On March 12 2011 12:39 TommyLove wrote: help i'm so confused. who is hacking? igware or sorcery? could it be one incredible player that plays on two accounts?
Hokay here's a little better explanation:
David Zhu on real ID friend list = iGware
Josh Price on real ID friend list = Sorcery
iGware is top 5 1v1 in the world.
Sorcery is playing on iGware's account.
So it is safe to assume that it is not David Zhu hacking, but Josh Price
wow josh price is amazing. is he going to win the GSL soon?
On March 12 2011 12:43 caradoc wrote: On the one hand, this is interesting because he's a top ranked player and the replays are quite suggestive.
On the other hand, this is turning into a witchhunt, and on top of it there is a thread for hackers already, so I'm anticipating it will get closed like the other igware thread.
The witch hunt aspect is a bit disturbing, but given the circumstances of this case, I think it would be best if Blizzard were to check (I assume they actually try to detect hackers), because he was #1 on their top 200 last week. You just can't have a hacker be there like that, it's no good for the game.
Essentially this. I don't care at all if someone takes a few points from me on ladder... It's blizzard's job to catch and prevent hackers, if they do it vs me all it means is some good practice against tough odds. I've never played anyone I knew was a hacker in SC2, so maybe I'm just naiive but
As I said before, I thought it was somewhat suspicious play, but we did play about ~10 games and while there were some suspicious actions it can be difficult to know exactly what your opponent scouted.
On March 12 2011 12:43 caradoc wrote: On the one hand, this is interesting because he's a top ranked player and the replays are quite suggestive.
On the other hand, this is turning into a witchhunt, and on top of it there is a thread for hackers already, so I'm anticipating it will get closed like the other igware thread.
The witch hunt aspect is a bit disturbing, but given the circumstances of this case, I think it would be best if Blizzard were to check (I assume they actually try to detect hackers), because he was #1 on their top 200 last week. You just can't have a hacker be there like that, it's no good for the game.
Essentially this. I don't care at all if someone takes a few points from me on ladder... It's blizzard's job to catch and prevent hackers, if they do it vs me all it means is some good practice against tough odds. I've never played anyone I knew was a hacker in SC2, so maybe I'm just naiive but
As I said before, I thought it was somewhat suspicious play, but we did play about ~10 games and while there were some suspicious actions it can be difficult to know exactly what your opponent scouted.
Replay camera mode brah. If you watch closely, as I did to write that explanation, you can clearly see what he does is very very very suspicious.
I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend. That said, I hate hackers, and would not support them if I believed they hacked.
On March 12 2011 11:28 ProTech wrote: First of all I would like to make this statement before creating this thread: I am in no way shape or form saying that these players are better or worse than me. I am simply making this thread because people of TL.net wanted some proof as to why I believe they are hacking. In this thread I will give you a in depth analysis as to why they are hacking, reasoning and game knowledge of 2v2 high level master league matches. I will let you decide for yourself whether or not they are hacking. I believe that they cheat, but people will have their own opinion, but as some of these replays will show that my suspicion can be backed up. Furthermore I would like some of you to get a better understanding of how myself and bandit play. It may look as if I am not really doing anything but I'm actually doing quite a bit, feeding and microing. This is the opening statement, as to not spew this thread with any bad manner, I am simply putting my point into perspective.
As mentioned before, iGware is not playing his 1v1 Ladder games, Sorcery ( Josh Price ) is playing on the account and conducting his cheese play. First assumption of some kind of cheating.
Why does cheesing ==> cheating?
Secondly PinkPrincess (HelpImDying from thebgh.com admin) is saying that he does not like to play for money, but I'm sorry I simply do not buy it. If you are top 5 in the world playing for money is a huge motivator especially with all the time you invest into the game. Second assumption of cheating.
I even said later in the thread that he said he's played several tournaments.
Finally, iGware backs down from a huge tournament stating that his car breaks down. The reality of this, is that it was simply a lie. Disqualification was at hand when Josh Price would show up to the LAN on David Zhu's account. There are three assumptions of cheating, the shit just does not add up. Now, for the replays.
Even if this is the case, sharing accounts is not equivalent to hacking.
First of all,at 7:10 notice the timing of blue's e-bay. I notice that the banshee is about half way done, but as soon as the cloak field starts to upgrade, he immediatly make an e-bay. Notice also at this point he still has not scouted the starport, an assumption like that is ridiculous.
