First of all I would like to make this statement before creating this thread: I am in no way shape or form saying that these players are better or worse than me. I am simply making this thread because people of TL.net wanted some proof as to why I believe they are hacking. In this thread I will give you a in depth analysis as to why they are hacking, reasoning and game knowledge of 2v2 high level master league matches. I will let you decide for yourself whether or not they are hacking. I believe that they cheat, but people will have their own opinion, but as some of these replays will show that my suspicion can be backed up. Furthermore I would like some of you to get a better understanding of how myself and bandit play. It may look as if I am not really doing anything but I'm actually doing quite a bit, feeding and microing. This is the opening statement, as to not spew this thread with any bad manner, I am simply putting my point into perspective.
As mentioned before, iGware is not playing his 1v1 Ladder games, Sorcery ( Josh Price ) is playing on the account and conducting his cheese play. First assumption of some kind of cheating. Secondly PinkPrincess (HelpImDying from thebgh.com admin) is saying that he does not like to play for money, but I'm sorry I simply do not buy it. If you are top 5 in the world playing for money is a huge motivator especially with all the time you invest into the game. Second assumption of cheating. Finally, iGware backs down from a huge tournament stating that his car breaks down. The reality of this, is that it was simply a lie. Disqualification was at hand when Josh Price would show up to the LAN on David Zhu's account. There are three assumptions of cheating, the shit just does not add up. Now, for the replays.
First of all,at 7:10 notice the timing of blue's e-bay. I notice that the banshee is about half way done, but as soon as the cloak field starts to upgrade, he immediatly make an e-bay. Notice also at this point he still has not scouted the starport, an assumption like that is ridiculous. 8:10 notice how he afk's his banshee, but then as soon as the command center goes down he kills the scvs. Obviously he doesnt enter the terran's base because he can see a viking being made. He also goes raven that quick blindly? Please. He hasn't even scouted the starport yet. It's too much of an assumption with out scouting. 11:15, notice he micros the banshee, looks into the FoW and then opts to move that banshee to the back? LoL? 13:35 notice how he starts to set up for the attack, resetting rallies into his base, moving marines to the cliff that Namchir is about to attack, fishy? Of course it is. He's constantly setting up for attacks which he has no idea is about to come. Notice also how little he scouts, but why would you need to scout if you're hacking. I don't buy it, if you're top 10 in the ladder world wide, you're going to have better scouting tactics, like NamchiR constantly checking for expos. Yet iGware scouts nothing. 16 mins into to game he doesnt even see the fucking starport. 17:30, as little as he scouts already, watch how he control his dropship, he knows that hellion is there, there would have been no way for him to know what the way point of that hellion would be, so he opts to pull back at the exact time, to find out where it was going and get out of range effectively(OBVIOUSLY) Notice where he places the drop. You would think in TvT that would be a fucking awful place to drop with out scouting, it's a terran's mineral line, there normally would be turrets there, incase of banshee harass, yet he doesnt even fucking scan it to see if anything is there because if there were turrets there he would have been GG'd with that drop. 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
Conclusion: iGware showed off not only his production tab hack, but also his map hack.
Game 2: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out. He starts to move out, looks into the fog of war, then moves back to his base knowing that all those reinforcements are coming so he can't save his ally. He waits for the stragglers to move into the Z base, giving himself a huge window to move out. LoL? 9:06 baneling nest goes down, probably looking @ the production tab. He opts to make that many bunkers @ his door @ that time, getting ready for the bane bust. 14:02, sorcery is microing the banshee, but he doesnt scout any of the tech structures so he has no reason to believe that baneling or anything else is coming out. 14:15, watch how he's attacking my base and pulls his marines to ramp RIGHT as the baneling are coming to the front door, he started moving them before he knew they were coming, yet he can prepare for them? lol.. 16:03 notice how he is sitting at his marine location waiting for those zerglings to come and attack. Notice how when lings are around his scvs he is always moving his marines and protecting his mineral line, even though the lings are obviously not going to his mineral line, but just in case! 18:17 mass baneling moves out, we kill the overlord in the mid, take a different path, so he has no idea it's coming, yet he can make bunkers @ that time, and set up for the attack? 18:34, right as the units get at the front of his base he puts all his units into the crack and set up as best he can for the massive bust, coincidence / timing? No. Hacks.
Conclusion: Production tab hack / Map hack. There is simply no way he can sit there and setup for everything @ the exact right time the entire game, especially since he is not using any scans. In this game there are a bunch of fishy moves that make no sense, with out constantly scouting the map and not knowing whats coming, yet he sets up for everything and executes all the moves perfectly. I don't buy it. You're decision, this is what I think.
Game 3: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
To star this game off, we have 10 pooled almost every game so it is safe to assume that we will be 10 pooling again, so his open is not hacking, it's just smart based on what we have been going. Also to make 3~4 bunkers incase of an early bane bust is a smart idea as well. However, as soon as the baneling nest goes down, watch the continuous mass of bunkers that are being produced. This is the first sign of hacking in this game, also notice that the zerg is going nothing but roaches, this is a complete and utter hard counter to our build this game. Notice how Sorcery has only one overlord hovering over our choke point, but that's it. They have no scouted our base @ all. Around 6:00 the baneling nest goes down, he continues to make bunkers, and pump roaches. Production tab hacking. We take a queen off the creep to kill that overlord in fear that he may scout the baneling nest, so now we have 6:56 they have literally not scouted anything on the map, so how can they know how to counter out build? Sac a fuckin lord bro, make it less obvious. 7:42 lings are coming in amass from purple, and the bunkers continue to be created, while roaches are beginning the mass. 8:23: 30 baneling morphs in, bunkers continue to make, as well as roaches to counter the massive pain they are about to feel. They have not scouted the map AT ALL THE ENTIRE GAME. 9:00 the baneling move out, they move their units in the perfect location to defend the attack.LoL? This is even before we get close to their base before they see whats coming. First attack is thwarted because of their perfect preparation even though they have no scouted the map at all, typical. Now after that first bust you would think, ok the two zergs know they are going mass bane ling so we will recreate our wall, that's a good assumption. However they have no scouted the map at all, so why are they not even afraid of anti air? They continue to hard counter baneling the whole time. 12:06, 30 more baneling morph in sorry 40! iGware sends out 4 scvs and look what he does as the baneling morph in. They jknow they don't have enough structures to counter 40 baneling so he sends out 4 scvs to create a huge wall, at that exact time? Coincidence? I think not. They haven't even scouted the map @ all, so they have no idea what kind of tech tree we have, but oh wait! they do, production tab hack, makes sense to me! Kid says muta, as we move out, obviously trying to cover up the fact they know what we're making? yep.
Conclusion: We could have probably won that game, but I rage quit when they built all those barracks at the exact time the baneling were morphing in, at that point I was just assuming we were at a disadvantage that's probably because I do not have any kind of hack on!!
At any rate, here are just some of the game that I played against them that really stick out, there are probably a lot more, when I was playing them not thinking that they cheat..
Conclusion overall: In these particular games, the only person who is obvious using cheats ( in my opinion ) is iGware. Going back to the fact that they swap account, based on the hotkeys it is save to assume that during each of these games, David Zhu is playing on Sorcery's account, and vice versa, as I do not think David Zhu is a hacker. Sorcery on the other hand is a full blown known hacker from DoTA so it would make a lot of sense that he would be cheating in starcraft 2.
If you think otherwise, that's fine. This is my perception and analysis of these games, and I think I'm pretty on point. But you can decide for yourself it's up to yoU!~!
- haCkProTech
EDIT: I'm adding this because I know there are people who will read the OP and jump to page 21 not reading anything else:
On March 12 2011 19:58 Sorcery wrote: Hello,
This is Josh Price (Sorcery on sc2). After talking
with many of my friends, I wanted to be upfront with
the sc2 community that it was indeed me on iGware
playing the solo games that brought it to rank 1 NA.
And, yes I was using maphack in some of those games.
Sometime in February, David Zhu (iGware) approached me
with a maphack program and told me it would be fun to
use in sc2. We started to use maphack in some team
games. David agreed to use his account as the
maphacking one, and I had no problem with this because
I did not want to risk my own account being banned.
Just to reiterate, I have never hacked on Sorcery... the account is "pure" and clean of hack.
Then, David urged me to raise his 1v1 ladder stats as high as possible with the
maphack. So, once again, thinking it would be fun, I
used maphack on his account and soloed until it was at
the top ranks in the world and tried to win as fast as possible using various cheeses.
Although I have never hacked on my main account
(Sorcery), I know I should not have hacked on my
friend's account even if it was not my own. I got too
caught up in moment and played for him because he's my
friend. I should have resisted my friend's tempting
reasons for using the hack and played fairly. Despite
many of my friends trying to convince me to stop, it
took me this long to finally come forth and I am
sorry. From hereforth, I swear for whatever it still
means, that I will not hack again.
Sorry to all the people I lied to keep this a secret.
-Josh Price .
User was banned for this post.
EDIT:
Alright guys 1 day after he said he would stop cheating, he's at it again! Here's the proof!
All right! So the game starts off pretty normal, Terran and Protoss block their wall, Sorcery doing some retarded ass shit with his cannon rush(who's knows what that's all about.)
So you will notice that the cannon rush is thwarted 5:46 the nydus network goes down. Dxt sends his marine back from the ramp, but he notices my nydus network on his production tab and or map hack, and then goes into a panic trying to kill that overlord, meanwhile sorcery is doing the same exact thing. AT THAT EXACT TIME (ROFL?)
7:14 17 bane lings morph in, and the protoss starts spamming sentries even though they haven't scouted the bane ling nest.
7:18 baneling move out, notice their path in which they are taking, and watch the sentries @ the same time. The baneling are walking toward the terran, so what does Sorcery do? BAFL he moves the sentries to DxT's base!
7:30 Baneling stop their movement, and then switch to the protoss door as we scout the front and notice that there are not ANY sentries there, but look what he does! HE HAS NO VISION OF THE FUCKING BANELING YET HE CAN SET UP FOR THE ATTACK AS THEY MOVE TO HIS FRONT DOOR!!!!
I also played a bunch of games, and it seemed more like he was doing luck-based builds rather than hacking (he would have countered some of my BOs pretty well, although there were definitely some suspicious moments, i.e making about 6 bunkers vs a bling bust without scouting anything...)
On March 12 2011 11:35 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: I asked him he said no. I believe him.
I also played a bunch of games, and it seemed more like he was doing luck-based builds rather than hacking (he would have countered some of my BOs pretty well, although there were definitely some suspicious moments, i.e making about 6 bunkers vs a bling bust without scouting anything...)
I've been pretty curious how iGware got so high on the 1v1 ladder (was #1 NA yesterday) so quickly, even though he seemed pretty good mechanically in 2v2 when we played him. I didn't get the sense of maphack back then, but maybe it's just the super early play that is typical of 2v2.
On March 12 2011 11:37 zSoloo wrote: Seems like if you ask someone if they are doing something wrong in this case hacking, the answer 100% of the time is going to be no...
never-the-less interesting replays.
if he says he's honest, this means he is he must be!
On March 12 2011 11:45 Naslmaster wrote: --- Nuked ---
Well done, that was lightning quick.
Re: OP, the replays are definitely interesting. I won't scream obvious hacks, but he didn't play like a typical top player, more like a diamond with extremely uncanny intuition.
Quote removed.
Join date Feb 10th... just prior to his meteoric rise to the top. Honestly who has the exact name and capitalizes it the exact same way on a hacking forum...
On March 12 2011 11:45 Naslmaster wrote: --- Nuked ---
Thank god i copied that as a TL memory of old
On topic, ye the plot thinckens indeed, I really dont like what hacking does for the e-sports community, hopefully the guilty get banned, but thats not always the case :/
I've watched yhe first replay and there is absolutely no sign of him hacking. And you won that game ! whats wrong with you ? your hidden expo was not discovered for nearly 10 minutes, he was surprise and out of postion on most of your drops. I've watched the game from his point of view, and that was a standard game that he lost.... Why suspecting him of cheating ?
I don't think you guys understand how a hacker thinks. You can't make everything obvious, this is the same as in brood war, which is why TT1 was never caught, and eventually he was caught. This will the exact same case, I have never been wrong on my intuition of a hacker.
It's fairly obvious that he's a hacker from watching those replays.
It's nice that Blizzard gave the perspective cam to us in SC2 so that we know exactly where a player is looking at any point in time during a game. Likely ban incoming for this clown
On March 12 2011 11:56 Looky wrote: why is blizzard so bad and creating anti hack. even iccup stopped most of it.
yea... they like collecting a bunch of information and accounts and do ban waves, but this causes a burst of hacking in between waves (like what we are seeing now)
On March 12 2011 11:57 Diks wrote: I've watched yhe first replay and there is absolutely no sign of him hacking.
Then you weren't watching closely enough. There are multiple times where he looks into the Fog of War (note: he has no legitimate vision) and changes his decisions based on what he sees.
On March 12 2011 12:00 ProTech wrote: I don't think you guys understand how a hacker thinks. You can't make everything obvious, this is the same as in brood war, which is why TT1 was never caught, and eventually he was caught. This will the exact same case, I have never been wrong on my intuition of a hacker.
If only your grammar was as 1337 hackarh good as your intuition...
Seriously though, who cares? If he hacks during ladder play, good for him. Add to hacker database and be done with it. He'll get what's coming. There really isn't a need for so much speculation over some person who just might be good at the game. Maybe it's a smurf account for all it's worth. Who knows?
On March 12 2011 12:00 ProTech wrote: I don't think you guys understand how a hacker thinks. You can't make everything obvious, this is the same as in brood war, which is why TT1 was never caught, and eventually he was caught. This will the exact same case, I have never been wrong on my intuition of a hacker.
If only your grammar was as 1337 hackarh good as your intuition...
Seriously though, who cares? If he hacks during ladder play, good for him. Add to hacker database and be done with it. He'll get what's coming. There really isn't a need for so much speculation over some person who just might be good at the game. Maybe it's a smurf account for all it's worth. Who knows?
Sorry, I tend to make typos when I type and play same time ^_^.
At any rate if this was just some random player obviously I could care less, however this is a guy we're talking top 5 not only in america, but in the WORLD. So I just assumed it would be a good idea to burn him so that he does not get the recognition as top players are supposed to, and how TL.net feels about hackers this seemed like a good thread to throw down.
Seems hilariously obvious in the last replay of the 2v2 game. The baneling nest goes down. He looks at the base, sees it, and makes a great wall of china out of buildings while his partner pumps roaches. It's an incredibly specific series of actions which counters what you were doing completely.
This looks pretty damning to me. Couple that with the recent membership to a site that apparently distributes hacks, and he not only put himself to shame, but his entire team as well.
@ The guy who said that he made 6 bunkers in response to an un-scouted bling bust: how the hell is that not cheating. I've never seen a build where you're supposed to drop 6 bunkers at the same time. Lol.
On March 12 2011 12:23 wonderwall wrote: Seems hilariously obvious in the last replay of the 2v2 game. The baneling nest goes down. He looks at the base, sees it, and makes a great wall of china out of buildings while his opponent pumps roaches. It's an incredibly specific series of actions which counters what you were doing completely.
I literally rofl'd at your adjectives, nice post brah. ROFL
I just watched the first replay, the 1v1. Saw no sign of hacking and you plain out beat him anyway. Never glanced through fog, never was prepared for your drops or harass. I didn't see the problem there.
On March 12 2011 12:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Sorry but how about you let Blizzard decide?
Although I'll read anyways cus hacking is interesting xD (not that i support it).
Blizzard hasn't exactly been on top of things, I do understand that they are trying to make their case against zynastor and relinquish the hackers is a timely process, but I think the people should know who the real hackers are.
On March 12 2011 11:56 Looky wrote: why is blizzard so bad and creating anti hack. even iccup stopped most of it.
yea... they like collecting a bunch of information and accounts and do ban waves, but this causes a burst of hacking in between waves (like what we are seeing now)
Which is why the policy of banning hackers as the programs are detected will always be better.
Their excuses about hackers being able to figure out how to hide their cheat programs are dumb in comparison to the damage done by people rampantly hacking until huge ban waves that are few and far between.
Sorcery was a well known hacker in DotA. Same thing, he would join teams, play in online events, never go to LANs. Eventually he was exiled from the community and i would sincerely doubt it just happens to be the exact same stuff (always prepared without having the information, never being surprised, etc.), absolutely not a coincidence.
On the one hand, this is interesting because he's a top ranked player and the replays are quite suggestive.
On the other hand, this is turning into a witchhunt, and on top of it there is a thread for hackers already, so I'm anticipating it will get closed like the other igware thread.
On March 12 2011 12:39 TommyLove wrote: help i'm so confused. who is hacking? igware or sorcery? could it be one incredible player that plays on two accounts?
Hokay here's a little better explanation:
David Zhu on real ID friend list = iGware
Josh Price on real ID friend list = Sorcery
iGware is top 5 1v1 in the world.
Sorcery is playing on iGware's account.
So it is safe to assume that it is not David Zhu hacking, but Josh Price
On March 12 2011 12:43 caradoc wrote: On the one hand, this is interesting because he's a top ranked player and the replays are quite suggestive.
On the other hand, this is turning into a witchhunt, and on top of it there is a thread for hackers already, so I'm anticipating it will get closed like the other igware thread.
The witch hunt aspect is a bit disturbing, but given the circumstances of this case, I think it would be best if Blizzard were to check (I assume they actually try to detect hackers), because he was #1 on their top 200 last week. You just can't have a hacker be there like that, it's no good for the game.
I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_<
On March 12 2011 12:39 TommyLove wrote: help i'm so confused. who is hacking? igware or sorcery? could it be one incredible player that plays on two accounts?
Hokay here's a little better explanation:
David Zhu on real ID friend list = iGware
Josh Price on real ID friend list = Sorcery
iGware is top 5 1v1 in the world.
Sorcery is playing on iGware's account.
So it is safe to assume that it is not David Zhu hacking, but Josh Price
wow josh price is amazing. is he going to win the GSL soon?
On March 12 2011 12:43 caradoc wrote: On the one hand, this is interesting because he's a top ranked player and the replays are quite suggestive.
On the other hand, this is turning into a witchhunt, and on top of it there is a thread for hackers already, so I'm anticipating it will get closed like the other igware thread.
The witch hunt aspect is a bit disturbing, but given the circumstances of this case, I think it would be best if Blizzard were to check (I assume they actually try to detect hackers), because he was #1 on their top 200 last week. You just can't have a hacker be there like that, it's no good for the game.
Essentially this. I don't care at all if someone takes a few points from me on ladder... It's blizzard's job to catch and prevent hackers, if they do it vs me all it means is some good practice against tough odds. I've never played anyone I knew was a hacker in SC2, so maybe I'm just naiive but
As I said before, I thought it was somewhat suspicious play, but we did play about ~10 games and while there were some suspicious actions it can be difficult to know exactly what your opponent scouted.
On March 12 2011 12:43 caradoc wrote: On the one hand, this is interesting because he's a top ranked player and the replays are quite suggestive.
On the other hand, this is turning into a witchhunt, and on top of it there is a thread for hackers already, so I'm anticipating it will get closed like the other igware thread.
