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On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba.
Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else.
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On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else.
This would make the marauder unbeatable.
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On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else.
Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to.
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On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to.
There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities.
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On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities.
Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus.
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On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus.
For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it.
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Uhm, great. But aren't Thors and Siege Tanks the same ?
Slow, "putting the foot down"units with high fire power, preferably couples with range.
Zerg really lacks those units. Even though you might argue that those units are not zergish, but I disagree when it comes to zerg late game. BW zerg had plenty of muscle with ultras and dark swarm.
I'd give Ultra's charge ability, that'll make'em more dangerous....though probably...still useless vs protoss.....
And, though Broodlords are excellent,you have to hatch a mostly useless unit in an army that is a bit on the small size anyways. It's a useless tech tier you have to go through before getting to the good stuff. Make them evolve from Mutas so Zerg players have a unit that they can put to good use with a little creativity and opportunism. Then they have the added danger to go BL later on. But with the two tech/build stages between Muta and BL (Hive ->greater spire) and the big gas usage, the opponent still has time to react.
Oh and give Zerg some swarm type abilities. Something that'll temporarily boost their armor in late game.
No idea if that'll be imba. but Zerg lategame just feels very weak.
And I say no thanks to reavers. The excitement about reavers was largely because half of those lethal balls of death would hit absolutely nothing. Talk about a coin toss.
What am I doing?.....I'm posting Zerg imba stuff in a Colossus thread........and at the end of a 22 age thread....and I play Protoss in SC2...
Anyways what I want to say is....don't change my Colossus! It makes me sad.
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On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it.
Ah so now I see why everybody thinks the only thing Terran can do is MMM. See I haven't made marauders ever in my life (because they are lame a-move units) except for maybe 3 games.
TvP may pan out more like TvZ, where territory is defined by tanks and MMM would move within range of them with a slow push.
You use tanks to kill reavers, even banshees would suffice, or splitting your MMM. Or even just sniping the shuttle and using a few marauders to stim snipe the reaver.
On March 18 2011 13:22 Eeevil wrote:And I say no thanks to reavers. The excitement about reavers was largely because half of those lethal balls of death would hit absolutely nothing. Talk about a coin toss.
You obviously haven't seen Snow use reavers.
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On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it.
You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air, and even then you wouldnt need hardly any vikings to take out a warp prism.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims.
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On March 18 2011 09:56 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:28 IVN wrote:On March 18 2011 08:32 majestouch wrote:
disclaimer: i read half the op and barely any posts
warp prisms w/ spd upg = 3.3ish~ spd the only thing that is annoying about warp prisms is their build time (60sec~ish), however, they only cost minerals and have lightning fast speed. lets assume you're a 2-3base turtling/macro toss, and you have air control or you're opponent doesn't have AA, then 2-3warp prism colli drops become extremely effective; the main problem is that protoss players as a whole aren't creative (yes there are exceptions like kiwikaki who is just a boss). back to colli drops, pulling workers is actually bad, they clump up and say "hey colli come rape me".
tldr; ppl need to experiment more. Yes of course. I'm still waiting for terrans to stop making MMM all game long and bitch about Colossi, and start countering them with mech... After playing toss since beta and recently started to play terran I seriously ask myself if that's the kind of game I actually want. Because the game mechanics are so different to BW, I must say I'm very disappointed with how mech plays. Both the colossus and the thor are so miserably big and slow that they clump up the battlefield like crazy, making it almost impossible to get some decent micro done on the other units around them. And microing a colossus or a thor really shows disappointing unit design. Let's not even talk about the immortal... In all honesty I would rather play both races with these two units gone, they both add nothing funky to the game and are a hindrance to cool battles and future balance. I would rather like to have more of a needed synergy with MMM & Tanks and gateway units being more robust. I don't know, in comparison with BW TvP this is all a bit disappointing to me. I mean when I have colossus and templars out with the income to switch into whatever I need after the big battle, then I feel practically invincible.
Kind of agree with this. WHen i play as toss, winning with 1a units collosus just feels so.... unsatisfying. What I like is long macro games with lots of multitasking and micro involved. Tvz is really interesting on huge maps, because drops can be really strong and marine/tank micro is pretty funny to do. When going mech or playing collosus you just turtle up for some time. Move out, 1a or whatever. And one of the players wins.
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I completely agree with this. Colossus is not a fun unit to watch at all. All colossus fights wound up very similar. Either they get overwhelmed by anti-air, or they destroy the opponent. There's very little grey area uncertainty that made watching those insane battles back in BW so awesome to watch. Reavers were the king of this. I miss them 
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On March 18 2011 13:26 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it. You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims.
If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces.
The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either:
1) Outrange it with a siege tank or
2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit.
With a Colossus, you can use:
3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit.
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Protected and well microed reavers can kill 40 hydras each, especially when in a blocked spot or defending a nat etc. (see snow vs jaedong), I think thats what makes us go 'Oh man wtf you serious?' and then 'OH' again and again.