Seriously? He saw the guy doing the hellion/banshee build. Why would it be surprising that the guy is going banshees? Your logic doesn't make much sense - you don't need to throw down an ebay anywhere near when cloak starts...
8:10 notice how he afk's his banshee, but then as soon as the command center goes down he kills the scvs. Obviously he doesnt enter the terran's base because he can see a viking being made.
I guess the afk banshee was a bit weird, but when he came back at 9:40ish, why wouldn't he go directly there? Seems an afk-ish banshee isn't much, especially since even assassinating the scv he runs a risk with viking...
He also goes raven that quick blindly? Please. He hasn't even scouted the starport yet. It's too much of an assumption with out scouting. 11:15, notice he micros the banshee, looks into the FoW and then opts to move that banshee to the back? LoL?
Yep, and then he sends it in at 11:45 and gets it promptly killed to the Vikings waiting there. Why would he do that if he was hacking to see whether it was safe at 11:15?
13:35 notice how he starts to set up for the attack, resetting rallies into his base, moving marines to the cliff that Namchir is about to attack, fishy? Of course it is. He's constantly setting up for attacks which he has no idea is about to come. Notice also how little he scouts, but why would you need to scout if you're hacking. I don't buy it, if you're top 10 in the ladder world wide, you're going to have better scouting tactics, like NamchiR constantly checking for expos. Yet iGware scouts nothing. 16 mins into to game he doesnt even see the fucking starport.
Yet he's still caught relatively flatfooted at 14:20
17:30, as little as he scouts already, watch how he control his dropship, he knows that hellion is there, there would have been no way for him to know what the way point of that hellion would be, so he opts to pull back at the exact time, to find out where it was going and get out of range effectively(OBVIOUSLY) Notice where he places the drop. You would think in TvT that would be a fucking awful place to drop with out scouting, it's a terran's mineral line, there normally would be turrets there, incase of banshee harass, yet he doesnt even fucking scan it to see if anything is there because if there were turrets there he would have been GG'd with that drop. 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
Conclusion: iGware showed off not only his production tab hack, but also his map hack.
Game 2: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
If he has production tab hack, why would he periodically look at his ally's base early on by the way?
For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out. He starts to move out, looks into the fog of war, then moves back to his base knowing that all those reinforcements are coming so he can't save his ally. He waits for the stragglers to move into the Z base, giving himself a huge window to move out. LoL?
I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation of events. He's hesitant to move out because he knows you guys have lots of speedlings running around. It's not like he needs a hack to know that two zergs who have been going 10 pool every game and from whom he's already SEEN lots of speedlings periodically in his ally's base have a lot of lings running around.
9:06 baneling nest goes down, probably looking @ the production tab. He opts to make that many bunkers @ his door @ that time, getting ready for the bane bust.
a) he doesn't need to make bunkers right as a baneling nest goes down. He could actually just wait until nearer the time considering it takes over double the time for banelings to actually hit him as compared to building a bunker. Arguably if he did use production tab hack, he'd wait until the baneling nest is about half done. b) knowing how much you love to baneling bust every game, are you surprised he throws down bunkers? He's playing a defensive game against players he feels he's better than (i.e., he's not super afraid of entering a macro game since you guys hurt your eco with your opening builds), and who are known for hyperaggressive all-inish play.
14:02, sorcery is microing the banshee, but he doesnt scout any of the tech structures so he has no reason to believe that baneling or anything else is coming out. 14:15, watch how he's attacking my base and pulls his marines to ramp RIGHT as the baneling are coming to the front door, he started moving them before he knew they were coming, yet he can prepare for them? lol..
Admittedly that move is one of the only moves I found a bit suspicious, but I don't think it proves much since he already saw a bunch of lings outside, and could be trying to respond to the fact that they were probably going to try to come up. 16:03 notice how he is sitting at his marine location waiting for those zerglings to come and attack. Notice how when lings are around his scvs he is always moving his marines and protecting his mineral line, even though the lings are obviously not going to his mineral line, but just in case![/quote]Wait, what? It's pretty obvious that he's going to move his marines to guard his expansion as he takes it... The second part of your statement there doesn't really make sense to me
18:17 mass baneling moves out, we kill the overlord in the mid, take a different path, so he has no idea it's coming, yet he can make bunkers @ that time, and set up for the attack? 18:34, right as the units get at the front of his base he puts all his units into the crack and set up as best he can for the massive bust, coincidence / timing? No. Hacks.
And just leaves his tanks as suicide instead of actually using them to block the crack...? If he knew you were coming at that exact second, I'd think he could do a better job at blocking it.