The witch hunt aspect is a bit disturbing, but given the circumstances of this case, I think it would be best if Blizzard were to check (I assume they actually try to detect hackers), because he was #1 on their top 200 last week. You just can't have a hacker be there like that, it's no good for the game.
Essentially this. I don't care at all if someone takes a few points from me on ladder... It's blizzard's job to catch and prevent hackers, if they do it vs me all it means is some good practice against tough odds. I've never played anyone I knew was a hacker in SC2, so maybe I'm just naiive but
As I said before, I thought it was somewhat suspicious play, but we did play about ~10 games and while there were some suspicious actions it can be difficult to know exactly what your opponent scouted.
Replay camera mode brah. If you watch closely, as I did to write that explanation, you can clearly see what he does is very very very suspicious.
I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend. That said, I hate hackers, and would not support them if I believed they hacked.
On March 12 2011 11:28 ProTech wrote: First of all I would like to make this statement before creating this thread: I am in no way shape or form saying that these players are better or worse than me. I am simply making this thread because people of TL.net wanted some proof as to why I believe they are hacking. In this thread I will give you a in depth analysis as to why they are hacking, reasoning and game knowledge of 2v2 high level master league matches. I will let you decide for yourself whether or not they are hacking. I believe that they cheat, but people will have their own opinion, but as some of these replays will show that my suspicion can be backed up. Furthermore I would like some of you to get a better understanding of how myself and bandit play. It may look as if I am not really doing anything but I'm actually doing quite a bit, feeding and microing. This is the opening statement, as to not spew this thread with any bad manner, I am simply putting my point into perspective.
As mentioned before, iGware is not playing his 1v1 Ladder games, Sorcery ( Josh Price ) is playing on the account and conducting his cheese play. First assumption of some kind of cheating.
Why does cheesing ==> cheating?
Secondly PinkPrincess (HelpImDying from thebgh.com admin) is saying that he does not like to play for money, but I'm sorry I simply do not buy it. If you are top 5 in the world playing for money is a huge motivator especially with all the time you invest into the game. Second assumption of cheating.
I even said later in the thread that he said he's played several tournaments.
Finally, iGware backs down from a huge tournament stating that his car breaks down. The reality of this, is that it was simply a lie. Disqualification was at hand when Josh Price would show up to the LAN on David Zhu's account. There are three assumptions of cheating, the shit just does not add up. Now, for the replays.
Even if this is the case, sharing accounts is not equivalent to hacking.
First of all,at 7:10 notice the timing of blue's e-bay. I notice that the banshee is about half way done, but as soon as the cloak field starts to upgrade, he immediatly make an e-bay. Notice also at this point he still has not scouted the starport, an assumption like that is ridiculous.
Seriously? He saw the guy doing the hellion/banshee build. Why would it be surprising that the guy is going banshees? Your logic doesn't make much sense - you don't need to throw down an ebay anywhere near when cloak starts...
8:10 notice how he afk's his banshee, but then as soon as the command center goes down he kills the scvs. Obviously he doesnt enter the terran's base because he can see a viking being made.
I guess the afk banshee was a bit weird, but when he came back at 9:40ish, why wouldn't he go directly there? Seems an afk-ish banshee isn't much, especially since even assassinating the scv he runs a risk with viking...
He also goes raven that quick blindly? Please. He hasn't even scouted the starport yet. It's too much of an assumption with out scouting. 11:15, notice he micros the banshee, looks into the FoW and then opts to move that banshee to the back? LoL?
Yep, and then he sends it in at 11:45 and gets it promptly killed to the Vikings waiting there. Why would he do that if he was hacking to see whether it was safe at 11:15?
13:35 notice how he starts to set up for the attack, resetting rallies into his base, moving marines to the cliff that Namchir is about to attack, fishy? Of course it is. He's constantly setting up for attacks which he has no idea is about to come. Notice also how little he scouts, but why would you need to scout if you're hacking. I don't buy it, if you're top 10 in the ladder world wide, you're going to have better scouting tactics, like NamchiR constantly checking for expos. Yet iGware scouts nothing. 16 mins into to game he doesnt even see the fucking starport.
Yet he's still caught relatively flatfooted at 14:20
17:30, as little as he scouts already, watch how he control his dropship, he knows that hellion is there, there would have been no way for him to know what the way point of that hellion would be, so he opts to pull back at the exact time, to find out where it was going and get out of range effectively(OBVIOUSLY) Notice where he places the drop. You would think in TvT that would be a fucking awful place to drop with out scouting, it's a terran's mineral line, there normally would be turrets there, incase of banshee harass, yet he doesnt even fucking scan it to see if anything is there because if there were turrets there he would have been GG'd with that drop. 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
Conclusion: iGware showed off not only his production tab hack, but also his map hack.
Game 2: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
If he has production tab hack, why would he periodically look at his ally's base early on by the way?
For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out. He starts to move out, looks into the fog of war, then moves back to his base knowing that all those reinforcements are coming so he can't save his ally. He waits for the stragglers to move into the Z base, giving himself a huge window to move out. LoL?
I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation of events. He's hesitant to move out because he knows you guys have lots of speedlings running around. It's not like he needs a hack to know that two zergs who have been going 10 pool every game and from whom he's already SEEN lots of speedlings periodically in his ally's base have a lot of lings running around.
9:06 baneling nest goes down, probably looking @ the production tab. He opts to make that many bunkers @ his door @ that time, getting ready for the bane bust.
a) he doesn't need to make bunkers right as a baneling nest goes down. He could actually just wait until nearer the time considering it takes over double the time for banelings to actually hit him as compared to building a bunker. Arguably if he did use production tab hack, he'd wait until the baneling nest is about half done. b) knowing how much you love to baneling bust every game, are you surprised he throws down bunkers? He's playing a defensive game against players he feels he's better than (i.e., he's not super afraid of entering a macro game since you guys hurt your eco with your opening builds), and who are known for hyperaggressive all-inish play.
14:02, sorcery is microing the banshee, but he doesnt scout any of the tech structures so he has no reason to believe that baneling or anything else is coming out. 14:15, watch how he's attacking my base and pulls his marines to ramp RIGHT as the baneling are coming to the front door, he started moving them before he knew they were coming, yet he can prepare for them? lol..
Admittedly that move is one of the only moves I found a bit suspicious, but I don't think it proves much since he already saw a bunch of lings outside, and could be trying to respond to the fact that they were probably going to try to come up. 16:03 notice how he is sitting at his marine location waiting for those zerglings to come and attack. Notice how when lings are around his scvs he is always moving his marines and protecting his mineral line, even though the lings are obviously not going to his mineral line, but just in case![/quote]Wait, what? It's pretty obvious that he's going to move his marines to guard his expansion as he takes it... The second part of your statement there doesn't really make sense to me
18:17 mass baneling moves out, we kill the overlord in the mid, take a different path, so he has no idea it's coming, yet he can make bunkers @ that time, and set up for the attack? 18:34, right as the units get at the front of his base he puts all his units into the crack and set up as best he can for the massive bust, coincidence / timing? No. Hacks.
And just leaves his tanks as suicide instead of actually using them to block the crack...? If he knew you were coming at that exact second, I'd think he could do a better job at blocking it.
Conclusion: Production tab hack / Map hack. There is simply no way he can sit there and setup for everything @ the exact right time the entire game, especially since he is not using any scans. In this game there are a bunch of fishy moves that make no sense, with out constantly scouting the map and not knowing whats coming, yet he sets up for everything and executes all the moves perfectly. I don't buy it. You're decision, this is what I think.
He didn't at all properly respond to Mutas at 17:30 (lost tech lab). If he was using production tab hack, wouldn't have have noticed mutas building, and guarded it?
Game 3: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
I would like to start this explanation by saying that this is probably the most obvious out of all the replays that I have. Here we go:
At 3:25, he looks at the lings, but only when they come into his ally's vision range. It seems like a decidedly non-hackerish thing to do
To star this game off, we have 10 pooled almost every game so it is safe to assume that we will be 10 pooling again, so his open is not hacking, it's just smart based on what we have been going. Also to make 3~4 bunkers incase of an early bane bust is a smart idea as well. However, as soon as the baneling nest goes down, watch the continuous mass of bunkers that are being produced.
You play this way every ZZ v ZT that goes beyond 10 pool from what I've seen, even down to sending out an extra queen to assassinate the scout overlord.
This is the first sign of hacking in this game, also notice that the zerg is going nothing but roaches, this is a complete and utter hard counter to our build this game. Notice how Sorcery has only one overlord hovering over our choke point, but that's it. They have no scouted our base @ all. Around 6:00 the baneling nest goes down, he continues to make bunkers, and pump roaches. Production tab hacking. We take a queen off the creep to kill that overlord in fear that he may scout the baneling nest, so now we have 6:56 they have literally not scouted anything on the map, so how can they know how to counter out build? Sac a fuckin lord bro, make it less obvious. 7:42 lings are coming in amass from purple, and the bunkers continue to be created, while roaches are beginning the mass. 8:23: 30 baneling morphs in, bunkers continue to make, as well as roaches to counter the massive pain they are about to feel. They have not scouted the map AT ALL THE ENTIRE GAME.
It's not like they could worker scout anyway. It's just playing ZT v ZZ without playing offensively
9:00 the baneling move out, they move their units in the perfect location to defend the attack.LoL? This is even before we get close to their base before they see whats coming. First attack is thwarted because of their perfect preparation even though they have no scouted the map at all, typical. Now after that first bust you would think, ok the two zergs know they are going mass bane ling so we will recreate our wall, that's a good assumption. However they have no scouted the map at all, so why are they not even afraid of anti air? They continue to hard counter baneling the whole time. 12:06, 30 more baneling morph in sorry 40! iGware sends out 4 scvs and look what he does as the baneling morph in. They jknow they don't have enough structures to counter 40 baneling so he sends out 4 scvs to create a huge wall, at that exact time? Coincidence? I think not. They haven't even scouted the map @ all, so they have no idea what kind of tech tree we have, but oh wait! they do, production tab hack, makes sense to me! Kid says muta, as we move out, obviously trying to cover up the fact they know what we're making? yep.
Conclusion: We could have probably won that game, but I rage quit when they built all those barracks at the exact time the baneling were morphing in, at that point I was just assuming we were at a disadvantage that's probably because I do not have any kind of hack on!!
You had a huge disadvantage, by then, what are you talking about?
At any rate, here are just some of the game that I played against them that really stick out, there are probably a lot more, when I was playing them not thinking that they cheat..
Conclusion overall: In these particular games, the only person who is obvious using cheats ( in my opinion ) is iGware. Going back to the fact that they swap account, based on the hotkeys it is save to assume that during each of these games, David Zhu is playing on Sorcery's account, and vice versa, as I do not think David Zhu is a hacker. Sorcery on the other hand is a full blown known hacker from DoTA so it would make a lot of sense that he would be cheating in starcraft 2.
If you think otherwise, that's fine. This is my perception and analysis of these games, and I think I'm pretty on point. But you can decide for yourself it's up to yoU!~!
- haCkProTech
I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscouted bases... things like that add up and make him look more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend. That said, I hate hackers, and would not support them if I believed they hacked.
On March 12 2011 11:28 ProTech wrote: First of all I would like to make this statement before creating this thread: I am in no way shape or form saying that these players are better or worse than me. I am simply making this thread because people of TL.net wanted some proof as to why I believe they are hacking. In this thread I will give you a in depth analysis as to why they are hacking, reasoning and game knowledge of 2v2 high level master league matches. I will let you decide for yourself whether or not they are hacking. I believe that they cheat, but people will have their own opinion, but as some of these replays will show that my suspicion can be backed up. Furthermore I would like some of you to get a better understanding of how myself and bandit play. It may look as if I am not really doing anything but I'm actually doing quite a bit, feeding and microing. This is the opening statement, as to not spew this thread with any bad manner, I am simply putting my point into perspective.
As mentioned before, iGware is not playing his 1v1 Ladder games, Sorcery ( Josh Price ) is playing on the account and conducting his cheese play. First assumption of some kind of cheating.
Secondly PinkPrincess (HelpImDying from thebgh.com admin) is saying that he does not like to play for money, but I'm sorry I simply do not buy it. If you are top 5 in the world playing for money is a huge motivator especially with all the time you invest into the game. Second assumption of cheating.
Finally, iGware backs down from a huge tournament stating that his car breaks down. The reality of this, is that it was simply a lie. Disqualification was at hand when Josh Price would show up to the LAN on David Zhu's account. There are three assumptions of cheating, the shit just does not add up. Now, for the replays.
Even if this is the case, sharing accounts is not equivalent to hacking.
First of all,at 7:10 notice the timing of blue's e-bay. I notice that the banshee is about half way done, but as soon as the cloak field starts to upgrade, he immediatly make an e-bay. Notice also at this point he still has not scouted the starport, an assumption like that is ridiculous.
Seriously? He saw the guy doing the hellion/banshee build. Why would it be surprising that the guy is going banshees? Your logic doesn't make much sense - you don't need to throw down an ebay anywhere near when cloak starts...
8:10 notice how he afk's his banshee, but then as soon as the command center goes down he kills the scvs. Obviously he doesnt enter the terran's base because he can see a viking being made.
I guess the afk banshee was a bit weird, but when he came back at 9:40ish, why wouldn't he go directly there? Seems an afk-ish banshee isn't much, especially since even assassinating the scv he runs a risk with viking...
He also goes raven that quick blindly? Please. He hasn't even scouted the starport yet. It's too much of an assumption with out scouting. 11:15, notice he micros the banshee, looks into the FoW and then opts to move that banshee to the back? LoL?
Yep, and then he sends it in at 11:45 and gets it promptly killed to the Vikings waiting there. Why would he do that if he was hacking to see whether it was safe at 11:15?
13:35 notice how he starts to set up for the attack, resetting rallies into his base, moving marines to the cliff that Namchir is about to attack, fishy? Of course it is. He's constantly setting up for attacks which he has no idea is about to come. Notice also how little he scouts, but why would you need to scout if you're hacking. I don't buy it, if you're top 10 in the ladder world wide, you're going to have better scouting tactics, like NamchiR constantly checking for expos. Yet iGware scouts nothing. 16 mins into to game he doesnt even see the fucking starport.
Yet he's still caught relatively flatfooted at 14:20
17:30, as little as he scouts already, watch how he control his dropship, he knows that hellion is there, there would have been no way for him to know what the way point of that hellion would be, so he opts to pull back at the exact time, to find out where it was going and get out of range effectively(OBVIOUSLY) Notice where he places the drop. You would think in TvT that would be a fucking awful place to drop with out scouting, it's a terran's mineral line, there normally would be turrets there, incase of banshee harass, yet he doesnt even fucking scan it to see if anything is there because if there were turrets there he would have been GG'd with that drop. 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
Conclusion: iGware showed off not only his production tab hack, but also his map hack.
Game 2: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out. He starts to move out, looks into the fog of war, then moves back to his base knowing that all those reinforcements are coming so he can't save his ally. He waits for the stragglers to move into the Z base, giving himself a huge window to move out. LoL?
I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation of events. He's hesitant to move out because he knows you guys have lots of speedlings running around. It's not like he needs a hack to know that two zergs who have been going 10 pool every game and from whom he's already SEEN lots of speedlings periodically in his ally's base have a lot of lings running around.
9:06 baneling nest goes down, probably looking @ the production tab. He opts to make that many bunkers @ his door @ that time, getting ready for the bane bust.
a) he doesn't need to make bunkers right as a baneling nest goes down. He could actually just wait until nearer the time considering it takes over double the time for banelings to actually hit him as compared to building a bunker. Arguably if he did use production tab hack, he'd wait until the baneling nest is about half done. b) knowing how much you love to baneling bust every game, are you surprised he throws down bunkers? He's playing a defensive game against players he feels he's better than (i.e., he's not super afraid of entering a macro game since you guys hurt your eco with your opening builds), and who are known for hyperaggressive all-inish play.
14:02, sorcery is microing the banshee, but he doesnt scout any of the tech structures so he has no reason to believe that baneling or anything else is coming out. 14:15, watch how he's attacking my base and pulls his marines to ramp RIGHT as the baneling are coming to the front door, he started moving them before he knew they were coming, yet he can prepare for them? lol..
Admittedly that move is one of the only moves I found a bit suspicious, but I don't think it proves much since he already saw a bunch of lings outside, and could be trying to respond to the fact that they were probably going to try to come up. 16:03 notice how he is sitting at his marine location waiting for those zerglings to come and attack. Notice how when lings are around his scvs he is always moving his marines and protecting his mineral line, even though the lings are obviously not going to his mineral line, but just in case!
Wait, what? It's pretty obvious that he's going to move his marines to guard his expansion as he takes it... The second part of your statement there doesn't really make sense to me
18:17 mass baneling moves out, we kill the overlord in the mid, take a different path, so he has no idea it's coming, yet he can make bunkers @ that time, and set up for the attack? 18:34, right as the units get at the front of his base he puts all his units into the crack and set up as best he can for the massive bust, coincidence / timing? No. Hacks.
And just leaves his tanks as suicide instead of actually using them to block the crack...? If he knew you were coming at that exact second, I'd think he could do a better job at blocking it.
Conclusion: Production tab hack / Map hack. There is simply no way he can sit there and setup for everything @ the exact right time the entire game, especially since he is not using any scans. In this game there are a bunch of fishy moves that make no sense, with out constantly scouting the map and not knowing whats coming, yet he sets up for everything and executes all the moves perfectly. I don't buy it. You're decision, this is what I think.
He didn't at all properly respond to Mutas at 17:30 (lost tech lab). If he was using production tab hack, wouldn't have have noticed mutas building, and guarded it?
Game 3: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
I would like to start this explanation by saying that this is probably the most obvious out of all the replays that I have. Here we go:
At 3:25, he looks at the lings, but only when they come into his ally's vision range. It seems like a decidedly non-hackerish thing to do
To star this game off, we have 10 pooled almost every game so it is safe to assume that we will be 10 pooling again, so his open is not hacking, it's just smart based on what we have been going. Also to make 3~4 bunkers incase of an early bane bust is a smart idea as well. However, as soon as the baneling nest goes down, watch the continuous mass of bunkers that are being produced.
You play this way every ZZ v ZT that goes beyond 10 pool from what I've seen, even down to sending out an extra queen to assassinate the scout overlord.
This is the first sign of hacking in this game, also notice that the zerg is going nothing but roaches, this is a complete and utter hard counter to our build this game. Notice how Sorcery has only one overlord hovering over our choke point, but that's it. They have no scouted our base @ all. Around 6:00 the baneling nest goes down, he continues to make bunkers, and pump roaches. Production tab hacking. We take a queen off the creep to kill that overlord in fear that he may scout the baneling nest, so now we have 6:56 they have literally not scouted anything on the map, so how can they know how to counter out build? Sac a fuckin lord bro, make it less obvious. 7:42 lings are coming in amass from purple, and the bunkers continue to be created, while roaches are beginning the mass. 8:23: 30 baneling morphs in, bunkers continue to make, as well as roaches to counter the massive pain they are about to feel. They have not scouted the map AT ALL THE ENTIRE GAME.
