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You know...there would be none of this controversy at all if NASL had done what any proper tournament organization had done in the first place - had qualifiers to allow people to get a place as one of the first 50.
Then there would have been no discussion at all of playing favorites, of koreans being limited, etc etc. The best would have gotten in and it would have been fair for everyone. It's obvious that isn't the case right now. And it's not a good way to start off an organization / league by inviting in-crowders and people u want in instead of having the best players playing, proving they are the best.
The only reason you would not have qualifers like that is if you were afraid that people you wanted in would not get in...well guess what? No one should be entitled. Look at TSL. Anyone could qualify for it, it didn't exclude anyone, and aside from some invites, people had to earn their spots in the tournament. Even if you weren't known, or didn't "know the right people," you could still get into TSL.
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On March 19 2011 03:27 Ome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 23:59 Uriel_SVK wrote:Hey, you know what... there will be ice hockey world championship in Slovakia, but we decided that Canada, Russia, Sweden and Czech republic can not play. They are too good, they are always on first places and it would be nice to give a chance to weaker teams... Yeah, we want gold for Slovakia again  I don't know how much that helps your argument, considering Canada could field several teams with the chance to win the tournament, but would be limited to one team, exactly what it seems the NASL rules are restricting.
Several people seem to want no koreans at all or limiting to Code A even not in Code A at all, including the one that started this discussion on the other thread. And I doubt the hockey tounament lets you field one team, but only with sub 20 players while the rest of the teams are able to field their full force.
If NASL stated they would only invite 5-10 of the best koreans, I dont think this discussion would happen, or at least wouldn't be this big.
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Yeah i think everyone agrees with that at least. I see threads on other forums even with most people wondering why its an invitational.
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i think FXO are doing a good job in their selection, the run many $1500 qualifier for there GSL sized prize pool tournament. many of the top Koreans are also entering like MKP and MC. This is the fair way of doing it instead of pure invitational.
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On March 19 2011 03:35 avilo wrote:
You know...there would be none of this controversy at all if NASL had done what any proper tournament organization had done in the first place - had qualifiers to allow people to get a place as one of the first 50.
Then there would have been no discussion at all of playing favorites, of koreans being limited, etc etc. The best would have gotten in and it would have been fair for everyone. It's obvious that isn't the case right now. And it's not a good way to start off an organization / league by inviting in-crowders and people u want in instead of having the best players playing, proving they are the best.
The only reason you would not have qualifers like that is if you were afraid that people you wanted in would not get in...well guess what? No one should be entitled. Look at TSL. Anyone could qualify for it, it didn't exclude anyone, and aside from some invites, people had to earn their spots in the tournament. Even if you weren't known, or didn't "know the right people," you could still get into TSL.
That's what I've been trying to say forever. Not even a little bronze baby Terran who gets smashed by zergs all day could agree with Avilo more than I do right now.
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On March 19 2011 03:35 avilo wrote:
You know...there would be none of this controversy at all if NASL had done what any proper tournament organization had done in the first place - had qualifiers to allow people to get a place as one of the first 50.
Then there would have been no discussion at all of playing favorites, of koreans being limited, etc etc. The best would have gotten in and it would have been fair for everyone. It's obvious that isn't the case right now. And it's not a good way to start off an organization / league by inviting in-crowders and people u want in instead of having the best players playing, proving they are the best.
The only reason you would not have qualifers like that is if you were afraid that people you wanted in would not get in...well guess what? No one should be entitled. Look at TSL. Anyone could qualify for it, it didn't exclude anyone, and aside from some invites, people had to earn their spots in the tournament. Even if you weren't known, or didn't "know the right people," you could still get into TSL.
How about the Koreans in TSL? Did they qualify?
And after season 1, I believe they have a decent amount (16 I think!) of new players that will enter through qualification. So it's just the 1st season where players like yourself don't have a chance to compete. There are lots of yournaments where (a part of the) players are invited.
And even for season one, 1 player can qualify for the playoffs!
How can you whine about every single thing in the NASL? (this isn't the first subject you are complaining about). How is the NASL not a good thing? There are always areas where a new big tournament can improve, but it still is a good thing.