Conclusion: Production tab hack / Map hack. There is simply no way he can sit there and setup for everything @ the exact right time the entire game, especially since he is not using any scans. In this game there are a bunch of fishy moves that make no sense, with out constantly scouting the map and not knowing whats coming, yet he sets up for everything and executes all the moves perfectly. I don't buy it. You're decision, this is what I think.
He didn't at all properly respond to Mutas at 17:30 (lost tech lab). If he was using production tab hack, wouldn't have have noticed mutas building, and guarded it?
Game 3: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
I would like to start this explanation by saying that this is probably the most obvious out of all the replays that I have. Here we go:
At 3:25, he looks at the lings, but only when they come into his ally's vision range. It seems like a decidedly non-hackerish thing to do
To star this game off, we have 10 pooled almost every game so it is safe to assume that we will be 10 pooling again, so his open is not hacking, it's just smart based on what we have been going. Also to make 3~4 bunkers incase of an early bane bust is a smart idea as well. However, as soon as the baneling nest goes down, watch the continuous mass of bunkers that are being produced.
You play this way every ZZ v ZT that goes beyond 10 pool from what I've seen, even down to sending out an extra queen to assassinate the scout overlord.
This is the first sign of hacking in this game, also notice that the zerg is going nothing but roaches, this is a complete and utter hard counter to our build this game. Notice how Sorcery has only one overlord hovering over our choke point, but that's it. They have no scouted our base @ all. Around 6:00 the baneling nest goes down, he continues to make bunkers, and pump roaches. Production tab hacking. We take a queen off the creep to kill that overlord in fear that he may scout the baneling nest, so now we have 6:56 they have literally not scouted anything on the map, so how can they know how to counter out build? Sac a fuckin lord bro, make it less obvious. 7:42 lings are coming in amass from purple, and the bunkers continue to be created, while roaches are beginning the mass. 8:23: 30 baneling morphs in, bunkers continue to make, as well as roaches to counter the massive pain they are about to feel. They have not scouted the map AT ALL THE ENTIRE GAME.
It's not like they could worker scout anyway. It's just playing ZT v ZZ without playing offensively
9:00 the baneling move out, they move their units in the perfect location to defend the attack.LoL? This is even before we get close to their base before they see whats coming. First attack is thwarted because of their perfect preparation even though they have no scouted the map at all, typical. Now after that first bust you would think, ok the two zergs know they are going mass bane ling so we will recreate our wall, that's a good assumption. However they have no scouted the map at all, so why are they not even afraid of anti air? They continue to hard counter baneling the whole time. 12:06, 30 more baneling morph in sorry 40! iGware sends out 4 scvs and look what he does as the baneling morph in. They jknow they don't have enough structures to counter 40 baneling so he sends out 4 scvs to create a huge wall, at that exact time? Coincidence? I think not. They haven't even scouted the map @ all, so they have no idea what kind of tech tree we have, but oh wait! they do, production tab hack, makes sense to me! Kid says muta, as we move out, obviously trying to cover up the fact they know what we're making? yep.
Conclusion: We could have probably won that game, but I rage quit when they built all those barracks at the exact time the baneling were morphing in, at that point I was just assuming we were at a disadvantage that's probably because I do not have any kind of hack on!!
You had a huge disadvantage, by then, what are you talking about?
At any rate, here are just some of the game that I played against them that really stick out, there are probably a lot more, when I was playing them not thinking that they cheat..
Conclusion overall: In these particular games, the only person who is obvious using cheats ( in my opinion ) is iGware. Going back to the fact that they swap account, based on the hotkeys it is save to assume that during each of these games, David Zhu is playing on Sorcery's account, and vice versa, as I do not think David Zhu is a hacker. Sorcery on the other hand is a full blown known hacker from DoTA so it would make a lot of sense that he would be cheating in starcraft 2.
If you think otherwise, that's fine. This is my perception and analysis of these games, and I think I'm pretty on point. But you can decide for yourself it's up to yoU!~!
- haCkProTech
I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscouted bases... things like that add up and make him look more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend. That said, I hate hackers, and would not support them if I believed they hacked.