It's not like they could worker scout anyway. It's just playing ZT v ZZ without playing offensively
9:00 the baneling move out, they move their units in the perfect location to defend the attack.LoL? This is even before we get close to their base before they see whats coming. First attack is thwarted because of their perfect preparation even though they have no scouted the map at all, typical. Now after that first bust you would think, ok the two zergs know they are going mass bane ling so we will recreate our wall, that's a good assumption. However they have no scouted the map at all, so why are they not even afraid of anti air? They continue to hard counter baneling the whole time. 12:06, 30 more baneling morph in sorry 40! iGware sends out 4 scvs and look what he does as the baneling morph in. They jknow they don't have enough structures to counter 40 baneling so he sends out 4 scvs to create a huge wall, at that exact time? Coincidence? I think not. They haven't even scouted the map @ all, so they have no idea what kind of tech tree we have, but oh wait! they do, production tab hack, makes sense to me! Kid says muta, as we move out, obviously trying to cover up the fact they know what we're making? yep.
Conclusion: We could have probably won that game, but I rage quit when they built all those barracks at the exact time the baneling were morphing in, at that point I was just assuming we were at a disadvantage that's probably because I do not have any kind of hack on!!
You had a huge disadvantage, by then, what are you talking about?
At any rate, here are just some of the game that I played against them that really stick out, there are probably a lot more, when I was playing them not thinking that they cheat..
Conclusion overall: In these particular games, the only person who is obvious using cheats ( in my opinion ) is iGware. Going back to the fact that they swap account, based on the hotkeys it is save to assume that during each of these games, David Zhu is playing on Sorcery's account, and vice versa, as I do not think David Zhu is a hacker. Sorcery on the other hand is a full blown known hacker from DoTA so it would make a lot of sense that he would be cheating in starcraft 2.
If you think otherwise, that's fine. This is my perception and analysis of these games, and I think I'm pretty on point. But you can decide for yourself it's up to yoU!~!
- haCkProTech
I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.[/QUOTE]
I didn't even bother to read your post HelpImDying ( aka Peter admin of thebgh.com. )
The only reason that you are defending them is because you play with them. Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting. You can NOT explain everything with your logic.
Even in this post, as you can clearly see the majority of people agree with the accusations that I am making, these replays provide solid proof. You cannot explain the moves that this guys makes in ever game.
Furthermore, once a hacker, always a hacker unless you start to stream such as TT1. If you are considered of hacking / cheating why would you just not care? Especially at that hight of a level, you have a lot of attention drawn to you, so it would be wise for you to try and clear up your name.
I personally believe that if iGware puts up a stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I wrong and you were right. However I doubt that something like this would happen, as stated even before this thread, no one even knows of igware up until he hit the top of the ladder.
So it would be safe to say that, if he provides hard proof that he is not hacking i.e: a live stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I was wrong.
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
You do make a valid point, but what made me particularly suspicious were individual movements he made at specific moments rather than his general BO.
Let me ask you this: If you weren't their friends, would those replays still not look strange at all?
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
I should probably post some of the other games and show that your statement about how we play like a robot is a completely and utterly asinine statement. Knowing that we are going up against hackers we have now put it into our minds that we have to trick the production tab hack and literally waste minerals to make them think that we are going things that we are not. For example, a game on Tempest, he basically rushes to muta, but make no muta @ all, and yet they have no map control and no vision they throw up spores and turrets ready for it, we fooled them and made nothing of the sort, so they started to get confused, and that's why we won that game. We do not play like robots, and now we have to think of ways to trick their hack, it's really sad.
On March 12 2011 13:18 ProTech wrote: I didn't even bother to read your post HelpImDying ( aka Peter admin of thebgh.com. )
The only reason that you are defending them is because you play with them. Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting. You can NOT explain everything with your logic.
Even in this post, as you can clearly see the majority of people agree with the accusations that I am making, these replays provide solid proof. You cannot explain the moves that this guys makes in ever game.
Furthermore, once a hacker, always a hacker unless you start to stream such as TT1. If you are considered of hacking / cheating why would you just not care? Especially at that hight of a level, you have a lot of attention drawn to you, so it would be wise for you to try and clear up your name.
I personally believe that if iGware puts up a stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I wrong and you were right. However I doubt that something like this would happen, as stated even before this thread, no one even knows of igware up until he hit the top of the ladder.
So it would be safe to say that, if he provides hard proof that he is not hacking i.e: a live stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I was wrong.
First of all, I'm not sure why you keep trumpeting who I am? I don't see its relevance, nor have I ever denied it in this thread.
Secondly, if you even admit to not having bothered reading my post, then how would you be able to state "you can NOT explain everything with your logic" - you wouldn't know if I had managed to or not, right?
Thirdly with regards to why I defend them, I already admitted to being their friend:
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend
However, I wouldn't defend them if I believed your accusations.
Presumably he doesn't care about your accusations because it makes literally no difference to his playing whether you believe he hacks or not, Protech.
I and some others already posted why most of what you said is not suspicious, and unfortunately a lot of people here who view the replays are not going to know how many times they've played you (and how they know what you're going to do because you always do it every game).
The game-3 barracks wall when your morphing 35 banelings is just goofy obvious. Also, why wouldn't either of them scout the entire game? No scans, no overlords, no nothing? 13 minute game and terran makes absolutely 0 prep for mutas? No tech until ~10 minutes, just massive walling?
On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
~6 minutes in 2nd game, as wella s several other times. he's not moving any units just looking there. Your his friend i don't know anyone in this story i didn't play any games. However i watched replays and i thought it was pretty clear what i saw. I guess if he doesn't cheat he will prove his skill soon enough (or most likely he will be banned).
Also, ZZ is something brand new, you say that we play ZZ the same way every time? That's bullshit, the ZZ builds are only 2 weeks old IF EVEN THAT.
Tz vs Tz has been the match up since the hellion ling combo came out. You can't sit there and say that we play ZZ vs ZT the same way every single time. That's bullshit, and it sounds to me like you're just spewing things out of your ass.
Blizzard hasn't exactly been on top of things, I do understand that they are trying to make their case against zynastor and relinquish the hackers is a timely process, but I think the people should know who the real hackers are.
Kk I guess that's reasonable. The title of the thread is a little misleading to the purpose however xD Was just being critical though. Zynastor? is he the hacker who got major punishments? (the first of the hackers caught) Or is that case not done yet?
If they had played vs protech/his ally a lot of times, then its pretty reasonable to build like this. I have to admit that the game on Scorched Haven was pretty weird, their lack of even attempting to scout is pretty sad and the mass barracks wall as well.
The 1v1 is a bit suspicious, most of the things that you mentioned were not really proof of hack in my opinion. I watched a replay that I played vs igware TvT and there was some weird similarities. He did not scout namchir one time for 20 minutes after his scv died, which saw nothing but a standard barracks and a factory. He did the same thing in the game against me, and still in both games, he made turrets at perfect time to counter the banshees ( In the game against me my banshees were super delayed and he didn't make an engi bay / turrets until I started making banshees at about 10 minutes into the game.
If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
The one thing that makes me the most suspicious of him hacking is the fact that his apm / multitasking / macro are just HORRIBLE, and yet he somehow manages to win a ton of games. He does not build efficiently or have good timings. FFS his macro is barely diamond league. There is a ton of things that every player in the top 200 knows to do that he has no clue about.
I can't say that I 100% think that he is hacking, there is no hard proof, but it is pretty weird and you have to take everything protech says with a grain of salt because he is the most BM person I have ever seen and he is definitely missing a few screws.
The one thing that makes me the most suspicious of him hacking is the fact that his apm / multitasking / macro are just HORRIBLE, and yet he somehow manages to win a ton of games. He does not build efficiently or have good timings. FFS his macro is barely diamond league. There is a ton of things that every player in the top 200 knows to do that he has no clue about.
Exactly as I felt-- like a mid level diamond player with ridiculously uncanny intuition yet never scouts.
On March 12 2011 13:30 drewbie.root wrote: If they had played vs protech/his ally a lot of times, then its pretty reasonable to build like this. I have to admit that the game on Scorched Haven was pretty weird, their lack of even attempting to scout is pretty sad and the mass barracks wall as well.
The 1v1 is a bit suspicious, most of the things that you mentioned were not really proof of hack in my opinion. I watched a replay that I played vs igware TvT and there was some weird similarities. He did not scout namchir one time for 20 minutes after his scv died, which saw nothing but a standard barracks and a factory. He did the same thing in the game against me, and still in both games, he made turrets at perfect time to counter the banshees ( In the game against me my banshees were super delayed and he didn't make an engi bay / turrets until I started making banshees at about 10 minutes into the game.
If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
The one thing that makes me the most suspicious of him hacking is the fact that his apm / multitasking / macro are just HORRIBLE, and yet he somehow manages to win a ton of games. He does not build efficiently or have good timings. FFS his macro is barely diamond league. There is a ton of things that every player in the top 200 knows to do that he has no clue about.
I can't say that I 100% think that he is hacking, there is no hard proof, but it is pretty weird and you have to take everything protech says with a grain of salt because he is the most BM person I have ever seen and he is definitely missing a few screws.
I openly apologize for bad mannering you as I have been watching your streams and you are a cool dude. I do apologize, sometimes the e-drama is what makes sc2, sc2 for us team players who dont play that competitively.
I agree with your assumptions, but I do disagree with how these games do not show obvious hacks. As you stated in your TvT he always has the timing of the banshee / cloak every game. He always knows when it's being produced and waits almost to the last second to make the ebay giving him enough time to prepare for it, I have seen this is MANY MANY MANY of our TZ vs TZ match ups.
EDIT: They have not played the ZZ vs ZT combo tons of times, they have played me with the TZ vs TZ combo A LOT of times.
On March 12 2011 13:29 ProTech wrote: Also, ZZ is something brand new, you say that we play ZZ the same way every time? That's bullshit, the ZZ builds are only 2 weeks old IF EVEN THAT.
Tz vs Tz has been the match up since the hellion ling combo came out. You can't sit there and say that we play ZZ vs ZT the same way every single time. That's bullshit, and it sounds to me like you're just spewing things out of your ass.
The vast majority of ZZs I've seen of you, you double 10 pool, or if it goes longer you go for mass baneling bust. Having said that, I'm sure if I play you again you'll mix it up since I just said that, but before that going into a game I'd absolutely expect you to play exactly like you did on Scorched.
Not sure how closely you looked at game 1 with the cloak/eng bay thing.
First i watched from His PoV, and he never looks at his opponents base.
Secondly, i watched carefully to see whether he built the Eng bay before or after the cloak started.
He actually sent the SCV to build it BEFORE cloak started so this is no proof of hacking, just Good luck/Really close timings. Cloak banshee is a standard opener in TvT
On March 12 2011 13:18 ProTech wrote: Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting.
It took quite some time and thought and reasoning to say that someone builds an engi bay after their opponent starts cloak even when it's clearly not true? I noticed that on my first viewing of that replay and you're accusing someone of hacking and you don't even take the time to look closely at these kinds of things...
Just finished the second game. Not once did iGware look through the fog of war at ANYTHING that his opponents had. What the hell are you guys talking about??
Yo ProTech I've played u a couple times (I'm cFChoseN - T user). You make a pretty good case, at the very least I know some of those guys have massive account sharing and some fishy stuff going on. But I'm wondering, isn't PinkPrincess known as MegumixBear now? You listed a different aka for him, he's one of my allies.
Oh and what hacks are out? I noticed you said Production tab hack??? There is actually shit like that out there? How common is it on Bnet?
As my final closing statement in this post I will be uploading alot more of our games played against igware / sorcery. There are a lot of things that I want people to see, but it takes a lot of time to watch the rep and write about it, so this will come at a later date.
As I stated before, these are just my perspective and my opinions, you will have your own. Im just putting this out there because if he really does hack, then it's a shame that blizzard is not catching this and recognizing him at the #1 top 200 player, when drewbie clearly stated, his mechanics and macro are diamond level, which I seriously agree with.
Thank you for all your posts and input on the situation, as I will have more to come!
14:20 mark of 2nd game he is sending the rines to the bottom bunker in preparation for the speedlings that he hasn't seen coming yet. The reason he is caught off guard with the mutas is likely the fact that they look/move similar to speedlings on the minimap.
Well ProTech, I've played you a couple times to know your skill in SC2 is pretty unmatched. I've gotten brutally hurt each time I played you, and I think its unlikely he's been hard countering you like that each game without aid.
However, if you think he's cheating, perhaps set up some kind of custom 2v2 or 1v1 with him, and have all players stream themselves? (actually this only solves part of the problem, afterall, you can always "lose" a game)
played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
I haven't watched any of the replays, but for those saying that he made the ebay before cloak was started. If you see 1 starport with tech lab... it's gonna be cloak banshee 95% of the time. It doesn't hurt to just start an ebay in advance if you have a view of their production tab.
On March 12 2011 13:46 nalgene wrote: This guy's in the top 200, so his game sense would be pretty good even without scouting...
flash's game sense and knowing the flow of the game is pretty good...
and as that igware guy plays more, his game sense would continuously improve...
maybe he's just good at 2s?
Clearly SC2 isn't brood war. SC2 is based on hard counter and good scouting. I doubt someone could get into top 200 with that bad of an APM, multitasking, and macro. Have you even watched the replays? This isn't brood war.
I do not share my account with anyone, however. We've nearly got Sorcery set up streaming, but it's like dragging a horse through mud with how bad he is at these tech things
Yea, @drewbie agreed he doesn't make it look like he hacks if he does, but there are just so many oddities with his play, and even though I am a better mechanical player than he is he managed to take a good number of games off me.
Also @ ret he did that in between proxy to me as well without scouting...
Wow, I figured this kid hacked. I played him on ladder a few times, analyzed the replays and he had some weird timings, never scouted or scanned me either. It was just too weird, also knowing he's a top player, they usually scan to see where your opponents army is, not once did he scan.. I'm very glad that someone pointed this out. Appreciate it Protech
On March 12 2011 13:56 KaluGOSU wrote: Wow, I figured this kid hacked. I played him on ladder a few times, analyzed the replays and he had some weird timings, never scouted or scanned me either. It was just too weird, also knowing he's a top player, they usually scan to see where your opponents army is, not once did he scan.. I'm very glad that someone pointed this out. Appreciate it Protech
from my limited experience with both of them they have no honor so it wouldnt surprise me if both or either of them hacked/cheated whatever. all the same tho without solid concrete proof i would point fingers.
On March 12 2011 13:50 PinkPrincess wrote: Yes cFChosen, that's me.
I do not share my account with anyone, however. We've nearly got Sorcery set up streaming, but it's like dragging a horse through mud with how bad he is at these tech things
I just have to make this point real quick, when the stream gets set up, it would be pretty dumb to run a hack on stream, right? So I realized that the stream really isn't going to make much of a difference, what we'll have to find out is if he was in actuality hacking before he starts streaming.
Ok the thing is , this is very pathetic and if this threat is not locked soon i am disapointed. It's clear that in game 1 he didn't map hack someone posted here a really good "what and why he did that scenario".
I watched the 2'nd game and what to they see a z massing zerlings , the problem most of you come up with is why is he making so many bunkers but let's think you go for : ling-roches - they have roches+marines - they win ling+mutas- you do some initial damage with the mutas but after they have marines + lots of minerals from the salvaged bunkers - they win ling+ling ... you lose ling+banelings = only way to really defend is bunkers.
and let's not forget maybe they know your style , maybe you are not as good as you think especially after watching the first replay where it's JUST ...... Let's say he is a hacker ... well those replays don't prove anything , so in my eyes he is not guilty and you are just pathetic unless you come with good profs.
Oh and my other question is when do mutas come when you have taken your natural ? at around what time ? - and don't tell me they had no ideea your partner took his natural ... he walked that queen all the way from the main base to kill an overlord to hide mutas , worth it if it was at the natural MAYBE .... ?
And the most important defense for the last game , because i repeat the others are pathetic ... MAYBE they know your playstile and that's pretty clear.
I know hackers are a problem , but sometimes some of us rage so much because we consider the opponent a retard and only way he could have placed a engineering bay at that time is he hacked , no way he knew i was going dts ... considering i had 2 gases and i have low amount of units or why did he make an observer then or why did he move a part of his army next to his mineral line or why did he make a viking or ... the list can go on : IT"S CALLED GAME SENSE and knowing your opponent and what they can do and what they usually do. Sorry this was long but the few that try to defend compared to the ones that AAAAA hacker is amazing considering they don't watch the replays.
On March 12 2011 13:59 Liquid`HuK wrote: from my limited experience with both of them they have no honor so it wouldnt surprise me if both or either of them hacked/cheated whatever. all the same tho without solid concrete proof i would point fingers.
Have you played against LaTeGaMe? I think they might be the same people They have similar APM and same control groups
On March 12 2011 13:59 Liquid`HuK wrote: from my limited experience with both of them they have no honor so it wouldnt surprise me if both or either of them hacked/cheated whatever. all the same tho without solid concrete proof i would point fingers.
By the way, you recently played iGware under a different name: LaTeGaMe.
I dont know how the games went but when i looked @ the match history he 6 pooled you on a huge map.
On March 12 2011 14:01 Greenworld wrote: Ok the thing is , this is very pathetic and if this threat is not locked soon i am disapointed. It's clear that in game 1 he didn't map hack someone posted here a really good "what and why he did that scenario".
I watched the 2'nd game and what to they see a z massing zerlings , the problem most of you come up with is why is he making so many bunkers but let's think you go for : ling-roches - they have roches+marines - they win ling+mutas- you do some initial damage with the mutas but after they have marines + lots of minerals from the salvaged bunkers - they win ling+ling ... you lose ling+banelings = only way to really defend is bunkers.
and let's not forget maybe they know your style , maybe you are not as good as you think especially after watching the first replay where it's JUST ...... Let's say he is a hacker ... well those replays don't prove anything , so in my eyes he is not guilty and you are just pathetic unless you come with good profs.
Oh and my other question is when do mutas come when you have taken your natural ? at around what time ? - and don't tell me they had no ideea your partner took his natural ... he walked that queen all the way from the main base to kill an overlord to hide mutas , worth it if it was at the natural MAYBE .... ?
And the most important defense for the last game , because i repeat the others are pathetic ... MAYBE they know your playstile and that's pretty clear.
I know hackers are a problem , but sometimes some of us rage so much because we consider the opponent a retard and only way he could have placed a engineering bay at that time is he hacked , no way he knew i was going dts ... considering i had 2 gases and i have low amount of units or why did he make an observer then or why did he move a part of his army next to his mineral line or why did he make a viking or ... the list can go on : IT"S CALLED GAME SENSE and knowing your opponent and what they can do and what they usually do. Sorry this was long but the few that try to defend compared to the ones that AAAAA hacker is amazing considering they don't watch the replays.
I don't buy it for a second. This kid is a joke and the more people watch him the more he will fail. If he enters any big tourney live. he won't compete, i promise.
I know sorcery used to play on NeverDawn and got to the top20 on the blizzard top200 around october, but hasn't played a game on it since then. Is that account banned? lol
On March 12 2011 14:05 Flashback- wrote: I know sorcery used to play on NeverDawn and got to the top20 on the blizzard top200 around october, but hasn't played a game on it since then. Is that account banned? lol
On March 12 2011 13:59 Liquid`HuK wrote: from my limited experience with both of them they have no honor so it wouldnt surprise me if both or either of them hacked/cheated whatever. all the same tho without solid concrete proof i would'nt point fingers.
