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Colossi are Anti-Hype: Here's Why - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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PatouPower
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1119 Posts
March 15 2011 01:02 GMT
#81
Your suggestion is wrong, because it would make colossi balls even stronge. Being about to do 2x the damage in the same amount of time, even if the second shot comes 2x later, is a lot more stronger. Think about it: The entire zerg army would just get blown up before the roaches, or even worst, hydras can even do some damage. After that, it doesn't matter if their second shots come later, since the ground army will be decimated by the gateway units.

Personally, I don't think it's gonna change anytime soon. HT just began to be used more and more, and blizzard decided to nerf them. It's still very strong, but people will just go "meh" and go back with the colossi. Tho, the HTs made the game really high in hype because it requires skill in storm positionning, spreading the HTs, avoiding the EMPs, etc. I would still like to see them more in PvZ in the form of HTs + immortals, but I don't think people are gonna quit a winning formula.
red_hq
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada450 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 01:04:37
March 15 2011 01:02 GMT
#82
You guys I think I have came across a solution to this:
1) make the collo move slower (as stated in OP)...

Before the collusus does it's criss crossing lazor beams it first lights up the effected area for .5 or .75 seconds with a bright red

Once this is started it cannot be stopped and the collusus cannot move, cool down is also increased

Then after have the light up do their thing lighting up the area with their already standard damage but increase the laser brightness and intensity

To comopensate for the increased attack cool down wherever the collosus hits the ground with the lasers the ground LIGHTS ON FIRE, dealing any unit that walks over it 2-6 damage a second over 3-10 seconds. (whatever would be balanced). This fire damage would deal damage to friendlies.

You can make the collusus now attack nothing, just to light the ground on fire.


Wouldn't this be awesome?

Get some 'good' Dota 2: twitch.tv/redhq
anatem
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania1369 Posts
March 15 2011 01:03 GMT
#83
sorry for the ot, but i have to note that putting daigo's godly comeback in a sc2 discussion is borderline blasphemous
'Tis with our Judgements as our Watches, none / Go just alike, yet each believes his own.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
March 15 2011 01:03 GMT
#84
Are Colossi powerful? I think so. Are they more boring than the Reaver+Shuttle? I also think so.

IMO, if I was a fictional Protoss commander, I would prefer to use Colossi over the Reaver+Shuttle since they are just more efficient and powerful at front line combat compared to the Reaver. Colossi have the power of the Reaver with the mobility of a Shuttle, and as a fictional Protoss commander I would be hard pressed not to include them in my fictional Protoss arsenal.

However, I do agree with the OP that Colossi, despite being powerful, are perhaps too efficient at their job and just simply do not create much tension and hype in the game. They are certainly a better front-line combat unit compared to the Reaver+Shuttle, though at the huge cost of excitement, or lack thereof.

Nevertheless, though we'll most likely not see many changes with the Colossi stats, I'm sure Blizzard will address the lack of "hype" options in SC2 later in their future expansions. I'm sure it won't be difficult to include a powerful, hard-to-use unit in the Protoss arsenal that covers the hype role that the Reaver+Shuttle had. The Colossi may be a core unit, but Blizzard can still add stuff around it without stepping on its role too much.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Teejing
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany1360 Posts
March 15 2011 01:03 GMT
#85
Collossus sure is a boring unit, especailly compared to the micro intensive reaver
Spawkuring
Profile Joined July 2008
United States755 Posts
March 15 2011 01:03 GMT
#86
I've been complaining about this since beta, so it's nice to see others feel the same way.

Probably the biggest issue for SC2's long-term appeal is the fact that the most important units in SC2 are also the most boring. Colossi have very little micro-potential (except moving 1-2 back to avoid harrassment, yippee...), there's almost nothing you can do with them except 1a, yet they're so powerful you basically have to make them in every single P game. A major advantage BW had was that the most important units also were very exciting to watch. Zerg games were often decided by intelligent defiler/lurker/scourge use, and those units are still to this day seen as the most entertaining units in the game. Terrans had vultures, siege tanks, and science vessels the provide excitement. Protoss had reavers and BW storms. SC2 has a couple of exciting units like the baneling, but definitely nowhere near the excitement of most BW units.

Now I'm not saying that Blizzard should just replace everything with BW units, but they should definitely add or rework units so that they have the excitement that will keep the game fun to watch.
No.Doubt
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada202 Posts
March 15 2011 01:04 GMT
#87
I don't see why units need to be changed to add more excitement, you single out the collossus and make it sound like its the only unit that isnt very excited because its really strong. When i look at the game and think of exciting units in themselves, off the top of my head i think of;
1.Banelings
2.Dark templars
3.Ravens
This list is very small considering all the units in the game and are usually very exciting units in themselves but i dont think the units are the problem themselves.
If you look at say Marinekingprime you might say the marine is exciting and awesome to watch but, its just the micro of the player themselves and not the unit.
In the hands of creative and talented players I think any unit can be exciting to watch from baneling traps to DT rushes even possibly collossus.
Just give it some time and people will think of clever ways of using the collossus!
gamefan15
Profile Joined March 2011
50 Posts
March 15 2011 01:05 GMT
#88
I agree with OP

Plus for me the Collossus always was one of the, if not the ugliest unit in the game that lacks coolness compared to other Protoss units. For the Zerg a giant scary beast(Ultralisk) and for the Terran a giant Mech, Transformers kind of thing(Thor) and for the Protoss a giant egghead with spiderlegs?