(As a spectator and a SC2fan: I am really hoping to see the best players battle it out. I do not "know the right people", but if I did I'd tell them to pick the best players, and leave players like you behind crying on the forums about how unfair it all is.)
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During GOM Season 3, July was to take 4th place when the top 3 only were awarded a trip to Blizzcon. SuperDanileMan and Tasteless both commented that July was upset that he wasn't going to get to come play in America, iirc SDM said that a shot to come play for foreign fans was what was driving him to win not, at the time, the largest single paycheck in BW. Later on KeSPA/GOM changed their own rules and basically sent CJ Entus regardless of positioning.
I think the point about withdrawn, introverted, "boring" Koreans ring true in some cases, but there are guys who may not be the best but do have a desire to participate beyond money. I think people like July (or a converted Jaedong) should be favored...basically anyone who Tasteless and Artosis think would most genuinely enjoy competing for the foreign fans.
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On March 19 2011 01:09 Alver wrote:
na/eu players dont need to win to develop na/eu teams, imo it would be FAR better for the non korean teams to play koreans so the world can see they compete on the same level.
sponsors dont need their people to win tournaments to benefit, they just need their players to play as good of people as possible (win or loose) so people watch the games and they get more advertising value. once their players names get big enough by constantly being seen in the highest quality matches, then the sponsors can invest more and the players can get good salaries.
if your people win frequently against players who arent worth watching, then the player who wins can easily pay his bills but if theres not enough viewer interest in each game, then sponsorship money wont increase and they will require tournament wins to pay bills forever.
i know if theres no koreans id only watch my 2-3 of my favorite players in group then watch the whole offline event. if there are atleast 10 of my favorite koreans, i will watch every online match because i want to see how non koreans do against koreans. i will even watch players ive never heard of before if they play a korean just because i want to see how they do.
As long as NASL keeps inviting NA/EU players regardless of their performance, maybe. But if NASL ends up with 50 Koreans then, yeah, things could be quite different and I could see it hurting the player base of the NA/EU scene.
There are opportunity advantages in Korea which allow Korean pro-gamers to pursue pro-gaming as a full-time vocation. Tyler talked about this a long time ago with respect to BW but it's still relatively true for SC 2. If there isn't a way to make a living in this field there wouldn't be pro players except, I suppose, people who are so rich that they don't need to work. But such people usually aren't interested in practicing 8-12 hrs a day anyways.
NASL's success with regards to its audience and its success with respect to the NA/EU players might be separate issues. Most people on TL would probably watch NASL even if it's just another GSL in NA prime time. But having another GSL doesn't really help NA/EU players, most of whom simply do not have the circumstances to pursue pro-gaming as a full-time job. NASL was supposed to be a step towards that as well, or at least that's the impression I got.
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I really don't understan the "I only want to watch Koreans so NASL should only be koreans" crowd. Why would you want two gsl's? There is already a league for what you want. The Koreans playing are going to be playing with lag on the NA server, you won't even be seeing them at the top of their skill. Whether they win or lose will probably get blamed on the lag anyway.
(be realistic about this; no top Koreans are actually going to move to the us for an online tournament. They're in it for the money, they're going to stay in korea and play gsl and NASL at the same time.)
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On March 19 2011 04:59 strongandbig wrote:
I really don't understan the "I only want to watch Koreans so NASL should only be koreans" crowd. Why would you want two gsl's? There is already a league for what you want. The Koreans playing are going to be playing with lag on the NA server, you won't even be seeing them at the top of their skill. Whether they win or lose will probably get blamed on the lag anyway.
(be realistic about this; no top Koreans are actually going to move to the us for an online tournament. They're in it for the money, they're going to stay in korea and play gsl and NASL at the same time.)
This is true, too. I'm really dreading the cries of lag on every single LR thread of NASL whenever foreigners are playing against Koreans. But this could be fixed with a policy on TL against screaming lag if it starts swamping the threads.
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On March 19 2011 03:35 avilo wrote:
You know...there would be none of this controversy at all if NASL had done what any proper tournament organization had done in the first place - had qualifiers to allow people to get a place as one of the first 50.
Then there would have been no discussion at all of playing favorites, of koreans being limited, etc etc. The best would have gotten in and it would have been fair for everyone. It's obvious that isn't the case right now. And it's not a good way to start off an organization / league by inviting in-crowders and people u want in instead of having the best players playing, proving they are the best.