I don't know if this will amount to anything, but it certainly seems to fit with the trend I've seen here. I was at the UC Berkeley tournament on Feb 26, and iGware took out both PainUser and EGAxslav back to back. Everyone there was wondering who iGware was, since he wasn't physically at the event. He ended up winning 3rd place (or 4th, I don't remember and don't have the results handy), but didn't show up to claim his prize.
After that experience with him, reading this thread wasn't much of a surprise to me.
the decision making in the TvT game seems fishy, he also has very little apm to be one of the best in the world. He is probably hacking but the replay shows very little proof. The first 2v2 rgame yeah you guys have a million zerglings left after you killed of his zerg. Kinda safe to assume there is gonna be a baneling bust. The second 2v2 game, kinda same logic applies - you guys just keep spamming lings and they can see 40+ lings so the most reasonable thing to do is assuming baneling busts going roaches + making the wall stronger seems to be just smart.
On March 12 2011 14:04 Utinni wrote: Actually. Everyone vote him into NASL so I can watch him fail.
No. I like the idea and I like creatively punishing people, but that would undermine the credibility of the largest American StarCraft venture thus far. This is something that as an eSport we do not want.
Like the creativity, though. I was like 'Holy shit this is a great idea' initially, but then I reconsidered.
you guys are being far too generous. with his mechanics, lack of scouting, macro etc., there's no way he doesn't hack. you don't have diamond macro and get to 4100 points, you get there by being a fucking ridiculously good player.
On March 12 2011 14:10 idonthinksobro wrote: the decision making in the TvT game seems fishy, he also has very little apm to be one of the best in the world. He is probably hacking but the replay shows very little proof. The first 2v2 rgame yeah you guys have a million zerglings left after you killed of his zerg. Kinda safe to assume there is gonna be a baneling bust. The second 2v2 game, kinda same logic applies - you guys just keep spamming lings and they can see 40+ lings so the most reasonable thing to do is assuming baneling busts going roaches + making the wall stronger seems to be just smart.
It's not like they knew that bandit had lings, I didn't even show his lings until the banelings were coming.
On March 12 2011 14:04 Utinni wrote: Actually. Everyone vote him into NASL so I can watch him fail.
Why would anyone want to waste a spot on an alleged hacker for a national tournament to prove something Blizzard will figure out?
Well, I hope they do. It's not like he has turned to hacking overnight.Skeptical play for a while is discouraging. Yet nothing has been done. I rather see results.
On March 12 2011 14:14 Vei wrote: you guys are being far too generous. with his mechanics, lack of scouting, macro etc., there's no way he doesn't hack. you don't have diamond macro and get to 4100 points, you get there by being a fucking ridiculously good player.
On March 12 2011 14:04 Utinni wrote: Actually. Everyone vote him into NASL so I can watch him fail.
Why would anyone want to waste a spot on an alleged hacker for a national tournament to prove something Blizzard will figure out?
Well, I hope they do. It's not like he has turned to hacking overnight.Skeptical play for a while is discouraging. Yet nothing has been done. I rather see results.
There's a bunch of other people I'd rather see in NASL than this guy right now. If he participated in some smaller tournaments or even MLG playing some exciting games I'd change my mind.
Ok i decided to watch the 1'st game too ... YOU MUST BE ..... he could see 90% of what you were doing he could see what units you made , he knew how many gases you had and let's be serious blame the APM ? in 3'rd game one of the zergs had 1 base made only lings , didn't micro at all just sat with them and had 150+ apm ... i know to bad apm doesn't mean that much in sc2 when you just sit with your army and spam buttons ... but hey you can call slow ppl hackers. Before qq here about the rushes he does watch the replay of what he sees and stop spaming those buttons and THINK ( how much did day[9] say you need apm to do everything in sc2 ? or he is one that has no ideea about the game - 60-70 apm ). So until i see AT least him intercepting a drop or something .. GET serious i did more "hacking" then him. So don't blame the apm , there were slow players even in sc1 that did great things , it's not the fastest that wins most of the time.
GOGO 150 apm 1 base and can't even move your zerlings right .... how would you consider that ?
On March 12 2011 14:28 Greenworld wrote: Ok i decided to watch the 1'st game too ... YOU MUST BE ..... he could see 90% of what you were doing he could see what units you made , he knew how many gases you had and let's be serious blame the APM ? in 3'rd game one of the zergs had 1 base made only lings , didn't micro at all just sat with them and had 150+ apm ... i know to bad apm doesn't mean that much in sc2 when you just sit with your army and spam buttons ... but hey you can call slow ppl hackers. Before qq here about the rushes he does watch the replay of what he sees and stop spaming those buttons and THINK ( how much did day[9] say you need apm to do everything in sc2 ? or he is one that has no ideea about the game - 60-70 apm ). So until i see AT least him intercepting a drop or something .. GET serious i did more "hacking" then him. So don't blame the apm , there were slow players even in sc1 that did great things , it's not the fastest that wins most of the time.
GOGO 150 apm 1 base and can't even move your zerlings right .... how would you consider that ?
On March 12 2011 11:28 ProTech wrote: 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
This part of the replay give him away. He is VERY careful to now show he is hacking but that part makes it crystal clear. I was very reluctant when I saw this thread but it's just sad to see top world rank player getting there by hacking -_-
On March 12 2011 14:28 Greenworld wrote: Ok i decided to watch the 1'st game too ... YOU MUST BE ..... he could see 90% of what you were doing he could see what units you made , he knew how many gases you had and let's be serious blame the APM ? in 3'rd game one of the zergs had 1 base made only lings , didn't micro at all just sat with them and had 150+ apm ... i know to bad apm doesn't mean that much in sc2 when you just sit with your army and spam buttons ... but hey you can call slow ppl hackers. Before qq here about the rushes he does watch the replay of what he sees and stop spaming those buttons and THINK ( how much did day[9] say you need apm to do everything in sc2 ? or he is one that has no ideea about the game - 60-70 apm ). So until i see AT least him intercepting a drop or something .. GET serious i did more "hacking" then him. So don't blame the apm , there were slow players even in sc1 that did great things , it's not the fastest that wins most of the time.
GOGO 150 apm 1 base and can't even move your zerlings right .... how would you consider that ?
You dont understand how "good hackers" think.. Of course they aren't going to blind intercept a drop or something BLATANTLY obvious.. that will just make it super easy for them to get caught. They try THEIR HARDEST to not get caught..
Watch the 2v2 games, where they slip up on hiding it and start looking at the fog/making 6 bunkers without scouting the banelings.. Thats where they get caught. They didnt MEAN to get caught, but in the heat of the moment, small things slip, and thats where you find your hacker.
So you guys say he is voted high on the NASL website? We'll have to see if he actually gets considered and rejects the offer. Let's be honest, I can buy an argument that he doesn't like playing in 100 dollar tournaments, but a life changing 100 000 dollar one... Anyways, I was reserving judgement and still am, however seeing Huk, Ret, Drewbie and others all agree on fishy play...not to mention the guy is number 2 US and n12 worldwide. We're not talking some random guy here.
I know i am not a top 200 like yourself , i am only in the 2% of the players if that's what beeing masters means. So in your opinion ppl like Nal_ra were idiots ?
On March 12 2011 14:28 Greenworld wrote: Ok i decided to watch the 1'st game too ... YOU MUST BE ..... he could see 90% of what you were doing he could see what units you made , he knew how many gases you had and let's be serious blame the APM ? in 3'rd game one of the zergs had 1 base made only lings , didn't micro at all just sat with them and had 150+ apm ... i know to bad apm doesn't mean that much in sc2 when you just sit with your army and spam buttons ... but hey you can call slow ppl hackers. Before qq here about the rushes he does watch the replay of what he sees and stop spaming those buttons and THINK ( how much did day[9] say you need apm to do everything in sc2 ? or he is one that has no ideea about the game - 60-70 apm ). So until i see AT least him intercepting a drop or something .. GET serious i did more "hacking" then him. So don't blame the apm , there were slow players even in sc1 that did great things , it's not the fastest that wins most of the time.
GOGO 150 apm 1 base and can't even move your zerlings right .... how would you consider that ?
Listen, when you got to deal with musltiple drops on multiple fronts in BW, dont worry that with your 60apm, you`re gonna get crushed very harsly. The more actions you can do per minute, the more you can do, its fucking obvious. When Day9 says to not focus on apm, its only for the beginners not to start spamming just to get their numbers up.
Apm does reflects your ability to stay on the edge and to do multiple things at the same time, it also shows how well themechanics have been integrated into your muscle memory. Its not a race to apm but if you top the NA ladder and you play at 60apm, there`s a fucking problem.
On March 12 2011 14:39 Validity wrote: Socery (lasthitmagic) was confirmed to have maphacked in dota. Just putting that out there.
oh wow I didnt know he was lasthitmagic.. thats unreal lol.
Just so everyone is clear.. IGware (the account owner) doesnt hack, its Sorcery playing on IGware's account with the hacks so his account wont get banned..
As far as I can tell (and this is 100% my guess, not fact), this IGware account is never meant to be a main account, its a smurf account that they are testing the hacks on. And thats how it climbed to top 5 worldwide so fast/top of 2v2 AT also.
Wow kid really? I saw you post in the thread that was mentioning him and laddering to the top, you just accused him of hacking the whole time and it certainly seems like you have a personal grudge against him... I really don't understand why you even took the time to make this thread.
On March 12 2011 14:50 GreEny K wrote: Wow kid really? I saw you post in the thread that was mentioning him and laddering to the top, you just accused him of hacking the whole time and it certainly seems like you have a personal grudge against him... I really don't understand why you even took the time to make this thread.
On March 12 2011 14:50 GreEny K wrote: Wow kid really? I saw you post in the thread that was mentioning him and laddering to the top, you just accused him of hacking the whole time and it certainly seems like you have a personal grudge against him... I really don't understand why you even took the time to make this thread.
Read the post carefully, and you will think the same as most of these posters.
On March 12 2011 14:28 Greenworld wrote: Ok i decided to watch the 1'st game too ... YOU MUST BE ..... he could see 90% of what you were doing he could see what units you made , he knew how many gases you had and let's be serious blame the APM ? in 3'rd game one of the zergs had 1 base made only lings , didn't micro at all just sat with them and had 150+ apm ... i know to bad apm doesn't mean that much in sc2 when you just sit with your army and spam buttons ... but hey you can call slow ppl hackers. Before qq here about the rushes he does watch the replay of what he sees and stop spaming those buttons and THINK ( how much did day[9] say you need apm to do everything in sc2 ? or he is one that has no ideea about the game - 60-70 apm ). So until i see AT least him intercepting a drop or something .. GET serious i did more "hacking" then him. So don't blame the apm , there were slow players even in sc1 that did great things , it's not the fastest that wins most of the time.
GOGO 150 apm 1 base and can't even move your zerlings right .... how would you consider that ?
Listen, when you got to deal with musltiple drops on multiple fronts in BW, dont worry that with your 60apm, you`re gonna get crushed very harsly. The more actions you can do per minute, the more you can do, its fucking obvious. When Day9 says to not focus on apm, its only for the beginners not to start spamming just to get their numbers up.
Apm does reflects your ability to stay on the edge and to do multiple things at the same time, it also shows how well themechanics have been integrated into your muscle memory. Its not a race to apm but if you top the NA ladder and you play at 60apm, there`s a fucking problem.
He does not have 60 apm in mid late game if you noticed , his apm gets bigger as the game lasts longer. The 20:10 thing is lol , if he would have been a true hacker he would have just walked his army from the bottom left to the enemy's natural and upsy noticed an expo and killed it on the attack he did earlier or just moved with his entire army since he had tanks too.
If he really hacked in those 1v1 and 2v2 he might have , but it's not 100% sure , apm means 0 in my eyes and so it should to everyone else considering he does have decent apm in late game.
On March 12 2011 14:28 Greenworld wrote: Ok i decided to watch the 1'st game too ... YOU MUST BE ..... he could see 90% of what you were doing he could see what units you made , he knew how many gases you had and let's be serious blame the APM ? in 3'rd game one of the zergs had 1 base made only lings , didn't micro at all just sat with them and had 150+ apm ... i know to bad apm doesn't mean that much in sc2 when you just sit with your army and spam buttons ... but hey you can call slow ppl hackers. Before qq here about the rushes he does watch the replay of what he sees and stop spaming those buttons and THINK ( how much did day[9] say you need apm to do everything in sc2 ? or he is one that has no ideea about the game - 60-70 apm ). So until i see AT least him intercepting a drop or something .. GET serious i did more "hacking" then him. So don't blame the apm , there were slow players even in sc1 that did great things , it's not the fastest that wins most of the time.
GOGO 150 apm 1 base and can't even move your zerlings right .... how would you consider that ?
Listen, when you got to deal with musltiple drops on multiple fronts in BW, dont worry that with your 60apm, you`re gonna get crushed very harsly. The more actions you can do per minute, the more you can do, its fucking obvious. When Day9 says to not focus on apm, its only for the beginners not to start spamming just to get their numbers up.
Apm does reflects your ability to stay on the edge and to do multiple things at the same time, it also shows how well themechanics have been integrated into your muscle memory. Its not a race to apm but if you top the NA ladder and you play at 60apm, there`s a fucking problem.
He does not have 60 apm in mid late game if you noticed , his apm gets bigger as the game lasts longer. The 20:10 thing is lol , if he would have been a true hacker he would have just walked his army from the bottom left to the enemy's natural and upsy noticed an expo and killed it on the attack he did earlier or just moved with his entire army since he had tanks too.
If he really hacked in those 1v1 and 2v2 he might have , but it's not 100% sure , apm means 0 in my eyes and so it should to everyone else considering he does have decent apm in late game.
Watched the first 2 games and saw zero evidence of hacking. On the contrary, he was totally ill-prepared for all harassment. The claims in the OP are extremely flimsy - if this is the best evidence out there, well, I'm not convinced. However, the replays also showed a very mediocre player with poor macro who doesn't scout, which is obviously not a top 5 player in the world.
On March 12 2011 15:07 whatthefat wrote: Watched the first 2 games and saw zero evidence of hacking. On the contrary, he was totally ill-prepared for all harassment. The claims in the OP are extremely flimsy - if this is the best evidence out there, well, I'm not convinced. However, the replays also showed a very mediocre player with poor macro who doesn't scout, which is obviously not a top 5 player in the world.
Because he was busy hacking. And hackers aren't going to make it obvious 24 / 7
On March 12 2011 15:07 rysecake wrote: Well now we know why they have a 210-10 win record. What losers. Top 200 1v1, top teams in teh world. Platinum level play. gg
For those defending iGware, you do need to consider that hackers would make mistakes on purpose to try and hide their hacking, though I believe that's been mentioned already.
On another note, I saw this iGware guy completely outplay HasHe on the latter's stream a few days ago. I thought that the guy just had really good game sense from the way that he always attacked where hashe wasn't defending at the right times. Guess I was wrong.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
And your details have been thwarted time and time again.
And based on what you wrote, you obviously didnt watch the replay in the right speed and see every single little detail he did
60 apm + no scouting 20 mins into game makes no sense anyway.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
On March 12 2011 15:07 whatthefat wrote: Watched the first 2 games and saw zero evidence of hacking. On the contrary, he was totally ill-prepared for all harassment. The claims in the OP are extremely flimsy - if this is the best evidence out there, well, I'm not convinced. However, the replays also showed a very mediocre player with poor macro who doesn't scout, which is obviously not a top 5 player in the world.
Because he was busy hacking. And hackers aren't going to make it obvious 24 / 7
I watched both games twice (with camera on him, and from everyone's view). The only thing even slightly odd was his pulling away from the spawning pool just before he targeted it down in the 2v2 game, which could easily have been a reaction to the large army he knew was nearby already, or even a mis-micro. You keep repeating "He's obviously hacking - look at the way he doesn't look like he's hacking because he's so busy hacking". It's really not convincing.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
And your details have been thwarted time and time again.
And based on what you wrote, you obviously didnt watch the replay in the right speed and see every single little detail he did
60 apm + no scouting 20 mins into game makes no sense anyway.
On March 12 2011 14:57 Greenworld wrote: apm means 0 in my eyes and so it should to everyone else considering he does have decent apm in late game.
and at 20:10 he was planting a cc
I love people who contradict themselves in the span of one sentence
I appologize for my bad english , what i wanted to say apm doesn't mean anything in my eyes. IF it does in yours you should see he has decent apm in late game. If you didn't understand now i am sorry again and gonna ask for someone to translate for me.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
ROFL, just ran both this clown's and Green's IPs on a tracker and they're exactly the same.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
And your details have been thwarted time and time again.
And based on what you wrote, you obviously didnt watch the replay in the right speed and see every single little detail he did
60 apm + no scouting 20 mins into game makes no sense anyway.
Protech, where in this topic has anyone addressed the points he raised here? You keep claiming his claims are refuted, how he's wrong, etc. - but you refuse to address the fact that he addressed all the "suspicious" things in it.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
ROFL, just ran both this clown's and Green's IPs on a tracker and they're exactly the same.
lulz, this just puts the icing on the cake.
Unless you're a staff member, I fail to see how you would've gotten their IPs...? If you're a staff member, why not just reveal yourself, since by posting that you're either blatantly lying, or have already revealed yourself as a staff member.
On March 12 2011 14:57 Greenworld wrote: apm means 0 in my eyes and so it should to everyone else considering he does have decent apm in late game.
and at 20:10 he was planting a cc
I love people who contradict themselves in the span of one sentence
I appologize for my bad english , what i wanted to say apm doesn't mean anything in my eyes. IF it does in yours you should see he has decent apm in late game. If you didn't understand now i am sorry again and gonna ask for someone to translate for me.
60 apm in the late game is not decent for a top 5 ladder player.
None of the evidence is concrete, if it was there would be no discussion here. However from what i've seen of him, and his past in DoTA, i believe its a case of guilty until proven innocent.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
And your details have been thwarted time and time again.
And based on what you wrote, you obviously didnt watch the replay in the right speed and see every single little detail he did
60 apm + no scouting 20 mins into game makes no sense anyway.
Protech, where in this topic has anyone addressed the points he raised here? You keep claiming his claims are refuted, how he's wrong, etc. - but you refuse to address the fact that he addressed all the "suspicious" things in it.
Agreed, I spotted everything Vertigo did in the first game. The OP's points on that game are just way off the mark. If ProTech wants to be taken seriously, he needs to at least respond to reasonable debate.
It's the obvious actions of a hacker. When I played BW I used a maphack and would do the same types of actions. BW didn't take as much effort to hide though since replays didn't have first-person perspective replays. But things like allowing an expo to build or allowing a drop into my base were common moves. Likewise when I had a wall-hack in Action Quake 2, I would often "slip up" in my gameplay to allow others to either kill me outright, or path my routes through maps in a way to avoid a player until I could "happen" upon them from behind. I would take these actions because players could spectate my view and would easily be able to tell I was wall-hacking and get me banned from the server.
We can also probably assume that he isn't constantly watching his mini-map, because he plays like a low-level diamond/high platinum player, and a common problem for players all the way up to Masters is constantly watching the minimap.
You seriously cannot be a top 5 ladder player with 60 apm. Apm doesnt mean anything apparently but I push 90-100 as a high master player who uses 2 hotkeys. And looking at these replays, he is suspicious as hell. The 6 bunker thing... standard.
