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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. | ||
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David451
United States491 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:38 Proko wrote: Um because the game is a LOT different now than it was in beta and right after release? You're right, ghosts used to take all the energy off Thors, now we'll have to emp them twice. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
When will 250mm ever be useful? TvZ, there's no priority targets, except for Ultras which are immune. TvP, the Thor will never have energy. And in TvT, Thors are never used anyway. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: with the archon buff a Zealot/Archon/HT army is very viable so don't talk to me about gas cost. a single feedback is not strong but 5-6 can kill,but still I can still go pure ghost mech without much problem. sure, but there is a fundamental problem with this that a lot of terran players don't acknowledge. protoss units, the good ones that are useful in the early game, cost lots of gas. the tech, teching up to charge, to psi storm, making templars. it all costs huge amounts of gas. robo bay. we generally have to make a robo bay and get observers, even more gas. yes this army is viable but it's a huge risk to try to go straight for it. zealot/archon/ht already was viable before khaydarin amulet nerf. it was alright but stim marauders could kite it pretty bad. they will still be able to after unless u have lots and lots of archons, and that is a very hard thing to get. frankly i think after this buff archons will be pretty awesome but, honestly, it was needed | ||
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Artisan
United States336 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:56 Artisan wrote: Infestor change looks good. Zerg needs more slow unmicroable units. Idra brought up a good point. The infestor speed change actually makes Infestor micro easier. The infestors naturally stay behind your army now, instead of running forward and becoming vulnerable. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:54 travis wrote: sure, but there is a fundamental problem with this that a lot of terran players don't acknowledge. protoss units, the good ones that are useful in the early game, cost lots of gas. the tech, teching up to charge, to psi storm, making templars. it all costs huge amounts of gas. robo bay. we generally have to make a robo bay and get observers, even more gas. yes this army is viable but it's a huge risk to try to go straight for it. zealot/archon/ht already was viable before khaydarin amulet nerf. it was alright but stim marauders could kite it pretty bad. they will still be able to after unless u have lots and lots of archons, and that is a very hard thing to get. frankly i think after this buff archons will be pretty awesome but, honestly, it was needed getting charge out by the time thors and 250 mm cannon are out is perfectly viable, and zealots are great against thors before they get upgraded then once you hit late game thors are COMPLETELY useless, there is no ifs ands or buts about it, they have no purpose in TvP and never will if this change goes through, immortals will shred them like they're nothing | ||
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Telenil
France484 Posts
All in all i wouldn't mind if the patches were a bit more bold as Blizzard seems to change a lot of minor stuff while refraining from addressing much more relevant issues. 4 gates is hardly a minor issue. Nor were high templars and EMP last patch.I'm sad the build time decrease on zealots and stalkers was removed, but glad that the archon range was buffed. Still, thor having energy once again really feels weird, I never had the feeling thors were so powerful that feedback would be necessary. It is one of the few units in the game that is so slow to mass that I can safely switch to carriers to kill them... | ||
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jnkw
Canada347 Posts
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: with the archon buff a Zealot/Archon/HT army is very viable so don't talk to me about gas cost. a single feedback is not strong but 5-6 can kill,but still I can still go pure ghost mech without much problem. yes,yes we have. Are you serious? This isn't even coherent. Once the energy is gone, feedback stops doing damage. Archons have no bonus damage versus mech, they aren't going to be much better post-patch than they are now, except vs. bio. Ghosts (which have been made easier to produce) w/ emp hard counter archons and do a ton of damage to all toss units. Templar are still an incredibly expensive tech tree, and to use them vs thors (no amulet) would require advance scouting with obs (another gas sink, from the robo bay). don't be so dramatic. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
No reason to bring back thors energy, it just discourages use of a unit we already do not see enough. People are saying blizzard wants to encourage templar tech over colossi and that colossi are one dimensional etc etc, but encouraging one style with a change that directly results in another infrequently used unit to be discouraged is bad. Mech is rarely seen outside of a select few thorzain games and of course goody, this change just encourages terrans to just keep making bio because its still the best thing, which in turn is keeping the matchup one dimensional from the terrans side of the matchup. Again the archon change encourages more templar tech but just forces terran to keep going bio again. They reverted a lot of the PvP aimed changes and i think its a better way to do it instead of just throwing the matchup upside down all in one patch. build time would have just made proxy 2gate ridiculous again, and 20 seconds is still some extra time to squeeze some tech in but not changing builds in other MUs to much The zerg changes i am not really impressed or disappointed about either way, if anything im disappointed they did so little to zerg this patch with sweeping changes to protoss happening. Root time will help im some scenarios but its not a end all fix to zergs early game problems, spines still take forever to dig a hole and they both take an eternity to make. Infestors being slower was probably not needed but not a big deal at the same time. The bunker change has been needed for awhile now because bunker rushing and defense structures should not be 100% free, the ghost change is a nice little buff but the thor change im against for said reasons above. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51083 Posts
