EPTOn March 18 2011 14:27 R0YAL wrote:
If you mass bio vs reaver then you deserve to die. But i guess we can agree to disagree.
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2011 14:21 Aequos wrote:
In an ideal world, yes, you would engage at the center of the map. However, Protoss has an aversion to being out in the open being surrounded. Protoss was even given a spell to help them control the battlefield - Forcefield. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to adapt my play to avoiding large open spaces where I can be instantly destroyed when that is essentially what I already do, and most Protoss already do.
Adding more marines/marauders won't really help when the Protoss has the hard counter to it that can kill it efficiently. Either you'll be able to snipe it instantly (and win) or you won't (and it will kill your MMM ball with stupid-strong efficiency). Imagine an unkillable faster-than-stim baneling thats guarenteed to hit your army, and deals enough damage to 1-shot a marine - thats what a Reaver would be shooting at you.
On March 18 2011 13:57 R0YAL wrote:
If your not horrible then you will know to engage the army in the middle of the map. Picking off the warp prism would be the #1 priority. Once thats done then the push cannot continue. Not true for the colossus. Its stupid mobile for how strong it is. Also you know a reaver is about the size of a siege tank right? The comparison of a ghost to infestor is no where near the comparison of a reaver to colossus. Not to mention the terrans ground army would be significantly bigger with the lack of the huge investment in vikings.
On March 18 2011 13:36 Aequos wrote:
If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces.
The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either:
1) Outrange it with a siege tank or
2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit.
With a Colossus, you can use:
3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit.
On March 18 2011 13:26 R0YAL wrote:
You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims.
On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:
For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it.
On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:
Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus.
On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:
There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities.
On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to.
On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:
[quote]
Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else.
[quote]
Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else.
Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to.
There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities.
Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus.
For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it.
You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims.
If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces.
The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either:
1) Outrange it with a siege tank or
2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit.
With a Colossus, you can use:
3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit.
If your not horrible then you will know to engage the army in the middle of the map. Picking off the warp prism would be the #1 priority. Once thats done then the push cannot continue. Not true for the colossus. Its stupid mobile for how strong it is. Also you know a reaver is about the size of a siege tank right? The comparison of a ghost to infestor is no where near the comparison of a reaver to colossus. Not to mention the terrans ground army would be significantly bigger with the lack of the huge investment in vikings.
In an ideal world, yes, you would engage at the center of the map. However, Protoss has an aversion to being out in the open being surrounded. Protoss was even given a spell to help them control the battlefield - Forcefield. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to adapt my play to avoiding large open spaces where I can be instantly destroyed when that is essentially what I already do, and most Protoss already do.
Adding more marines/marauders won't really help when the Protoss has the hard counter to it that can kill it efficiently. Either you'll be able to snipe it instantly (and win) or you won't (and it will kill your MMM ball with stupid-strong efficiency). Imagine an unkillable faster-than-stim baneling thats guarenteed to hit your army, and deals enough damage to 1-shot a marine - thats what a Reaver would be shooting at you.
If you mass bio vs reaver then you deserve to die. But i guess we can agree to disagree.
Fair enough, I bear no animosity towards you. I think the Reaver would be more fun, but would probably be a bit less of a solution than the majority of posters seem to think.
Either way, it couldn't be much worse in terms of entertainment value than the colossus.