I would be happy if they would replace it with the reaver or design a new unit even if this wouldnt fill the giant ground unit category for Protoss anymore. But I guess it wont happen anyway.
kaisr
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada715 Posts
March 15 2011 01:05 GMT
#89
On March 15 2011 09:41 Wr3k wrote:
I play toss and I hate the colossi as well. It's so lame. I hardly use it anymore (HT/immortal) is more fun.

I miss reavers so much.


lol reavers caused me equal rage and happiness in bw. The non-expoding scarabs, the scarabs that take retarded paths to the target, the explosions that do no damage -.- sigh.
PhoenixToruk
Profile Joined December 2010
United States69 Posts
March 15 2011 01:06 GMT
#90
What if instead of trying to make a unit "hype" up a game more, we expand our play and don't just make a 1a ball of death? I honestly think the only reason people see colossi as a boring unit is because they are playing the game in a very basic form and not thinking outside the box.
Or someone else will.
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
March 15 2011 01:07 GMT
#91
On March 15 2011 09:56 Blyadischa wrote:
I'm sorry for sounding like this, but the protoss race is pretty "anti-hype" and makes any matchup with it incredibly boring to watch.

Colossi mass up into a ball, then attack.
Storms used to require skill to clone and blanket storm, now it's just spam t and win the game, or if you get emp'd just warp more templar in and spam t. I especially hate it when casters say "nice storms", because they weren't nice. It took the player 2 index fingers to destroy an army.

Forcefields, same thing. A guy with larger army approaching you? forcefield it away or cut it in half to decimate it with a much smaller army.

Spells are so abusive in SC2, they do way too much and are way too easily used. Protoss just happens to have the most of them.


Oh man, don't even get me started on ForceField. Hey lets add a spell that removes micro ability and leads to mass rape. Same goes with Fungal growth. Lets make a freeze spell thats cool.

The only spell that really gets me going on the excite factor is HSM. And thats gone because of its crap range and Slow Raven Speed that makes every spell suicidal. I under stand the 125 requirement, but at least make an upgrade that allows spell casters save up to 250 energy instead of the OP start with 25 more energy you seem to not be able to balance.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
March 15 2011 01:11 GMT
#92
As a Z player, I totally agree ^^
R0YAL
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1768 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 01:12:45
March 15 2011 01:11 GMT
#93
On March 15 2011 09:41 OverZero wrote:
I agree with the idea that colossus make matchups boring in SC2. But my issue with a lot of the posts in this thread are the "well brood war had this and it was awesome". THIS ISN'T BROOD WAR. Browder and the whole design team has stated multiple times that they aren't trying to make just a remake of Brood War, they're trying to make a game based off Brood War. I'm tired of hearing all the crap about how cool stuff was in Brood War. YES. It was cool, but Starcraft 2 is a different game. I'm not trying to hate on Brood War, but some people need to move on and accept that you aren't going to see Reavers, Lurkers, and Spider Mines in Starcraft 2.

Sorry for the rant. I'm in no way trying to say that SC2 is better than BW, in fact I think BW games for the most part are more entertaining than a lot of the SC2 games we have seen.

On topic: The main reason we all find colossus play boring is because robo-builds are the safest builds protoss can do (for the most part). And because that is the tech path people tend to choose at first I think they tend to get stuck in it, where they are afraid to branch away due to how strong the colossus is. I'm not sure how we (or blizzard) could fix this, maybe if carriers could be made more viable somehow (again not sure how to do this). Protoss players would feel more inclined to move away from such colossus heavy play.

This isnt Brood War is getting old... Its the concept of the units from bw that people are comparing to. We all know its not bw and we dont want it to be either. We may want it to be more like bw in some aspects but thats it. There are concepts from bw that are far superior to its successor sc2 and thats why people bring bw up, conceptual comparison.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
March 15 2011 01:12 GMT
#94
Blizzard has nurfed the high damage slow attacks of multiple units. The 2 that come to mind are the Thor and the colossus. They intentionally made them do the same DPS, just attack faster with less damage. Because when microed, they were too strong.

