On March 19 2011 03:35 avilo wrote: You know...there would be none of this controversy at all if NASL had done what any proper tournament organization had done in the first place - had qualifiers to allow people to get a place as one of the first 50.
Then there would have been no discussion at all of playing favorites, of koreans being limited, etc etc. The best would have gotten in and it would have been fair for everyone. It's obvious that isn't the case right now. And it's not a good way to start off an organization / league by inviting in-crowders and people u want in instead of having the best players playing, proving they are the best.
The only reason you would not have qualifers like that is if you were afraid that people you wanted in would not get in...well guess what? No one should be entitled. Look at TSL. Anyone could qualify for it, it didn't exclude anyone, and aside from some invites, people had to earn their spots in the tournament. Even if you weren't known, or didn't "know the right people," you could still get into TSL.
The 'qualifiers' for playing in the NASL are basically your performance in every other tournament out there, and there are many. Almost any pro player out there right now has had a ton of opportunities to show some results. The better the results you've posted thus far, the better your chances are of getting into NASL.
There have been quite a lot of invite only tournaments, and hardly any of those have caught flak for who they invited. The only difference is that this one is worth more money, and actually takes MORE consideration into their invites than pretty much any other invite tournament before it.
Poor English skills and latency issues are acceptable arguments against not inviting Koreans considering the format that the NASL has chosen, but excluding them because they are better is not.
If you tell a player "you can't play here, you're too good" then you're not a serious organization. If you're a player and don't want the koreans there because you're afraid you can't compete, then you're not a real competitive player, you should go play in silver where you know you'll win.
On March 19 2011 05:15 dsousa wrote: People who don't want Koreans, must be people who CANNOT be fans of them simply because of the racial/language/cultural differences.
Way to put words in other peoples mouths and make sweeping generalizations. That's very helpful to the debate.
On March 19 2011 05:15 dsousa wrote: If you love this game... you want to see it played at the highest level.
Thanks for telling us how to think. I knew I loved the game, but I really wasn't sure how to translate that into an opinion on this subject!
Do you really think racism or xenophobia is an issue here? Most of the people on this site have spent YEARS watching koreans play a video game that most people of their own race could care less about. If anyone here was an angry racist they probably would've abandoned StarCraft a long, long time ago...
I'll repeat what I said earlier, most of the people who support limiting Korean participation are doing so because they're concerned about ensuring the growth of a real American scene and not a GSL Lite.
Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
There's very little foreign infrastructure, and we've LONG known that this was a major problem for the foreign scene. Without a sponsor, a practice house, and dedicated teammates, it becomes much more difficult to compete with those that have access to such luxuries.
If Koreans are going to be able to stay in Korea, retain their access to sponsors and practice houses, etc., then it's very likely that they'll continue to dominate. And if all the NASL money gets funneled right back to Korean teams then it's just going to be that much tougher for American/foreign players to get access to the infrastructure they need to be competetive.
I think part of what really bothers people is that Koreans will sort of get the best of both worlds. They can stay in Korea, compete in the Korea, and retain access to their teams et all, and STILL get to compete in the NASL. Foreign players, on the other hand, have virtually no access to the GSL unless they make the committment to actually MOVE TO KOREA. If Korean players had to choose between the NASL and the GSL, or, say, move to the states to commit to the NASL, I don't think it would bother people nearly as much because then the practice houses and infrastructure that Koreans have would likely transfer to the west and actually maybe HELP burgeoning western talent.
A lot of people are saying things like, "well, we as players should just want the best games possible, and that means not limiting Korean participation." I think this is a bit short-sighted though. We finally have a chance to promote e-sports in the west, so if we want a strong e-sports scene that doesn't die and go the way of Brood War (virtually no real foreign scene, all we get really is watching Korean streams), then we need to focus on building up a strong scene in the west while we still have a chance.
What would really be great is if the NASL actually just did what the GSL does, i.e. all games have to be played live in booths, and the tournament doesn't take place over just a short period of time. If players can't just fly in for a weekend to compete then it'll help concentrate players in an actual location, which will promote the construction of team houses and real infrastructure.
On March 19 2011 07:23 Fighter wrote: Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
NASL have clearly said that they want the best players competing. There are a million online tournaments and smaller LANs out there that already serve the role of a "minor league". And nobody is going to pump $400k, the biggest prize pool in the west, into a minor league! What's the point? You're acting as if NASL is the only tournament in the west, when in fact there are multiple "minor league" tournaments every single day.
