On March 16 2011 06:50 spancho wrote: Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL.
Edit: Basically what Im saying is that if a Korean is willing to sacrifice playing in the GSL, and willing to live in the US, then they should be able to play. I would be perfectly happy if the entire tourney was Korean, as long as they had to make the same choice that Huk and Jinro did. To be fair, that would mean that Huk and Jinro couldnt play in the NASL so maybe this would be a bad policy.
agreed with this one, they should come to USA in case they can join in
/facepalm Again, the comparison is unfair and does not make sense. GSL is a 100% offline tournament, you NEED to be physically there in order to compete. Whereas NASL is an online tournament for the most part, only the ro8 and so on are played offline.
Also what about non-american players? What about the canadians, europeans, australians, asian players? Should they too move to USA in order to participate?
lol yeah if the NASL wants to shoot itself in the foot by being an unestablished offline tournament, annoying the hell out of everyone who doesn't live in LA, then whatever. i still got my GSL tix. one key difference is that i'm sure GSL never decided to have it offline specifically to make it harder for foreigners, but some of these geniuses want to make it offline specifically so koreans can prove how much they want it.
On March 16 2011 06:50 spancho wrote: Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL.
Edit: Basically what Im saying is that if a Korean is willing to sacrifice playing in the GSL, and willing to live in the US, then they should be able to play. I would be perfectly happy if the entire tourney was Korean, as long as they had to make the same choice that Huk and Jinro did. To be fair, that would mean that Huk and Jinro couldnt play in the NASL so maybe this would be a bad policy.
agreed with this one, they should come to USA in case they can join in
/facepalm Again, the comparison is unfair and does not make sense. GSL is a 100% offline tournament, you NEED to be physically there in order to compete. Whereas NASL is an online tournament for the most part, only the ro8 and so on are played offline.
Also what about non-american players? What about the canadians, europeans, australians, asian players? Should they too move to USA in order to participate?
lol yeah if the NASL wants to shoot itself in the foot by being an unestablished offline tournament, annoying the hell out of everyone who doesn't live in LA, then whatever. i still got my GSL tix. one key difference is that i'm sure GSL never decided to have it offline specifically to make it harder for foreigners, but some of these geniuses want to make it offline specifically so koreans can prove how much they want it.
Ok I could understand this, but in my opinion the korean players' have so much dedication and love for the competition; these two things alone should definitely grant them spots, or at least, make them deserve some.
Sorry if this argument has been made before, but I frankly do not have time to read through all the posts here. Most things are created in order to make money, and I think it's naive to think that the NASL is any different.
If NASL was open to all the Koreans, I wouldn't be surprised if there were about 20-30 koreans in the tournament at least. If that were indeed the case it would be more likely that a Korean would win and take that money back to Korea and his team instead of a EU or NA team. This would mean that there would be less opportunities for NA and EU teams to gain the resources to focus on SC2 full time the way the good Korean teams can. Without the ability to win tournaments and money, the EU and NA teams will continue to lag behind the Korea's due to economic and time constraints.
The NASL is going to try and grow E-Sports here in America, because there is money to be made here. The GSL already exists, and the people who are going to watch GSL are already watching, the NASL is clearly going for a bigger market. Including more foreigners with more established personalities and name recognition they feel they can get more people to watch, and thus more money from sponsors and advertisers.
Not allowing the best Koreans because they are too good is also a bad argument as you don't want to create a minor league mentality. You should invite somewhere between the the top 5 to 10 Koreans to the NASL. Opening it to everyone could make the league bland and simply GSL2.
It is much easier to create excitement for a match if its something like Jinro v. MC than it is two very good code A level korean players that not that many people know. Also I can see more people paying attention something like Nestea v. MVP or something like that, but if the league is open to unlimited Koreans it is just going to be another GSL and not grow esports in america and make the benefactors of NASL more money.
On March 18 2011 15:49 Basileus wrote: Sorry if this argument has been made before, but I frankly do not have time to read through all the posts here. Most things are created in order to make money, and I think it's naive to think that the NASL is any different.
Im sorry, but this simply isnt true.
NASL was created for the love of sc2. Sure sponsors and what not are in it too advertise, but people like Incontrol are doing it purely for the love of sc2.
Look at the daily, Day[9] could be so rich, but hes not, he loves sc2 and does it for free.
So now Boxer has submitted his video. He should be the easiest Korean to create a storyline and drama for. Is there anyone that doesn't think Boxer should be invited?
On March 18 2011 15:49 Basileus wrote: Sorry if this argument has been made before, but I frankly do not have time to read through all the posts here. Most things are created in order to make money, and I think it's naive to think that the NASL is any different.
Im sorry, but this simply isnt true.
NASL was created for the love of sc2.
wow, what a naive post
NASL is purely here, because of money. Sure incontrol and some guys had personal interest, but this whole thing is just business. They certainly would not do this thing if they would not get money for this.
Also, GSL is produced and advertised program product which is just business.
