though for on the plus side, it doesn't cost a worker[drone] like Spine or Spore Crawlers do >.>)
Of course this only matters if the mineral line is not saturated (early game typically where bunkers are used most) but I've seen a lot of people say Bunkers cost nothing (with Salvage at 100%) when in fact they do cost something, that is mining time from an SCV.
Though, I'm fine with the change. As long as they keep Salvage in the game instead of removing it all together, I'm fine with it.
Personally I think in cases like these, instead of removing things (Khaydarin Amulet for example) they should buff or nerf something instead.
Removing these things just takes away options from the game but of course this is just for future discussing in case they actually decide to remove Salvage or something else.
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On April 26 2011 13:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:48 Griffith` wrote:
I'd rather deal with 2 gate power goon than 2 gate zealot rush -_-
I don't get why protoss would QQ? if anything, protoss late game is STRONGER than before. Decreased gateway training time actually would have the opposite effect: did anyone else realize that it means protoss can pump out MORE units than they did before? Erm...how so? Where are people getting the idea that gateways build faster than warpgates now?? Taken from Liquipedia, warpgate cooldowns are: Zealot - 28 seconds Stalker - 32 seconds Sentries - 32 seconds Add the 5 second warp-in time and you get the exact same build times as the gateway unit build time buff. There is practically no change in terms of the relationship between warpgates and gateways outside of the first few minutes of the game. After warpgate research is done, warpgates will again be superior to gateways due to much greater utility. Gateways are still going to see no use past the 6 minute mark.
Yes but it's enough time for a defending protoss to get his robo tech up.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4781217/Maps/testmap5.jpg)