There are also intermediate tournaments in the form of MLG and such. And now we have the possibility for something new, something unique, something better...and people just want a clone of MLG/BDL/ZOTAC/go4sc2/GCPL/CraftCup/etc. I just don't understand it.
On March 19 2011 07:23 Fighter wrote: Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
NASL have clearly said that they want the best players competing. There are a million online tournaments and smaller LANs out there that already serve the role of a "minor league". And nobody is going to pump $400k, the biggest prize pool in the west, into a minor league! What's the point? You're acting as if NASL is the only tournament in the west, when in fact there are multiple "minor league" tournaments every single day.
There are also intermediate tournaments in the form of MLG and such. And now we have the possibility for something new, something unique, something better...and people just want a clone of MLG/BDL/ZOTAC/go4sc2/GCPL/CraftCup/etc. I just don't understand it.
Yeah. I'm actually surprise so many people don't want to see Koreans. Most NA/EU tournaments are streamed so I actually see significantly more NA/EU players than I do Korean players. Also, the Korean pros tend to be stronger. People really want to watch a bunch of mediocre players play each other?
On March 19 2011 05:15 dsousa wrote: People who don't want Koreans, must be people who CANNOT be fans of them simply because of the racial/language/cultural differences.
Way to put words in other peoples mouths and make sweeping generalizations. That's very helpful to the debate.
On March 19 2011 05:15 dsousa wrote: If you love this game... you want to see it played at the highest level.
Thanks for telling us how to think. I knew I loved the game, but I really wasn't sure how to translate that into an opinion on this subject!
Do you really think racism or xenophobia is an issue here? Most of the people on this site have spent YEARS watching koreans play a video game that most people of their own race could care less about. If anyone here was an angry racist they probably would've abandoned StarCraft a long, long time ago...
I'll repeat what I said earlier, most of the people who support limiting Korean participation are doing so because they're concerned about ensuring the growth of a real American scene and not a GSL Lite.
Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
There's very little foreign infrastructure, and we've LONG known that this was a major problem for the foreign scene. Without a sponsor, a practice house, and dedicated teammates, it becomes much more difficult to compete with those that have access to such luxuries.
If Koreans are going to be able to stay in Korea, retain their access to sponsors and practice houses, etc., then it's very likely that they'll continue to dominate. And if all the NASL money gets funneled right back to Korean teams then it's just going to be that much tougher for American/foreign players to get access to the infrastructure they need to be competetive.
I think part of what really bothers people is that Koreans will sort of get the best of both worlds. They can stay in Korea, compete in the Korea, and retain access to their teams et all, and STILL get to compete in the NASL. Foreign players, on the other hand, have virtually no access to the GSL unless they make the committment to actually MOVE TO KOREA. If Korean players had to choose between the NASL and the GSL, or, say, move to the states to commit to the NASL, I don't think it would bother people nearly as much because then the practice houses and infrastructure that Koreans have would likely transfer to the west and actually maybe HELP burgeoning western talent.
A lot of people are saying things like, "well, we as players should just want the best games possible, and that means not limiting Korean participation." I think this is a bit short-sighted though. We finally have a chance to promote e-sports in the west, so if we want a strong e-sports scene that doesn't die and go the way of Brood War (virtually no real foreign scene, all we get really is watching Korean streams), then we need to focus on building up a strong scene in the west while we still have a chance.
What would really be great is if the NASL actually just did what the GSL does, i.e. all games have to be played live in booths, and the tournament doesn't take place over just a short period of time. If players can't just fly in for a weekend to compete then it'll help concentrate players in an actual location, which will promote the construction of team houses and real infrastructure.
Well... I agree, perhaps I'm wrong about xenophobia, people can think all sorts of silly things for all sorts of silly reasons. I was just speculating... as I don't understand how creating a HUGE b league is good for anyone but b players.
By the way, in regards to your "small school" theory.
Larry Bird came from French Lick, Indiana..... Jerry Rice went to Mississippi Valley State both very small schools and rural area's.
Greater things have been done that an American beating a Korean at starcraft, and I want to see it happen!
I think the koreans would do less well than we'd expect. the NASL is like the GSL in that players will switch to HARDCORE practicing regimes. Right now, there's no money to be made in practicing 12 hours a day. But for the NASL, there will be. So american players will suddenly get a huge skill jump
Also, koreans will be out of their home playstyle (american playstyle is very different from korean) just as americans were in korea. It took Jinro a while to acclimate in korea, after all. And living in america to compete is going to be rougher than living at home. The problems that plague the foreigners who move to korea to play will become the korean's problems.
