EPTNASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 101
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Hyst3ria
United States167 Posts
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:01 SaturnAttack wrote: You know we can speculate over merits of Korean participation all day, but if they are that much better than foreigners then I am sure the 16 qualifiers for next season will be Korean heavy. So without limits, it seems like they'd take over eventually anyways right?  (Again big emphasis on the fact they have a big gap on foreigners.)haha yea ive said that in a previous post in this 100 page thread, so i completetly agree assuming the koreans know there is an open for the tournament eventually after a few season we will see some korean domination anyways | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On March 18 2011 11:07 Hyst3ria wrote: Theres a reason why this is called the North American Star League. The Koreans have their own star league and its bad for the players to have conflicting schedules between the two. GSL isn't the Korean Star League, and it's not just for them. The Koreans have been nothing but accommodating and encouraging for foreigners. They WANT us to come play in GSL. If NASL means only NA players, we should cut out all the South Americans and all the Europeans and all the Chinese and Taiwanese players. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:31 Bobster wrote: Unofficial word is that the 100k will be distributed among the top 16, with a $500 travel stipend added on top for everyone. Hm, I'm not seeing the second 1024 man tournament. There's only the green one. The purple Next Season Qualifier doesn't explicitly state who will be participating, except for the bottom 16 that are out. The way I'm seeing it is that these bottom 16 are the only ones to play in the purple NSQ, sort of a last chance type of deal. Think up and down matches. So it'd be only 8 people actually dropping out. If they've detailed the purple Next Season Qualifier anywhere, please share. "Both of these tournaments will be a single elimination tournament capped at 1024 players, in which all matches are best of three. These tournaments will have a small entry fee charged per player. " the 2 tournaments they are talking about are in the first and second paragraph above that. " The Open Tournament will be open to any player who is not currently in the league – the top 8 players in this tournament will qualify for Season 2 in addition to the winner being granted a spot in the Grand Finals of Season 1. Lastly, we will host a Season Qualifier tournament from which the top 8 players will be given seats to Season 2. The Season Qualifier is open to any player who has not qualified for Season 2." as it states both of these tournaments will be capped at 1024 players. The first tournament doesnt allow the players who have dropped out of league to participate (obviously because we wont know whos out of the league yet) the second tournament is pretty much the same thing but it gives a chance for players that dropped out of the league to try and get back in both are 1024 man tournaments and are pretty much the same thing its just that one happens before the league begins or while the league is under way, and the other one happens after the season is over and allows players who dropped out in season 1 to try their luck again in a similair qualifers to the first. | ||
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underdawg
United States399 Posts
On March 18 2011 11:11 Turgid wrote: GSL isn't the Korean Star League, and it's not just for them. The Koreans have been nothing but accommodating and encouraging for foreigners. They WANT us to come play in GSL. If NASL means only NA players, we should cut out all the South Americans and all the Europeans and all the Chinese and Taiwanese players. seriously. no one is expecting NASL to get highly regarded korean casters to broadcast on the internet to koreans, or set up a "korean house" or give random wild cards to koreans, or play a version of starcraft in english...and GSL doesn't require an application vid in korean... | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote: Holy shit. How hard is this for you and people to understand? It's not about race. Why the hell would big companies want to put fucktons of money to a niche thing in the USA if people in the USA end up not interested in said niche thing? Some people here live in this exciting dream world of the future of e-sports where everything and everyone has rainbows shooting out of their asses. It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there. People need to stop saying there is racism involved. It's called starting a business. Now, I am in agreement that the best players should play, but if that were the case as I mentioned before, they would have done completely un-biased qualifiers where the best players will earn their way in. As is, they are hand picking 50 people. You have to be one of those lucky few ordained into the tournament, whether you are GSL champ, or anyone else. There has to be something established in North America with long term viability and viewability, and that ideally attracts big business people. People posting here are not getting the point. I'm not racist. And you are not racist. But the average viewer that will ever possibly tune into this type of niche thing, assuming anyone ever wants SC on TV in North America, well...they may not be racist, but they also will be entirely uninterested if it's a "circle jerk" of koreans owning up the league 24/7, or a "circle jerk" of auto-invited in-crowders. I think that's what people are not really getting here...of course all of us on teamliquid would watch the NASL no matter what, but the NASL isn't about getting us to