The colo is straight up fighting and maybe kiting a bit while the front army takes it in the face.
That's the main difference imo, and it's affected by the unit's entire basic structure, so the colo probably can't actually be changed uncompletely and equal the hype.
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On March 18 2011 13:36 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:26 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it. You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims. If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces. The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either: 1) Outrange it with a siege tank or 2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit. With a Colossus, you can use: 3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit.
If your not horrible then you will know to engage the army in the middle of the map. Picking off the warp prism would be the #1 priority. Once thats done then the push cannot continue. Not true for the colossus. Its stupid mobile for how strong it is. Also you know a reaver is about the size of a siege tank right? The comparison of a ghost to infestor is no where near the comparison of a reaver to colossus. Not to mention the terrans ground army would be significantly bigger with the lack of the huge investment in vikings.
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I can't help but agree. It is disappointing that the way I micro my Collosi in Plat and the way the pros do isn't that different, skill wise. I don't think that the Reaver should be brought back though. Blizzard probably doesn't want that, either. I think a new, but equally exciting unit that scales well with skill,as well as other units, should be ushered in to keep the game fresh, and the meta game evolving.
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On March 15 2011 09:00 Myia wrote:
So, instead of 4-5 colossus, toss will get 10, and 1 shot the entire zerg army? Tsss... At the moment, if toss go fast colossus vs zerg, lings can take them down even, however, if you upgrade to 2 x 30, then all lings get 1 shotted...? And roaches get 2 shotted? How would zerg counter this at all?
Even tho they attack slower, one volly destroys the entire zerg army in one shot. Now think about terran, same thing happens, the entire terran force gets 1 shotted, even marauders get 2 shotted, and they are supposed to be half decent counters...
At the moment, although they shoot faster than you are suggesting, they hit for less, so getting your army into the position it needs to be into to kill them is easier...
I actually like this idea because it would require warp prisims for colossi to move around. Therefore it ups their cost from 300/200 to 500/200. To compensate they'd have to be better, but it makes it a lot easier to counter colossi due to the fact that toss has to micro them better. Just imagine it though. Colossi pops out of a warp prism. PEW PEW PEW half the army dead. Little effect on game play if you lower their attack speed. Just more hype like he said
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On March 18 2011 13:57 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:36 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:26 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:On March 18 2011 07:22 puissance wrote:
They are indeed boring, because they are so easy to use.
Lowering the attack speed, but increasing the dmg is a good idea in general.
But it is also risky, because of the "one-shot" potencial.
My idea is this:
- Decrease attack speed, but keep dps (against everything) the same. < Maybe even lower it slightly.
- Add a +light modifier, which gives Colossus the ability to one-shot workers.
Result:
- Colossus becomes more like an anti-light specialist, while Immortals is the anti armored specialist.
- Most importantly: Warp Prism + Colossus becomes a good harassment combo, much like Reaver + Shuttle. In the same vein I propose to add 1 base armor to Warp Prisms. They are too flimsy currently. they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it. You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims. If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces. The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either: 1) Outrange it with a siege tank or 2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit. With a Colossus, you can use: 3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit. If your not horrible then you will know to engage the army in the middle of the map. Picking off the warp prism would be the #1 priority. Once thats done then the push cannot continue. Not true for the colossus. Its stupid mobile for how strong it is. Also you know a reaver is about the size of a siege tank right? The comparison of a ghost to infestor is no where near the comparison of a reaver to colossus. Not to mention the terrans ground army would be significantly bigger with the lack of the huge investment in vikings.
In an ideal world, yes, you would engage at the center of the map. However, Protoss has an aversion to being out in the open being surrounded. Protoss was even given a spell to help them control the battlefield - Forcefield. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to adapt my play to avoiding large open spaces where I can be instantly destroyed when that is essentially what I already do, and most Protoss already do.
Adding more marines/marauders won't really help when the Protoss has the hard counter to it that can kill it efficiently. Either you'll be able to snipe it instantly (and win) or you won't (and it will kill your MMM ball with stupid-strong efficiency). Imagine an unkillable faster-than-stim baneling thats guarenteed to hit your army, and deals enough damage to 1-shot a marine - thats what a Reaver would be shooting at you.
