|
I find roaches just as boring. The are literally an 'attack move' unit. How many ZvP do you watch where all the zerg builds is roaches and attack moves into the Protoss army?
Zerg in SC1 required good micro because of the lurker, you need to time your lurkers perfect with your zerglings. This was very hard to do, because if your lurkers are too late then all your lings die before lurkers are burrowed. If the lurkers are too early they can be easily picked off.
I'm not saying we need the lurker back (would be great though), but zerg needs a fun skillful unit. Currently zerg is pretty much attack move, which is easy and boring to watch.
btw, agree with the OP about the collosus.
|
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently.
|
On March 18 2011 07:22 Highways wrote:
I'm not saying we need the lurker back (would be great though), but zerg needs a fun skillful unit. Currently zerg is pretty much attack move, which is easy and boring to watch..
For a start, I wouldn't pin the blame on Zerg for this any more than Protoss or Terran, all of which have a lot of a-move units.
I do think that Burrow, OL drops and OL speed should be easier to get for Zerg (perhaps on Hatch tech?), as this would promote a lot of ways for micro to be used, with things like early Baneling burrows and drops and scouting etc being available.
On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently.
I agree almost entirely with this. Personally, I think that standard Colossus damage should be reduced dramatically, but damage vs light should be INSANE. Like, far into the 20s at least. I'm thinking 24-25, myself. Perhaps this falls into the 'hard counter' syndrome of SC2, but it would promote drops and stuff.
|
On March 15 2011 16:21 PITN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 16:08 Honeybadger wrote:On March 15 2011 16:03 SwiftSpear wrote:
I've seen colossus drops kill whole probe lines in a swipe. They do have that reaver pwn capability. no one uses them that way though. I think part of it is that the balsam wood drop ship is so slow and weak that people would rather just walk their colossus around the map then ever actually put them in a drop ship. This is another problem. The dropship was robust. The warp prism is a paper tiger. why put a colossus in something that a single stimmed marine can kill in seconds? I want real dropships back. The warp prism has the same effective hps as a shuttle. Only difference is that instead of 60 shields the warp prism has 40. The rest is hps adding up to 140.. And this 140 is only 10 less than a medivac. I wish people would stop fucking crying about how 'weak' warp prisms are. protip: keep transport units away from things which can shoot them.
How about we tell the whole truth?
Prisms have 0 (!!!) armor, Medivacs have 1, over their entire 150 hp. Movement speed is same for both, but Medivacs have much higher acceleration and turn speed. The 1 armor reduces dps considerably, the higher the firing rate, but lower the Dmg per shot. Ergo, Medivecs are much more durable against marine and hydra fire. And yes, speed 4 prisms can be researched, but its sooooo far down the tech path, and in almost all circumstances a player would want to research range for Colossi first.
# of marine shots needed to kill a Medivac = 30
# .................................. to kill a Prism = 23
|
On March 18 2011 07:54 IVN wrote:
Prisms have 0 (!!!) armor, Medivacs have 1, over their entire 150 hp. Movement speed is same for both, but Medivacs have much higher acceleration and turn speed. The 1 armor reduces dps considerably, the higher the firing rate, but lower the Dmg per shot. Ergo, Medivecs are much more durable against marine and hydra fire. And yes, speed 4 prisms can be researched, but its sooooo far down the tech path, and in almost all circumstances a player would want to research range for Colossi first.
# of marine shots needed to kill a Medivac = 30
# .................................. to kill a Prism = 23
TBH, I wouldn't mind giving shuttles speed naturally if they did something about the horribleness of the colossi
|
On March 18 2011 06:17 SeaSwift wrote:
Because at pro level, to play with MMM all game long and be successful (vs P, anyway) you have to have absurd multi-tasking abilities, dropping into Protoss base continually and keeping him on his toes long enough that he won't have enough Colossi/HTs to beat you. Sure, early-mid game and in lower leagues, MM is just a-click and can be pretty dull, to be successful past the 10 minute mark you have to do use the Medivacs' advantages extensively, so although MM are dull, Medivacs aren't
Good multitasking sure, but that goes with every race. Dropping in SC2 is easy and extremely accessible. You're already going to get Medievacs to heal your army so it takes little forward thinking or strategical ability to think to yourself 'Hmm, I think I'll do a drop'. You just load up troops from your ball, shift click and your off.