If the league excludes top Koreans like MC, Nestea and MVP it loses all credibility as a premier league period. "Hey, lets have a premier starcraft league and not let the people who are perceived as the best in the world compete." It's completely moronic. Plus this is a great opportunity to finally shuck the mentality that the Koreans are better than the other players, they may dominate at first but intermixing everyone will ultimately lead to the playing field being leveled.
Hey, you know what... there will be ice hockey world championship in Slovakia, but we decided that Canada, Russia, Sweden and Czech republic can not play. They are too good, they are always on first places and it would be nice to give a chance to weaker teams... Yeah, we want gold for Slovakia again
Anyone can apply (including Koreans), as long as they are on a gaming team (not sure if the team has to meet some set level of sponsorship/notoriety) and they commit to go to the July LAN held in California. Incontrol stated that perhaps there will be a cap on Koreans at five max, but this isn't set in stone*. There is a cap on the number of players from each team, set at five. EG and Liquid, in other words, can have no more than five players in the event.
There will also be an open tournament that anyone can enter to determine who advances to one of the spots in the final sixteen. * -this is not set in stone so I removed it...
I think giving special rules to koreans is stupid If they want to participate, and they fulfilled all requests for NASL, they should be given a chance. If there will be only koreans in round of 16, it only means foreigners are not as good as them, and that is not koreans fault. If NASL does want an american player to win the tournament, they should make the tournament for americans only. They made it international, so everyone should have the same chance to win.
Invite 5 but set no cap on the amount that can qualify. If they take the initiative to get into the NASL they should be allowed to join, but I don't like the idea of inviting the entire Code S because they are 'better than foreigners' because then it's just another GSL but in a different location.
I think people are not looking at this from the NASL's point of view. If there are no Koreans playing, then hardly anyone in Korea would bother to watch any NASL matches. If they were to do this, then they are effectively cutting off a huge market for their product (that product being high quality starcraft 2 matches). I don't think anyone would be against having a high-level NA/Euro only league, however from a business standpoint that really isn't a realistic possibility for the NASL given the massive $100,000+ prize pool.
The GSL has a huge prize pool which is made possible in part by the thousands of dollars they bring in from 'foreign' subscriptions to gomtv. While many of these subscriptions would still exist if it was Korean players only, I think its fair to say that players like Jinro, IdrA (before he left), and now HuK are solely responsible for not only a bunch of paying subscriptions but also a lot of us who view the free stream which is all that really matters to Intel, GSkill, and Coke who sponsor the event. Those companies are the backbone to the GSL, and all they simply want is exposure -- and the large 'foreigner' exposure they get is a huge contributing factor to why they sponsor the GSL in the first place. Starcraft players who go to newegg to buy a new computer will often choose g.skill ram and an intel chip simply because they saw that name branded across the GSL. If the GSL forbid 'foreign' players from competing, I'm willing to bet my entire bank account that Coke, Intel, and G.Skill would either cancel their sponsorship or contribute much less from a monetary standpoint to stay on board.
This NASL will be the highest paying SC2 tournament in the world, so for them to exclude a certain demographic of players (especially considering that the Korean demographic just so happens to be the most skilled) simply doesn't make sense and is most likely fiscally impossible unless they are fine losing thousands of dollars from having these events.
I understand your POV is from that of a spectator, and yes I myself would love to see a league with only the best NA and EU players going head to head, however with the NASL that just doesn't seem to be feasible.
TLDR: It is most likely impossible for the NASL to give out $400k in prize pool cash without including the Korean players. Simple as that
On March 16 2011 06:50 spancho wrote: Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL.
Edit: Basically what Im saying is that if a Korean is willing to sacrifice playing in the GSL, and willing to live in the US, then they should be able to play. I would be perfectly happy if the entire tourney was Korean, as long as they had to make the same choice that Huk and Jinro did. To be fair, that would mean that Huk and Jinro couldnt play in the NASL so maybe this would be a bad policy.
agreed with this one, they should come to USA in case they can join in
/facepalm Again, the comparison is unfair and does not make sense. GSL is a 100% offline tournament, you NEED to be physically there in order to compete. Whereas NASL is an online tournament for the most part, only the ro8 and so on are played offline.
Also what about non-american players? What about the canadians, europeans, australians, asian players? Should they too move to USA in order to participate?
lol yeah if the NASL wants to shoot itself in the foot by being an unestablished offline tournament, annoying the hell out of everyone who doesn't live in LA, then whatever. i still got my GSL tix. one key difference is that i'm sure GSL never decided to have it offline specifically to make it harder for foreigners, but some of these geniuses want to make it offline specifically so koreans can prove how much they want it.
Ok I could understand this, but in my opinion the korean players' have so much dedication and love for the competition; these two things alone should definitely grant them spots, or at least, make them deserve some.
If the NASL would say "hey, everyone can participate as long as you qualify here in LA" I guarantee you that the players in Korea would go to the US for the tourney as long as it doesn't interfere with GSL.
It's not like code S/code A players are gonna go "I might not even make it to NASL. I have to go through players like Avilo, Painuser and lots more to make it in".
You do know that NASL is limiting the numbers from Korea so NASL doesn't just become another GSL right?
