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Why do we have to "limit" the amount of koreans when we can easily solve the problem by inviting players by region....evenly. 15 NA players, 15 EU players, 15 Korea players and 5 from the other region(Moonglade etc). I see zero issues with this at all. You want the best players from around the world to compete, so take the best players from each region. Sure, player 16 in Korea might be better than player 5 in NA, but doing anything else, imo, is just directly competing with the GSL, and that's doomed to fail.
I'd liken it to the NCAA basketball tournament starting right now. Conference winners get in regardless, not just 'best teams, period". The conference winner of the Sun Belt conference was 19-17 Arkansas-Little Rock. They got in, and 22-11 Alabama, who went 12-4 in conference play, did not get invited. 99.9% of the world knows Alabama would beat Arkansas-Little Rock 4 out of 5 times, but that's just not how the tournament works. And the inclusion of such "underdogs" works extremely well from a drama standpoint, especially because of how "fair" the tournament system is. You want in? Win your conference or just do extremely well.
Applied to the NASL....if the 16th Korean feels slighted by being left out.....too bad, get to 15, and get invited, or move to NA/EU. Rules are rules, and as long as you have a sufficient number of high quality players, merely including less competent players along with the real pros will not dilute the play much.
If anything, inviting 48 koreans based only on skill level will KILL the foreign scene, because there is currently nothing even remotely like what the Koreans use to train set up anywhere in EU/NA. Let the "foreigners" in the tourney, get their feet wet.....let them realize just how to train, and give them training in real matches vs the top of the world. If the league is just Koreans.......why even have it? We have the GSL, and it won't develop the foreign scene at all. I personally want to see my favorite players compete against the like of Nada, MVP, MC, etc. Sure, they'll get wrecked for a few seasons, but you don't get better by watching the best on TV every night......you get better by playing them.
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i agree mostly. but i also think it's fine for NA to give themselves a few more slots, like wild cards. tennis tournaments do that all the time for the hometown crowd (i think almost any english person gets almost a free pass into wimbledon, easiest for US person to make the US Open out of all the slams, etc.). i don't think it really makes sense for EU to have more slots than KOR though.
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The nasl should be feeling on top of the world right now IMO. Drawing huge names like July and mc can only mean good things.
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For everyone commenting on the 100,000 USD prize drawing interest...
Isn't that the point of the prize?
Yeah, Koreans aren't going to waste their time playing for small prizes in foreign leagues when they can make more money through Korean leagues and sponsorships. Obviously. This prize attracts Koreans, this is a good thing.
I'm sure they love playing the game, to do anything THAT MUCH, there has to be some love involved. But it's a matter of practicality. Play Korean tournaments (GSL, GSTL) and rely on sponsorships to make decent money, or practice for those less and play in foreign leagues to make tiny amounts of money. It's pretty clear what they'd choose.
A lot of this grief is because of the invite system, though. As spectators, we have no real insight on the selection process, and it feels a lot like favoritism. This is all old news, but you shouldn't be surprised to have controversy arrive in an invitational system worth this much money.
If it were a smaller, one time tournament, it probably wouldn't get as much attention, but as a 3-season tournament with large prizes and no evidence of a qualification system in place (other than an open qualifier for a single position out of 16, a bit ridiculous given the probability of the best player being knocked out randomly) it's a little sketchy.
I personally believe that Koreans are now a fair amount ahead in SC2. But I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd rather be proven wrong than have the issue avoided altogether, in some mockery of a league that is the "best of the best."
NASL needs to deliver.
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On March 18 2011 04:20 Sm3agol wrote:
Why do we have to "limit" the amount of koreans when we can easily solve the problem by inviting players by region....evenly. 15 NA players, 15 EU players, 15 Korea players and 5 from the other region(Moonglade etc). I see zero issues with this at all. You want the best players from around the world to compete, so take the best players from each region. Sure, player 16 in Korea might be better than player 5 in NA, but doing anything else, imo, is just directly competing with the GSL, and that's doomed to fail.