watch - we're all already probably going to. It's about getting NA viewers to want to watch. Other people have already addressed this, but I'll respond anyways. The companies you are referring to are not US companies anymore. This is the same flaw in judgement naive people have when trusting the integrity of such companies in a political setting. They are multinational corporations. They don't care for the US anymore than they care for anyone that might buy their products. It doesn't matter to them if they are selling their products to Americans, Europeans, Koreans, or Chinese. They want exposure, period. We are not talking about locally operated mom and pop stores when we are talking about Intel, AMD, Coca-Cola, Sony, Nvidia, etc. You keep talking about the success and viewership of the NASL in the US. You think that it didn't put a huge smile on the faces of their corporate sponsors when the Bucks played the Rockets years ago and Yi Jian Lian vs. Yao Ming became the most watched NBA game in history? You don't think the globalization of the league helped in transcontinental investment with Chinese corporations taking interest in NBA ownership and a Russian billionaire acquiring majority ownership of the Nets? This isn't about setting up a league for North Americans to appeal to North Americans. It was advertised as the best of the best in terms of its competitors and there was never any question of whether or not top EU players would be invited. With the type of money that is backing it, It should be about setting up the best and biggest Starcraft competition possible and making that appeal to the casual base through developing story lines, player backgrounds, and general production quality. Even the US viewership has shown time and time again that they want to watch the highest level of competition regardless of racial make-up. It just so happens that the NBA, NFL, MLB are the highest level of competition in their respective sports (and in the case of the NBA and to a lesser extent the MLB, are rather diverse leagues). But, when you look at soccer, do you think that the MLS is more popular than La Liga? Or the English Premiere League? Or Serie A? This is like the democrats in the last election alienating their base and wondering why they got their ass kicked in the recent elections due to a lack of enthusiasm on their side. If you ban Koreans from attending and dilute the quality of competition, is there any guarantee that TL members and nerds the world over will watch it? Hell no. I knew me and my friends had limited interest in the NASL before the recent infusion of korean application VODs. If anything, TL members know when you're BSing them and will be the quickest to take offense and criticize something -- just look at the shit storm surrounding GSL code A casters. You think casual viewers cared about Kelly Milkies? The NASL is about securing the base and foundation of support and then expanding outwards. Judging from this topic, TL wants Koreans in it and more than just a handful. | ||
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Sakenator
United States45 Posts
To achieve this goal they need to generate enough hype to attract the necessary viewers in order to entice advertisers to invest money in the progaming scene. I think the people running NASL are intelligent enough to know that to generate that buzz they need English speaking gamers to win. This is because americans can relate to an english speaking winner who lives in the states. This will attract more viewers, and lead to better advertisers to invest which will generate greater prize pools which will eventually lead to the funding necessary to start having progaming houses in the USA so that they can rival Korean teams. So knowing this they are not going to invite many Koreans and the Koreans they do invite are going to be low caliber. At least thats what they are going to do if they are smart businessmen | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On March 18 2011 11:57 Sakenator wrote: I know that the NASL has a certain listed purpose of having "the very best players in the world" but thats not really their intended purpose IMO. The point of the NASL is to promote the same kind of environment for progaming in the United States as they have in Korea. To do this they need to allow players to have gaming houses where they can train 12+ hours a day just like the Koreans do. To achieve this goal they need to generate enough hype to attract the necessary viewers in order to entice advertisers to invest money in the progaming scene. I think the people running NASL are intelligent enough to know that to generate that buzz they need English speaking gamers to win. This is because americans can relate to an english speaking winner who lives in the states. This will attract more viewers, and lead to better advertisers to invest which will generate greater prize pools which will eventually lead to the funding necessary to start having progaming houses in the USA so that they can rival Korean teams. So knowing this they are not going to invite many Koreans and the Koreans they do invite are going to be low caliber. At least thats what they are going to do if they are smart businessmen The thing is, foreigners need progaming houses BECAUSE of the korean competition. If there is no korean in the league, then foreigners don't have to go full-time progaming. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On March 18 2011 11:57 Sakenator wrote: I think the people running NASL are intelligent enough to know that to generate that buzz they need English speaking gamers to win. This is because americans can relate to an english speaking winner who lives in the states. This will attract more viewers, and lead to better advertisers to invest which will generate greater prize pools which will eventually lead to the funding necessary to start having progaming houses in the USA so that they can rival Korean teams. So knowing this they are not going to invite many Koreans and the Koreans they do invite are going to be low caliber. At least thats what they are going to do if they are smart businessmen So that makes rigging the tournament justified? And as an aside, i dont understand everyone comparing NASL to the NBA or NFL. Its not a team sport, and a player can play in MULTIPLE tournaments, they arent just tied to one. Its more like Tennis or F1 where there are several large tournaments and the best players play in the biggest most prestigious tournaments. | ||
