On March 15 2011 16:21 PITN wrote: The warp prism has the same effective hps as a shuttle. Only difference is that instead of 60 shields the warp prism has 40. The rest is hps adding up to 140.. And this 140 is only 10 less than a medivac. I wish people would stop fucking crying about how 'weak' warp prisms are. protip: keep transport units away from things which can shoot them.
This is news to me. Why do they seem to die so much faster then?
(I was zerg in BW and noncompetitive, and am terran now)
Pretty much every Protoss unit SC2 added is either a game-killer (in terms of slowing down or dumbing down the game, not in terms of balance) or completely useless unit, except the Phoenix which is awesome.
Colossi and Sentries make Protoss boring to play and especially boring to watch. It's the worst combination of units/abilities imaginable, it's just so anti-Starcraft it's painful.
Yeah it's so boring that blizzard should just nerf them to make things interesting.
Do you note my epic levels of sarcasm? This is just a new way to cry over imbalance, disguised as 'entertainment value'.
If it wasn't entertaining enough to watch, sc2 would be getting smaller in viewership; and not bigger. And FYI colossi were what made me BUY sc2. And they're the first unit my non-sc2 friends go gaga over when we watch matches now and then.
On March 15 2011 16:21 PITN wrote: The warp prism has the same effective hps as a shuttle. Only difference is that instead of 60 shields the warp prism has 40. The rest is hps adding up to 140.. And this 140 is only 10 less than a medivac. I wish people would stop fucking crying about how 'weak' warp prisms are. protip: keep transport units away from things which can shoot them.
This is news to me. Why do they seem to die so much faster then?
(I was zerg in BW and noncompetitive, and am terran now)
Had it pointed out that shuttles have 1 armour whereas warp prisms don't apparently. Prob doesn't help that marines got a dps buff too heh
On March 15 2011 18:57 Talin wrote: Colossi and Sentries make Protoss boring to play and especially boring to watch. It's the worst combination of units/abilities imaginable, it's just so anti-Starcraft it's painful.
Personally, i find sentries super cool and exciting to play with, and watch. There are so many different uses of force fields, and it's not as easy as many people make it to be. And the more skilled you are, the more efficient your force field usage gets. Compare MC force field usage to your average protoss. Also hallucination has so much potential.
Yeah, I love the Zerg and Terran players in the thread who say "remove the colossus - um, because it's boring, that's the only reason" and then conveniently neglect to acknowledge the entire Protoss race would collapse like a deck of cards in a wind tunnel. Even a significant nerf would collapse Protoss because the colossus is basically the roach/bane or MM of the other races - the giant band-aid unit that makes up for other deficiencies.
So how could the Colossus be more hype? Replace it with the Reaver?
Nope, you wouldn't even have to do something that extreme. Just make the Colossus shoot half as fast at twice the damage (30x2), and make it move slow as hell. This should have little impact on how much dps the Colossus does in a giant ball. It does however, open up the possibility for mineral line harassment and require Colossi to have Warp Prisms with them if they want to get anywhere fast.
For the animation, imagine the Colossus chargin' it's lasers, then releasing a strong blast all at once. Think Yamato Cannon. The charge would build so much hype.
Thoughts? Do you guys still get excited when a player masses Colossi? I sure don't.
Y'know I usually don't pay much mind to these kind of threads, but I think you have a valid point here. Collo deathball is just plain boring, I agree. I like your suggestion, it would definitely involve more micro and open up creative play. But, as usual, I'm not sure how the balance of all this would work. As a T player for one, I can just imagine vikings being just 10x more devastating vs that suggestion and leaving a P way too vulnerable for my bio ball.
Maybe the collo is just non entertaining and there's nothing we can really do about it. I don't know
Yeah, if P was forced to cart them around in shuttles, vikings would be FAR too strong.
Speed prisms with a colossus are pretty good for harass now since they cant be caught, but it would be just way too much risk if they had to be present everytime you moved since a single miss-step would be so insanely costly.
On March 15 2011 18:57 andrewwiggin wrote: You know what's super boring to watch? Roaches.
Yeah it's so boring that blizzard should just nerf them to make things interesting.
Do you note my epic levels of sarcasm? This is just a new way to cry over imbalance, disguised as 'entertainment value'.
If it wasn't entertaining enough to watch, sc2 would be getting smaller in viewership; and not bigger. And FYI colossi were what made me BUY sc2. And they're the first unit my non-sc2 friends go gaga over when we watch matches now and then.
So think about that.
Did you buy SC2 because of how they work in game or because of how they look/their concept?
Because I agree, they are cool in theory, look awesome... they just scale terribly and become a piece of shit unit that leads to battles being massive landslides.
Oh not enough vikings/corrupters, P wins easily Oh enough vikings/corrupters, P dies without a chance (Theres also the Oh too many vikings/corrupters, P wins easily, but whatever)
Lots of P units are like this - perfectly awesome when in small numbers, stupid as hell when massed.