The only reason you would not have qualifers like that is if you were afraid that people you wanted in would not get in...well guess what? No one should be entitled. Look at TSL. Anyone could qualify for it, it didn't exclude anyone, and aside from some invites, people had to earn their spots in the tournament. Even if you weren't known, or didn't "know the right people," you could still get into TSL.
... Or they could think that one tournament is a worse measure of a player than performance over a year of sc2. There are several people in the TSL who probably don't deserve to be there, but who had one really good day.
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On March 19 2011 04:59 strongandbig wrote:
I really don't understan the "I only want to watch Koreans so NASL should only be koreans" crowd. Why would you want two gsl's? There is already a league for what you want. The Koreans playing are going to be playing with lag on the NA server, you won't even be seeing them at the top of their skill. Whether they win or lose will probably get blamed on the lag anyway.
(be realistic about this; no top Koreans are actually going to move to the us for an online tournament. They're in it for the money, they're going to stay in korea and play gsl and NASL at the same time.)
I don't see anyone saying make it all Koreans.... just the top ones... .top 15 would be good IMO.
And we don't care if they live here.... we just want to see all the matchups.
Nada vs Kiwikai
July vs Morrow
Boxer vs Huk
WhiteRa vs IMMVP
MC vs Idra
MarineKing vs TLO
Kas vs Nestea
Sjow vs Fruitdealer
Tester vs Incontrol
NASL can make it happen..... those players want to make it happen (except maybe that last one listed)........ and because NASL will have so many games between players because of the league setup... it WILL HAPPEN
just so long as they have the sense to invite the Koreans who want to come!
They better do it.... or else Teamliquid.net will have its first ever "Day of Rage" and the dictatorships could go down.
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On March 19 2011 04:59 strongandbig wrote:
I really don't understan the "I only want to watch Koreans so NASL should only be koreans" crowd. Why would you want two gsl's? There is already a league for what you want. The Koreans playing are going to be playing with lag on the NA server, you won't even be seeing them at the top of their skill. Whether they win or lose will probably get blamed on the lag anyway.
(be realistic about this; no top Koreans are actually going to move to the us for an online tournament. They're in it for the money, they're going to stay in korea and play gsl and NASL at the same time.)
Who said they ONLY want koreans?
I think most ppl just want the koreans to get a fair chance.
They made an application video in english (not their native) like all the others so why should they would not be given a chance besides the fact they are korean? That is the point here.
And congrats, they are in it for the money, well guess what, MOST ppl are no matter where they are from.Or are you honestly telling me that a lot of foreigners (not saying all) that are going to korea to participate in the GSL are not doing it for the money? if you honestly think that, you are delusional.
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On March 19 2011 04:59 strongandbig wrote:
I really don't understan the "I only want to watch Koreans so NASL should only be koreans" crowd. Why would you want two gsl's? There is already a league for what you want. The Koreans playing are going to be playing with lag on the NA server, you won't even be seeing them at the top of their skill. Whether they win or lose will probably get blamed on the lag anyway.
(be realistic about this; no top Koreans are actually going to move to the us for an online tournament. They're in it for the money, they're going to stay in korea and play gsl and NASL at the same time.)
If there were already 3 GSL's... i would rather have a 4th GSL, than have another B league to watch second rate play.
There is plenty of second rate play to watch online.... http://www.sc2casts.com go... enjoy... you can watch that level of competition you want all day there! You can't see NADA, JULY, WHITERA. BOXER, MC, Idra, Huk.... all the time.
People who don't want Koreans, must be people who CANNOT be fans of them simply because of the racial/language/cultural differences. I'm white, don't speak Korean and live in California... but I'm a fan on ST_July, and MC, and all those guys...not because of race/culture... but because they are AWESOME at a game that i think is AWESOME!
If you love this game... you want to see it played at the highest level.
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On March 19 2011 05:06 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 03:35 avilo wrote:
You know...there would be none of this controversy at all if NASL had done what any proper tournament organization had done in the first place - had qualifiers to allow people to get a place as one of the first 50.
Then there would have been no discussion at all of playing favorites, of koreans being limited, etc etc. The best would have gotten in and it would have been fair for everyone. It's obvious that isn't the case right now. And it's not a good way to start off an organization / league by inviting in-crowders and people u want in instead of having the best players playing, proving they are the best.