On March 12 2011 11:28 ProTech wrote: First of all I would like to make this statement before creating this thread: I am in no way shape or form saying that these players are better or worse than me. I am simply making this thread because people of TL.net wanted some proof as to why I believe they are hacking. In this thread I will give you a in depth analysis as to why they are hacking, reasoning and game knowledge of 2v2 high level master league matches. I will let you decide for yourself whether or not they are hacking. I believe that they cheat, but people will have their own opinion, but as some of these replays will show that my suspicion can be backed up. Furthermore I would like some of you to get a better understanding of how myself and bandit play. It may look as if I am not really doing anything but I'm actually doing quite a bit, feeding and microing. This is the opening statement, as to not spew this thread with any bad manner, I am simply putting my point into perspective.
As mentioned before, iGware is not playing his 1v1 Ladder games, Sorcery ( Josh Price ) is playing on the account and conducting his cheese play. First assumption of some kind of cheating.
Secondly PinkPrincess (HelpImDying from thebgh.com admin) is saying that he does not like to play for money, but I'm sorry I simply do not buy it. If you are top 5 in the world playing for money is a huge motivator especially with all the time you invest into the game. Second assumption of cheating.
Finally, iGware backs down from a huge tournament stating that his car breaks down. The reality of this, is that it was simply a lie. Disqualification was at hand when Josh Price would show up to the LAN on David Zhu's account. There are three assumptions of cheating, the shit just does not add up. Now, for the replays.
Even if this is the case, sharing accounts is not equivalent to hacking.
First of all,at 7:10 notice the timing of blue's e-bay. I notice that the banshee is about half way done, but as soon as the cloak field starts to upgrade, he immediatly make an e-bay. Notice also at this point he still has not scouted the starport, an assumption like that is ridiculous.
Seriously? He saw the guy doing the hellion/banshee build. Why would it be surprising that the guy is going banshees? Your logic doesn't make much sense - you don't need to throw down an ebay anywhere near when cloak starts...
8:10 notice how he afk's his banshee, but then as soon as the command center goes down he kills the scvs. Obviously he doesnt enter the terran's base because he can see a viking being made.
I guess the afk banshee was a bit weird, but when he came back at 9:40ish, why wouldn't he go directly there? Seems an afk-ish banshee isn't much, especially since even assassinating the scv he runs a risk with viking...
He also goes raven that quick blindly? Please. He hasn't even scouted the starport yet. It's too much of an assumption with out scouting. 11:15, notice he micros the banshee, looks into the FoW and then opts to move that banshee to the back? LoL?
Yep, and then he sends it in at 11:45 and gets it promptly killed to the Vikings waiting there. Why would he do that if he was hacking to see whether it was safe at 11:15?
13:35 notice how he starts to set up for the attack, resetting rallies into his base, moving marines to the cliff that Namchir is about to attack, fishy? Of course it is. He's constantly setting up for attacks which he has no idea is about to come. Notice also how little he scouts, but why would you need to scout if you're hacking. I don't buy it, if you're top 10 in the ladder world wide, you're going to have better scouting tactics, like NamchiR constantly checking for expos. Yet iGware scouts nothing. 16 mins into to game he doesnt even see the fucking starport.
Yet he's still caught relatively flatfooted at 14:20
17:30, as little as he scouts already, watch how he control his dropship, he knows that hellion is there, there would have been no way for him to know what the way point of that hellion would be, so he opts to pull back at the exact time, to find out where it was going and get out of range effectively(OBVIOUSLY) Notice where he places the drop. You would think in TvT that would be a fucking awful place to drop with out scouting, it's a terran's mineral line, there normally would be turrets there, incase of banshee harass, yet he doesnt even fucking scan it to see if anything is there because if there were turrets there he would have been GG'd with that drop. 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
Conclusion: iGware showed off not only his production tab hack, but also his map hack.
Game 2: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out. He starts to move out, looks into the fog of war, then moves back to his base knowing that all those reinforcements are coming so he can't save his ally. He waits for the stragglers to move into the Z base, giving himself a huge window to move out. LoL?
I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation of events. He's hesitant to move out because he knows you guys have lots of speedlings running around. It's not like he needs a hack to know that two zergs who have been going 10 pool every game and from whom he's already SEEN lots of speedlings periodically in his ally's base have a lot of lings running around.
9:06 baneling nest goes down, probably looking @ the production tab. He opts to make that many bunkers @ his door @ that time, getting ready for the bane bust.
a) he doesn't need to make bunkers right as a baneling nest goes down. He could actually just wait until nearer the time considering it takes over double the time for banelings to actually hit him as compared to building a bunker. Arguably if he did use production tab hack, he'd wait until the baneling nest is about half done. b) knowing how much you love to baneling bust every game, are you surprised he throws down bunkers? He's playing a defensive game against players he feels he's better than (i.e., he's not super afraid of entering a macro game since you guys hurt your eco with your opening builds), and who are known for hyperaggressive all-inish play.
