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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
'This ISN'T ABOUT IMBALANCE' 'Colossi only need A-move. And sometimes they get moved back, whoopdie do'. Hypocrite much? PS. With cliffs, good micro players can take advantage of great colossi positioning due to cliff walk. So it's not all A-move. It's just players at the moment aren't taking advantage of that. So suck it up buddy. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On March 15 2011 10:21 andrewwiggin wrote: LOL at OP. 'This ISN'T ABOUT IMBALANCE' 'Colossi only need A-move. And sometimes they get moved back, whoopdie do'. Hypocrite much? PS. With cliffs, good micro players can take advantage of great colossi positioning due to cliff walk. So it's not all A-move. It's just players at the moment aren't taking advantage of that. So suck it up buddy. Wow, way to completely miss the point. | ||
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Kentakky
Sweden1272 Posts
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how2TL
1197 Posts
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On March 15 2011 10:15 ChaosWielder wrote: Colossi are boring units. They don't need to be Reavers 2.0, but they should be more interesting than a 1a unit. They were *designed* to be 1a units, sadly--they spot over cliffs, so no fliers are needed, and they can cliff walk, so they work well in no matter which control group you place them in. They encourage sloppy and, more importantly, uninteresting play. Sadly, it would require a major reworking of the whole game, I think, if such a fundamental unit was altered meaningfully(the KA removal all but guarantees colossus builds as the staple Protoss style, at least for the time being). Chalk this up to another, 'wait until heart of the swarm' type of suggestions. The OP is right, but I don't think much will be done about it. Sad but true. I'm all for the whole user friendly aspect of SC2. But the lack of a challenge or anything to strive for is enough to even turn away the causals. Personally i don't think difficulty will turn off causals. The game should be easy to pick up, but difficult to master. SCBW was Difficult in both aspects and thats why it was a turn off for causals. But theirs no reason to make the game easy to master. How many people got excited with MKP Marine Micro. In one game Marines became the counter to Blings with gosu micro and TvZ became an exciting Match up. As a result all us non Pros had something to strive for and we practiced and practiced. Easy to Pick up- Get the noob hooked(Starter Crack-Gets them excited) Difficulty- Keeps the noob coming back for more(Cheap Crack-Makes them rage and want more) | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
On March 15 2011 10:19 .Aar wrote: The cliff-walking aspect of Colossi creates no hype. For a unit that does create hype using cliff-walking, see the Reaper. Colossi are just boring, plain and simple. I see them like workers. You need them, but you don't go OHHHH SHITTT watching Drones mine minerals. I mean, sure, maybe your Drone is mining the last 5 minerals needed to make an Extractor in a base race right before your last building is about to die to the opponent's SCVs, but.. how often does that kind of thing happen? Tanks, Hellions and Marines with their crazy burst damage --> hype. Thors/BattleCruisers cost a lot and look badass --> hype. Banshees easily have the potential to end the game if not properly countered --> hype. Ghosts are hype incarnate, with the stealth/risk/planning involved in Nuking, the potential to deal huge damage or nullify other strategies with EMP/Snipe. Marauders are probably the most boring Terran unit, but they shoot grenades that slow, so --> hype Medivacs carry precious cargo --> hype Reapers are cliffwalking Banshees without cloak as far as worker harass is concerned --> hype Vikings are like highly mobile ATA Marauders w/o slow, so --> hype Zealots are beefy yet light standard melee units -> no hype, at least until Charge, but even then not really Sentries have FF and GS. GS is all number-play, FF is just expected and there really isn't too much you do with them besides the obvious --> no hype Dark Templar are compared to Banshees, but since they're so less mobile, they're going to just die in a scan in PvT - all that happens is that mining is interrupted for a few seconds, so it's just numbers --> little hype High Templar can shut down spellcasters and storm --> HYPE Immortals can do pretty decent damage to Armored pretty fast and counter Tanks, which are a hype unit, so.. --> some hype Motherships are fucking motherships --> HYPE Pheonix can lift shit, fly fast, are made out of balsa wood --> hype Void Rays can mess shit up if left alone to charge --> hype Warp Prisms, see Medivac, plus Warp In --> hype Carriers are rare and are pretty when they explode, but interceptors are boring as hell --> no real hype Archons aren't Massive, get slowed, do miniscule splash damage --> no hype Colossi are important, expensive, and big, boring damage --> some hype, but only if they're in danger Just my two cents. er u seem a lil biased on some points. sentries no hype, and yet marauders some hype? thors and bcs look badass and cost alot but carriers dont? | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:56 Blyadischa wrote: I'm sorry for sounding like this, but the protoss race is pretty "anti-hype" and makes any matchup with it incredibly boring to watch. Colossi mass up into a ball, then attack. Storms used to require skill to clone and blanket storm, now it's just spam t and win the game, or if you get emp'd just warp more templar in and spam t. I especially hate it when casters say "nice storms", because they weren't nice. It took the player 2 index fingers to destroy an army. Forcefields, same thing. A guy with larger army approaching you? forcefield it away or cut it in half to decimate it with a much smaller army. Spells are so abusive in SC2, they do way too much and are way too easily used. Protoss just happens to have the most of them. Yes, if only another race could press 'T' and completely destroy an army.  All jokes aside, Colossi are boring as hell. I'd prefer something that either was less vulnerable (so could be used for harass in a warp prism) or something less pivotal (so it wasn't a requirement). As it stands, Templar tech is really a poor-man's robo tech, and air tech is - finicky - to say the least. They're usable, but why not just use the easier a-move colossus? I play P, but I suppose that's obvious by now. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