I'd liken it to the NCAA basketball tournament starting right now. Conference winners get in regardless, not just 'best teams, period". The conference winner of the Sun Belt conference was 19-17 Arkansas-Little Rock. They got in, and 22-11 Alabama, who went 12-4 in conference play, did not get invited. 99.9% of the world knows Alabama would beat Arkansas-Little Rock 4 out of 5 times, but that's just not how the tournament works. And the inclusion of such "underdogs" works extremely well from a drama standpoint, especially because of how "fair" the tournament system is. You want in? Win your conference or just do extremely well.
Applied to the NASL....if the 16th Korean feels slighted by being left out.....too bad, get to 15, and get invited, or move to NA/EU. Rules are rules, and as long as you have a sufficient number of high quality players, merely including less competent players along with the real pros will not dilute the play much.
If anything, inviting 48 koreans based only on skill level will KILL the foreign scene, because there is currently nothing even remotely like what the Koreans use to train set up anywhere in EU/NA. Let the "foreigners" in the tourney, get their feet wet.....let them realize just how to train, and give them training in real matches vs the top of the world. If the league is just Koreans.......why even have it? We have the GSL, and it won't develop the foreign scene at all. I personally want to see my favorite players compete against the like of Nada, MVP, MC, etc. Sure, they'll get wrecked for a few seasons, but you don't get better by watching the best on TV every night......you get better by playing them.
This is the way they should do it it would be awesome if they spli the regions up evenely and invited only the best of the best. And the 16th player from each region can go play in the open if they truly are the 16th best they should have no problem making it through the open tournament.
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I just hope they have an excellent criteria for deciding who gets in. Like you have to have placed top 8 in x number of big tournaments and have to have done this, this and this before even being considered filter out the scrubs and choose from an elite list of deserving players.
Sorry incontrol there is always the open
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Hm... I wonder which Korean was contacted by them. Jinro said that oGs only made application vods so late because the NASL said that it would get in contact with Korean teams and they were wondering whether they would still be contacted and waiting for the contact till the last second until applying properly with those vods.
Now, did Startale apply through those vods because they were not contacted either?
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On March 18 2011 04:20 Sm3agol wrote:
15 NA players, 15 EU players, 15 Korea players and 5 from the other region(Moonglade etc). I see zero issues with this at all. <snip>
Totally agree and it was how I thought it would work, less drama and more evenly distributed.
Other than that, please go ahead and make this either a north american only tournament OR a global one, I know what one will get me to pay money to watch. O_o
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No spoon feeding pls. The foreign scene needed this in Brood war for obvious reasons but not now. I admire a lot of foreign players, for example GoOdy, Artosis, Jinro and many others and I want them to play the best in the world.
cheers
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On March 18 2011 04:54 xlat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 04:20 Sm3agol wrote:
15 NA players, 15 EU players, 15 Korea players and 5 from the other region(Moonglade etc). I see zero issues with this at all. <snip> Totally agree and it was how I thought it would work, less drama and more evenly distributed. Other than that, please go ahead and make this either a north american only tournament OR a global one, I know what one will get me to pay money to watch. O_o
Yea when they originally announced the tournament I was skeptical about giving money. If they divide it evenly amongst the best of the best I will happily pay just like I do for the gsl. Heck I'd even donate on top of that if it seems all the players were chosen on merit and quality games are guranteed
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Whats funny is alot of people assume that the western players dont WANT to face koreans, I dont think this is the case. Alot of them prolly would like to be in korea playing against them but cant afford it, this is the situation where they can do that.
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It seems like minus a few people most of the people in this thread seem to be on the same page. I hope the nasl is listening 
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On March 18 2011 02:49 Ownos wrote:
I find it funny that this league takes flak for limiting participation, when another tournament (Rakaka Intel) invites only Swedish players and not a word is said. Make it a LAN only league IMO! Go watch GSL if you want to see Koreans play.
You can be assured that Rakaka would get a lot of flak if they advertised their tournament as "an esports revolution*" featuring "the greatest players the world has ever seen*"... and then limit participation to Swedes only. :p
But they're not. They're just making a cool tournament for Swedes.