On March 19 2011 07:23 Fighter wrote: Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
NASL have clearly said that they want the best players competing. There are a million online tournaments and smaller LANs out there that already serve the role of a "minor league". And nobody is going to pump $400k, the biggest prize pool in the west, into a minor league! What's the point? You're acting as if NASL is the only tournament in the west, when in fact there are multiple "minor league" tournaments every single day.
There are also intermediate tournaments in the form of MLG and such. And now we have the possibility for something new, something unique, something better...and people just want a clone of MLG/BDL/ZOTAC/go4sc2/GCPL/CraftCup/etc. I just don't understand it.
Me neither. A global tournament featuring the best players from all over the world sounds much more appealing. Who doesnt agree with that?
On March 19 2011 08:09 Honeybadger wrote: I think the koreans would do less well than we'd expect. the NASL is like the GSL in that players will switch to HARDCORE practicing regimes. Right now, there's no money to be made in practicing 12 hours a day. But for the NASL, there will be. So american players will suddenly get a huge skill jump
Also, koreans will be out of their home playstyle (american playstyle is very different from korean) just as americans were in korea. It took Jinro a while to acclimate in korea, after all. And living in america to compete is going to be rougher than living at home. The problems that plague the foreigners who move to korea to play will become the korean's problems.
I dont think it will be as imbalanced as everyone says i think we will see some great games weather a korean takes the tournament or there are 2 koreans in the finals, we will see the best possible games by getting the best possible players from all over the world. The NASL will also attract a much larger fan base with diversity of players from all over the world. From business point of view ( the people who run the company and make decisions point of view) why wouldnt they want to have a huge international fan base by inviting the best players with the biggest fan bases from all over the world. Instead of just limiting it to north america , where sc2 isnt nearly as popular as in other countries. If they get 60% of their viewers from NA and another 40% from the rest of the world that is huge!
Wathever they do they should make it look like NASL , i dont mind a few guys 10-15 at most , being from other places , but there should be NA dominance on the picks.
And well , i do love seeing EU and Korean players specially , but you have to grow your own scene with what you have at your place...
I mean , i like watching my soccer team playing on spanish league because its in my country with lots of players from my country... I do like a little soccer , but i will not watch Premier league for instance if im not REALLY interested in soccer.
maybe im more interested in starcraft that i am in soccer , but when you make something to entertain , you have to cater to your audience , especially your potential audience from your country and not only the former "hardcore-fans" that watch all kind of high level play.
The Idea is that someone that doesnt really like starcraft can see it also in the end because of other kind of rivalries involved within their country (aka west coast vs east coast , here in spain we have barcelona vs madrid) , if not ,are we talking about what Esports is?
hope i explained it well in the end i will watch it wathever they do xD
On March 17 2011 09:53 Kazeyonoma wrote: basically what i'm hearing is. the koreans put forth the time, effort, and risk to make sc2 an e-sport, succeed, and now get to live out the dream that so many of us TL'ers think about. But those westerners who don't want koreans not only don't want to put for the time, but neither the effort, and especially not the risk, and thus want sc2 to be a shadow of the korean scene because they want to win some easy money now so they can do something else later. awesome.
you watch guys like nada, boxer, july, etc and you can see, they want to play sc2, for a living, they love the game, like they loved scbw, sure someday they know they'll have to retire, but that's not in the back of their heads when they're crushing through the tournament brackets, laying it all on the line trying to win, for themselves, for their fans, for the community.
Why do the koreans stomp inferior foreigners? because they love the game more than guys like ClouD or BluR or Pokebunny can even comprehend. Huk, IdrA, and Jinro know what it means to lay it all on the line, and be rewarded for their hard work and dedication. These other players don't want to earn their money, they want an easy road to 100k.
You think the pioneers of esports in korea didn't risk it all? Didn't you guys read any of the Final Edits about guys like BoxeR who did terribly in high school to pursue his dreams? Or of the 2v2 team who lived off of ramen (something the first generation of progamers ALL did) to pursue their dreams, just to have the glint of hope that someday, they'll be rewarded for doing what they love? Nope, in the world of western culture, they want to do as minimal as possible, to win as much as possible. That's fine, take that route, just don't get mad when the guy who works harder than you gets the promotion, drives the nice car, and wins the girl, while you sit and become his subordinate.
i could not say it more eloquently. i don't want this post to die.
That seems like a pretty bullshit reason. What the hell does "love the game" even mean? Do you think anyone loves the game more than someone like Artosis? You really think that is the reason for the skill gap?
they understand that in order to succeed in this game they need to practice as hard if not harder than their opponents, somehow that's not translating over to the western culture, but a lot of western players who are complaining about koreans entering the tournament somehow feel they deserve to win large sums of money without putting forth the same level of effort.