On March 15 2011 19:11 jgelling wrote: Yeah, I love the Zerg and Terran players in the thread who say "remove the colossus - um, because it's boring, that's the only reason" and then conveniently neglect to acknowledge the entire Protoss race would collapse like a deck of cards in a wind tunnel. Even a significant nerf would collapse Protoss because the colossus is basically the roach/bane or MM of the other races - the giant band-aid unit that makes up for other deficiencies.
Of course you cant remove it or even nerf it without some serious additions to protoss. I dont know if its possible to do anything about it until an expansion anyway.
On March 15 2011 19:22 weiliem wrote: Cool suggestion.... but wouldnt it look too wierd having colosus in warp prism for mineral line harassment?? oO, it looks awkward to me....
It's been done to me a few times, but i didnt view it as "oh no, drop harass!" more like "free colossus? Thanks!". It's difficult to do and unless the terran/zerg army is on the other side of the map it wont do too much
hmm I'm way in the minority here, but I don't find them to be too boring. I think they are definitely too "swingy" of a unit in that they force certain units to be built, and they force the game down a road that feels too narrow. I've never once been bored watching stalkers/colossus micro vs bio/vikings. I'm also inclined to say that anybody who thinks that battle is too easy to micro might be a little full of shit.
But the OP makes some great points and I understand where people are coming from. If the majority of the community wanted the Colossus radically redesigned or replaced I'd support them.
A year or two from now, will we be saying the same thing? Can the game change enough?
On March 15 2011 09:00 Reason.SC2 wrote: Oooh I really like the idea of making colossi attack and move much slower but hit harder.
Imagine warp prism micro, with colossi 1-shotting probes. Om-nomnom
Actually, during beta.. Colossi fired slower but did double the damage. Therefore they did oneshot workers. But they nerfed that, and do the same fire faster but less hard to the Thor too.
I love the way you put this and I feel that a solution such as the one you suggested would both reward the better player more, but also make the matchups more exciting.
Would love to see something like this implemented.
To be honest the colossus is the only new unit I actually like is SC2. The problem with the colossus isn't really a problem with the actual unit, it's the entire game. It's very very powerfull when you factor in all the other protoss units. But that's the issue, removing it or nerfing it, completely kills the protoss race. Any adjustments to that unit should mean the rest of the race is getting a massive over haul, because right now the race is designed around the colossus.
I think people hate it because of how often they see the unit, factoring in how dominating it leads the protoss army. MMM has been boring as hell since beta, the colossus has just gotten less cool over time.
The problem here is simple, protoss needs better options. In BW you could get far with your gateway units since they weren't horrible, tech to templars, reavers, arbiters, corsairs or carriers. Each of these builds were different, you didn't see pros build all these units in a match, because each build was in a word ''different." Going carriers wasn't the same as going arbiters, and arbiters tech was different from templar tech. In that once you were invested in it you were stuck with it until you got the economy to tech further.
In SC2 if you go HT before colossus you're not being more efficient, you're trying to be cute or something, because going colossus is always better and safer. Storms miss, HT's can get EMP, and then you don't have enough dps for your gateway units to survive or do enough damage.Carriers lose to simple mass marines. DTs are hit or miss mostly miss. Relying solely on immortals is unpredicable. The mothership continues to be a joke, certainly not a replacement to arbiters. Phoenix are great. But voidrays again have to be a part of the colossus ball or something similar, otherwise just cheese units.
If this game stayed as is, 10 years from now you would still see the same colossus builds you see now. That's how standard the colossus is.
I agree that they are boring and also unsatisfying to use, it's the reason I didn't choose toss even though I played P in BW. Unfair really to compare it to the reaver though, I don't see why everyone does. They're in the same tech tree but otherwise they fill entirely different roles, plus most of the 'hype' generated by reaver drops comes from the randomness of the scarab pathing.
Collosus is the most boring unit in the game - absolutely agree with the OP. There is nothing unexpected from collosus ever. If I see collosus from protoss I can already imgagine everything what will happen in the game after collosus comes. Toss gonna mass his collosus army and then go A-move, or maybe do some timing but that does not matter.
If reavers would be in game instead of collosus the game would be much much more interesting. But I doubt even in expansions blizzard will remove collosus from the game
ersonally i think immortal + archon + storm is where its at. I dont like using colossus :/
The reaver was amazing because by itself it was decent, but when you combined it with another unit and you had skill behind it, it became an epic weapon. With the colossus you cannot use it with a shuttle like you could the reaver, It is to much of a risk because of its super huge price.Reavers were good in low numbers, colossus are good in bigger numbers :/
EPT
ersonally i think immortal + archon + storm is where its at. I dont like using colossus :/
