EPT6-7 Pool to Top 400 NA - Your Thoughts? - Page 15
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mind1337
France107 Posts
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Wiwiweb
France56 Posts
http://drop.sc/packs/72 Using these only, the win rate is: ZvT: 25% ZvP: 63% ZvZ: 66% Far from the 90% announced. Now, taking the ZvP part for example, the win rate vs people who went Pylon, Gateway, Forge is down to 52% (That includes people who build it late or out of position or every other mistake possible). The win vs people who did not build a forge is 70%. If I was able to sort out replays of people who didn't scout or didn't respond appropriately, my guess is that we would find the win rate would be much lower. My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault. For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 11 2011 23:14 Wiwiweb wrote: My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault. He was very successful. He got to an MMR where he could play top NA players, by 6pooling. For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse. Kiwikaki did 2 gateways too. It works fine if your micro is up to scratch. | ||
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20% Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75% Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95% Clearly Protoss players on ladder play WAY too greedy. Zergs just need to start 6pooling ~40% of the time on 4-player maps against them and eventually they'll have to start going 10-gate or whatever. I mean, when you think about it, gate on 14 is quite a lot of probes before production. Forcing a toss player to be more conservative early is the obvious way to get a slight advantage later on in the game. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
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Elothis
111 Posts
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Cosmos
Belgium1077 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
imo its a little bit sad that you can get so high with it, and it shows that its a maybe a little sign of early game imba. It's just a sign of terribad NA players. Watch the games, some of the "defences" are utterly comical. | ||
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PinkSoviet
France45 Posts
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Elothis
111 Posts
and in ZvZ 6/7 pool is really strong if not scoutet early enough - deadlier than in any other matchup, just cause its a mirror and you cant defend in a macro way. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Wiwiweb
France56 Posts
On April 11 2011 23:20 Yaotzin wrote: He was very successful. He got to an MMR where he could play top NA players, by 6pooling. This just proves that the majority of top NA players don't know how to counter a 6 pool. Besides he was able to get there by also mixing in other builds. On April 11 2011 23:20 Yaotzin wrote: Kiwikaki did 2 gateways too. It works fine if your micro is up to scratch. Clearly you didn't watch the games closely enough, there were many differences: First, the positions. Even though he built his gateway as fast as possible, Whiplash's first zealot would not have finished before the gateway was destroyed because they were in close positions. Kiwikaki was able to get his first zealot out. Second, a mistake by rottenpotato: he was only attacking Kiwi's gateway with 3 out of 4 zerglings. Because of this, Kiwikaki was able to get a 2nd zealot out of this gateway, and was able to repel the lings once they broke in. This wouldn't have been possible with only 1 zealot. Also note that in the end, Kiwikaki won through a base race, ending the game fast. He would have been perfectly fine with a cannon, but he would have needed to tech up before winning. This may be why he chose to 2 gate. After all, ladder is just practice for pros. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On April 11 2011 23:49 Wiwiweb wrote: This just proves that the majority of top NA players don't know how to counter a 6 pool. Besides he was able to get there by also mixing in other builds. Well yes, that's what the topic is about: how clueless people are about defending 6pool... I only watched the vP games TBH which were almost all 6pool and mostly wins. Also note that in the end, Kiwikaki won through a base race, ending the game fast. He would have been perfectly fine with a cannon, but he would have needed to tech up before winning. This may be why he chose to 2 gate. After all, ladder is just practice for pros. I said you can defend it with 2gate, not that you should. I agree a cannon is the safe, reliable way. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
On April 11 2011 16:27 Drowsy wrote: hahahahaha. Maybe they can undo that zealot build time change they made a while ago? With better roaches, I really doubt it would bring back 2-gate zealot rushes vs z. If it's a 4 player map and you don't scout it in time and react, it is literally a 100% build order loss and there was nothing you could do. It's just silly. Of course anyone can stop a 6 pool on 2 player maps with a 9 scout, that's not what's stupid about it. Just make pool require a 2nd overlord or something. can we please stop with this already? Do you have any idea how brutally assraped zerg would be vs 2-rax? | ||
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
On April 11 2011 23:27 GeorgeForeman wrote: Clearly Protoss players on ladder play WAY too greedy. Zergs just need to start 6pooling ~40% of the time on 4-player maps against them and eventually they'll have to start going 10-gate or whatever. I mean, when you think about it, gate on 14 is quite a lot of probes before production. Forcing a toss player to be more conservative early is the obvious way to get a slight advantage later on in the game. 10 Gate won't help you any against an unscouted six pool. The problem is that on a big four player map it becomes a lottery of who finds who first. If you scout them first, you lay down a forge, block with probes and pylons and hold it. If you don't you simply go "Uhhh there's lings in my base." and thats normally GG unless he can't micro for shit. | ||
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Oddysay
Canada597 Posts
you will not kill him right away but got advantage in map he cant wall in with one zealot . if he go standar fast exp + forge used in some map curently . you win right away . most of the time you put the protoss realy behind in the game because he need probe and he will loss alot while the zerg not that far behind and can make queen , start some inject and start standar macro mode. that kinda sad actualy, but sc2 make me sad all the time with the race balance. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On April 12 2011 00:15 grobo wrote: can we please stop with this already? Do you have any idea how brutally assraped zerg would be vs 2-rax? Not that I agree with it or anything but I highly doubt you would scout a 2 rax before 9 supply which would be when you get your second overlord. | ||
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rottenpotato
Canada130 Posts
On April 11 2011 23:14 Wiwiweb wrote: The pack in the OP actually has games with roach rushes, regular macro games, private games with friends, and even Zealot Frenzy games. I sorted it out and made a pack with only the pool first builds. http://drop.sc/packs/72 Using these only, the win rate is: ZvT: 25% ZvP: 63% ZvZ: 66% Far from the 90% announced. Now, taking the ZvP part for example, the win rate vs people who went Pylon, Gateway, Forge is down to 52% (That includes people who build it late or out of position or every other mistake possible). The win vs people who did not build a forge is 70%. If I was able to sort out replays of people who didn't scout or didn't respond appropriately, my guess is that we would find the win rate would be much lower. My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault. For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse. I think I mentioned it a bit earlier but I can't expect everyone to read through all 15 pages. The win rates dramatically dropped off as I neared the top 600 or so. It got progressively harder. If you were to sort through the replays from the first half vs the last half, the percentages should be very different. | ||
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Crypt
United States17 Posts
I just want to thank the OP for uploading the replays and providing the accompanying information...informative and entertaining.  | ||
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