*actual NASL quotes
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If it wasn't for the fact that NASL is going to be such a miniature 50 man tournament then I would be 100% down for having a bunch of Koreans in it. But 50 people is so so small and hard to work with (especially small for something that is online) that it makes bringing Koreans in a very hard decision to make because we all love watching the Korean play but we also want something of our own.
People we can cheer for that are from our own countries and such. Also the problem arises that if Koreans do get allowed in that NASL will just be totally dominated by them due to how much more experience they have over us. Not too many people like to watch 1 way roflstomps.
Some people have said that this just means that NA and EU players will have to bring their A game....well of course they will but foreigner A game compared to Korean A game isn't an even match by any means because fact is foreigners don't have the resources, the following, the sponsorships, the team houses, the Starcraft TV channels, none of that stuff that the Koreans have all around them.
It's not guaranteed that the Koreans will destroy NASL if they enter but it's a very high possibility. And that in of itself is a scary reason not to invite too many Koreans in as the NASL I think is meant to give us what the "Global" Starleague has given Korea and if Koreans sail up on their viking ships and start raping and pillaging US/EU players it will take a lot away from the NA/EU scene.
On the other hand turning down too many or tip-top Korean professionals can damage the scene as well as they will lose respect for the general foreigner scene I'd think.
It's a very very tricky decision that needs to be made and probably not one that was altogether predicted and I think one of the main ways it will be addressed in future NASL seasons is extending the player base to greater than 50 to accommodate the high amount of applicants. They say they wanted to keep the number low for Drama but I think drama comes second to having a good overall player base the provides a ton of good games to watch.
Opinion on NASL's Drama forcing:
+ Show Spoiler +
Personally I think the whole trying to force Drama into the NASL is kind of blunt and won't quite work. I think back stories on the players can simply be accessed by labeling a players history for example watching NHL anytime there is a lull in game play they focus the camera on a certain player and kind of go over his recent history or if he's a rookie go over his struggle to get into the NHL and how well he's played for X team and how much potential he shows.
And for things like Drama a couple of the most dramatic rivalry's in recent NHL history to watch (for me) is the Battle of Ontario Sens vs Leafs rivalry or the Bruins vs Habs rivalry. Both of these the teams never bluntly said the other team is there rival (as far as I know) but you know they are because you can feel the hatred between the teams when they play and also the play each other CONSTANTLY which isn't something that easy to mimic in tournament style setups that Starcraft works with unless you are Flash and Jaedong or Yellow and BoxeR and just constantly end up facing each other in the finals of something.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is because of all the applicants that if it isn't a cost thing the player base should be increased if it really is that small only for the fact that it's a "starleague" and they want "back story" on the players. Forcing back story and drama like that is like Wrestling (laugh out loud). I think if you want to highlight Drama and Rivalries and Back Stories the onus is on the league and the casters to simply have the player's Starcraft history, ladder rank, tournament statistics and pre-Starcraft 2 background on paper at hand during the match up even if the player is a total dark horse and only ladders.
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On March 18 2011 05:01 Rylaji wrote:
Whats funny is alot of people assume that the western players dont WANT to face koreans, I dont think this is the case. Alot of them prolly would like to be in korea playing against them but cant afford it, this is the situation where they can do that.
The only players that don want it are players that aren't confident enough that they will be chosen I've a Korean player those players sitting on the line that probably don't deserve to be in the league anyways maybe that how avilo and pokebunny feel. Who here would prefer to see avilo vs pokebunny over MC vs demuslim or zenio vs TLO or dimaga vs ensnare
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Here's an analogy I'm surprised that a lot of people aren't making:
In 1992 the "Dream Team" (Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Malone, Stockton, etc.) was the greatest assembly of basketball players in the world. When unleashed on the international community in the '92 Olympics, it was, predictably, a bloodbath. BUT!
The excitement of seeing the best of the best playing against the rest of the world sent interest in the sport SOARING around the world. In the years since, while the US (and NBA) easily retain their position as the premier center for global basketball, the sport has grown, and the skill level has significantly closed. It is no longer a world-altering event for the US to lose in tournament play to a Greece or Lithuania every once in awhile, even if the US is favored. It's not surprising to see foreign players (Nowitzki, Yao, Ginobli) lead their teams to NBA Finals, win the All-Star voting, or make a lot of noise leading their national teams in the Olympics.