14:02, sorcery is microing the banshee, but he doesnt scout any of the tech structures so he has no reason to believe that baneling or anything else is coming out. 14:15, watch how he's attacking my base and pulls his marines to ramp RIGHT as the baneling are coming to the front door, he started moving them before he knew they were coming, yet he can prepare for them? lol..
Admittedly that move is one of the only moves I found a bit suspicious, but I don't think it proves much since he already saw a bunch of lings outside, and could be trying to respond to the fact that they were probably going to try to come up. 16:03 notice how he is sitting at his marine location waiting for those zerglings to come and attack. Notice how when lings are around his scvs he is always moving his marines and protecting his mineral line, even though the lings are obviously not going to his mineral line, but just in case!
Wait, what? It's pretty obvious that he's going to move his marines to guard his expansion as he takes it... The second part of your statement there doesn't really make sense to me
18:17 mass baneling moves out, we kill the overlord in the mid, take a different path, so he has no idea it's coming, yet he can make bunkers @ that time, and set up for the attack? 18:34, right as the units get at the front of his base he puts all his units into the crack and set up as best he can for the massive bust, coincidence / timing? No. Hacks.
And just leaves his tanks as suicide instead of actually using them to block the crack...? If he knew you were coming at that exact second, I'd think he could do a better job at blocking it.
Conclusion: Production tab hack / Map hack. There is simply no way he can sit there and setup for everything @ the exact right time the entire game, especially since he is not using any scans. In this game there are a bunch of fishy moves that make no sense, with out constantly scouting the map and not knowing whats coming, yet he sets up for everything and executes all the moves perfectly. I don't buy it. You're decision, this is what I think.
He didn't at all properly respond to Mutas at 17:30 (lost tech lab). If he was using production tab hack, wouldn't have have noticed mutas building, and guarded it?
Game 3: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
I would like to start this explanation by saying that this is probably the most obvious out of all the replays that I have. Here we go:
At 3:25, he looks at the lings, but only when they come into his ally's vision range. It seems like a decidedly non-hackerish thing to do
To star this game off, we have 10 pooled almost every game so it is safe to assume that we will be 10 pooling again, so his open is not hacking, it's just smart based on what we have been going. Also to make 3~4 bunkers incase of an early bane bust is a smart idea as well. However, as soon as the baneling nest goes down, watch the continuous mass of bunkers that are being produced.
You play this way every ZZ v ZT that goes beyond 10 pool from what I've seen, even down to sending out an extra queen to assassinate the scout overlord.
This is the first sign of hacking in this game, also notice that the zerg is going nothing but roaches, this is a complete and utter hard counter to our build this game. Notice how Sorcery has only one overlord hovering over our choke point, but that's it. They have no scouted our base @ all. Around 6:00 the baneling nest goes down, he continues to make bunkers, and pump roaches. Production tab hacking. We take a queen off the creep to kill that overlord in fear that he may scout the baneling nest, so now we have 6:56 they have literally not scouted anything on the map, so how can they know how to counter out build? Sac a fuckin lord bro, make it less obvious. 7:42 lings are coming in amass from purple, and the bunkers continue to be created, while roaches are beginning the mass. 8:23: 30 baneling morphs in, bunkers continue to make, as well as roaches to counter the massive pain they are about to feel. They have not scouted the map AT ALL THE ENTIRE GAME.
It's not like they could worker scout anyway. It's just playing ZT v ZZ without playing offensively
9:00 the baneling move out, they move their units in the perfect location to defend the attack.LoL? This is even before we get close to their base before they see whats coming. First attack is thwarted because of their perfect preparation even though they have no scouted the map at all, typical. Now after that first bust you would think, ok the two zergs know they are going mass bane ling so we will recreate our wall, that's a good assumption. However they have no scouted the map at all, so why are they not even afraid of anti air? They continue to hard counter baneling the whole time. 12:06, 30 more baneling morph in sorry 40! iGware sends out 4 scvs and look what he does as the baneling morph in. They jknow they don't have enough structures to counter 40 baneling so he sends out 4 scvs to create a huge wall, at that exact time? Coincidence? I think not. They haven't even scouted the map @ all, so they have no idea what kind of tech tree we have, but oh wait! they do, production tab hack, makes sense to me! Kid says muta, as we move out, obviously trying to cover up the fact they know what we're making? yep.