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gozima
Canada602 Posts
It's similar to International Cinema. A lot of countries around the world limit the amount of American movies in theatres in order to grow their own domestic films. The same logic should be applied to the NASL. Having 30+ Koreans in the NASL isn't a very smart decision if you're trying to reach a larger NA audience, and also trying to develop more NA talent. There was way too much initial hype surrounding this league. The organizers should have thought things through a little more before raising peoples expectations to ridiculous levels. I think a lot of people thought this league would be something similar to the GSL, but with more white dudes. At this point, I'd be happy if the NASL is 50% as entertaining as the GSL. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On March 18 2011 05:14 Snaphoo wrote: Here's an analogy I'm surprised that a lot of people aren't making: In 1992 the "Dream Team" (Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Malone, Stockton, etc.) was the greatest assembly of basketball players in the world. When unleashed on the international community in the '92 Olympics, it was, predictably, a bloodbath. BUT! The excitement of seeing the best of the best playing against the rest of the world sent interest in the sport SOARING around the world. In the years since, while the US (and NBA) easily retain their position as the premier center for global basketball, the sport has grown, and the skill level has significantly closed. It is no longer a world-altering event for the US to lose in tournament play to a Greece or Lithuania every once in awhile, even if the US is favored. It's not surprising to see foreign players (Nowitzki, Yao, Ginobli) lead their teams to NBA Finals, win the All-Star voting, or make a lot of noise leading their national teams in the Olympics. NASL has an opportunity to TRULY be a global StarCraft league by allowing the best of the best from across the world to compete. Even if MC or NesTea wins the whole thing, it would bridge the gap between the KR and foreign scenes like nothing else, and perhaps be a catalyst for e-sports to grow in popularity even faster. Furthermore, SC2 has arrived at a time when the skill differential isn't quite as vast as it was in BW, and interest in e-sports is much higher (could NASL have even dreamed of existing in 1998? I submit to you absolutely not). Don't be close-minded and scared of an amazing opportunity! THIS. And this analogy is perfect for both sides.......Basketball didn't get big by just having the "best of the best", aka, the Americans, play each other and expect the rest of the world to watch it in awe. No, they played some terrible farking teams from all countries, not just "the best". Sure, USA vs Germany in '92 was a complete joke of a game,,,,but look at Gernmay now...They aren't world beaters, but they field very solid, competitive teams. NONE of this would have happened if EITHER extreme had prevailed. If the best USA players were banned from the Olympics, then the world would never have seen what was possible to do in basketball. Conversely, if people just wanted, "the best of the best", then the USA team would never have played that terrible German team and Dirk Nowitzki would be a sad 7'0 giant sitting in a supermarket somewhere instead of leading his team to close to the top of the NBAs Western Division. We need both sides people. We need a good showing by the Koreans.....but we also need "our boys" out there competing against them so they can get better themselves. There is no other option if you want this thing to have a future. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On March 18 2011 12:31 gozima wrote: It's similar to International Cinema. A lot of countries around the world limit the amount of American movies in theatres in order to grow their own domestic films. The same logic should be applied to the NASL. Having 30+ Koreans in the NASL isn't a very smart decision if you're trying to reach a larger NA audience, and also trying to develop more NA talent. . How can you say "same logic should be applied to the nasl"? The limited amount of american movies in theatres are non-living things. As for NASL, this is people we are talking about, human beings. I don't think people should be treated differently based on their race and opting to do whatever it takes to get a more favourable outcome (such as enhancing viewer rates) doesn't justify such mistreatment. | ||
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.Mystic
Canada486 Posts