PinkPrincess, it's quite funny to make that you seem to be half trying to copy the name of that girl who was on the Sorcery aka LastHitMagic tip in DotA. To everyone saying there's no definitive proof: That's true. Unfortunately, calling Sorcery aka LastHitMagic a maphacker is not without precedent. He did the exact same thing in DotA. Be decent at the game, but hack to make yourself godly. Obviously APM itself does not a professional make, but it is fairly indicative of lots of things important in the game (multitasking, to mention one).
ROFL, just ran both this clown's and Green's IPs on a tracker and they're exactly the same.
lulz, this just puts the icing on the cake.
wow, so now you're IP oogling random people on the site? hell, whatever happened to privacy? can you get onto his hard drive and tell us what he has in his folder as well, because, you know, he's defending that iGware guy?
stick this in the hacker section and let the mods take care of it
EDIT: just so it's out there, I don't really support either side, but it does look weird
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
And your details have been thwarted time and time again.
And based on what you wrote, you obviously didnt watch the replay in the right speed and see every single little detail he did
60 apm + no scouting 20 mins into game makes no sense anyway.
Protech, where in this topic has anyone addressed the points he raised here? You keep claiming his claims are refuted, how he's wrong, etc. - but you refuse to address the fact that he addressed all the "suspicious" things in it.
Agreed, I spotted everything Vertigo did in the first game. The OP's points on that game are just way off the mark. If ProTech wants to be taken seriously, he needs to at least respond to reasonable debate.
So you're the third person who disagress with me, that's fine. There's about 25+ who agree, so obviously I wouldn't care ^_^
I saw all 3 replays. The first game where he just randomly sent marines to the expo was fishy indeed. I do not think anyone can argue against something like that. If you know your opponent has banshees/blue flame hellions, I'll think twice about sending marines by themselves. The second game, I didn't see anything obvious or suspicious. I found shocking that he played very mediocre. If you knew your opponent has mass lings, get blue flame hellions? I am unsure massing marines was a good preparation to handle ling/baneling. I wish I can see more replays of this guy. He is Top 10 in the US server afterall. The third game can be a little suspicious since they haven't scouted at all. But with mass lings walled off, must come mass banelings. Wish I can yell hacker, but if you can find more replays of him, that would be great.
I checked out his match history though. The guy loves to win, I'll tell you that.
Pretty obvious at this point, i doubt he has that good game sense with horrible mechanics in contrast, and being a previous DOTA hacker their is no reason not to believe he would not do it again.
I don't see any legitimate points for his defense either, his mechanics are horrid for a masters players let alone a top 5 in the world. Multiple replays of over reactions to things he has never seen.
Either the replays are all dumb luck or hes cheating, and you dont get top 5 in the world through dumb luck.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
And your details have been thwarted time and time again.
And based on what you wrote, you obviously didnt watch the replay in the right speed and see every single little detail he did
60 apm + no scouting 20 mins into game makes no sense anyway.
Protech, where in this topic has anyone addressed the points he raised here? You keep claiming his claims are refuted, how he's wrong, etc. - but you refuse to address the fact that he addressed all the "suspicious" things in it.
Agreed, I spotted everything Vertigo did in the first game. The OP's points on that game are just way off the mark. If ProTech wants to be taken seriously, he needs to at least respond to reasonable debate.
So you're the third person who disagress with me, that's fine. There's about 25+ who agree, so obviously I wouldn't care ^_^
Problem is none of those people have addressed any of Vertigo's points either. If he's wrong on even a single one of those points, explain why.
On March 12 2011 13:05 VertigoX23 wrote: I just watched the first game.
7:10 - He selects his SCV and sends it up to build the ebay BEFORE cloak starts researching. 7:50 - He scouts the expo with his banshee and sees that it's empty and goes back to his hiding spot. Why would he do that if he's hacking? 10:00 - Dropship flies all the way across the middle of the map, drops 4 hellions and starts roasting SCV's BEFORE he even notices it. 11:15 - Yes he micros the banshee back, probably because he notices that red isn't leaving his natural. But then, only 30 seconds later, he sends the banshee in just like he was going to do earlier and it dies to the four vikings there. 13:35 - He resets his rallies to the middle of his base. However, red's army isn't anywhere near his cliff at this time! Red's army is much farther north and it looks like red will be heading for blue's natural. Red only starts flying south towards his cliff AFTER the rallies have been set. 17:30 - His dropships were never on a collision course with the hellion. He selects the dropships and immediately waypoints them to the back of red's base. They only change direction for half a second and then start flying right in the direction they were originally going. 18:15 - He unloads his drops into red's main which is already mined out. Not once during the entire game did he look through the fog of war at red's main. Even if he was hacking he wouldn't have known that there were no turrets there. This is also the first glimpse he gets of red's battlecruisers. After the battle he immediately throws down two starports. He was going siege tank heavy before this.
I don't think a single one of the points you made for the first game are valid.
Hopefully the next two games have some actual evidence or this is just a complete waste of time.
ProTech. I have detailed how everything you said about the first game is incorrect.
Care to respond?
ROFL, just ran both this clown's and Green's IPs on a tracker and they're exactly the same.
Made a .gif of the blind double expo hit in the 2nd game. Not shown in the .gif is how iGware puts his marines on the high ground out of range/vision of the PF through the fog without vision or knowledge of the expansion.
Notice how he blindly sends 1/2 the marines to the other expo before the PF can finish? Who sends 14 marines to scout a possible expo without a scan for army/tanks or anything?
This thread is just a boring back and forth now. Let's mod challenge this shit. iGware and Sorcery's friends in this thread can vouch for them under the caveat that if those two are found to be hacking, they get banned too (at least from TL). Let's see how much faith they have when they have something to lose!
My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
You: how much do you play with stellarmango lol he claims you hack Him: i never played with him before LOL i shit talked him though
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
You: how much do you play with stellarmango lol he claims you hack Him: i never played with him before LOL i shit talked him though
I've watched them play games together before -.-' He plays on my laptop lol. So iGware just shit talks people he's never met? That makes sense.
We can add lying to cheating and hacking, I guess. It's a pity that people like this have to play on our servers.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
You: how much do you play with stellarmango lol he claims you hack Him: i never played with him before LOL i shit talked him though
I've watched them play games together before -.-' He plays on my laptop lol. So iGware just shit talks people he's never met? That makes sense.
We can add lying to cheating and hacking, I guess. It's a pity that people like this have to play on our servers.
Anyways, I hope this gets resolved.
Well, actually, I asked Sorcery since Protech was calling him the hacker on iGware's account. I didn't ask the actual iGware. Generally the topic here has all been calling Sorcery the hacker on iGware's account, so that was the logical person to ask.
To whoever asked to put up: the mods can absolutely ban me if they want if there is definitive proof found of him hacking (I don't just mean a panel of random respected people deciding that he hacks)
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread yet but there's a lot of hack out there, and you don't need map hack to see what your opponent is doing. There's actually a hack that let you have a production tab, in real time, in a game etc.
I remember a post on Reddit about a guy that was streaming while hacking. Here's the vod: http://www.justin.tv/rolle3k/b/280386401 (you can see the production tab while he's playing his 1v1 ladder match.)
EDIT: Nevermind I hadn't read the "conclusions" in the first post. It's still interesting to see the vod of the hacker in first person though.
Camera lock This feature locks the camera x/y coordinates and current selected in position for replay viewing so you can take a look at your enemy without worry. Also, all future selections while on are client sided and not saved into the replay. Automatically turns off when you try using any of your units in case you accidentally leave it on.
Unit alert Alerts you when certain units types are built, at the moment I have just kept it basic because the Observer panel is far more superior. Currently it will only alert on Dark Shrine, Dark Templars and Banshees so you can be alerted instantly and worry about detecting these cloaked units.
Two pretty good reasons more high level hackers aren't noticed. Maybe the first one will be obvious in replays (ie his screen not moving and no commands issued for several seconds).
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
Which would be great, had I not JUST spoken to StellarMango on Bnet (since I have him on my list) and asked him:
You: and apparently you claim igware has admitted hacking to you? I find that kind of doubtful O_o Jason Mango (StellarMango): hasnt admitted
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
I've also talked to afew people in that channel who said the same exact thing.. but like you, not going to name names.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
You: how much do you play with stellarmango lol he claims you hack Him: i never played with him before LOL i shit talked him though
I've watched them play games together before -.-' He plays on my laptop lol. So iGware just shit talks people he's never met? That makes sense.
We can add lying to cheating and hacking, I guess. It's a pity that people like this have to play on our servers.
Anyways, I hope this gets resolved.
To whoever asked to put up: the mods can absolutely ban me if they want if there is definitive proof found of him hacking (I don't just mean a panel of random respected people deciding that he hacks)
Well let's agree that if the iGware account gets removed/reset/frozen/deleted or whatever blizzard does from the ladder then we can assume that means it was banned as a result of cheating. :D yey this thread is interesting again. I hope a mod follows through with this.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
Which would be great, had I not JUST spoken to StellarMango on Bnet (since I have him on my list) and asked him:
You: and apparently you claim igware has admitted hacking to you? I find that kind of doubtful O_o Jason Mango (StellarMango): hasnt admitted
Why would jason mango want to ruin his reputation on starcraft. Your case makes absolutely zero sense pete.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
After looking through the replays, it does look extremely suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a production tab hack.
That being said after checking his profile on SC2ranks it doesn't show that he has played any games with Stellarmango so I'm imagining this statement to be false. Here's his profile http://sc2ranks.com/us/758609/iGware
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
Which would be great, had I not JUST spoken to StellarMango on Bnet (since I have him on my list) and asked him:
You: and apparently you claim igware has admitted hacking to you? I find that kind of doubtful O_o Jason Mango (StellarMango): hasnt admitted
Why would jason mango want to ruin his reputation on starcraft. You case makes absolutely zero sense pete.
My little brother doesn't really care that other people do stupid things. He knows people who have done those win-trades just to farm portraits, and we knew people who hacked in SC1 and it's inevitably going to happen in SC2. He plays with that i-Clan (whatever you want to call them) quite often (and I've played with them as well) because they're good players, and apparently that one kid hacks.
Judging by the replays, I think iGware hacks. He's also been caught cheating in the past. He's also apparently told people in passing that he hacks. That's what it comes down to, so feel free to take that with a grain of salt.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
After looking through the replays, it does look extremely suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a production tab hack.
That being said after checking his profile on SC2ranks it doesn't show that he has played any games with Stellarmango so I'm imagining this statement to be false. Here's his profile http://sc2ranks.com/us/758609/iGware
They tend to do 4v4 random games, with a friend and a random ally. Apparently, it's easier to get to masters league in 4v4 via random teams than allied teams, so that's appealing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that will actually show on that site.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
Which would be great, had I not JUST spoken to StellarMango on Bnet (since I have him on my list) and asked him:
You: and apparently you claim igware has admitted hacking to you? I find that kind of doubtful O_o Jason Mango (StellarMango): hasnt admitted
Do you also realize how easy it is to just make that up?
Michael Ballman (haCkProTech): Hey I hack. You: No shit!
Generally when something is too good to be true, it usually is. The same logic works in this case as well. If there is nothing to be suspicious about, no one will accuse him of hacking. But if there is any reason for concern and there is a semi-decent amount of proof it is more than likely to be the case that he does in fact hack. Often in situations like this evidence is inconclusive which means people have to do their best to interpret what little they have.
It's not as if his teammate would ever admit to him hacking either because that would basically be incriminating himself. If it ever does come out that iGware is actually a hacker, his teammate should be at just much fault as him. There is no way a high masters player after 300+ games would not realise that their teammate was using some sort of hacks.
On March 12 2011 15:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My little brother (StellarMango on SC2) plays with iGware a decent amount, and I asked him if he knew anything about iGware hacking, and he pretty much just shrugged and said, "Yeah, iGware admits that he does."
After taking a look at those replays, it pretty much confirms it. And the fact that he's cheated in the past certainly doesn't help.
I'm glad someone came out with something like this, because I have a few people ( names asking not to be revealed. ) that say he admitted to hacking as well.
So at least there's something else to add to my confirmation even though i'm already 100% convinced :D
Which would be great, had I not JUST spoken to StellarMango on Bnet (since I have him on my list) and asked him:
You: and apparently you claim igware has admitted hacking to you? I find that kind of doubtful O_o Jason Mango (StellarMango): hasnt admitted
Do you also realize how easy it is to just make that up?
Michael Ballman (haCkProTech): Hey I hack. You: No shit!
??? Who have I ever defended who was caught hacking in the past? Can you name anyone from our BW past that I defended about hacking and who was caught? I never defended your hacking friend Arabia or anyone like that... I notice there's a "Protech" on that hacking website by the way (the one that starts with "d").
You can find StellarMango on bnet or something if you want, or I could take a screenshot of the conversation I had with him...
I'm just putting this out there. Back in the competitive dota scene, "Sorcery" was arguably one of the best NA players, famous for his chen play. He was on the team "Pool sorcery some tangos" or something. However, he was caught map hacking (which would explain why he had amazing map awareness).
On March 12 2011 13:50 Liquid`Ret wrote: played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
He also proxied me on a 4player map without scouting my base.
The iGware account has clearly been using maphacks... one would have to be pretty naive or in denial to think otherwise. Sad when a top player gets exposed like this, makes you question the legitimacy of online tournaments.
On March 12 2011 14:39 Validity wrote: Socery (lasthitmagic) was confirmed to have maphacked in dota. Just putting that out there.
oh wow I didnt know he was lasthitmagic.. thats unreal lol.
Just so everyone is clear.. IGware (the account owner) doesnt hack, its Sorcery playing on IGware's account with the hacks so his account wont get banned..
As far as I can tell (and this is 100% my guess, not fact), this IGware account is never meant to be a main account, its a smurf account that they are testing the hacks on. And thats how it climbed to top 5 worldwide so fast/top of 2v2 AT also.
It does not matter of you smurf onto an account, hacking is still hacking. It`s pathetic. I was doing it when i was 12 because i was too much of a bitch to play like a real man. Shame that the guy have the balls to entertain the idea of entering an honnest competition.
this thread could've led to some really good discussion and sleuthing, if not for the 5 pages of he-said/she-said silliness. It's really sad that people go to the effort of ruining a really good, fun game just for the sake of getting noticed on a leaderboard. (especially if they aren't using that leaderboard position to get into tournaments and make some money)
(On topic: that barracks wall was utterly flagrant. How would anyone in their right mind justify that? Also- drewbie's "I pretty much agree with you, but you're an @#$hole" response was hilarious.)
Is there any way we can collect as many of the replays of iGware we have? If we have at least 10 or so replays, running a simple statistical test for game-related statistics (such as # of scans used, # of worker scouting, or others that people can come up with) compared with these statistics for other top 50 Terran user replays such as Drewbie/SeleCT can reveal any glaringly obvious differences which can most likely only be explained by some sort of hack. For example, if iGware only scans on average 1 time per 15 min game, and other Terran users scan 8 +/- 1 scan per minute with a 99% confidence interval, then we know for almost certain that something's up.
Watched the 2nd replay (the 2v2 one). Watched it from his perspective to see if he did anything out of whack. Honestly, didn't see much for the first 15 minuts that couldn't be explained by some good gamesense.
However, when he counterattacked the 6 o'clock main there was a very suspicious moment. He was attacking the base and was 1 marine volley away from killing the pool and all of a sudden he moves all his troops back to defend the ramp. It made little sense from his perspective, but when I rewatched with full vision...that was the exact moment you started moving your army towards the ramp. He had no vision of that, yet managed to respond with absolute perfect timing.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I'll preface this by freely admitting that I am Sorcery/iGware's friend. That said, I hate hackers, and would not support them if I believed they hacked.
On March 12 2011 11:28 ProTech wrote: First of all I would like to make this statement before creating this thread: I am in no way shape or form saying that these players are better or worse than me. I am simply making this thread because people of TL.net wanted some proof as to why I believe they are hacking. In this thread I will give you a in depth analysis as to why they are hacking, reasoning and game knowledge of 2v2 high level master league matches. I will let you decide for yourself whether or not they are hacking. I believe that they cheat, but people will have their own opinion, but as some of these replays will show that my suspicion can be backed up. Furthermore I would like some of you to get a better understanding of how myself and bandit play. It may look as if I am not really doing anything but I'm actually doing quite a bit, feeding and microing. This is the opening statement, as to not spew this thread with any bad manner, I am simply putting my point into perspective.
As mentioned before, iGware is not playing his 1v1 Ladder games, Sorcery ( Josh Price ) is playing on the account and conducting his cheese play. First assumption of some kind of cheating.
Why does cheesing ==> cheating?
Secondly PinkPrincess (HelpImDying from thebgh.com admin) is saying that he does not like to play for money, but I'm sorry I simply do not buy it. If you are top 5 in the world playing for money is a huge motivator especially with all the time you invest into the game. Second assumption of cheating.
I even said later in the thread that he said he's played several tournaments.
Finally, iGware backs down from a huge tournament stating that his car breaks down. The reality of this, is that it was simply a lie. Disqualification was at hand when Josh Price would show up to the LAN on David Zhu's account. There are three assumptions of cheating, the shit just does not add up. Now, for the replays.
Even if this is the case, sharing accounts is not equivalent to hacking.
First of all,at 7:10 notice the timing of blue's e-bay. I notice that the banshee is about half way done, but as soon as the cloak field starts to upgrade, he immediatly make an e-bay. Notice also at this point he still has not scouted the starport, an assumption like that is ridiculous.
Seriously? He saw the guy doing the hellion/banshee build. Why would it be surprising that the guy is going banshees? Your logic doesn't make much sense - you don't need to throw down an ebay anywhere near when cloak starts...
8:10 notice how he afk's his banshee, but then as soon as the command center goes down he kills the scvs. Obviously he doesnt enter the terran's base because he can see a viking being made.
I guess the afk banshee was a bit weird, but when he came back at 9:40ish, why wouldn't he go directly there? Seems an afk-ish banshee isn't much, especially since even assassinating the scv he runs a risk with viking...
He also goes raven that quick blindly? Please. He hasn't even scouted the starport yet. It's too much of an assumption with out scouting. 11:15, notice he micros the banshee, looks into the FoW and then opts to move that banshee to the back? LoL?
Yep, and then he sends it in at 11:45 and gets it promptly killed to the Vikings waiting there. Why would he do that if he was hacking to see whether it was safe at 11:15?
13:35 notice how he starts to set up for the attack, resetting rallies into his base, moving marines to the cliff that Namchir is about to attack, fishy? Of course it is. He's constantly setting up for attacks which he has no idea is about to come. Notice also how little he scouts, but why would you need to scout if you're hacking. I don't buy it, if you're top 10 in the ladder world wide, you're going to have better scouting tactics, like NamchiR constantly checking for expos. Yet iGware scouts nothing. 16 mins into to game he doesnt even see the fucking starport.
Yet he's still caught relatively flatfooted at 14:20
17:30, as little as he scouts already, watch how he control his dropship, he knows that hellion is there, there would have been no way for him to know what the way point of that hellion would be, so he opts to pull back at the exact time, to find out where it was going and get out of range effectively(OBVIOUSLY) Notice where he places the drop. You would think in TvT that would be a fucking awful place to drop with out scouting, it's a terran's mineral line, there normally would be turrets there, incase of banshee harass, yet he doesnt even fucking scan it to see if anything is there because if there were turrets there he would have been GG'd with that drop. 20:18, look @ how he looks into the fog of war for a second, then sends all those marines to expos. this is why he didn't notice the drop in the clouded area, he was busy hacking. LOL? He goes up the ramp to avoid the planetary, then blindly sends a certain amount of marines to the other expo? knowing that shit was being made into planetary.