No, it really is a bullshit reason. Western progamers fully understand the need to practice. What brighter people than you have already mentioned, is that quality of practice also counts. Laddering 12 hours a day is not the fucking same as practicing in a team house for 12 hours a day. That is something not available to western players until very recently, except for those who went to korea.
And in case you haven't fucking noticed, dropping school and going to korea to play sc, is a much, much bigger sacrifice than dropping out of school and staying in korea. Why the fuck do you think TLO left korea? Its not because he couldn't handle the practice regime. Its because it fucking sucks to have to leave behind your real life friends and family in order to pursue your dream.
To the poster above: using soccer to support your case is fucking stupid, given FIFA's 6+5 rule.
To kazeyonoma You cant possibly say they love the game more than we do just because they have more opportunities than us.
I don't buy it, boxer, and first generation players had no more opportunities than you, they forged their way through to make esports what it is in korea by sacrificing themselves and risking it all because they wanted it to work. don't give me this bullshit that you don't have opportunities, what's stopping you from trying to do the same. The fact that you don't want to risk it, the fact that westerners want to go to college or work their jobs (that's fine, that's their perogative), but don't BLAME koreans for willing to take that chance, and lay it all and become potentially starved and homeless, just to make the sc scene grow. If you're not willing to lay it on the line for 100k, you don't deserve it.
I tried to create a possible 50 man starterfield WITHOUT Koreans, so NA/EU/rest/+legends I added a line after the best (i tried to sort it by skill somehow oO) 30 people - you see, how a possible field with/without ~20 koreans could look like.
no HuK no jinro, cause they obv wont play, but i added ppl like whitera, kas, sen, loner and others, who didnt do an application video so far - but could still possibly go to NASL.
Here the "list"
IdrA SjoW Kas WhiteRa BratOK ret Naniwa MorroW Tyler mOOnGlaDe Demuslim Dimaga Socke SeleCt TLO Kiwikaki ClouD Strelok qxc Loner MaNa Tarson HasuObs Sen GoOdy TTOne Drewbie CrunCheR Slush HayprO ---------- the 20 ppl below (or others from that 50 ppl, possibly even more) could be replaced by koreans KawaiiRice Sheth Axlav Strifecro PainUser Adelscott Machine Nightend Fenix dDoro DarKFoRcE Minigun LzGaMeR ToD CatZ lalush Incontrol dde Artosis Grubby
Just to make you think, if "only the best players" - which means all koreans that want to apply, only does good for the tournament.
im still convinced, like 10-15 koreans would be perfect
€: forgot stalife and inka i guess. any other noticable NA player?
On March 19 2011 05:15 dsousa wrote: People who don't want Koreans, must be people who CANNOT be fans of them simply because of the racial/language/cultural differences.
Way to put words in other peoples mouths and make sweeping generalizations. That's very helpful to the debate.
On March 19 2011 05:15 dsousa wrote: If you love this game... you want to see it played at the highest level.
Thanks for telling us how to think. I knew I loved the game, but I really wasn't sure how to translate that into an opinion on this subject!
Do you really think racism or xenophobia is an issue here? Most of the people on this site have spent YEARS watching koreans play a video game that most people of their own race could care less about. If anyone here was an angry racist they probably would've abandoned StarCraft a long, long time ago...
I'll repeat what I said earlier, most of the people who support limiting Korean participation are doing so because they're concerned about ensuring the growth of a real American scene and not a GSL Lite.
Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
There's very little foreign infrastructure, and we've LONG known that this was a major problem for the foreign scene. Without a sponsor, a practice house, and dedicated teammates, it becomes much more difficult to compete with those that have access to such luxuries.
If Koreans are going to be able to stay in Korea, retain their access to sponsors and practice houses, etc., then it's very likely that they'll continue to dominate. And if all the NASL money gets funneled right back to Korean teams then it's just going to be that much tougher for American/foreign players to get access to the infrastructure they need to be competetive.
I think part of what really bothers people is that Koreans will sort of get the best of both worlds. They can stay in Korea, compete in the Korea, and retain access to their teams et all, and STILL get to compete in the NASL. Foreign players, on the other hand, have virtually no access to the GSL unless they make the committment to actually MOVE TO KOREA. If Korean players had to choose between the NASL and the GSL, or, say, move to the states to commit to the NASL, I don't think it would bother people nearly as much because then the practice houses and infrastructure that Koreans have would likely transfer to the west and actually maybe HELP burgeoning western talent.