I hate to think that would happen to SC1 if the current blizzard team was tasked with balancing it. :-(
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
OverZero
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States271 Posts
March 15 2011 01:12 GMT
#95
I think one of the biggest problems right now is how units don't really "work together". I hate to reference BW, but defiler/lurker/scourge those are units that worked great together. Or shuttle/reaver. In SC2 I just don't see that. Sure forcefields are cool, but theres no awesome abilities that you can use in conjuction with other units. Maybe I'm wrong and we just haven't explored all the possibilities.
PLAGUUUUUUU <My Stream: twitch.tv/paullolol > Check it out some time!!!
ChaosWielder
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States166 Posts
March 15 2011 01:15 GMT
#96
Colossi are boring units. They don't need to be Reavers 2.0, but they should be more interesting than a 1a unit. They were *designed* to be 1a units, sadly--they spot over cliffs, so no fliers are needed, and they can cliff walk, so they work well in no matter which control group you place them in. They encourage sloppy and, more importantly, uninteresting play.

Sadly, it would require a major reworking of the whole game, I think, if such a fundamental unit was altered meaningfully(the KA removal all but guarantees colossus builds as the staple Protoss style, at least for the time being). Chalk this up to another, 'wait until heart of the swarm' type of suggestions. The OP is right, but I don't think much will be done about it.
Louuster
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2869 Posts
March 15 2011 01:16 GMT
#97
I kind of agree that the huge damage potential does create a lot of excitement, godly micro here against mines



Kim Taek Yong fighting~
S.O.L.I.D.
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States792 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 01:20:46
March 15 2011 01:19 GMT
#98
My first reaction to this thread is why does it even matter? I'm not trying to troll but to be honest whether or not a unit is exciting doesn't really have much to do with anything. I'm struggling to see what the point of the thread it. It's like me making a thread saying phoenixes take good micro to use effectively. Yeah? So what? Blizzard doesn't change units because they aren't exciting enough. I'd rather have them focusing on stuff that really affects the game, such as balance.

Also, if anyone has ever seen a colossus drop, those definitely take dexterity.
.Aar
Profile Joined September 2010
2177 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-15 01:22:09
March 15 2011 01:19 GMT
#99
The cliff-walking aspect of Colossi creates no hype. For a unit that does create hype using cliff-walking, see the Reaper.

Colossi are just boring, plain and simple. I see them like workers. You need them, but you don't go OHHHH SHITTT watching Drones mine minerals. I mean, sure, maybe your Drone is mining the last 5 minerals needed to make an Extractor in a base race right before your last building is about to die to the opponent's SCVs, but.. how often does that kind of thing happen?

On March 15 2011 09:44 Mentalizor wrote:
Where's the hype in Terran then - honestly? I can think of nukes... which is used sooooo rarely it's hype just because of the rareness (<-- dunno if that's a real word) - and MAYBE blueflame drop/cloaked banshee.


Tanks, Hellions and Marines with their crazy burst damage --> hype.
Thors/BattleCruisers cost a lot and look badass --> hype.
Banshees easily have the potential to end the game if not properly countered --> hype.
Ghosts are hype incarnate, with the stealth/risk/planning involved in Nuking, the potential to deal huge damage or nullify other strategies with EMP/Snipe.
Marauders are probably the most boring Terran unit, but they shoot grenades that slow, so --> hype
Medivacs carry precious cargo --> hype
Reapers are cliffwalking Banshees without cloak as far as worker harass is concerned --> hype
Vikings are like highly mobile ATA Marauders w/o slow, so --> hype


Zealots are beefy yet light standard melee units -> no hype, at least until Charge, but even then not really
Sentries have FF and GS. GS is all number-play, FF is just expected and there really isn't too much you do with them besides the obvious --> no hype
Dark Templar are compared to Banshees, but since they're so less mobile, they're going to just die in a scan in PvT - all that happens is that mining is interrupted for a few seconds, so it's just numbers --> little hype
High Templar can shut down spellcasters and storm --> HYPE
Immortals can do pretty decent damage to Armored pretty fast and counter Tanks, which are a hype unit, so.. --> some hype
Motherships are fucking motherships --> HYPE
Pheonix can lift shit, fly fast, are made out of balsa wood --> hype
Void Rays can mess shit up if left alone to charge --> hype
Warp Prisms, see Medivac, plus Warp In --> hype
Carriers are rare and are pretty when they explode, but interceptors are boring as hell --> no real hype
Archons aren't Massive, get slowed, do miniscule splash damage --> no hype
Colossi are important, expensive, and big, boring damage --> some hype, but only if they're in danger

Just my two cents.
now run into the setting sun, and suffer, but don't mess up your hair.
bittman
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia8759 Posts
March 15 2011 01:20 GMT
#100
I think the Collosus would be better balanced if they were harder to get. By which, I mean that perhaps their build time is increased. With the Chrono Boost ability of the protoss, the Collosus build time does not appear too daunting, so it's easy to reach that critical mass quickly.

Perhaps if they're build time was closer to a Carrier's build time (i.e. 120 seconds), then they would be harder to get out en masse, and force more variety in order to get a max army.
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