Conclusion: iGware showed off not only his production tab hack, but also his map hack.
Game 2: haCkProTech / tehredbandit vs iGware / Sorcery
If he has production tab hack, why would he periodically look at his ally's base early on by the way?
For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out. He starts to move out, looks into the fog of war, then moves back to his base knowing that all those reinforcements are coming so he can't save his ally. He waits for the stragglers to move into the Z base, giving himself a huge window to move out. LoL?
I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation of events. He's hesitant to move out because he knows you guys have lots of speedlings running around. It's not like he needs a hack to know that two zergs who have been going 10 pool every game and from whom he's already SEEN lots of speedlings periodically in his ally's base have a lot of lings running around.
9:06 baneling nest goes down, probably looking @ the production tab. He opts to make that many bunkers @ his door @ that time, getting ready for the bane bust.
a) he doesn't need to make bunkers right as a baneling nest goes down. He could actually just wait until nearer the time considering it takes over double the time for banelings to actually hit him as compared to building a bunker. Arguably if he did use production tab hack, he'd wait until the baneling nest is about half done. b) knowing how much you love to baneling bust every game, are you surprised he throws down bunkers? He's playing a defensive game against players he feels he's better than (i.e., he's not super afraid of entering a macro game since you guys hurt your eco with your opening builds), and who are known for hyperaggressive all-inish play.
14:02, sorcery is microing the banshee, but he doesnt scout any of the tech structures so he has no reason to believe that baneling or anything else is coming out. 14:15, watch how he's attacking my base and pulls his marines to ramp RIGHT as the baneling are coming to the front door, he started moving them before he knew they were coming, yet he can prepare for them? lol..
Admittedly that move is one of the only moves I found a bit suspicious, but I don't think it proves much since he already saw a bunch of lings outside, and could be trying to respond to the fact that they were probably going to try to come up. 16:03 notice how he is sitting at his marine location waiting for those zerglings to come and attack. Notice how when lings are around his scvs he is always moving his marines and protecting his mineral line, even though the lings are obviously not going to his mineral line, but just in case!
Wait, what? It's pretty obvious that he's going to move his marines to guard his expansion as he takes it... The second part of your statement there doesn't really make sense to me
18:17 mass baneling moves out, we kill the overlord in the mid, take a different path, so he has no idea it's coming, yet he can make bunkers @ that time, and set up for the attack? 18:34, right as the units get at the front of his base he puts all his units into the crack and set up as best he can for the massive bust, coincidence / timing? No. Hacks.
And just leaves his tanks as suicide instead of actually using them to block the crack...? If he knew you were coming at that exact second, I'd think he could do a better job at blocking it.
Conclusion: Production tab hack / Map hack. There is simply no way he can sit there and setup for everything @ the exact right time the entire game, especially since he is not using any scans. In this game there are a bunch of fishy moves that make no sense, with out constantly scouting the map and not knowing whats coming, yet he sets up for everything and executes all the moves perfectly. I don't buy it. You're decision, this is what I think.
He didn't at all properly respond to Mutas at 17:30 (lost tech lab). If he was using production tab hack, wouldn't have have noticed mutas building, and guarded it?
To star this game off, we have 10 pooled almost every game so it is safe to assume that we will be 10 pooling again, so his open is not hacking, it's just smart based on what we have been going. Also to make 3~4 bunkers incase of an early bane bust is a smart idea as well. However, as soon as the baneling nest goes down, watch the continuous mass of bunkers that are being produced.
You play this way every ZZ v ZT that goes beyond 10 pool from what I've seen, even down to sending out an extra queen to assassinate the scout overlord.
This is the first sign of hacking in this game, also notice that the zerg is going nothing but roaches, this is a complete and utter hard counter to our build this game. Notice how Sorcery has only one overlord hovering over our choke point, but that's it. They have no scouted our base @ all. Around 6:00 the baneling nest goes down, he continues to make bunkers, and pump roaches. Production tab hacking. We take a queen off the creep to kill that overlord in fear that he may scout the baneling nest, so now we have 6:56 they have literally not scouted anything on the map, so how can they know how to counter out build? Sac a fuckin lord bro, make it less obvious. 7:42 lings are coming in amass from purple, and the bunkers continue to be created, while roaches are beginning the mass. 8:23: 30 baneling morphs in, bunkers continue to make, as well as roaches to counter the massive pain they are about to feel. They have not scouted the map AT ALL THE ENTIRE GAME.
It's not like they could worker scout anyway. It's just playing ZT v ZZ without playing offensively
9:00 the baneling move out, they move their units in the perfect location to defend the attack.LoL? This is even before we get close to their base before they see whats coming. First attack is thwarted because of their perfect preparation even though they have no scouted the map at all, typical. Now after that first bust you would think, ok the two zergs know they are going mass bane ling so we will recreate our wall, that's a good assumption. However they have no scouted the map at all, so why are they not even afraid of anti air? They continue to hard counter baneling the whole time. 12:06, 30 more baneling morph in sorry 40! iGware sends out 4 scvs and look what he does as the baneling morph in. They jknow they don't have enough structures to counter 40 baneling so he sends out 4 scvs to create a huge wall, at that exact time? Coincidence? I think not. They haven't even scouted the map @ all, so they have no idea what kind of tech tree we have, but oh wait! they do, production tab hack, makes sense to me! Kid says muta, as we move out, obviously trying to cover up the fact they know what we're making? yep.
Conclusion: We could have probably won that game, but I rage quit when they built all those barracks at the exact time the baneling were morphing in, at that point I was just assuming we were at a disadvantage that's probably because I do not have any kind of hack on!!
You had a huge disadvantage, by then, what are you talking about?
At any rate, here are just some of the game that I played against them that really stick out, there are probably a lot more, when I was playing them not thinking that they cheat..
Conclusion overall: In these particular games, the only person who is obvious using cheats ( in my opinion ) is iGware. Going back to the fact that they swap account, based on the hotkeys it is save to assume that during each of these games, David Zhu is playing on Sorcery's account, and vice versa, as I do not think David Zhu is a hacker. Sorcery on the other hand is a full blown known hacker from DoTA so it would make a lot of sense that he would be cheating in starcraft 2.
If you think otherwise, that's fine. This is my perception and analysis of these games, and I think I'm pretty on point. But you can decide for yourself it's up to yoU!~!
- haCkProTech
I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
I didn't even bother to read your post HelpImDying ( aka Peter admin of thebgh.com. )
The only reason that you are defending them is because you play with them. Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting. You can NOT explain everything with your logic.
Even in this post, as you can clearly see the majority of people agree with the accusations that I am making, these replays provide solid proof. You cannot explain the moves that this guys makes in ever game.
Furthermore, once a hacker, always a hacker unless you start to stream such as TT1. If you are considered of hacking / cheating why would you just not care? Especially at that hight of a level, you have a lot of attention drawn to you, so it would be wise for you to try and clear up your name.
I personally believe that if iGware puts up a stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I wrong and you were right. However I doubt that something like this would happen, as stated even before this thread, no one even knows of igware up until he hit the top of the ladder.
So it would be safe to say that, if he provides hard proof that he is not hacking i.e: a live stream, and continues to win games like he does, then I will say that I was wrong.
[/QUOTE]
so you aren't even going to read and respond to all the significant points he made? i already see you [ProTech] as an emotional player who would be likely to attribute reasons to your losses other than the fact that you were outplayed. i've met you on ladder and i've beaten you, and each time you've lost you've responded in some BM way and left the game like some petulant child. the fact that you don't even read someone's critiques of your serious accusation of hacking just further takes away credibility from your case.
i think pinkprincess's critiques clearly showed a spurious quality to a lot of your arguments.
On March 12 2011 13:30 drewbie.root wrote: If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
Uhm, I would say exactly the opposite. If he does hack, then he is really, really bad at hiding it.
A good hacker will make sure that it will be almost impossible to accuse him.
If he sees a hidden expo he will wait a minute and then send 1 zergling/marine/w-ever to each base and voila he will find the hidden base because he was just scouting for hidden expos. This guy sends half his marines at random to an expo.
If he notices cloak and banshees are coming and he hasn't built an engineering bay he will make sure to throw a scan so that he just barely sees the starport and techlab and suddenly he can prepare his defence no problem.
And with drop placements and drop defense etc. it will appear as if he is just lucky most of the time. But he won't make awkward pullbacks out of nowhere.
Playing like that does take pretty intense multitasking however and considering his low apm I'm not surprised he can't manage it. Still, if he is hacking, then it's the second lovest form of hacking (the lowest form being those who don't try to conceal anything).
On March 12 2011 13:30 drewbie.root wrote: If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
Uhm, I would say exactly the opposite. If he does hack, then he is really, really bad at hiding it.
A good hacker will make sure that it will be almost impossible to accuse him.
If he sees a hidden expo he will wait a minute and then send 1 zergling/marine/w-ever to each base and voila he will find the hidden base because he was just scouting for hidden expos. This guy sends half his marines at random to an expo.
If he notices cloak and banshees are coming and he hasn't built an engineering bay he will make sure to throw a scan so that he just barely sees the starport and techlab and suddenly he can prepare his defence no problem.
And with drop placements and drop defense etc. it will appear as if he is just lucky most of the time. But he won't make awkward pullbacks out of nowhere.
Playing like that does take pretty intense multitasking however and considering his low apm I'm not surprised he can't manage it. Still, if he is hacking, then it's the second lovest form of hacking (the lowest form being those who don't try to conceal anything).
Well consider it this way; if he does hack (and how he climbed to 4100 pts).. thats what, at least 300+ games? He has been careful enough not to have any MAJOR evidence against him, at least none coming forward other than small suspicious things.. So lets say adding in team games, probably an estimate of 500+ games of hacking.. Theres no way you can be perfect in hiding it for that many games, you'll slip up eventually.
That bunker / baneling thing, is a slipup. Its much more than the namhcir TvT, or other games, which all are fishy but are concealed well/not obvious.
My point being; for him to even get this far without getting caught, is talent in itself. He hides it quite well, but like any hacker trying to make it on the scene (lastshadow, etc from the past), they will get caught eventually. Its only a matter of time.
On March 12 2011 13:50 Liquid`Ret wrote: played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
He also proxied me on a 4player map without scouting my base.
I feel like people have been ignoring Rets post. This bunched with the obvious facts of the OP and other statements in this thread is enough to safely say that he hacked imo. That and the fact that everyone who tries to defend the douchebag is a gaming buddy or IRL friend of his.
I'm just curious, do you know for a fact that Sorcery is playing on iGware's account? Also, I'll just say at the last Berkeley LAN, iGware beat both PainUser and Axslav 2-0, but he didn't actually attend the LAN, and played from home. I don't believe that he Berkeley CSL team was aware of whether he was an alumni, since he still had a berkeley.edu email account, and past that it's hard to verify, or requires a lot more effort than a simple CSL team is probably willing to put it. I don't think they would knowingly break the rules that way.
I will say that at the LAN, I didn't think anything of him maphacking, but now that the issue has been brought up, His builds at the tournament that I saw were 2 DT rushes, 1 Korean 4gate, 1 3 gate PvP, 1 standard PvT, and 2 hellion drop/Banshee TvT. I don't think there was anything too suspicious in the K4G, or the DT rushes. Nothing spectacular in those games that I would find suspicious. There was also nothing really spectacular in the two TvT games he played. Furthermore, in the one standard game he played, his opponent did blindly open with FE with missile turrets.
The one game where he went 3 Gate PvP did have some kinda suspicious moments. Firstly, he was able to stop the proxy pylon from going down near his base, but that's not super suspicious. The 2nd thing that I chalked up to luck was when his probe moved behind bushes near the natural on XC, RIGHT AS the Zealot that was checking for proxies moves away. It ended up winning the game for him, but this is nothing conclusive at all, but I did feel that I should bring it up.
EDIT: AFAIK, iGware was not banned from CSL for hacking, he's just not eligible to play as an alumni.
On March 12 2011 13:50 Liquid`Ret wrote: played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
He also proxied me on a 4player map without scouting my base.
I feel like people have been ignoring Rets post. This bunched with the obvious facts of the OP and other statements in this thread is enough to safely say that he hacked imo. That and the fact that everyone who tries to defend the douchebag is a gaming buddy or IRL friend of his.
To be fair, Ret and Sorcery have a "history" that has nothing to do with game play. I'm not saying that's behind his accusation, but it would be inaccurate to say that they are merely people who happened to randomly run into each other in ladder games.
On March 12 2011 13:30 drewbie.root wrote: If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
Uhm, I would say exactly the opposite. If he does hack, then he is really, really bad at hiding it.
A good hacker will make sure that it will be almost impossible to accuse him.
If he sees a hidden expo he will wait a minute and then send 1 zergling/marine/w-ever to each base and voila he will find the hidden base because he was just scouting for hidden expos. This guy sends half his marines at random to an expo.
If he notices cloak and banshees are coming and he hasn't built an engineering bay he will make sure to throw a scan so that he just barely sees the starport and techlab and suddenly he can prepare his defence no problem.
And with drop placements and drop defense etc. it will appear as if he is just lucky most of the time. But he won't make awkward pullbacks out of nowhere.
Playing like that does take pretty intense multitasking however and considering his low apm I'm not surprised he can't manage it. Still, if he is hacking, then it's the second lovest form of hacking (the lowest form being those who don't try to conceal anything).
Well consider it this way; if he does hack (and how he climbed to 4100 pts).. thats what, at least 300+ games? He has been careful enough not to have any MAJOR evidence against him, at least none coming forward other than small suspicious things.. So lets say adding in team games, probably an estimate of 500+ games of hacking.. Theres no way you can be perfect in hiding it for that many games, you'll slip up eventually.
That bunker / baneling thing, is a slipup. Its much more than the namhcir TvT, or other games, which all are fishy but are concealed well/not obvious.
My point being; for him to even get this far without getting caught, is talent in itself. He hides it quite well, but like any hacker trying to make it on the scene (lastshadow, etc from the past), they will get caught eventually. Its only a matter of time.
Except that slipping up once doesn't mean you get automatically banned. People actually need to notice that you hack and report it to blizzard. Seeing as how few people in the scene actually analyse their own losses it's very plausible to think that no one has caught him on his obvious mistakes. And even as you say that we now have two credible accusations against him.
Blizzard is pretty bad at catching hackers, I caught 2 myself and told david kim about them, then he forwarded to the hack department. Sad thing is they have a system to report hackers, but never seem to check it or get to it.
Either way, i've played iGware a bunch and he does play strange, he seemed like a nice guy to me for what its worth but he did make me check a couple of replays, only making me more suspicious, however, in the replays I watched, I didn't see him looking into the fog of war, which is obviously a big big tell. but I am pretty sure he was reacting very well to unit production, and I believe I've also been a victim of the good ol' proxy rax w/o scouting technique.
Also if HuK says neither of these guys have Honor, I believe it, and Honor is a good skill toi have.
On March 12 2011 13:50 Liquid`Ret wrote: played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
He also proxied me on a 4player map without scouting my base.
I feel like people have been ignoring Rets post. This bunched with the obvious facts of the OP and other statements in this thread is enough to safely say that he hacked imo. That and the fact that everyone who tries to defend the douchebag is a gaming buddy or IRL friend of his.
To be fair, Ret and Sorcery have a "history" that has nothing to do with game play. I'm not saying that's behind his accusation, but it would be inaccurate to say that they are merely people who happened to randomly run into each other in ladder games.
Care to explain that history instead of making blanket statements to suit your own agenda? Unless you can give some proof I'll take respected member of the community and serious gamer Ret's word for it before yours any day.
On March 12 2011 13:50 Liquid`Ret wrote: played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
He also proxied me on a 4player map without scouting my base.
I feel like people have been ignoring Rets post. This bunched with the obvious facts of the OP and other statements in this thread is enough to safely say that he hacked imo. That and the fact that everyone who tries to defend the douchebag is a gaming buddy or IRL friend of his.
To be fair, Ret and Sorcery have a "history" that has nothing to do with game play. I'm not saying that's behind his accusation, but it would be inaccurate to say that they are merely people who happened to randomly run into each other in ladder games.
If you're trying to say that Ret's point isn't very credible because he is biased, the same thing can be said about yourself.
Accusations like this can destroy a reputation. Lets see the stream and whether he can maintain his rank whilst streaming.
Unless you have compelling evidence for cheating, (IMO the evidence so far has been circumstantial at best) there is not anything more you can really say or do.
I've played him in 2s a while back, and noticed nothing strange. Probably because for one it was a long time ago and also because it was a short game where he and another player cheesed us.
Anyway based on what ret, catz, etc. are saying I am convinced myself that whoever is playing those games on iGware's account is hacking.
OP I think it would be beneficial if you quoted some of the posts that are on pages not everyone will check back onto the original post. For example the posts about blind proxies on 4 player maps, and the one where a poster describes how advanced some of these hacks are, that prevent us from noticing when a player checks their fog of war. That is a HUGE thing that I feel would better your case because the number one thing defenders of iGware are saying is that they don't notice him checking fog (though this could also be explained by knowing he doesn't really need to if he has production tab and mini map hacks, he can just glance to see what units are being made and where they are moving on the mini map)
On March 12 2011 16:59 IamaGrapeMan wrote: so you aren't even going to read and respond to all the significant points he made? i already see you [ProTech] as an emotional player who would be likely to attribute reasons to your losses other than the fact that you were outplayed. i've met you on ladder and i've beaten you, and each time you've lost you've responded in some BM way and left the game like some petulant child. the fact that you don't even read someone's critiques of your serious accusation of hacking just further takes away credibility from your case.
i think pinkprincess's critiques clearly showed a spurious quality to a lot of your arguments.
On the contrary, Protech is probably so convinced by his own carefully detailed account of events that some of these other arguments seem contrived, a few even childish. Protech isn't going to rehash the same tired points at the drop of a pin just to rescue ignoramus non-believers. An RTS player is a skilled interpreter of events. Protech realizes that if you weren't persuaded by his surgical wall of text, you simply don't get it.
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
I am unconvinced. In the third game the lack of scouting is slightly suspicious but past a certain point you pen them in with speedlings and scouting isn't really an option. Also, if you're droning up and taking expos, going for a bajillion bunkers isn't entirely unreasonable. Arguably many things would have "directly countered" your build, banshees among them, siege tanks would also have been an option.
And I'm definitely not biased just because you haCk mofos BM me every time I win a game.
Edit: At this point I cannot tell if I'm just seeing things but the lack of scouting really is bizarre. No scans, no sacing overlords. Also the infini-bunker wall is similarly bizarre, though not necessarily proof of cheating. Normal people use rax instead.
Protech is probably the most annoying poster I have ever read 7 pages of.
I think it's definitely possible that this guy is hacking, but you are acting like a 12 year old and being inflammatory and picking fights and BMing everyone who disagrees with you instead of actually listening to them is not a good way to spread the truth if you indeed are right.