A lot of people are saying things like, "well, we as players should just want the best games possible, and that means not limiting Korean participation." I think this is a bit short-sighted though. We finally have a chance to promote e-sports in the west, so if we want a strong e-sports scene that doesn't die and go the way of Brood War (virtually no real foreign scene, all we get really is watching Korean streams), then we need to focus on building up a strong scene in the west while we still have a chance.
What would really be great is if the NASL actually just did what the GSL does, i.e. all games have to be played live in booths, and the tournament doesn't take place over just a short period of time. If players can't just fly in for a weekend to compete then it'll help concentrate players in an actual location, which will promote the construction of team houses and real infrastructure.
See, this post makes sense in every way except the high school sports analogy. Sure, make divisions for sports, it's important to have the competitive aspect in all skill levels of sports - the issue is that the NASL has just as much prize money as the GSL, maybe even more depending on how they distribute it.
I suggested the idea about live games about 20 pages back, and I think it's definitely the best one. Someone said that I'm excluding Europeans in addition to Koreans, and I say that I'm excluding everyone equally. If you want to compete for one hundred thousand dollars, you had better be prepared to do that full time, since that's more money than most people make in one year.
If you want to play, you have to be there. Simple solutions are most often the best.
On March 19 2011 07:23 Fighter wrote: Look at how schools in the states set up sports leagues. If you go to a small high school, you'll likely be in a lower division because organizers realize that with a smaller pool of students to draw from, your school will be less likely to be able to field a strong team. Similar logic goes into American baseball minor leagues. By promoting a minor league you can help ensure that talened players will have an avenue to work their way up.
There are a million online tournaments and smaller LANs out there that already serve the role of a "minor league". And nobody is going to pump $400k, the biggest prize pool in the west, into a minor league! What's the point? You're acting as if NASL is the only tournament in the west, when in fact there are multiple "minor league" tournaments every single day.
There are also intermediate tournaments in the form of MLG and such. And now we have the possibility for something new, something unique, something better...and people just want a clone of MLG/BDL/ZOTAC/go4sc2/GCPL/CraftCup/etc. I just don't understand it.
It's true, there's a lot of tournaments going on... certainly way more than there ever were for Brood War. But are they enough to create a fully fleshed out sport? I mean, it feels like we're GETTING there. There's teams that are willing to help support their players by sending them to other countries for tournaments, but none of those teams are really sponsored. Most players don't have practice houses. Like another poster mentioned, the infrastructure that Korean players have afford them a MUCH higher quality of practice.
Players can't make a living off of just hoping for good results. That's why Korean teams have sponsors. Sponsorships buffer the level of risk. What can the up and coming guys do? If only the players that are winning the tournaments can afford to live in practice houses and play 12 hours a day, how will the up and coming talent catch up? Banking on money from tournament wins is NOT the best way to grow a sport. You need sponsorships, you need practice houses, you need legitimacy.
On March 19 2011 06:45 hugman wrote: Poor English skills and latency issues are acceptable arguments against not inviting Koreans considering the format that the NASL has chosen, but excluding them because they are better is not.
If you tell a player "you can't play here, you're too good" then you're not a serious organization. If you're a player and don't want the koreans there because you're afraid you can't compete, then you're not a real competitive player, you should go play in silver where you know you'll win.
why should players play college basketball instead of just going straight from highschool-> nba then? different analogy but i think playing closer to your level can have many benefits.
the TSL 1-2 had no korean players and imo those series were more hype then msl/osl.
this is what it boils down too imo,
you want to cheer for people that aren't korean, soo
if you include koreans it will be more hype internationally, maybe koreans might care about it.
if you don't include them, it will be more hype from non-koreans.
imo you should include koreans for this one, but the gap between koreans and the outside WILL seperate. i guarantee you in 3-4 years the situation will become like broodwar. infrastructure drives excellence, we have no strong infrastructure here. so maybe for later ones exclude koreans when they become too good. i'm not too sure about how it operates latency/etc/etc so i'll let you decide about that. i like the invite the top ones idea.
On March 19 2011 10:58 chonkyfire wrote: There could be a really simple solution to this problem
Make the whole thing a LAN
Would not work.
US is a large country and the travel is far too much for weekly games, you wouldnt get any players for europe, korea and not many from canada or us either.
For the selected format, they are running the tournament in the most sensible fashion.
EPT
in the end i will watch it wathever they do xD
IdrA
SjoW
WhiteRa
