EPTColossi are Anti-Hype: Here's Why - Page 2
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mrblue182
United States151 Posts
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The_Piper42
United States426 Posts
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
Another aspect I want to be clear of right from the bat is that I play terran and have no problem with PvZs, terran can counter collosi easily with vikings, but I hate how every other choice fails. It's like some1 forces you to make a unit, or else he will hard counter you with everything else. Protoss collosus takes the role of many units in the protoss army, so after a certain food count it's not necessary to make, for example, immortals anymore, because the critical number of collosi behaves better against ground armored(ex: roach, hydra, stalker) Talking about immortals, even the protoss counter to collosi fails miserably versus the unit it was designed to counter(in larger numbers not 1 vs 1). My opinion, and I believe not mine alone is that Blizzard did not foresee this. StarCraft II should be a game where every unit has a specific role, not a game where if you get to a certain unit tech there is absolutely no reason to make other units. The problem I've noticed is that protoss ball of collosi and stalkers are almost impenetrable by zerg. So how can zerg cope with other huge siege capacity units? So I've made a couple of comparisons. Do note: i'm not adressing only zerg's problems here. 1. Terran siege tank Terran siege tanks are too immobile, once you spot a breach in the defence, you can atack one, maybe zealot, marauder or roach drop on other and do some damage. #@@@ like thi won't work on collosus for the obvious reasons: -collosi are too mobile and weak spots in defence are almost inexistent -collosi don't do friendly damage so using an opponent's force against him is impossible vs them 2.The mechanic in BW: reaver + shuttle The reaver was so slow and immobile. So protoss needed shuttles to make them mobile. At first, reaver having no delay when firing right after unloading from shuttles was imballanced vs terran. So they fixed it. But right now the collosus is almost like 2 units in 1. It is mobile and packs a mean punch. It has no delay, atacks right after he stops moving. Also, he goes up cliffs and can escape pursuing land units easily while kiting, not to mention how kiting collosus behaves now. I am not going to compare it to zerg's siege weapon, neither the guardian from BW or the Broodlord from SC2, for obvious reasons. So, drawing a line after what i said earlier, the collosus has 3 major problems. 1. Mobility: Unlike the siege tank, collosus has huge damage at high range and can escape if an entranced position is atacked. 2. Instant damage: Unlike reavers, as soon as collosi gets in range of their targets, the damage is dealt. There is no delay and no way to escape that AOE. As a related thing, even in BW, when you saw lurkers burrow, tanks sieging up you could back off, but in SC2 if you get overpowered, you pretty much lose your army. 3. Shields: Collosi are so mobile and have so much damage, I said it. But looking at how they enter a place, take just shields damage and leave like nothing happened is ridiculous. So, after having all the above said I can propose 3 fixes for the collosus: 1. make it have a delay, so it has to stand still for a bit before he can atack, or at least before he can use his 9 range atack, just use his 6 range. 2. make collosus do less damage to armored units. 3. make a unit ability in each race who can do damage directly to life, instead of shields(similar to plaguuuuu in BW) - also an idea for HotS. 4. nerf collosus speed, either regular speed or acceleration (when he stands still, cpl of seconds after he starts moving, the collosus is slower) 5. any combination of the above, everything or nothing. | ||
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ExquisiteRed
396 Posts
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dave333
United States915 Posts
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Hollis
United States505 Posts
Oh and give me back my hydra movement speed upgrade. And probably nerf hydra DPS some to compensate. | ||
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razy
Russian Federation899 Posts
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
I used to want the colossus to have a slower attack speed but now I dont think that would be the best way to go about it with this issue. I just dont like units that have so much going their way, like with your comparison with it to the reaver. The reaver is extremely immobile and attacks much slower, however the colossus attacks at a decent rate and its 100x more mobile than the reaver, even being able to scale terrain. So what bw players ended up inventing shuttle-reaver micro which rewarded the better player and was extremely entertaining to watch. Another reason that the colossus is "anti-hype" as the op stated, is that pretty much anyone can execute them to the extent of the pros. When you see something thats very hard to execute it causes more hype. But when things are easy to execute, you look at it and say "meh I could do that.." I am against nerfing the colossus. Blizzards approach to balance so far as it seems, is to just nerf whatever seems to be too strong. The problem actually lies within the game design. It would be much better if there were a better way to deal with colossus instead of just nerfing them. That was the best part about bw, each race had so many seemingly overpowered units and abilities but there was always an answer to it because the game design was as perfect as i've seen in any game. Luckily we have 2 expansions left for Blizzard to fix the game design so I have no worries for its future because I trust Blizzard will be able to fill in the gaps. | ||