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Personally I am fine with an unlimited cap on players. Let the best players from anywhere play. That would make it a world class tournament. Who cares if it requires less sacrifice for them than it does for other people to play in the GSL. I care more about seeing the highest skill in gaming than connecting with local players. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On March 16 2011 06:50 spancho wrote: Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL. Edit: Basically what Im saying is that if a Korean is willing to sacrifice playing in the GSL, and willing to live in the US, then they should be able to play. I would be perfectly happy if the entire tourney was Korean, as long as they had to make the same choice that Huk and Jinro did. To be fair, that would mean that Huk and Jinro couldnt play in the NASL so maybe this would be a bad policy. agreed with this one, they should come to USA in case they can join in | ||
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nymeria
United States161 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:46 avilo wrote: Holy shit. How hard is this for you and people to understand? It's not about race. Why the hell would big companies want to put fucktons of money to a niche thing in the USA if people in the USA end up not interested in said niche thing? Some people here live in this exciting dream world of the future of e-sports where everything and everyone has rainbows shooting out of their asses. It's not about race, it's about viewability in North America. Does the average american slob want to turn on their TV and watch football on ESPN, or would they rather turn on ESPN and watch "random asian dudes own white guys." The answer is very obvious there. People need to stop saying there is racism involved. It's called starting a business. Now, I am in agreement that the best players should play, but if that were the case as I mentioned before, they would have done completely un-biased qualifiers where the best players will earn their way in. As is, they are hand picking 50 people. You have to be one of those lucky few ordained into the tournament, whether you are GSL champ, or anyone else. There has to be something established in North America with long term viability and viewability, and that ideally attracts big business people. People posting here are not getting the point. I'm not racist. And you are not racist. But the average viewer that will ever possibly tune into this type of niche thing, assuming anyone ever wants SC on TV in North America, well...they may not be racist, but they also will be entirely uninterested if it's a "circle jerk" of koreans owning up the league 24/7, or a "circle jerk" of auto-invited in-crowders. I think that's what people are not really getting here...of course all of us on teamliquid would watch the NASL no matter what, but the NASL isn't about getting us to watch - we're all already probably going to. It's about getting NA viewers to want to watch. ESPN columnist, author, and podcaster Bill Simmons has repeatedly stated over the years that the American public wants to watch the best play, and that that is one of the major reasons professional American soccer leagues have had trouble taking off in the US, while viewership and interest in World Cup/Premier League soccer is growing. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On March 18 2011 13:07 2GRe-Play- wrote: agreed with this one, they should come to USA in case they can join in /facepalm Again, the comparison is unfair and does not make sense. GSL is a 100% offline tournament, you NEED to be physically there in order to compete. Whereas NASL is an online tournament for the most part, only the ro8 and so on are played offline. Also what about non-american players? What about the canadians, europeans, australians, asian players? Should they too move to USA in order to participate? | ||
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
Look at the show "jersey shore" about a bunch of italians guidos or w.e. talking with their funny accents and stuff . its pretty popular here.Koreans i'm sure will display very entertaining games. more so than these top foreigners. I don't watch a show and be like oh, there's a guy from japan is on, im not gonna watch it. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On March 18 2011 13:00 AzureD wrote: Why are people comparing GSL to NASL? Judge the way the tournament is run on its own merits. Who cares how GSL does things. Personally I am fine with an unlimited cap on players. Let the best players from anywhere play. That would make it a world class tournament. Who cares if it requires less sacrifice for them than it does for other people to play in the GSL. I care more about seeing the highest skill in gaming than connecting with local players. I think thats what a vast majority of people care about, especially because most of this tournament is in an offline format interaction with players is going to be limited it is all about having the best possible games from the best players from all over the world, no one is saying it should be all koreans in the NASL most people are saying they would like to see a balance of the best players from each region duking it out for a huge prize pool | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
If NASL is to be taken seriously it should field the best players in the world, not out high level competition so lower level players can make the cut. Anybody who cares about SC and its success does not want to watch someone who does not belong in a starleague getting stomped, open up any code A thread and read the whining about low level play. id imagine you dont turn off the Olympics because theirs non Americans competing and winning, you should not turn off SC because an american is not winning either. Like i said above, if you love truly love the game you will love all the people that compete at the highest level. I was an adamant runner in high school and some of my biggest role models were African and European, it did not matter to me where they were from it mattered the heart they had and the love of what they did, being one of the best to ever compete. | ||
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