Conclusion: We could have probably won that game, but I rage quit when they built all those barracks at the exact time the baneling were morphing in, at that point I was just assuming we were at a disadvantage that's probably because I do not have any kind of hack on!!
You had a huge disadvantage, by then, what are you talking about?
At any rate, here are just some of the game that I played against them that really stick out, there are probably a lot more, when I was playing them not thinking that they cheat..
Conclusion overall: In these particular games, the only person who is obvious using cheats ( in my opinion ) is iGware. Going back to the fact that they swap account, based on the hotkeys it is save to assume that during each of these games, David Zhu is playing on Sorcery's account, and vice versa, as I do not think David Zhu is a hacker. Sorcery on the other hand is a full blown known hacker from DoTA so it would make a lot of sense that he would be cheating in starcraft 2.
If you think otherwise, that's fine. This is my perception and analysis of these games, and I think I'm pretty on point. But you can decide for yourself it's up to yoU!~!
- haCkProTech
I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.[/QUOTE]
I didn't even bother to read your post HelpImDying ( aka Peter admin of thebgh.com. )
The only reason that you are defending them is because you play with them. Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting. You can NOT explain everything with your logic.
Even in this post, as you can clearly see the majority of people agree with the accusations that I am making, these replays provide solid proof. You cannot explain the moves that this guys makes in ever game.
Furthermore, once a hacker, always a hacker unless you start to stream such as TT1. If you are considered of hacking / cheating why would you just not care? Especially at that hight of a level, you have a lot of attention drawn to you, so it would be wise for you to try and clear up your name.
I personally believe that if iGware puts up a stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I wrong and you were right. However I doubt that something like this would happen, as stated even before this thread, no one even knows of igware up until he hit the top of the ladder.
So it would be safe to say that, if he provides hard proof that he is not hacking i.e: a live stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I was wrong.
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
You do make a valid point, but what made me particularly suspicious were individual movements he made at specific moments rather than his general BO.
Let me ask you this: If you weren't their friends, would those replays still not look strange at all?
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
I should probably post some of the other games and show that your statement about how we play like a robot is a completely and utterly asinine statement. Knowing that we are going up against hackers we have now put it into our minds that we have to trick the production tab hack and literally waste minerals to make them think that we are going things that we are not. For example, a game on Tempest, he basically rushes to muta, but make no muta @ all, and yet they have no map control and no vision they throw up spores and turrets ready for it, we fooled them and made nothing of the sort, so they started to get confused, and that's why we won that game. We do not play like robots, and now we have to think of ways to trick their hack, it's really sad.
On March 12 2011 13:18 ProTech wrote: I didn't even bother to read your post HelpImDying ( aka Peter admin of thebgh.com. )
The only reason that you are defending them is because you play with them. Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting. You can NOT explain everything with your logic.
Even in this post, as you can clearly see the majority of people agree with the accusations that I am making, these replays provide solid proof. You cannot explain the moves that this guys makes in ever game.
Furthermore, once a hacker, always a hacker unless you start to stream such as TT1. If you are considered of hacking / cheating why would you just not care? Especially at that hight of a level, you have a lot of attention drawn to you, so it would be wise for you to try and clear up your name.
I personally believe that if iGware puts up a stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I wrong and you were right. However I doubt that something like this would happen, as stated even before this thread, no one even knows of igware up until he hit the top of the ladder.
So it would be safe to say that, if he provides hard proof that he is not hacking i.e: a live stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I was wrong.
First of all, I'm not sure why you keep trumpeting who I am? I don't see its relevance, nor have I ever denied it in this thread.
Secondly, if you even admit to not having bothered reading my post, then how would you be able to state "you can NOT explain everything with your logic" - you wouldn't know if I had managed to or not, right?
Thirdly with regards to why I defend them, I already admitted to being their friend:
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend
However, I wouldn't defend them if I believed your accusations.
Presumably he doesn't care about your accusations because it makes literally no difference to his playing whether you believe he hacks or not, Protech.
I and some others already posted why most of what you said is not suspicious, and unfortunately a lot of people here who view the replays are not going to know how many times they've played you (and how they know what you're going to do because you always do it every game).
The game-3 barracks wall when your morphing 35 banelings is just goofy obvious. Also, why wouldn't either of them scout the entire game? No scans, no overlords, no nothing? 13 minute game and terran makes absolutely 0 prep for mutas? No tech until ~10 minutes, just massive walling?
EPT