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pyaar
United States423 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
even if your right, so what? it seems like your directly comparing it to the reaver a bit too much. for example, what hype units do Terran have? and a better question, why does hype have to be something a specific unit brings? why cant it be a combination of units and upgrades or a unit + terrain advantages. | ||
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
On March 15 2011 08:54 Shlowpoke wrote: So how could the Colossus be more hype? Replace it with the Reaver? Nope, you wouldn't even have to do something that extreme. Just make the Colossus shoot half as fast at twice the damage (30x2), and make it move slow as hell. This should have little impact on how much dps the Colossus does in a giant ball. It does however, open up the possibility for mineral line harassment and require Colossi to have Warp Prisms with them if they want to get anywhere fast. For the animation, imagine the Colossus chargin' it's lasers, then releasing a strong blast all at once. Think Yamato Cannon. The charge would build so much hype. Thoughts? Do you guys still get excited when a player masses Colossi? I sure don't. Y'know I usually don't pay much mind to these kind of threads, but I think you have a valid point here. Collo deathball is just plain boring, I agree. I like your suggestion, it would definitely involve more micro and open up creative play. But, as usual, I'm not sure how the balance of all this would work. As a T player for one, I can just imagine vikings being just 10x more devastating vs that suggestion and leaving a P way too vulnerable for my bio ball. Maybe the collo is just non entertaining and there's nothing we can really do about it. I don't know  | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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Vathus
Canada404 Posts
On March 15 2011 08:54 Shlowpoke wrote: Now imagine a Scourge or two vs a harassing Corsair. The Scourge beat the Corsair, but can't catch it. So when the Scourge show up the Corsair has to run all the way back home or GET BLOWN UP IMMEDIATELY IMO we should keep the colossus and add scourge back. Create hype with colossus trying to dodge clouds of scourgyyyyy. Would be more exciting than any change to the colossus. Edit: I realize blizzard probably won't bring back any of the units they removed but i do think we should think about some of the units that "counter" the colossus as well because currently vikings and corrupters are pretty boring as well. | ||
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mDuo13
United States307 Posts
On the other hand, the way colossi walk across cliffs and shoot criss-crossing laser beams of fiery death is really visually appealing. Somehow it still gives me chills after seeing it a million times. Edit: P.S. ExquisiteRed, I'm guessing you don't pay attention to the 2D fighter community. Using "hype" as an adjective similar in meaning to "exciting" (or as a noun roughly meaning "excitement") is pretty common slang there and in a few other places by now. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
@MindRush If you would nerf the colossus, i'm sorry, but protoss w/l ratio would just plummet with a laughable HT and a nerfed colossus, not even worth playing P anymore, so you should mention the consequences of such drastic measure, or something to compensate that nerf with. Oh, and colossus is not that mobile as you think. Apart from the cliff moving. Terrans bioball with a bunch of medivacs goes stimmed all the time, zerg pretty much all units are faster than average, so toss units are actually among the slowest, except for tanks. Actually, what a lot of terrans do vs colossus builds is drop on lots of places since the army is so immobile. | ||
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SpiritAshura
United States1271 Posts
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frozt_
United States234 Posts
On March 15 2011 09:09 Nanic wrote: I would disagree, have you forgotten the baneling? Different units require more micro then others, however the Collusi doesn't compare to the reaver. But the game still involves micro, BW was hard not because of micro but because it was just hard to manage your economy and be everywhere at once. Not just microing reavers and other units. reaver drops in sc2 :D that´s kinda interesting but sry guys sc2 isn´t made for the microkings | ||
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spancho
United States161 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
Just bringing this up to try to gauge what makes a relatively boring unit at the base level more interesting than another boring unit. | ||
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