EPTIt's the same with the sickening over-prescribing of SSRI's for depression.
Performance Enhancing Drug in Starcraft 2? Yes. - Page 11
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
It's the same with the sickening over-prescribing of SSRI's for depression. | ||
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
On April 06 2011 19:17 nihlon wrote: Also I'm a bit baffles that some people can't see the difference in taking drugs and simply eating well... Defining drug generically as a substance that alters your mental/physical state, most foods are in fact drugs. | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On April 06 2011 10:17 catamorphist wrote: Don't make rules you can't or won't enforce. I think that mandatory drug testing would not be worth the modicum of fairness it would provide -- it's a pain in the ass, costs money, and risks drama -- and without that, it's unenforceable. Also, it's not true that it's "undoubtedly" giving anyone an unfair advantage. Needless to say, nobody has publicly tested or measured anyone's video gaming performance under Adderall or any other nootropics in a controlled environment, and nobody understands the mechanism and effects of these sorts of drugs well enough to say exactly what they are and are not going to help you with. What he said. Until any of you have a proposition for who is going to pay for this and how they are going to pay for it, this is a non-issue. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:48 xLethargicax wrote: After reading all ten pages of this, I have a few things I'd like to add to the discussion that were passed up in the sea of comments. 1. I think it's really disrespectful to a player like HuK to blindly insinuate he was on adderral. Think about where he was, 4 hours of sleep, and an hour or so before huge career matches. If I was in his position I would have chugged the fuck out of some coffee. Whether he did anything or not isn't even what I mean to touch on, but the fact someone would blindly, and callously say he was on adderall is so absurd. 2. I do not have personal experience with Adderral, as the drug really scares me, but I have some friends that take it for recreation every now and again. I'm always interested in how a person feels on drugs so I have vicariously explored the drug through them, and I feel like I could say this with authority; I do not believe Adderall would help playing Starcraft at all. EVERY single one of my friends who have taken Adderall while trying to game have told me it's near impossible. They've all told me it's too easy to focus on a game and they feel like they have spare brain power to use so it feels wasteful to play. Generally they write essays while cleaning and shit. That drug is crazy. I guess it affects people differently, maybe the games that your friends were playing were not that demanding. If you look at a top level SC player, they are constantly thinking of ways they could be countered or harassed so they prepare for that and make counter moves. That is high level gaming, not everyone thinks that way and it is hard to train yourself to do it. Are your friends at that level? I'm assuming that for the average gamer that doesn't think like that it would just make them concentrate on the things that they do think about and if that isn't that much then they lose interest. But if you are constantly rethinking different possibilities then it would help you stay focused on the game. | ||
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ghostsquall
United States187 Posts
BUT, I'm not trying to offend or make him look bad. I just think it would be very disappointing to find out the top players were doing this, because people like me that want to go pro don't do these things, and if the best people are, there will be no way to compete with them. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On April 06 2011 10:22 Mr. Nefarious wrote: If it's prescribed to me, I'm taking it. The day MLG, GSL etc. are allowed to ban prescriptions is the day these organizations get sued for discrimination against the disabled. It's too bad your outlook on medication is limited to abuse, however I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of these players are not "doping" but rather following their doctors instructions. The idea that no player could possibly need Adderral outside the game is as foolish as it is shortsighted. Those that are prescribed Adderral are done so with the assumption and idea that it will put them on the same level of concentration as those that are lucky enough to be born with perfect genes. Qft | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
wow great contribution to the discussion. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:57 ghostsquall wrote: I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this face just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed... I somewhat disagree that it's much of an advantage. I compare my replays on-amps and off-amps and they aren't much different, it just feels like you're playing a lot better at the actual time, and just feels like you are multitasking and doing everything better. When infact it can actually make you sloppy as well as you focus too much on one thing on not others. It's got disadvantages too and overall unless you want to get a marathon practice session in, at the highest level i don't think that an amphetamine is going to give you an edge over a player. But for practice purposes sure it will help a lot. But then you still gotta deal with coming down off the stims too so again that's a double-edged sword as well. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On April 06 2011 21:21 KinosJourney2 wrote: It should be forbidden for those who doesn't have to actually take them. You should turn in some medical paper as proof to show that you aren't just using them for the advantage. the problem is that absolutely anyone in the US can do this if they see enough doctors. i don't know about other countries. especially near "college towns," this is how a lot of shitbag doctors make their $$. "hey did you hear that dr. gives out addy rx's like candy?" --> suddenly he gets a dozen more "patients." i agree that it would also be used more for practice than the real games (though you would have to use it all the time because of withdrawal). i don't really know how it works, but who can't actually concentrate in the gsl? lol, something that calms the nerves would give a bigger advantage. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours. So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On April 07 2011 00:11 AlBundy wrote: First of all, when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, comparing REAL sports to esports is reallllllllllllllllly silly, for obvious reasons. Sure, drugs might play a big role in games that require specific skill sets, such as Quake Live. But I don't think that performance enhancing drugs in starcraft 2 are game-changing. I mean, firstly it's all about strategy. Secondly it's not like you have to sustain 400 apm for 4 hours. So unless someone somehow manages to process Sun Tzu's brain into small pills, I'm not worried. it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. | ||
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xLethargicax
United States469 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:57 GreEny K wrote: I guess it affects people differently, maybe the games that your friends were playing were not that demanding. If you look at a top level SC player, they are constantly thinking of ways they could be countered or harassed so they prepare for that and make counter moves. That is high level gaming, not everyone thinks that way and it is hard to train yourself to do it. Are your friends at that level? I'm assuming that for the average gamer that doesn't think like that it would just make them concentrate on the things that they do think about and if that isn't that much then they lose interest. But if you are constantly rethinking different possibilities then it would help you stay focused on the game. Yeah, that is a really good point. I'm sure the amount I use my brain while playing SC/2 is like 1/8th that of a top player. Thanks for bringing that up, I'm not sure how it slipped my mind, haha. Anyways, I didn't mention this in my previous post but yeah, I'd have to agree with the portion of people saying it's just too hard to enforce. In a perfect world no one would have attention disorders and then we could test, but alas, we do not live in a utopia! :[ | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
What is it that we admire about professional athletes or players? Its obviously not that they were born with a special talent, because then we'd admire everyone who won the lottery just as much, if not more. The only remaining option that is vaguely believable is that we admire the effort they're putting into their pursuit, and the skill rewards that entails for them. In essence, we admire professionals for the fact that they are arguably ruining every other aspect of their lives to perfect one aspect. Doing anything for the vast majority of your time isn't "healthy" in conventional senses, but we still admire everyone who does it, as long as they picked the right thing to do. Consider the following: Person A chooses to devote 12 hours of his day, every day, to the pursuit of an unhittable pitch. He works out to throw harder and faster, he practices his motion to ensure he can repeat the pitch without ruining joints, and above all he practices actually pitching so he is accurate and controlled. As a result of this, he has little to no social life, he doesn't get to partake of enjoyable foods or beverages, and he goes to bed every night with every muscle on his body aching. Person B chooses, instead, to devote 6 hours a day to that same pursuit, but chooses also to use some PED. He thus has more time to devote to social concerns, he doesn't have to worry as much about his diet (he probably does but whatever the example works either way), and perhaps he doesn't hurt as much when he goes to bed. But he's taking PEDs, which have side effects of their own*. Maybe his balls shrink to the size of peas. Maybe he is constantly furious with people for minor things. It doesn't really matter what the costs are - the point is, both people in the above hypothetical have made a choice to sacrifice quality of life in certain areas in order to achieve a goal. The goal is no different between the two, by definition, and in all important respects their methodology is no different, either. Why, then, is Person A the consummate professional athlete and Person B a cheater? They both did the same thing. *If they don't, there isn't even an argument against their use. I am not, and you should not be concerned with spectating the best play possible given a set of arbitrary constraints (namely, unenhanced human capability) above and beyond the set that already exists in the rules of the game/sport. We are interested in seeing amazing play, not amazing play given a bunch of disadvantages. There's even a strong argument that PEDs, since they were invented and created by humans, should be included within the realm of "unenhanced human capability". You don't even have to get into the practical concerns of enforcement to come to the conclusion that anti-doping is a pretty silly endeavor, since it basically hurts everyone and only benefits people under an extremely strict (and flawed) understanding of benefit. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:57 ghostsquall wrote: I personally can vouch for the fact that if you don't personally have ADHD and take adderall, you will become better at ANY game you are playing. I think whoever is denying this fact just doesn't want to un-legitimize some of the players- but look at HuK, in his interview at MLG you can see in his eyes he was clearly on something and isn't it kind of odd that in the GSL WC he was pretty damn bad and didn't seem focused at all? I think he might not have had what he needed... BUT, I'm not trying to offend or make him look bad. I just think it would be very disappointing to find out the top players were doing this, because people like me that want to go pro don't do these things, and if the best people are, there will be no way to compete with them. Isn't a bit harsh to point fingers without anything to back it up with? Is this going to become a thread with list of suspects now. A statement like that can really affect a player, if 80% dislike the use and then finds out that player X is doing it, he will be fucked. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On April 07 2011 00:14 underdawg wrote: it would probably help a player a lot in maintaining marathon training sessions, not necessarily on the stage. and mechanics plays a lot in sc2, come on. even pros get supply blocked a lot, it's not like everyone's macro is perfect. So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On April 07 2011 00:21 Jiddra wrote: Isn't a bit harsh to point fingers without anything to back it up with? Is this going to become a thread with list of suspects now. A statement like that can really affect a player, if 80% dislike the use and then finds out that player X is doing it, he will be fucked. Except that being liked in gaming does benefit you... Sure it is nice and you might be chosen to advertise some hardware but in the end, winning gets you money, not being liked by people. | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
On April 06 2011 23:51 infinity2k9 wrote: Oh btw great post by PraetorianX. The way the ADHD symptoms are so wide as to include anyone is really quite manipulative and obviously to benefit pharma companies. Literally anyone can go down a checklist of the supposed effects of ADHD and decide they have a form of it. I can fit most of them but reality is i'm just lazy, it's not that i literally cannot focus cause i need amphetamines to do so. It's the same with the sickening over-prescribing of SSRI's for depression. If you honestly think ADHD is diagnosed by the symptoms listed on wikipedia then you are woefully misinformed. And if you think people can just look at a checklist and 'decide' they have ADHD then I don't really think you should be voicing any opinion on the subject. Overdiagnosis of AHDH in the US doesn't make the disorder or it's effects any less real. Well, I'm actually a doctor (technically still a medical student) here in Sweden Yay, finally a internet doctor... please inform us with your glorious knowledge of this neurological disorder. So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly. ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it. So how can I say ADHD is a not a proper disease? Well, compare it to a brain tumor. You recongnize symptoms, you test to confirm. You can clearly and tangibly see the reason for the symptoms, and treat accordingly. ADHD doesn't work like that. There is no clear cause. If you score high enough on the test, you suddendly have it. Oh... I see. I guess this is the difference between a medical student and an actual doctor. Not that it's uncommon for medical students to presume they actually know everthing but surely you could have done some minor research before posting that turd. ADHD can be observed and diagnosed by functional imaging (such as SPECT and fMRI). And the genetic contribution to these traits is routinely found to be among the highest for any psychiatric disorder (70–95% of trait variation in the population), nearly approaching the genetic contribution to human height. As a matter of science, the notion that ADHD does not exist is simply wrong. All of the major medical associations and government health agencies recognize ADHD as a genuine disorder because the scientific evidence indicating it is so overwhelming. Let me just say that again. No professional medical, psychological, or scientific organization doubts the existence of ADHD as a legitimate disorder. This leads me to ask, where excactly are you studying medicine and what field are you studying? edit: As a medical professional, I can almost guarantee that many SC2 players (and commentators) are taking amphetamine since I recognize the effects of the medication in their behaviour. The most blatant example is H to the Usky Husky. The speed and manner in which he speaks is typical for a medicated ADHD patient. This is really something special. You can almost guarantee this, right? Because surely a "medical professional" would notice that the way husky speaks is actually typical for an unmedicated ADHD patient. If he was using methylphenidate in any form and still spoke like that he'd probably be the most hyperactive individual the world has ever seen. Because y'know methylphenidate actually has a strong, calming effect on people with ADHD... but surely you knew that, being a medical professional and all. | ||
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ghostsquall
United States187 Posts
But again, this is my opinion, if any of the players would like to just step up and clarify (as in HuK) that they weren't doing anything, be my guest, but until then they are suspect in my eyes. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On April 07 2011 00:27 AlBundy wrote: So how come these players are at pro level, even though they make this kind of mistakes ??? I'll tell you: it's because mechanics play a lesser role overall and are much more forgiving. Strategy and tactics are the key to victory. That's why you can definitely play at pro level with 150 apm and unsound mechanics. I won't name any players but just take a look at some of the TSL3 players... edit; also I agree about the marathon training sessions well yeah but if goody took adderall, maybe he would practice and focus enough to stop getting supply blocked every 2 minutes and queuing up 5 SCVs at a time every 3 minutes, and he would be that much better. but it's just impossible to police, so what's the point really? people who think it can be policed simply have a very wrong view of how easy it is to get a rx. honestly though, i suppose i wonder. i hear that with addy, sometimes you can only focus on one thing really at a time, wonder how that works with multitasking. i've studied with people who have taken it, and all the time i am like, "i really don't think that point is important. i really don't think that will be on the exam, LET IT GO MAN." lol the SC2 equivalent would be "YO stop trying to save every marine left from your drop, THERES BANSHEES IN YOUR BASE!!!" or "don't worry about queuing, THERE ARE BANELINGS ROLLING TOWARDS YOU!" heh | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
Quoted from Wikipedia, just thought I'd ad it here. | ||
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