NASL has an opportunity to TRULY be a global StarCraft league by allowing the best of the best from across the world to compete. Even if MC or NesTea wins the whole thing, it would bridge the gap between the KR and foreign scenes like nothing else, and perhaps be a catalyst for e-sports to grow in popularity even faster.
Furthermore, SC2 has arrived at a time when the skill differential isn't quite as vast as it was in BW, and interest in e-sports is much higher (could NASL have even dreamed of existing in 1998? I submit to you absolutely not).
Don't be close-minded and scared of an amazing opportunity!
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On March 18 2011 05:06 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 02:49 Ownos wrote:
I find it funny that this league takes flak for limiting participation, when another tournament (Rakaka Intel) invites only Swedish players and not a word is said. Make it a LAN only league IMO! Go watch GSL if you want to see Koreans play. You can be assured that Rakaka would get a lot of flak if they advertised their tournament as "an esports revolution*" featuring "the greatest players the world has ever seen*"... and then limit participation to Swedes only. :p But they're not. They're just making a cool tournament for Swedes. *actual NASL quotes
Haha, well I WAS going to post that NASL is being unfairly being singled out as there are plenty of tournaments that limit participation in one way or another, but yeah that sounds like they dug their own hole. But I think at this point people should have an idea of NASL's aims despite that.
On March 18 2011 05:14 Snaphoo wrote:Here's an analogy I'm surprised that a lot of people aren't making: In 1992 the "Dream Team" (Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Malone, Stockton, etc.) was the greatest assembly of basketball players in the world. When unleashed on the international community in the '92 Olympics, it was, predictably, a bloodbath. BUT! The excitement of seeing the best of the best playing against the rest of the world sent interest in the sport SOARING around the world. In the years since, while the US (and NBA) easily retain their position as the premier center for global basketball, the sport has grown, and the skill level has significantly closed. It is no longer a world-altering event for the US to lose in tournament play to a Greece or Lithuania every once in awhile, even if the US is favored. It's not surprising to see foreign players (Nowitzki, Yao, Ginobli) lead their teams to NBA Finals, win the All-Star voting, or make a lot of noise leading their national teams in the Olympics. NASL has an opportunity to TRULY be a global StarCraft league by allowing the best of the best from across the world to compete. Even if MC or NesTea wins the whole thing, it would bridge the gap between the KR and foreign scenes like nothing else, and perhaps be a catalyst for e-sports to grow in popularity even faster. Furthermore, SC2 has arrived at a time when the skill differential isn't quite as vast as it was in BW, and interest in e-sports is much higher (could NASL have even dreamed of existing in 1998? I submit to you absolutely not). Don't be close-minded and scared of an amazing opportunity!
That depends if the NASL is the Olympics or the homegrown leagues (Chinese Basketball Association, NBA).
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I think we are all scared about this issue, because on the people who are the "Face" of NASL so far.
Clearly, those people have shown to have a group of "friends" and groups of people they disrespect. So how can we trust them to be impartial in picking the 50 players?
Other scary issues....
*Idra moved back to play in the NASL and such.. why would he move back if Korean's can play, while playing in Code S?
*They didn't contact oGs, or other Korean's about applying... hence the late applications of oGs members (btw... MC should get a FEDEX inviting him to come.... he shouldn't have to even apply)
These thing lead us to fear top Korean's will be excluded.
My guess: they will invite a disappointing amount of Korean talent (5 or less)... and give some excuse for why that was the only feasible option.
Hope I'm wrong....
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On March 18 2011 04:20 Sm3agol wrote:
Why do we have to "limit" the amount of koreans when we can easily solve the problem by inviting players by region....evenly. 15 NA players, 15 EU players, 15 Korea players and 5 from the other region(Moonglade etc).
QFT add this to op.
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It's a 50 man all invite tourny. Does it really matter who they choose? People are going to be pissed either way.
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EPT