I believe korean pros have the dedication for it as long as the prize money is big enough which in this case it is. They know that they are a lot better than 90% of the foreign scene.
Its gonna be so fun watching the GSL world championship thing where it is korea vs world.
On March 19 2011 00:38 Effen wrote: I understand your POV is from that of a spectator, and yes I myself would love to see a league with only the best NA and EU players going head to head, however with the NASL that just doesn't seem to be feasible.
MLG, BDL, regional IEM, GCPL, and all the online cups: CraftCup, 4PL, ZOTAC, etc.
You can watch the best NA and EU players going head to head practically every single day.
It's simple, foreigners have been going to Korean tournaments for years, Koreans should be able to do the same. Naturally the NASL has the right to invite whoever they want, but they shouldn't disregard good players just because of their nationality.
na/eu players dont need to win to develop na/eu teams, imo it would be FAR better for the non korean teams to play koreans so the world can see they compete on the same level.
sponsors dont need their people to win tournaments to benefit, they just need their players to play as good of people as possible (win or loose) so people watch the games and they get more advertising value. once their players names get big enough by constantly being seen in the highest quality matches, then the sponsors can invest more and the players can get good salaries.
if your people win frequently against players who arent worth watching, then the player who wins can easily pay his bills but if theres not enough viewer interest in each game, then sponsorship money wont increase and they will require tournament wins to pay bills forever.
i know if theres no koreans id only watch my 2-3 of my favorite players in group then watch the whole offline event. if there are atleast 10 of my favorite koreans, i will watch every online match because i want to see how non koreans do against koreans. i will even watch players ive never heard of before if they play a korean just because i want to see how they do.
On March 18 2011 23:18 Hammurabio wrote: So now Boxer has submitted his video. He should be the easiest Korean to create a storyline and drama for. Is there anyone that doesn't think Boxer should be invited?
I really like the approach that NASL has taken, inviting not only the the best players but the players that will create the best viewing experience to grow the popularity of esports. While I already would support inviting BoxeR, when NASL is taking this approach it seems impossible to deny him. He's the most famous person from the bw scene, and his story will be interesting to sc2 fans.
Also, he's a very creative sc2 player who has shown himself to be quite beatable at this game, so the people who are worried that NASL will be dominated by koreans shouldn't have too much of a problem with him
That said, I also think that inviting former GSL champions like MC, Nestea, MVP will enhance the hype for NASL, and also keep the western players on their toes. I don't want NASL to be the minor leagues of starcraft where you can win money if you're not good enough to get to GSL. It needs to have the best of the best.
To be honest, Starcraft 2 doesn't have the viable audience needed to support a full fledge league just for Western players.
Yeah sure, Husky gets a couple hundred thousand views on his videos, but only a small fraction of those people even play the game and care about the pro scene. Most of them just watch whatever Husky uploads.
On the other hand, the GSTL vods on Korean gom all got hundreds of thousands of views on top of live viewers and the finals between ST and IM got over a million . . .
Therefore, despite SC2 not even being that big in Korea, we need Korean audience to be interested and that can only happen if there are a lot of Korean players.
On March 18 2011 23:59 Uriel_SVK wrote: Hey, you know what... there will be ice hockey world championship in Slovakia, but we decided that Canada, Russia, Sweden and Czech republic can not play. They are too good, they are always on first places and it would be nice to give a chance to weaker teams... Yeah, we want gold for Slovakia again
Anyone can apply (including Koreans), as long as they are on a gaming team (not sure if the team has to meet some set level of sponsorship/notoriety) and they commit to go to the July LAN held in California. Incontrol stated that perhaps there will be a cap on Koreans at five max, but this isn't set in stone*. There is a cap on the number of players from each team, set at five. EG and Liquid, in other words, can have no more than five players in the event.
There will also be an open tournament that anyone can enter to determine who advances to one of the spots in the final sixteen. * -this is not set in stone so I removed it...
I think giving special rules to koreans is stupid If they want to participate, and they fulfilled all requests for NASL, they should be given a chance. If there will be only koreans in round of 16, it only means foreigners are not as good as them, and that is not koreans fault. If NASL does want an american player to win the tournament, they should make the tournament for americans only. They made it international, so everyone should have the same chance to win.
Heeyyyy don`t do that, it`s Canada`s only chance for a title in a competitive sport hahahahaha!!
You need 5-10 koreans in it for the simple fact that 5 days a week you can watch a foreigner vs a korean! What other tournament can boast that?! 0 is the answer! Can you say ratings bonanza?! Especially if you have nada and boxer in it?! Just imagine, Monday, Nada vs X, Tuesday, Boxer vs X, etc. It would get massive views!
On March 18 2011 23:59 Uriel_SVK wrote: Hey, you know what... there will be ice hockey world championship in Slovakia, but we decided that Canada, Russia, Sweden and Czech republic can not play. They are too good, they are always on first places and it would be nice to give a chance to weaker teams... Yeah, we want gold for Slovakia again
I don't know how much that helps your argument, considering Canada could field several teams with the chance to win the tournament, but would be limited to one team, exactly what it seems the NASL rules are restricting.
EPT