Defending against that probably requires the same if not more APM as the guy doing it. Especially given the strength of Terran T1 compared to Gateway units (and the need for them to stay together).
|
On March 17 2011 12:25 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 09:30 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
I as I said before, I think people are extrapolating the current state of the game with regards to strategy and tactics and placing the blame solely on a single unit. I agree minor tweaking needs to be done to SC2, but more then that I think the pros and metagame needs more time to be fully fleshed out. Tactics and Strategy are still be redone on a monthly basis. Its entirely possible that the future pros could see colossus in ways differently then we can appreciate now because the state of the game would allow it.
Sounds crazy now, but what about using a colossus with maybe a Mothership or something to engage in quick late game economy harass. Use the Colossus's speed and cliff walking to attacking mineral lines and back away once a defense shows up, then cliff walk to a new base rinse wash and repeat. If they have air units to defend, throw down a mass recall. The high risk / high reward aspect of it would definitely be "hype" IMO.
Its needs time in a stable environment. How to you expect any kind of metagame to develop when you rush the "patching" to fix everything. The problem with this line of thinking is, the longer you leave it, the harder it will be to change. That and the ideas people have come up with to hype current SC2 units are pretty bad imo. It didn't require great thinking to make BW units interesting, the only person who really did that was boxer and boxer isn't interesting at all in comparison to his style in BW. That type of thinking is considered gimmicky in both games.
It took years to develop what is considered interesting applications of BW units. Expectations climbed in parallel with skill since there was no precedent by which to measure "proper" interest. With the success of competitive Brood War and the basic similarities between SC1 and SC2, expectations for competitive play out weigh the current realities of what players can do, or even need to do in order to secure a win.
Observe the higher level games between SC2 pros. We are beginning to see a necessity for players to innovate and adapt in new ways or stack multiple strategies normally used individually in order to secure a win. I think this is what leads to more interesting gameplay overall.
I also disagree with the idea that the "longer you leave it, the harder it will be to change." Unless I am misunderstanding you, I think a stable platform from which the meta-game can evolve is crucial to developing an RTS. Having a base level of game sense that all pros must develop instead of playing on an ever changing landscape via patches would lead to players having to develop unique methods of playing. For example, if a pro is aware of all the timings for unit output/upgrades/damage dealing potential/etc. that goes into a protoss deathball, they could incorporate effective timings to take them apart piece by piece. Now if the Protoss is aware of the timings associated with the enemies timings designed to counter your expected timings (@_@) then they could adapt and use what they do have in unique ways and alter the timings associated with the traditional deathball, or maybe even transition out of the deathball mentality and use a strategy designed to hardcounter the anti-deathball strategy of their opponent.
|
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more.
|
On March 18 2011 07:32 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 07:22 Highways wrote:
I'm not saying we need the lurker back (would be great though), but zerg needs a fun skillful unit. Currently zerg is pretty much attack move, which is easy and boring to watch.. For a start, I wouldn't pin the blame on Zerg for this any more than Protoss or Terran, all of which have a lot of a-move units. I do think that Burrow, OL drops and OL speed should be easier to get for Zerg (perhaps on Hatch tech?), as this would promote a lot of ways for micro to be used, with things like early Baneling burrows and drops and scouting etc being available. Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. I agree almost entirely with this. Personally, I think that standard Colossus damage should be reduced dramatically, but damage vs light should be INSANE. Like, far into the 20s at least. I'm thinking 24-25, myself. Perhaps this falls into the 'hard counter' syndrome of SC2, but it would promote drops and stuff.
colossus are already used vs mostly light units though,(marines/hydralisks) the only thing i think would be effected is PvP, which is mostly stalker/colossus?
On March 18 2011 05:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
It's really obnoxious to see those "use Neural Parasite to deal with Tanks, Colossus, and other powerful units" when those units make it basically impossible to get off NP.
NP actually used to be the counter to colossus in beta, back before the nerfs
|
On March 17 2011 14:48 hidiliho wrote:
I agree Collosi are boring to watch. After the initial "zomg it's walking up the cliff" reaction, it has not provided any excitement. Too easy to get and too easy to mass and A-move with gateway units.
Compared to other siege units it is by far the dullest to watch.
In my mind tanks are the dullest unit to watch.