On May 04 2011 16:03 Proko wrote: Are you serious? This isn't even coherent. Once the energy is gone, feedback stops doing damage. Archons have no bonus damage versus mech, they aren't going to be much better post-patch than they are now, except vs. bio. Ghosts (which have been made easier to produce) w/ emp hard counter archons and do a ton of damage to all toss units. Templar are still an incredibly expensive tech tree, and to use them vs thors (no amulet) would require advance scouting with obs (another gas sink, from the robo bay). don't be so dramatic. I said I can still go pure ghost mech and win. and that Zealot Archon and HT is viable. only mistake was the feedback thing. you are being dramatic. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:58 Itsmedudeman wrote: getting charge out by the time thors and 250 mm cannon are out is perfectly viable, and zealots are great against thors before they get upgraded then once you hit late game thors are COMPLETELY useless, there is no ifs ands or buts about it, they have no purpose in TvP and never will if this change goes through, immortals will shred them like they're nothing I actually agree. I feel like the only mid or late game army composition a Thor can be viable in, is TvZ where 250mm is a useless upgrade. In TvP, you could conceivably use ghosts to emp templars before feedbacks go off or on the Thor itself to get rid of energy...or just build marauders. The great thing about Thors was that they could hold their own against their counter, the Immortal, until the Protoss reached a critical mass of immortals. Without 250mm, Thors will simply melt to any number of Immortals. | ||
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Artisan
United States336 Posts
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
Thor Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). Translation: 250mm Strike Cannons have been removed from the game and now the Thor has energy so it can get feedbacked. The change was needed so the Seeker Missle, Snipe, Reapers and other more or less fancy (but completely useless shit) in the terran arsenal wont get lonely... | ||
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David451
United States491 Posts
On May 04 2011 16:03 Proko wrote: Are you serious? This isn't even coherent. Once the energy is gone, feedback stops doing damage. Archons have no bonus damage versus mech, they aren't going to be much better post-patch than they are now, except vs. bio. Ghosts (which have been made easier to produce) w/ emp hard counter archons and do a ton of damage to all toss units. Templar are still an incredibly expensive tech tree, and to use them vs thors (no amulet) would require advance scouting with obs (another gas sink, from the robo bay). don't be so dramatic. Dramatic? You sir are underestimating the damage this does to Thors. Thors are semi-viable precisely because they can be relied upon as tanks and do not auto-lose to immortals. Now they can no longer be relied upon as tanks (instant 200 damage) and no strike cannon (immortals will wreck them so hard). For any thor-centric strategy, this is worse than the amulet being removed was to templar-centric strategies. This would be like removing the amulet and making psionic storm cost150 energy. | ||
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David451
United States491 Posts
On May 04 2011 16:11 sadyque wrote: Every god damn time a terran unit sees some use it gets nerfed. Morrow uses reapers - reapers get nerfed to shit. Thorzain uses thors - thors get nerfed ... It seems Blizzard wants to see mmm vikings every god damn game. Im betting tanks will get nerfed (again) next patch so we can get more mmm in tvz too. Thor Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). Translation: 250mm Strike Cannons have been removed from the game and now the Thor has energy so it can get feedbacked. The change was needed so the Seeker Missle, Snipe, Reapers and other more or less fancy (but completely useless shit) in the terran arsenal wont get lonely... But... but... Seeing MMM Viking every single TvP is what makes it so great to watch. /barf | ||
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
On May 04 2011 16:11 David451 wrote: Dramatic? You sir are underestimating the damage this does to Thors. Thors are semi-viable precisely because they can be relied upon as tanks and do not auto-lose to immortals. Now they can no longer be relied upon as tanks (instant 200 damage) and no strike cannon (immortals will wreck them so hard). For any thor-centric strategy, this is worse than the amulet being removed was to templar-centric strategies. This would be like removing the amulet and making psionic storm cost150 energy. the point is, you can't have templar and colossus immortals, so build some marines and marauders to go with those thors, or get some banshees as the composition you are describing is light on anti air. Just because you don't like the change doesn't mean it "destroys" mech play. that's just silly. | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:58 KevinIX wrote: Idra brought up a good point. The infestor speed change actually makes Infestor micro easier. The infestors naturally stay behind your army now, instead of running forward and becoming vulnerable. Exactly! The speed nerf is actually a buff. How many times have we seen an infestor not get to a location fast enough and how many times have we seen idiot zergs charging with infestors in front? | ||
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David451
United States491 Posts
On May 04 2011 16:22 Proko wrote: the point is, you can't have templar and colossus immortals, so build some marines and marauders to go with those thors, or get some banshees as the composition you are describing is light on anti air. Just because you don't like the change doesn't mean it "destroys" mech play. that's just silly. Templar counter the marines and marauders too (and any SCVs repairing the Thors). Thors weren't even proven to be viable at high level play, there were just a couple fluke wins so far by Thorzaine. Why nerf something that wasn't even dominating at high level play? This just makes the decision to go MMM+GV even easier. Nevermind that going banshee/marine/thor means you have 3 different upgrade paths. | ||
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