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i suppose hype is what makes the world go round but i mean theres people like me who like to go against it and then creat some crazy new stuff =D
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On March 18 2011 14:21 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:57 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:36 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:26 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:
[quote]
they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it. You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims. If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces. The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either: 1) Outrange it with a siege tank or 2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit. With a Colossus, you can use: 3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit. If your not horrible then you will know to engage the army in the middle of the map. Picking off the warp prism would be the #1 priority. Once thats done then the push cannot continue. Not true for the colossus. Its stupid mobile for how strong it is. Also you know a reaver is about the size of a siege tank right? The comparison of a ghost to infestor is no where near the comparison of a reaver to colossus. Not to mention the terrans ground army would be significantly bigger with the lack of the huge investment in vikings. In an ideal world, yes, you would engage at the center of the map. However, Protoss has an aversion to being out in the open being surrounded. Protoss was even given a spell to help them control the battlefield - Forcefield. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to adapt my play to avoiding large open spaces where I can be instantly destroyed when that is essentially what I already do, and most Protoss already do. Adding more marines/marauders won't really help when the Protoss has the hard counter to it that can kill it efficiently. Either you'll be able to snipe it instantly (and win) or you won't (and it will kill your MMM ball with stupid-strong efficiency). Imagine an unkillable faster-than-stim baneling thats guarenteed to hit your army, and deals enough damage to 1-shot a marine - thats what a Reaver would be shooting at you.
If you mass bio vs reaver then you deserve to die. But i guess we can agree to disagree.
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On March 18 2011 14:21 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:57 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:36 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:26 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:14 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 13:10 R0YAL wrote:On March 18 2011 13:06 Aequos wrote:On March 18 2011 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 18 2011 12:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 18 2011 12:41 LanTAs wrote:
[quote]
they tried it. Colosus were super imba, melted marines even faster, completely raped hydras, killed drones in a blink of an eye, and made them more imba. Maybe significantly lower the base damage against non-light, but make the vs light much higher. They'd still be really good against light, but would no longer be the basis of an entire army for dealing with everything else. Sounds like you want a reaver type unit, why not just implement the reaver. There is no reason for blizzard not to. There is - a Reaver would decimate MMM to the point it would be unplayable. Those attractive little balls the units form themselves into would be giant bullseyes for scarabs, each of which would instantly kill most of what it hit. I'd rather have the reaver than the Colossus, solely because it'd be better at its job with less vulnerabilities. Less vulnerabilities? Is that a joke? Please explain to me how the reaver is less vulnerable than colossus. For one, it can't be shot by aircraft, which is pretty huge. For another, it's simply a smaller unit (in the same way a ghost is less vulnerable than a infester). Finally, its slow movement speed is counteracted by a shuttle - if you get vikings to kill the warp prism/shuttle, you don't have a unit that can directly hurt it. You forget that if you have the warp prism then it is susceptible to air. If you dont have a warp prism then you cant attack. Collision size hardly makes any difference whatsoever.. "if you get vikings[...]" yeah since vikings are the only thing that can attack air.. You fail horribly at backing up your claims. If I have a unit with 9 range, I can safely assume that my warp prism needs to be no closer than 9 from the opponents deathball. That gives you exactly 2 things that can shoot it - the thor and the viking. If you bring marines to try and snipe it, it'll work about as well as trying to snipe a Colossus with marines - I'll back up and you'll lose marines to my surrounding army. I was also assuming that you possessed the minimum skill required to unload it before it got blown into giant pieces. The argument isn't about collision size - it's about the ability to pick it out of a group. A ghost is harder to feedback than an infester, and a reaver is slightly harder to take out than a Colossus. A reaver also has a nice solid meatshield of gateway around it that protects it from one of the two ways it can be attacked. Your options to shoot through the gateway deathball are either: 1) Outrange it with a siege tank or 2) Shoot it down with an air-to-ground unit. With a Colossus, you can use: 3) Shoot it down with an air-to-air unit. If your not horrible then you will know to engage the army in the middle of the map. Picking off the warp prism would be the #1 priority. Once thats done then the push cannot continue. Not true for the colossus. Its stupid mobile for how strong it is. Also you know a reaver is about the size of a siege tank right? The comparison of a ghost to infestor is no where near the comparison of a reaver to colossus. Not to mention the terrans ground army would be significantly bigger with the lack of the huge investment in vikings. In an ideal world, yes, you would engage at the center of the map. However, Protoss has an aversion to being out in the open being surrounded. Protoss was even given a spell to help them control the battlefield - Forcefield. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to adapt my play to avoiding large open spaces where I can be instantly destroyed when that is essentially what I already do, and most Protoss already do. Adding more marines/marauders won't really help when the Protoss has the hard counter to it that can kill it efficiently. Either you'll be able to snipe it instantly (and win) or you won't (and it will kill your MMM ball with stupid-strong efficiency). Imagine an unkillable faster-than-stim baneling thats guarenteed to hit your army, and deals enough damage to 1-shot a marine - thats what a Reaver would be shooting at you.
Yeah I still don't get this turn the colossus into a reaver debate. Just implement the reaver, you've seen what QQ has done with maps, first they ignored, then they changed the map pool with equally shit maps, and then finally they came to their own senses and have decided to implement GSL maps.
Just QQ more about no reaver, instead of coming up with dumb colossus changes, hopefully blizz will implement it.
And yeah mm+tanks vs reaver is the shit, it produces totally epic games. There have been quite a few deep-six builds against reaver before, and they have been amazing.
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EPT
