On March 15 2011 16:33 Falling wrote:First- yeah BW it was a shuttle or speed shuttle. Not a dropship- that was Terran.
Second- I don't know about this. Stats-wise, yeah they're equivalent in hitpoints. But in the BW case, marines weren't near as good and in pvt, it was generally turrets that shut down shuttle play (or the occasional wraith or goliath build ala Stork.) Speed shuttles could move around a lot easier without dodging hundreds of stimming marines like in SC2.
So in SC2- while the hitpoints on the medivac and the warp prism are generally the same, the ability to catch drops aren't quite the same: Sensor tower/ viking or stim marines vs phoenix or blink stalker. There are more factors than simply the hitpoints of one drop tech vs another (including how easy one one is to get and how one interrupts collosi production.)
Still don't see sensor towers much, but yeah, they'd shut down the drops hard. And vikings do too. I can see how they'd be weak in PvT. The thing is though, with the ability to use warp prisms to warp in units they are potentially a hell of a lot stronger than shuttles ever were. I'd argue that protoss has plenty of options to spot drops though, observers and proxy pylons are pretty good. But we are digressing a bit here.
On March 15 2011 16:51 Moonloop wrote:Yeah, but Warp Prisms have no armour. I don't know how much (if any) shuttles have, but medivacs have 1 armour.
Shuttles have 1 armour. Interesting that they'd get rid of this. Hadn't realised. Makes them a little weaker, but possibly in the face of warping units in with them they justified it. (can't claim to understand blizzard's logic on balance :p).
I wonder why the Colossus is being singled out, just about every unit in SC2 can be a candidate for being boring.
Banelings are the only units that come close to being as entertain as the stuff in BW. Hell even blink stalkers are boring for being just so obvious, that's what blink does, the micro isn't impressive at all coming from a BW background.
They took away the archon toilet..BTW. Blizzard thinks exciting stuff are imbalanced.
I've been wondering ever since I saw that Wombo Combo video.
If you look at Daigo's video, you can clearly see just why people were so excited, with the lifebar, the quick succession of no-damage blocks, and the tournament.
But for the second Wombo Combo video, you don't see a fast reaction, you don't see incredible dexterity, and you don't really see an impressive comeback except for the guy screaming "WOOO" at maybe 3 or 4 moves by the 3 characters.
Just what exactly is so impressive for that Wombo Combo? What point am I missing?
On March 15 2011 17:53 orgolove wrote: I've been wondering ever since I saw that Wombo Combo video.
If you look at Daigo's video, you can clearly see just why people were so excited, with the lifebar, the quick succession of no-damage blocks, and the tournament.
But for the second Wombo Combo video, you don't see a fast reaction, you don't see incredible dexterity, and you don't really see an impressive comeback except for the guy screaming "WOOO" at maybe 3 or 4 moves by the 3 characters.
Just what exactly is so impressive for that Wombo Combo? What point am I missing?
Just make the Colossus shoot half as fast at twice the damage (30x2), and make it move slow as hell.
Um, would it be "exciting" to see new and unique ways for Protoss to lose? Because it sounds like you're proposing a significant damage nerf (since a slower rate of attack means fewer attacks overall before being sniped) and huge speed nerf.
How would this be balanced out?
This on top of the KA nerf would completely break Protoss.
colossi were like this in Beta, then they nerfed them to 15x2.
The problem is with the unit that is too boring, it's not a starcraft unit... it's a war of the world unit.
Developers really screwed up with this... and now they are nerfing the templar because they want more colossi usage. This is so sad... Dustin Browder probably wants that new sc2 units are more used than OLD "templar" SC1 units.
The last Zenith game was so fun without colossi and with only templars.
I saw a (1) - (2) Colosus once. Problem is I don't even remember who did it or where I saw it. It was quite a while ago already... I'm sure it wasn't in a GSL tournament. It was a Colosus drop/harass on the natural on Scrap Station. Toss was on the right side. Does anyone remember that game?
I am inclined to agree with most of your points, but I think it's too early to write it off right now. After seeing that game I thought: hmmm, that has potential.
Agree with OP completely, Colossus are just a plain boring replacement unit for reavers... requires little if none micro at all - just move back a bit and the rest is amove.
On March 15 2011 18:10 Valckrie wrote: Agree with OP completely, Colossus are just a plain boring replacement unit for reavers... requires little if none micro at all - just move back a bit and the rest is amove.
This is why I'm so upset over the KA nerf. I really can't think of a good reason to prefer the more expensive, way slower HT tech now. I can't even imagine the timing working on a 2 base HT build with enough usable HTs.