The only reason you would not have qualifers like that is if you were afraid that people you wanted in would not get in...well guess what? No one should be entitled. Look at TSL. Anyone could qualify for it, it didn't exclude anyone, and aside from some invites, people had to earn their spots in the tournament. Even if you weren't known, or didn't "know the right people," you could still get into TSL.
... Or they could think that one tournament is a worse measure of a player than performance over a year of sc2. There are several people in the TSL who probably don't deserve to be there, but who had one really good day.
That's the beauty of the TSL qualifiers. It's a bunch of tournaments. You can get in for consistent performance or one showing of how good you can play, though I would have liked them to start with bo3 from the beginning.
The thing is there's people who are practically shoe-ins for TSL who have won literally nothing and haven't even come close to doing so. I don't know why NA as a community is always so willing to downplay actually winning things/being successful at the game. At some point it just gets too much for me to take seriously.
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On March 17 2011 17:22 vetinari wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 16:52 Kazeyonoma wrote:On March 17 2011 16:50 zerglingsfolife wrote:On March 17 2011 16:41 Deindar wrote:On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:
basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate. i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die. That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap? they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort. No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea. And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream. To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule.
To kazeyonoma
You cant possibly say they love the game more than we do just because they have more opportunities than us.
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On March 19 2011 05:06 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 04:59 strongandbig wrote:
I really don't understan the "I only want to watch Koreans so NASL should only be koreans" crowd. Why would you want two gsl's? There is already a league for what you want. The Koreans playing are going to be playing with lag on the NA server, you won't even be seeing them at the top of their skill. Whether they win or lose will probably get blamed on the lag anyway.
(be realistic about this; no top Koreans are actually going to move to the us for an online tournament. They're in it for the money, they're going to stay in korea and play gsl and NASL at the same time.)
I don't see anyone saying make it all Koreans.... just the top ones... .top 15 would be good IMO. And we don't care if they live here.... we just want to see all the matchups. Nada vs Kiwikai July vs Morrow Boxer vs Huk WhiteRa vs IMMVP MC vs Idra MarineKing vs TLO Kas vs Nestea Sjow vs Fruitdealer Tester vs Incontrol NASL can make it happen..... those players want to make it happen (except maybe that last one listed)........ and because NASL will have so many games between players because of the league setup... it WILL HAPPEN just so long as they have the sense to invite the Koreans who want to come! They better do it.... or else Teamliquid.net will have its first ever "Day of Rage" and the dictatorships could go down.
Try the poll on the first page of this thread... "we want Koreans even if it means few or no NA/eu players"
In reply to your second post quoting me: the only way competitive sc2 will have a chance to exist outside of Korea is if there is some push that prompts foreigner teams to set up team houses and train professionally like Koreans do. That won't happen if they don't have a realistic chance to win tournaments or leagues with big prize pools.
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So everyone is pretty excited for TSL3 right? Now what if I told you a bunch of players from TSL3 and some more top players would be playing against each other in a league that will be airing five nights a week? Pretty fucking awesome right? I mean top Koreans and foreigners competing against each other on a regular basis? Thats pretty fucking sweet. Oh wait, what? Thats what the NASL is? HOLY SHIT THATS AWESOME!!!
I really don't understand why people continue to complain about this. Its awesome and is definitely going to help grow sc2 in the west, regardless of who wins.
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I really don't understand why people continue to complain about this. Its awesome and is definitely going to help grow sc2 in the west, regardless of who wins.
Because these B teamers know they will never win if the top of the top players are invited.
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Invite the best of the best....I hate when people just stereotype against Koreans because of their success. Yes their lifestyle is a lot different than most Americans as they play and talk about SC2 all the time but who's fault is that? We can do that with teams, practice partners, etc. Just because you are Korean, doesn't automatically make you better or have an advantage. It just means you're Korean. Try to create a lifestyle like theirs and then maybe you can be considered a "top Korean." But regardless, it should be the best of the best. It will help the western e-sports scene because of the quality of the matches. I rather watch an epic 44 min battle of the tip top players of the world than the tip top players of America (no offense).
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EPT