If you don't think you're majorly nerfing the Colossus with your suggested changes then you need to like.. put 5 more seconds of thought into it. Yeah, Colossus are boring, but so are a lot of things. Maybe a Reaver would be more exciting, but Blizzard will never change it that much, not in this game at least. This thread is nothing more than QQ disguised in a half-baked argument. Dragoons were boring in BW, but Stalkers are exciting in SC2 with Blink. Motherships are exciting, forcefields are exciting, etc. There is so much compensation that it's such a moot point to bring up and awful justification for such a major change or nerf. | ||
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oldgregg
New Zealand1176 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On March 15 2011 10:51 oldgregg wrote: what is this KA removal ppl are talking about? o High Templar + Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200665 | ||
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gamefan15
50 Posts
On March 15 2011 10:19 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: My first reaction to this thread is why does it even matter? I'm not trying to troll but to be honest whether or not a unit is exciting doesn't really have much to do with anything. I'm struggling to see what the point of the thread it. It's like me making a thread saying phoenixes take good micro to use effectively. Yeah? So what? Blizzard doesn't change units because they aren't exciting enough. I'd rather have them focusing on stuff that really affects the game, such as balance. Also, if anyone has ever seen a colossus drop, those definitely take dexterity. it has nothing to do with anything if you dont care about the whole esport part of the game and if its exciting to watch, which highly determines how successfull and durable a game will be as an esport title. also unit excitement and micro tension can determine how much fun ppl can get out of the battles as a player.. plus can give you long time motivation because you have some more room to improve. so aslong as you are not only interested in playing a pure macro and decision making rts games without spectators, such subjects remain worthy of discussion. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
Scourge Spider Mines Reaver Scarab High Templar (large range of efficacy that scaled with user skill) Lockdown EMP (ok, not as exciting but stopping drops with EMP is fucking sick and makes a huge difference in the game, or EMPing two clumped arbiters and all of the sudden their attack fails without stasis; oh yeah, it's somewhat hard to land depending on the circumstances) Lurker vs. MM (ok this isn't spell or ability, but this is a high tension encounter that can cause huge swings in the game, so it should be included) Tanks in TvT (flash's tank usage is :D~) Zergling Control in ZvZ (ridiculously hard and unforgiving) ZvT Mutalisk Micro All of these situations in the game all have the potential for big damage, and can hinge on the slimmest margins of superior skill or timing. So there's this (relatively) balanced dance that each side has a chance at winning. Failure is met with decisive explosions and gore and one army disappearing. What do we have on the SC2 side of things (full disclosure: I don't own the game, but I do watch streams) Banelings versus Bio Burrowed Banelings versus Bio Phoenix Graviton Beam (kind of one-sided, but I think it's a cool mechanic that requires a decent amount of precision and control) Forcefields (imbalanced and fun as hell to watch good players use) Blink Stalker Micro (not necessarily dramatic, but a decent skill mechanic overall) I might be missing or two things for SC2, but here's what I see as examples of the "luck" being taken out of the game. You took the reaver's damage and mobility (+shuttle) and made it more conservative, doing less but guaranteed damage combined with easier-to-perform unit control. High Templar are now less powerful, but are easier to use. Zerg versus Bio still retains some of its excitement, but at the cost of combining the lurker and scourge into the baneling. On the positive side, if PTR patch becomes official, you will be able to dodge fungal growth which will hopefully produce some more dynamic micro versus micro. | ||
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KoKoRo
United States186 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
Stronger, but slower; like a Colossus. Makes sense right? Big and strong, but not fast. Perhaps they could even edit its acceleration to be a little slower (speed too may be) so that it's not as easy to just kite over and over; you'll have to anticipiate any snipes a bit before hand to get the Colossi to start moving, or you'll have to use Warp Prisms. This would also help fix the deathball problem; after all, a deathball shouldn't move too fast or else it's both strong and mobile. I can imagine the animation, it would be so much cooler xD Blizzard also adjusted the Colossi speed a few times, with the newest change i think because they wanted it to be able to do better against smaller units right? Now that the game has developed a good bit, I hope they will change it again (HotS? although that would be a really late change; you don't see these in BW). And yeah it would be sort of like a Reaver; drops would be more effective since slow units with slow attacks synergize well with drop micro. LOL at OP. 'This ISN'T ABOUT IMBALANCE' 'Colossi only need A-move. And sometimes they get moved back, whoopdie do'. Hypocrite much? Lol at yourself. I could say "a marine has really high dps, omg!" but that's not balance talk, that's just pointing a fact out. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
@A3iL3r0n Unfortunately they took out the projectile part of the Fungal changes so no play there either. SC2 fights have way too much certainty and come down way too much to math  . I wish they would take steps to correct it. Even FF/Gravitron as silly/stupid because there's no 2nd part to the dynamic. There's no real 'counter' micro/positional play to FFs other than baiting them which is of questionable worth given how many FFs a protoss has at their disposal. | ||
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