"I am not even going to bother to read this" "guilty until proven innocent"
Okay, then let's try this. Everyone in this thread is a hacker. If you can prove that you're not, I am just not gonna read what you type or accept anything you say. If you agree with me, you obviously aren't a hacker.
people need to calm down and the word "obvious" has never been more overused.
All the Liquid[Name] Players who have come in have given evidence for what they think is going on.Then they left. And they have in those short posts given more weight to ProTech's cause than every post he has ever made onthe subject. Take a deep breath or something. Go for a walk. Jesus.
I have also heard they were hackers by a mutual friend, Protech. He has played several games against Sorcery and this guy and he claims the same thing.
On March 12 2011 18:37 Eknoid4 wrote: Protech is probably the most annoying poster I have ever read 7 pages of.
I think it's definitely possible that this guy is hacking, but you are acting like a 12 year old and being inflammatory and picking fights and BMing everyone who disagrees with you instead of actually listening to them is not a good way to spread the truth if you indeed are right.
"I am not even going to bother to read this" "guilty until proven innocent"
Okay, then let's try this. Everyone in this thread is a hacker. If you can prove that you're not, I am just not gonna read what you type or accept anything you say. If you agree with me, you obviously aren't a hacker.
people need to calm down and the word "obvious" has never been more overused.
All the Liquid[Name] Players who have come in have given evidence for what they think is going on.Then they left. And they have in those short posts given more weight to ProTech's cause than every post he has ever made onthe subject. Take a deep breath or something. Go for a walk. Jesus.
Hey, watched the replays without reading your explanations before, just wanted to see if I am able to notice something that may prove that he's cheating:
I think your ebay/cloak- timing- statement in game 1 is wrong, both are starting at about the same time, the ebay slightly earlier so this is no point. You should probably remove this. However, the other things you mentioned can be interpreted as cheating. In my opinion, the most noticable point is the marines being sent to the bottom PF's. I can understand his first move: he sends two marines to scout the bottom bases(and harass if sth is there and undefended). But shortly after he stops them, moves about 10-15 marines to the bottom(without having scouted) and furthermore moves them to the high ground in range of the PF. Assuming that he is not cheating, what is the reasoning behind this(I think it's almost impossible to "sense" not only one but two PF's, isn't it?).
I think you mentioned everything regarding game 2, I just want to add one thing that I considered as strange: At 11:12 he scouts three lings moving towards his base with his banshee and immediately pulls all scv's to defend. Considering the amout of lings that followed the three he scouted, this was a good move but how did he know that such a big force was incoming? If this is just common sense then I apologize, I just wouldn't react in that way when I see three lings for such a short amount of time.
Nothing to add to game 3.
All in all, I have to say it's strange that playing in top masters level forgives scouting so little(I'm quite sure that people at platinum/lower diamond scout more than he did in these three replays). He probably has a tl.net- account so maybe he can speak out on these accusations and clarify some points/explain the reasoning behind the actions that are being accused.
On March 12 2011 18:37 Eknoid4 wrote: Protech is probably the most annoying poster I have ever read 7 pages of.
I think it's definitely possible that this guy is hacking, but you are acting like a 12 year old and being inflammatory and picking fights and BMing everyone who disagrees with you instead of actually listening to them is not a good way to spread the truth if you indeed are right.
"I am not even going to bother to read this" "guilty until proven innocent"
Okay, then let's try this. Everyone in this thread is a hacker. If you can prove that you're not, I am just not gonna read what you type or accept anything you say. If you agree with me, you obviously aren't a hacker.
people need to calm down and the word "obvious" has never been more overused.
All the Liquid[Name] Players who have come in have given evidence for what they think is going on.Then they left. And they have in those short posts given more weight to ProTech's cause than every post he has ever made onthe subject. Take a deep breath or something. Go for a walk. Jesus.
:/ React to rage with more rage. Not advisable.
There isn't any kind of anger or rage in my post at all? I say he's annoying. Eating a cheeseburger and having the top half fall off because it was put together poorly is annoying, but I don't know many people who would get mad over it.
Interesting read. Based on people's experiences (the blind proxy stories) with iGware and the facts that his apm and macro are really low compared to other top players make this a suspicious case for certain. Since this guy is currently doing extremely well rising up to the top like crazy without the "skills" others at the top posses, it makes a good load of sense suspicion is rising.
Accusations or not, if a hacker hacks he'll be caught eventually. Especially in a game like SC2, where tournament play/streams are inevitable things if you wanna truly show you're real top material. Comparing it with football for a second: the FIFA has a world ranking of countries. Imagine a football player saying "I'm not going to the world cup, 'cause I'm just not into the whole best of the world thing. Our ranking is the highest anyway". Keep on dreaming. It means nothing. And if that player uses some kind of "ball hack" (getting a bit of a tricky comparisson now, but stick with me!) the whole world will witness it. And besides the fact the whole world will hate him, the person to hate him most is probably himself. Because he knows he hasn't been any good ever anyway. Sucks to be him. And if anyone ever asks him about what he did in the past, and he tells the story of him being a great football player, there's always going to be someone asking for his name and pointing out he was just a lowsy cheater.
That's why I dislike cheating. And after reading another thread about iGware in the past I got all excited 'cause people pointed out he pulled crazy stuff. Reading this thread makes that positive view turn a bit around. I hope it isn't true. Since hackers getting high up can damage the SC2 scene as a whole as well. Kinda like cycling is a known "who has the best doctor to drug" fest. Time will tell. Although the current state of the SC2 scene is far from such a scenario. So that makes me happy!
You're wrong if you watch those and think he was hacking from these replays.
Game one: I saw that tech lab and factory and thought banshee instantly, it was a dead giveaway when the building scouted no add ons on the factor or rax, where is the gas going? And that's where I would drop marines, on the mineral line. And he ends up losing that match, do you have any idea how much shit he lost to blue flame hellion drops that if he was hacking he could have stropped, that match looked completely normal no hacking. Even if it was just a production tab hack he would have prepared for BCs before he just "oh shit" ran into them
Game two: He moves back to the ramp at 14 minutes because it's obvious you won't just let his marines kill your whole base, doesn't take a genius that you will come up the ramp to kill them, and you guys are the whoreist zerg people to play against, when your opponents double 10 pool mass ling it's obvious that your opponents aren't manner enough to play a macro game, so of course you prepare for banelings.
Game three: there are over 9000 lings just fucking chilling outside of his base what is he thinking they are doing there just scouting ahead? Those lings being there made it so obvious that a baneling bust was coming, iGware is just thinking while he plays :O stop QQ about your double Z whoreish baneling bust not working and make a real build instead of complaining about hacking.
TL;DR: OP is butt hurt about losing with his super gay 2v2 style and iGware was just thinking, these particular replays at least do absolutely nothing to prove iGware a hacker.
The most compelling evidence of his hacking is simply that he is number 2 on the ladder and seems to play very average.
On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote: You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
Game one: I saw that tech lab and factory and thought banshee instantly, it was a dead giveaway when the building scouted no add ons on the factor or rax, where is the gas going? And that's where I would drop marines, on the mineral line. And he ends up losing that match, do you have any idea how much shit he lost to blue flame hellion drops that if he was hacking he could have stropped, that match looked completely normal no hacking. Even if it was just a production tab hack he would have prepared for BCs before he just "oh shit" ran into them
Game two: He moves back to the ramp at 14 minutes because it's obvious you won't just let his marines kill your whole base, doesn't take a genius that you will come up the ramp to kill them, and you guys are the whoreist zerg people to play against, when your opponents double 10 pool mass ling it's obvious that your opponents aren't manner enough to play a macro game, so of course you prepare for banelings.
Game three: there are over 9000 lings just fucking chilling outside of his base what is he thinking they are doing there just scouting ahead? Those lings being there made it so obvious that a baneling bust was coming, iGware is just thinking while he plays :O stop QQ about your double Z whoreish baneling bust not working and make a real build instead of complaining about hacking.
TL;DR: OP is butt hurt about losing with his super gay 2v2 style and iGware was just thinking, these particular replays at least do absolutely nothing to prove iGware a hacker.
Game one: Ask yourself, if you know your opponent is going to blue-flame drop you because you're hacking. How would you go about stopping it without looking sus?
Game three: I think the point is that, he didn't see the 9000 lings chilling outside his base. And just blindly reacted to the 'great wall of china' barracks set up + 6 bunkers. Watch from his pov and not just x8 speed through it.
On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote: You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
you're saying drewbie a low player? There are many players who agrees with OP.. Do you think he'll make it obvious that he hacks? Of course not~
From these replays* I'll add that now. perhaps he hacks in other games though. Not to mention I read Drewbie's post, he says pretty much the same thing I do.
And @ Mie_vet
The battlecruiser example in game 1 is something he could have stopped from the production tab hack
And in game 3 he sees some zerglings outside, and if there are that many I would assume there are more, especially with the tendencies of 2v2. I've played him in a 2v2, it was a while ago so no replay, but we went Marine Maurader, and they countered with hellion roach, definitely wasn't hacking then.
I'm not saying he doesn't hack, just that these replays are bad examples.
And shit no one on TL likes being called low level, I'll just delete that.
@Kasumimi If you are being sarcastic and asking me if I watched the replay in first person I did, I watched all the replays in first person before reading the OP, to be sure I was unbiased.
The example you give of @ 20:30ish is the most compelling evidence. But he had ample reason to suspect a 3rd and 4th base, and that a planetary would be there, while this is good evidence, it is not enough for a conviction
On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote: You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
Did the high-level player look at the replays in first person? Looking at fog of war and acting accordingly doesn't bother you at all? Also keep in mind he is trying to hide he is blatantly hacking. He won't stare at fog, but he can glance at the minimap or that production tab hack I keep hearing about and draw his conclusions. The blue flame hellions slipping through happened bacause there's too many information to parse.
Seriously the 20:18 mark on the 1v1 rep just screams he is cheating. Unless he had the insight and the calmness to know there was a PF expansion and send a group of marines, split them, crossmap, on the ramp, with 2 clicks, without scouting.
*Edit: Reading through the thread a bit more careful I would like to add the OP is acting like a baby and overacting to any negative post. My personal advice to you Mr.ProTech, being hostile doesn't help you get your message through.
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games. you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games. you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
If he was right about those people then that actually stands to his credit. Was there a conclusion either way?
i think its kind of cute all the low post people here in the thread. hackprotech is a jobber but that doesnt mean what he says has no merit. ive played igware numerous times and yea, some shit smelled a little funny. never bothered to save the replays because i assumed it was luck, but who knows.
the thread is good because it puts him under the spotlight. it is still too early to make any accusations, but i wouldnt be surprised either way. these kind of hacks are by no means undetectable, and being in the top 200 and what not i am confident he will get the ban hammer if he was indeed cheating.
-He teams with someone who is a known hacker from other games, or it's even the same person. -He flies to the top of the ladder all of the sudden while noone knows who he is. -He play like someone in diamond but has 'magical best-in-the-world game-sense' even though he hardly scouts. -He doesn't attend any live events. -Multiple well-known players have stated that they played suspicious games against him.
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on here. I can't believe there's still people defending this guy.
Hi. David here, owner of the very controvertial iGware account. I started it as a non-serious account to have fun. That being said, I'd like to clarify a few points to the sc2 community.
1) yes, Josh Price (Sorcery, aka LastHitMagic in DOTA) hacks 2) Josh was the one playing solo on my account 3) Typically when we played team games, he played on my account and I played on his account (so the iGware in those team games was him). A comparison of hotkeys with the 1v1 and 2v2 will bear this out.
I apologize for my actions and will be leaving behind iGware for good. Lastly, I'm sincerely sorry to those who were deceived or hurt by our actions,
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on here. I can't believe there's still people defending this guy.
I think the people defending him, havent actually seen the replays at all and are just playing devils advocate for "fun".
If you do watch the replays presented here, there can be absolutely no doubt that this player is indeed maphacking. No player in the history of Brood War nor SC2 has shown this kind of Houdini game sense before.
If you are too lazy to watch the replays, then really dont bother commenting
For myself, I'm sorry I spent so much time defending Sorcery. I genuinely believed him and mutual friends who told me he did not hack (and to be clear - a lot of the evidence Protech presented here I still do not believe is particularly conclusive). I saw my friend under attack from evidence that I did not believe was particularly conclusive, and thus I jumped in to start defending him.
What is conclusive to me is that I spoke with iGware and others on Bnet (prior to this series of confessions being posted), and they told me that Josh does indeed hack [in fact, I first heard it a couple hours ago]. After this, I talked with him for a while, and he agreed to post the confession above (not that I specifically endorse the contents - but I felt that he should post a confession here, as opposed to simply disappearing or trying to continue hiding it). I do not believe there is any excuse for ever hacking. While iGware and others acted as enablers by keeping his secrets from me and others, it was ultimately his decision to hack, and no excuses can account for that. I'm sorry that the situation ended up this way, but I am glad that the truth ultimately came out. I believe that Sorcery is a genuinely good player (even apart from hacking), and I hope he will try to demonstrate this by showing his skill in 1v1 ladder while always live streaming his games as he plays (I and others helped him earlier this evening with setting up a livestream, as at that point I believed him when he claimed not to hack and wanted to help him demonstrate it to others)
I said earlier if people determined conclusively that he hacked, you could ban me; I stand by that if you wish (I'm not going to beg to be banned, but I cannot rightfully complain if you do, considering I said the words)
Note: I confirm that the above people posting are the REAL posters, even though they only have 1 post each. It's not some troll attempt by people.
On March 12 2011 20:04 State wrote: Did you hack at the Berkeley LAN too?
Was that you, Sorcery, playing on iGware's account?
Yes, it was Sorcery playing on iGware's account.
I cannot say for sure since they did not include me in their hack discussions knowing my feelings about hackers, but I would be extremely surprised if he did not hack in it.
-He teams with someone who is a known hacker from other games, or it's even the same person. -He flies to the top of the ladder all of the sudden while noone knows who he is. -He play like someone in diamond but has 'magical best-in-the-world game-sense' even though he hardly scouts. -He doesn't attend any live events. -Multiple well-known players have stated that they played suspicious games against him.
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on here. I can't believe there's still people defending this guy.
I was bored enough to read this whole damn thread, and after seeing all the hack-deniers end up with their foot in their mouths with the confessions, I deem it completely worth the time.
Also, said hack-deniers should probably look into what constitutes evidence. This isn't Descartes land.
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games. you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
If he was right about those people then that actually stands to his credit. Was there a conclusion either way?
i would say protech is right 10% of the time. normally he would cry hack when he's raging like crazy
-He teams with someone who is a known hacker from other games, or it's even the same person. -He flies to the top of the ladder all of the sudden while noone knows who he is. -He play like someone in diamond but has 'magical best-in-the-world game-sense' even though he hardly scouts. -He doesn't attend any live events. -Multiple well-known players have stated that they played suspicious games against him.
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on here. I can't believe there's still people defending this guy.
LOL, Sorc gets caught hacking in yet another game. No "I had it on for TDA" excuses here buddy.
That said, this really doesn't surprise. Josh has been shady as hell in every game he plays. Hope I never have to see him anywhere again. Grats to OP for finding him out.
-He teams with someone who is a known hacker from other games, or it's even the same person. -He flies to the top of the ladder all of the sudden while noone knows who he is. -He play like someone in diamond but has 'magical best-in-the-world game-sense' even though he hardly scouts. -He doesn't attend any live events. -Multiple well-known players have stated that they played suspicious games against him.
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on here. I can't believe there's still people defending this guy.
sc2 / sjow hardly scouts+good game sense
good game sense from playing...
You solved it, he's actually not a hacker that makes sense.
Had they not admitted to cheating, they'd still be defended even now by players who think that all evidence is ever merely circumstantial. That was so pathetic to read.
On March 12 2011 20:29 Jinsho wrote: Had they not admitted to cheating, they'd still be defended even now by players who think that all evidence is ever merely circumstantial. That was so pathetic to read.
Agree, but people werent defending him because they actually believed he wasent cheating.
They were defending him just to be a "e rebel", go against the grain, start arguments, ROAR!
If you made a topic telling people that grass indeed is green in most places, you would get 30+ pages of people telling you that you are wrong, because in some parts of Indonesia there is blue gra... etc etc.
The current maphack by a certain guy actually gives out a visual and a audio warning when someone makes a banshee, DT or any unit that needs a more specific way to counter, this guy was clearly using that, so he did not even need to scout his opponnents base becuase the production tab is there to tell him everything needed to know. Anyone who took the time to watch the replays saw he was maphacking, clear as day
Sure, but that doesn't close the holes in the game design.
Man, it's nearly impossible to make a game that cannot be hacked in. If someone puts in the time and the effort, you will find a way to exploit it, despite how much protection the company puts into the game. I don't know what the size of blizzards team is, but they're against thousands, if not tens of thousands of people trying to find cracks in the game, it's inevitable.
Sure, but that doesn't close the holes in the game design.
Man, it's nearly impossible to make a game that cannot be hacked in. If someone puts in the time and the effort, you will find a way to exploit it, despite how much protection the company puts into the game. I don't know what the size of blizzards team is, but they're against thousands, if not tens of thousands of people trying to find cracks in the game, it's inevitable.
HoN is un-maphackable, mainly due tot he fact that all of the information is stored on servers instead of being broadcast to every player in the game.
On March 12 2011 20:29 Jinsho wrote: Had they not admitted to cheating, they'd still be defended even now by players who think that all evidence is ever merely circumstantial. That was so pathetic to read.
To be fair, until the admission, the evidence given was circumstantial though - by themselves almost all of the little bits of dubious behaviour had alternative, innocent explanations. I've gambled by making proxy structures on Metalopolis before scouting the bad guy's base, for instance. (of course my luck being what it is, the proxy ended up being further from the bad guy's base than my own base!). Circumstantial evidence is still good evidence, it just can't establish guilt on its own.
Of course, as more of this evidence piles up, the innocent explanation becomes more tenuous and less likely.
Don't have much time for all the reps, but I watched the third rep, and it is DAMN obvious. Combining that, and with what Ret said, for example, I can laugh to all people that try to defend that ( or those ) pathetic hacker/s. I left competitive CS because of hacking, later on competitive DotA because of hacking, I hope it does not repeat with sc2.
On March 12 2011 21:10 Holdinga wrote: Don't have much time for all the reps, but I watched the third rep, and it is DAMN obvious. Combining that, and with what Ret said, for example, I can laugh to all people that try to defend that ( or those ) pathetic hacker/s. I left competitive CS because of hacking, later on competitive DotA because of hacking, I hope it does not repeat with sc2.
You do realize there were like 4 actual good competeive players that hacked in dota, right? Two of them from TEG, and then there was Sorcery(This guy here)? No reason to say dota was plagued by hacking -.-
On March 12 2011 15:57 PinkPrincess wrote: To whoever asked to put up: the mods can absolutely ban me if they want if there is definitive proof found of him hacking (I don't just mean a panel of random respected people deciding that he hacks)
Just out of curiosity, do you regret saying that, now that they've confessed it openly on this forum? Obviously, I know you wanted to back up your friends, but that kinda sucks
On March 12 2011 15:57 PinkPrincess wrote: To whoever asked to put up: the mods can absolutely ban me if they want if there is definitive proof found of him hacking (I don't just mean a panel of random respected people deciding that he hacks)
Just out of curiosity, do you regret saying that, now that they've confessed it openly on this forum? Obviously, I know you wanted to back up your friends, but that kinda sucks
I would regret it if I ended up banned, although I wouldn't try to circumvent it and start popping up on other accounts.