On March 15 2011 13:43 Frobert wrote: I have faith in the future of SC2 (in about a decade), but the current trends in its design and patching make it bland and uninteresting to watch compared to BW.
It didn't take 10 years for BW to become amazing, BW was amazing for 10 years.
I also agree with OP. With templar getting nerfed again it's going to put protoss further into colossus tech, as now they really dont have as good of a templar transition.
oh bad memory alert. Colossi did fire slower and did more damage, and completly destroyed worker lines and everything with hit and run, thus a damage nerf to prevent this hit and run, which was to strong and to easy to execute.
And swt archon toilet was boring, waiting for the army to pop back out and completly get destroyed by a barrage of shots thats way more fun, then just seing a stacked death animation of multiple units.
and yes it was so easy to use a shuttle in bw, where the single wraith you got could even hunt down the speed shuttle, while a speed prism can just dance around a viking. And it doesn't need to be loaded so it can always fake a here i come in a sensor field making the opponent nervous and give him the creeps. And also wow 1 armor traded of for shield regen so it can even take a few shots on the reatreat and be at full energie the next run it.
Also mmm i think blink and observer stop drops way harder then sensor tower and vikings do, you see a sensor tower and you can outrun vikings (I agree that you don't see them before they will fire). You don't see the observer or you would probably not drop and you don't see the blink stalker before its to late.
Well don't really care, for me the prism is way easier to use then the shuttle, since there isn't this one wraith flying arround with only one thing in mind and even if there is a single viking with the same thing as the wraith in mind i can simply outrun him and have no damage since shield regen.
About the colossi to many threads about it where everyone already stated their opinion. But its quiet simply, gateway units = the stuff you micro. Colossi = the artillery thing doing its terrible damage if the opponent isn't microing. There are a few things that make it hard to reduce the colossi damage, like the autotargeting of units that are nearer, so at the end they will still fire at the concave and not fire on this 2 marauders in the frond with no neightbouring units. Anyway sc2 seems like since they made macro easier they didn't wanted to go with the a person can micro one unit good and win(everyone can do this, the challenge in bw was that you had to run a base while doing this), but more with the a person can micro most parts of his army and win. So maybe sc2 is to hard to play right as you mostly see people only using one group selected and use their apm to select different unit groups. (well it seems better to play without group selection keys so did say nothing)
So i totally love to see games where it goes to, bring down the artillery with good micro + attack position, while the other side micros the rest of their army to defend it. Congratulation tosses you stole your army composition from the bw terrans *G*. (and most people loved to see mech well this is the toss mech )
a neat way to balance the evil colossi would be a inverted non implented carrier shield. So shields are only effectiv against air units. Would make them more vulnerable to ground, while air still works as good as it does now. Might make siege tanks a bit to strong, but there are still immortals so don't think its a problem. This change would atleast encourage people to try awesome moves to snipe em, and this would encourage a toss to micro is army more. (instead of now use the colossi to force air units and then start to micro their gateway units while the opponent has some useless air units in the sky)
The Collossus is a horrible unit for us spectators, but most of the P units are this bad. The immortal, Stalker, Pheonix, Void Ray. I can not watch matches involving P anymore, and this is sad. What makes P so horrible to watch in SC2 is that I never once sit in awe watching pro's pulling of stuff I would never be able to do.
May I add some videos of P "hype" as the OP would have put it? Here we have Corsair control, Dragoon micro and drop play.
I do not know if there is any easy fix for Protoss, and I believe the only way is to totally redesign P in HotS. The thing is that Blizzard had a chance when they altered the Pheonix, but instead they dumbed it down and let it autoshoot, when it could have changed the attack/animation to have real skill required to shoot-move, but somehow they completely missed the mark, and I do not really believe that Blizzard today is able to do something better. It is just not the same company today.
Scrap the Colossus already. It is the single biggest gameplay-killer in the game and kills all viewing pleasure for me easily. Think about the most epic PvZs and PvTs you know (Huk vs I think Nestea for example, where Huk doesn't build a single colossus and wins.), do they involve any colossi? Probably not. And from a players perspective, the epic games I have do not involve colossi. As soon as colossi are out, the game loses all it's epicness (granted, I'm zerg and I'm bad, but still).
Yeah I agree, colossi are fucking dull. They're vulnerable and you're forced to build them alot of times. If you loose them you're dead, and you can't do much do make extra good use out of them.
Pretty dull. T_T.
Make the archon massive, redesign the colossi completely.
EPT
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