But not the ones from BW, that could be zealot bombed, or that dealt insane friendly fire damage, no. The superior tank AI from SC2 makes SC2 tanks soooooooooooooooooo dull.
|
On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently.
i really love this idea. would add more diversity and tech switching in PvT probably. or at least more incentive to do so.
|
On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more.
Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech...
|
On March 18 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more. Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech...
If terran players counter collosi with mech, Immortals with counter the mech.
|
On March 18 2011 09:33 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more. Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech... If terran players counter collosi with mech, Immortals with counter the mech.
Damn, you should have told that to MC when he was playing against Jinro.
|
Then don't go pure mech. There's no rule saying you can't make marines along with your mech.
|
On March 18 2011 09:45 Ghola wrote:
Then don't go pure mech. There's no rule saying you can't make marines along with your mech.
Unless you want to be awesome.
|
On March 18 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more. Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech...
After playing toss since beta and recently started to play terran I seriously ask myself if that's the kind of game I actually want. Because the game mechanics are so different to BW, I must say I'm very disappointed with how mech plays. Both the colossus and the thor are so miserably big and slow that they clump up the battlefield like crazy, making it almost impossible to get some decent micro done on the other units around them. And microing a colossus or a thor really shows disappointing unit design. Let's not even talk about the immortal...
In all honesty I would rather play both races with these two units gone, they both add nothing funky to the game and are a hindrance to cool battles and future balance.
I would rather like to have more of a needed synergy with MMM & Tanks and gateway units being more robust. I don't know, in comparison with BW TvP this is all a bit disappointing to me. I mean when I have colossus and templars out with the income to switch into whatever I need after the big battle, then I feel practically invincible.
|
On March 18 2011 09:56 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more. Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech... After playing toss since beta and recently started to play terran I seriously ask myself if that's the kind of game I actually want. Because the game mechanics are so different to BW, I must say I'm very disappointed with how mech plays. Both the colossus and the thor are so miserably big and slow that they clump up the battlefield like crazy, making it almost impossible to get some decent micro done on the other units around them. And microing a colossus or a thor really shows disappointing unit design. Let's not even talk about the immortal... In all honesty I would rather play both races with these two units gone, they both add nothing funky to the game and are a hindrance to cool battles and future balance. I would rather like to have more of a needed synergy with MMM & Tanks and gateway units being more robust. I don't know, in comparison with BW TvP this is all a bit disappointing to me. I mean when I have colossus and templars out with the income to switch into whatever I need after the big battle, then I feel practically invincible.
I too am sick of Colossi, Marauders and Roaches. However, Im also sick of the T/Z players who give no fuck about the balance, but just want to see the Colossus gone, so they can win more easily. Fact is, gate units are really bad in SC2. They cost more than Roaches/Hydras or MM, but get rolled over by those units, with their respective upgrades (speed for Roaches, stim, CS etc). W/o a "superunit" to dish out massive splash damage, gateway units just roll over and die.
So the question is, do people want the Colossus or massively buffed gateway units, which will own them just as hard?
As a toss user, I would choose the latter.
|
On March 18 2011 09:33 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more. Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech... If terran players counter collosi with mech, Immortals with counter the mech.
If only Terran had a means to instantly remove the Hardened shields of Immortals prior to an engagement, oh well.
On a more serious note, SC2 is still very young and alot of people are still looking at the game 1 dimensionally and calling it dull "I can't go mech because toss can make Immortals". What if, after going Heavy MMM you start your transition into late game mech forcing Immortals out of the toss to counter, if he went the heavy colossus route it's unlikely he has his Templar tech so maybe bringing in some ghosts to deal with the inevatible counter can prove really strong.
"But Phoobie, do you have ANY idea how much gas I need to fund tanks, thors, ghosts AND upgrades!?!"
you're transitioning into late game having had a very mobile army (MMM) vs a toss who is opting for an immobile army so that means you can take an extra expo, also MMM is VERY cheap on gas unless your pumping alot of medivacs so you can maybe cut a medivac or 2 to stockpile more gas for the transition.
Now, I'm a Zergy and not up to date to how PvT is to be played, the point is:
The game is young with lots of room to expiriment, don't say "I can't go mech because he'll just make Immortals" rather, try saying "Hmm, if i'm going mech, then the toss will then make Immortals in response to my mech, because i'm the one dictating the direction of the game at this moment how can I follow that up to stay ahead? marines? EMP? Air?"
|
On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently.
they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