I don't regret saying what I said, even though I was wrong - I was standing up for my friends at a point when I believed they were falsely accused. Even if there's reasonable circumstancial evidence against a friend (but no hard evidence), if he swears to me that he didn't do it and has relatively plausible excuses then I'm inclined to believe him as opposed to the accuser (who I should note I have a mutually antagonistic relationship with going back into BW times). Prior to this incident, I did consider Sorcery one of my best SC2 friends.
holy crap, just by maphacking some 60apm jobber got #1 that quick on US ladder? And in all reality all the evidence against him (bar the fact that his mechanics was horrible and he made absolutely no attempt to scout ever) was pretty much completely dismissable because of his ridiculous hacks like that 'camara hider'?
Am i the only one scared for the sc2 competitions online right now? I mean, there's plenty of 'unknowns' out there (look at the TSL) that are springing up out of nowhere, and even top players are by no means above hacking (just look at broodwars 'top players' hacking history)... Really makes me question the credibility of ANYTHING not done in a LAN setting :\.
I mean honestly, if this clown had decent apm (>150 sc2gears apm) and had been around at least somewhat before exploding to #1 (say had a few online tournament placings here and there) and slowly worked his way up week by week instead of just insta #1'ing it and having ridiculous 90% winrates in 2v2's, who would've really suspected him?
This is actually really depressing for me personally, I didn't realize sc2 hacks had got this serious already
The scary thing about this is that people are so naive that they actually believe some random no-namer can come from nowhere and rape his way up to the global top 10 with diamond mechanics and zero scouting. Seriously people, use some common sense, if a completely unknown guy comes from nowhere and reaches top 10 globally that in itself is suspicous enough, combine that with numerous top players claiming that his play was very suspicious, it's seriously not even worth discussing.
Throwing down 6 bunkers without even scouting the lings/blings, seriously.
On March 12 2011 20:29 Jinsho wrote: Had they not admitted to cheating, they'd still be defended even now by players who think that all evidence is ever merely circumstantial. That was so pathetic to read.
To be fair, until the admission, the evidence given was circumstantial though - by themselves almost all of the little bits of dubious behaviour had alternative, innocent explanations. I've gambled by making proxy structures on Metalopolis before scouting the bad guy's base, for instance. (of course my luck being what it is, the proxy ended up being further from the bad guy's base than my own base!). Circumstantial evidence is still good evidence, it just can't establish guilt on its own.
Of course, as more of this evidence piles up, the innocent explanation becomes more tenuous and less likely.
Your analogy is false. There is no way you will be able to attain rank 2 in NA if you gamble that way, as your rank most probably demonstrates. Thus claiming that him blindly proxying can have some "innocent" explanation relies on premises that are not coherent with the reality of the situation. Indeed the evidence is based upon circumstance, but those circumstances are quite damning.
Just look at how he plays even without 100% proof he's hacking he plays so bad with completely random decision making, like that would ever get you to R1 NA.
If I do that I get demoted to platinum -.- just saying
On March 12 2011 21:10 Holdinga wrote: Don't have much time for all the reps, but I watched the third rep, and it is DAMN obvious. Combining that, and with what Ret said, for example, I can laugh to all people that try to defend that ( or those ) pathetic hacker/s. I left competitive CS because of hacking, later on competitive DotA because of hacking, I hope it does not repeat with sc2.
You do realize there were like 4 actual good competeive players that hacked in dota, right? Two of them from TEG, and then there was Sorcery(This guy here)? No reason to say dota was plagued by hacking -.-
Just to let you know, the two guys from TeG that were hacking had a direct influence on my "career" since I was in my country's best dota team and lost to teg pretty badly and we were very demotivated to keep on playing because we would always beat teg in the past, and when that KENGA guy joined their team they suddenly became strong and raped us. (All of these things are waaay back in the past like 2-3-4 years ago btw)
Aside from that, I have a "friend" that plays almost everyday for the past 5 years public dotas in garena. He has used a hack almost everytime he plays (and he is still a horrible player). He is also pretty stupid, and if a stupid guy like him can get his hands on a hack, then i guess everyone can. I also started disrespecting him a lot IRL because of that and dont like him anymore as a person (some people may say this is not right of me because they would say it's just a game, chill you shouldnt be that harsh to him, BUT, yes it IS just a game, however if you are a hacker in a game, then you are an ASSHOLE real life, and you lie to people etc... there is a lot I could say about this, but i dont really want to waste your time)
Town wins! This game seemed to have a pretty unfair Red:Blue ratio if my estimates are correct. Mafia almost succeeded in misguiding several Greens and Blues but clearly not enough.
In all seriousness, however good it is for the community to be able to thwart cheaters like this, I'd recommend caution to everyone who feels the need to express themselves so caustically, regardless of which 'side' they're representing. A vast majority of the posts in this thread seem unnecessary and many don't move the discussion forward in either direction - be it a lynch or a save. (In fact, more than one person who was correct about iGware has embarrassed themselves through their behaviour in this thread.)
I don't think you people know what circumstantial evidence is.
You're really not making a good epistemological defense on what constitutes justified belief, without some sort of absurd idea of "hard" proof which ranges from anywhere from empirical (which the replay showed, and more blatant ones would show only to a more obvious extent, but the venue of evidence is the same) or some sort of absurd Cartesian proof that is effectively impossible.
The vast majority of serious criminals are put away on "circumstantial" evidence. I'm honestly curious what the people saying that it isn't an apparent hack thinks would be reasonable evidence? If replays of him doing it aren't enough, I'm curious what would convince you?
If you let a pro player use hacks, do they become unbeatable? Sorcerer doesn't strike me as a great player, yet he was still able to get very far with it. What if some participant in the TSL3 decided to hack, would he be able to easily win the tournament?
On March 12 2011 22:39 Grumbels wrote: If you let a pro player use hacks, do they become unbeatable? Sorcerer doesn't strike me as a great player, yet he was still able to get very far with it. What if some participant in the TSL3 decided to hack, would he be able to easily win the tournament?
sadly i think if the player was slow and methodical they could do just that...imo this whole event highlights a sad fact for non-lan based esports...cheaters will go undetected and defended until they are done winning with the cheat or get cold busted by giving tells that a smarter player may be able to avoid for some time...tsl, bliz, etc need a back door to the replay to detect for shit like this
If anything, this proves how important scouting/information and army control/movement based on that is in SC2. A decent player with MH can get #1 server beating alot of pros without being blantly obviously maphacking/countering builds.
I have a question, why not ninja scout everything anyway since they know it is there so people don't catch on to their shenanigans? They are dumb enough to hack and cheat, but still can't figure out that people MAY catch on to their blind, no scouting and hard countering of their opponents strategy.
Good riddance. I think any form of cheating in such a competitive game should be given no second chances. I would hate to be these guys and go to sleep at night knowing I've wasted thousands of games, not to mention, hours upon hours of my time beating people who are better than me due to a third party application.
Sad to think he is ranked #1 in his division with a 60% win ratio while cheating and a 75% win ratio in over 3400 league games on battlenet. Wish it didn't take this long to catch such filthy douche bag(s).
That is a damn shame. SC2 isn't the game to get away with it. So many eyes. Good thing for the game/eSports as a whole it came out, got grabbed by the neck and choked to confess. Big Brother SC2 community watches thee. But in another way a sad day nevertheless.
The only thing i don't get from all of this is why when i check Sorcery and igWare on the sc2ranks site the name Hackprotech keeps popping up in various teams on their same side, i saw one where he is in a 2v2 team with Sorcery thats on a 25-0 streak, anyways, i hate hackers.
What scares me is that I just realized how powerful the production tab hack can be. If you are an intelligent player who scouts what he sees the opponent doing via production you can always look like you are a legit player with ridiculous game sense. It's a million times more dangerous to online play than map hack
On March 12 2011 23:20 floor exercise wrote: What scares me is that I just realized how powerful the production tab hack can be. If you are an intelligent player who scouts what he sees the opponent doing via production you can always look like you are a legit player with ridiculous game sense. It's a million times more dangerous to online play than map hack
Yeah, that is pretty huge 0o
Not only is it infinitely harder to catch but against races like Zerg you know EXACTLY what they are doing, down to their exact drone count.
I hope there is something Blizzard could do, at least with Maphacks the guy just can't keep hovering over your base all game long without being caught.
This is a good reason why tournaments should be run in a LAN setting. For complete 100% security they should be offline, but unfortunately SC2 is not structured to run that way. LAN needs to come back.
Aren't the NASL qualifiers online? I sincerely hope they have ways to thwart hacking so that stuff like this never happens.
oh what a joyful read. a good old full blown hack drama. how much i loved those back in the bwcl days. also it had it all, well presented accusation, many nay sayers, some big guys chiming in to support the idea and it ended with a nice finale of them confessing it. great.
now blizz just needs to delete all their accounts and we are good to go.
but ya its a big issue in sc2. stuff doesnt get detected and its entirely possible to make completly undetectable hacks for sc2 (there was a discussion about bnets infrastructure back in the beta days). dunno if the community can do anything against that with some launcher or whatever but guess no one but R1ch knows that and even then i guess special private hacks would still be unaffected.
i always thought it would be stupidly easy to get into top 200 with a hack.didnt expect that evry scrub can get to #1 tho. guess thats a side effect of sc2 beeing way more "glorified rock/paper/scissor" then bw
On March 12 2011 22:31 cubert wrote: I hope they will be banned everywhere forever, not the same as broodwar's 1-2 years ban.
Absolutely agree. There is no excuse for hacking. People that hack do not deserve to play the game ever.
In this instance, I'm glad Blizzard merged the B.Net accounts so when they do actually ban someone, EVERY game they own gets banned. And even if they have separate B.Net IDs/Emails, they have to buy the game again in order to play. :D
On March 12 2011 22:31 cubert wrote: I hope they will be banned everywhere forever, not the same as broodwar's 1-2 years ban.
Absolutely agree. There is no excuse for hacking. People that hack do not deserve to play the game ever.
In this instance, I'm glad Blizzard merged the B.Net accounts so when they do actually ban someone, EVERY game they own gets banned. And even if they have separate B.Net IDs/Emails, they have to buy the game again in order to play. :D
215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
yep. the advantage you have with maphack in team games is a much larger advantage than you would in 1v1...
always felt something was fishy when i saw his records
Maybe a little off topic but i wonder why Blizzard hasnt done anything about the hacking site, we dont want to mention, yet? I mean WTF this site is out for years and offered hacks for every Blizzard game as far as i remember..
On March 13 2011 00:41 TheAntZ wrote: Even more disgusting to me then this worthless idiot hacking is the trash in this thread denying that he is or defending him
After all... for like the last 10 pages, most of the people were defending him over "circumstantial evidence".
I've seen bronze league players build 6 bunkers blindly.
But this is higher level gaming, and no ovie sac->baneling counter with 6 bunker roach? And suspicous w/l ratio and staggering increase in rank? How is that not obvious hacking? igware even admitted to hacking. [/topic]
I refrained myself from posting since I wasn't too sure myself. However, when I read about what ostojiy and others said about blindly constructing 6 bunkers and a wall of barracks.... I started to become very suspicious of iGware. I'm happy to see that it ended this way. BTW, floorexercise, I completely agree with you. Production tab hack is baffling. It reveals so much information and you can hide yourself from doing any suspicious actions. Very powerful indeed. Blizzard needs to get on that.
I wonder why they bothered "apologizing" for hacking instead of just admitting with something along the lines of "ya we hack deal with it". I doubt they meant what they said. It's rather disturbing that a hacker can get top 5 in the world so easily though. I guess you either hack or you don't, which is why most of us don't get why they would do it in the first place. *shrug*
On March 13 2011 01:33 SkCom wrote: I wonder why they bothered "apologizing" for hacking instead of just admitting with something along the lines of "ya we hack deal with it". I doubt they meant what they said. It's rather disturbing that a hacker can get top 5 in the world so easily though. I guess you either hack or you don't, which is why most of us don't get why they would do it in the first place. *shrug*
they kinda blamed eachother. "he gave me the hack! i just did it for him!" and "i dont hack.hes the one hacking!".
both try to pull out of this. both should get all their accs banned and never touch this game again.
Yeah, it was pretty obvious, you can't go 210-10 with mediocre play and no scouting, no-one is that lucky. Goes to show how important scouting is though, apparently people aren't being completely out-multitasked yet, relatively bad players can still keep up if they know what is going on.
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
The OP has a 2v2 team with a pretty high win rate of 85%.
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
I don't agree with this, really. I think it takes real good sense of both 2on2 and very good players to get to those levels, but if you look Aristeo+Cuberts stats on EU, they are pretty close to those 94% as well, while not hacking 100% for sure. If you play those guys though you can see how they outplay you by watching the replay, rather than being startled by random-looking decisions like those of iGware+X. Some other teams are quite high in the 80%s as well, so the percentage might be suspicious, but it's not close to being any for of proof, imho.
Anyways I am really sad about this whole story, mostly because up to now I was being so naive, thinking that hacks and such wouldn't make a breakthrough in SC2. Way too much blind trust in Blizz' anti-hack functions I guess. Just thought, since you are logged in all-time now it would make stuff way harder. So sad. :'(
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
The OP has a 2v2 team with a pretty high win rate of 85%.
there is a HUGE difference between 85% and 95%. Then again... maybe it takes one to know one? how on earth do you manage to detect this many hackers anyway; i havent suspected any opponent i've ever played in sc2 or broodwar of hacking but of course im sure it happened once in a while.
If anyone seriously believes this guy is somehow that good and it's "game sense" somehow they are just blatantly wrong. You don't get top of the ladder with that speed of play, you get it with magical insight to what opponent is doing, it couldn't be more clear.
Edit: Ah i see he even admitted now. Maybe PinkPrincess you shouldn't defend people in future just because you know them.
I hope Sorcery gets that 5000-500 record account banned. I'm like 4-6 vs him. I honestly had a ton of respect for him/Sublime. Even though they would mass win AT vs RT teams I could always tell they had talent with unit control in some of the games versus them. However when you hack and you can get counters before they come, I lose all respect.
I just hope I can chat with him before his account gets banned. What a fake.
The funny thing is that Sorcery was a very well respected players in the dota community and on a top level NA dota team before he got caught. I'm glad he got caught so fast.
Whats really lame is that someone like this can even get to the top with non-existent mechanical skills. Thats the real difference here with BW... a hacker would never get anywhere near top of ICCUP.
Here's his account. All that time he put in and I hope it all gets wiped and banned. Sure he can buy a new game for 60$ but at least he'll have nothing to show for his time. I really wonder what this guy's goal is in life. That's not even meant to be insulting, I just really wonder.
If what he says is true regarding the Sorcery account, it probably won't be banned. You can safely assume IGware will be gone soon though, unless it's a private hack that usually don't get detected for a long time, if ever. (Think back to the private pay-to-use WC3 hacks that ruined the game and were never detected)
On March 13 2011 02:43 infinity2k9 wrote: Whats really lame is that someone like this can even get to the top with non-existent mechanical skills. Thats the real difference here with BW... a hacker would never get anywhere near top of ICCUP.
On March 13 2011 02:43 infinity2k9 wrote: Whats really lame is that someone like this can even get to the top with non-existent mechanical skills. Thats the real difference here with BW... a hacker would never get anywhere near top of ICCUP.
Wait what? I totally disagree with that.
How can you disagree it's just plainly a fact. When hackers in BW were exposed even with modified maps it came out some people still managed to beat them. No ones ever hacked themselves to anywhere near the top of the ladder, because you get to a point where mechanical monsters just beat you on multitasking alone.
You think a 60 apm guy has any chance of beating Ret in BW with the aid of a maphack?
On March 13 2011 02:43 infinity2k9 wrote: Whats really lame is that someone like this can even get to the top with non-existent mechanical skills. Thats the real difference here with BW... a hacker would never get anywhere near top of ICCUP.
Wait what? I totally disagree with that.
Nope. In Brood War, even with hacks, if you don't have the 300+ APM to macro at the mid game, you're still vulnerable to stupid strats like mass arbiterssss just because your opponent is that much better than you.
On March 13 2011 02:52 smacky wrote: checking out his account is worth the time....that match history cracks me up....he got a bit greedy i'd say
It's hilarious and I'm honestly smiling inside.
To know that multiple times, I've searched a 4v4 RT alone, got matched with 3 RANDOM players and beat a CHEESE team consisted of Sorcery, Sublime + 2 other probable cheesers on his friends list and BEAT them... really makes me laugh.
Apparently he's young I believe. Maybe just getting out of High school so some immaturity is a good guess here.
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
The OP has a 2v2 team with a pretty high win rate of 85%.
You can find him on several teams together with the accused hackers, so he teams up with them and now he is accusing them, i wouldn't be surprised if he turns out just as guilty as well...
I can vouch for Protech and say he does not hack. I've played vs him countless times in ladder and it always goes either way 50/50 (you might like to argue otherwise Mike :O.. ok maybe a little more than 50/50). Regardless, his 85% win team is not a hacking team. They have solid strats, some abusive (like every other 2v2 strat) and good scouting/game sense/micro/macro which is everything you need to be a top team player. I too have played with Sorcery for quite a few games (haven't recently) and haven't played with him since these hacking accusations have gone around. It wasn't clear or hard to tell he was hacking at the point I played with him. He himself said he got the hack later on closer to when he started to mass 1v1s (I stopped playing with him before that). Protech has removed him from his friend's list and will never play with him again. I'll be doing the same.
Josh pretty disappointing man. I was listening to all these accusations long before this post and trying to give you the benefit of the doubt for awhile but then I realized through replays + just common sense that you were hacking. Why would you do it? Sure you did it on iGware's account but YOUR name is the one that's gonna get tarnished because of how many people knew you played on his account. You would have been better off making a new account and not telling anyone it was you (but then you wouldn't get all the recognition + fame that you wanted? I don't get it). Even though your Sorcery account won't get banned (may be a possibility) people won't respect your stats whatsoever because they know that you have/do use a maphack and some people will just blindly look at it and say its impossible to have a win % like that without hacking.
I can't remember did he say he would stop hacking in his confession post? Not that it really matters..
Just sad to get to know you, talk to you and play some games with you while trying to help you out when you needed it and then you lie/cheat/hack behind our backs.
I dunno I don't think I'll be seeing you online for awhile as this will probably make you quit the game for awhile or make some new smurf. Sad.
@ Peter, sucks you defended him so much. I waited to make any accusations myself directly to him however I wasn't gonna try and defend him. However it was kinda painful to see you defend him when I knew there was a good chance he was hacking. I laughed when it was said like "he's not too good with these technical things" (ie. setting up a stream) however he told me at one point he self built his own computer. Does not compute.
Just shows you can't trust anyone online (but since when is that new)
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
The OP has a 2v2 team with a pretty high win rate of 85%.
You can find him on several teams together with the accused hackers, so he teams up with them and now he is accusing them, i wouldn't be surprised if he turns out just as guilty as well...
Many of the top level 2v2 teams have a high ratio because they use abusive strats which require perfect execution to defend. I've played vs Protech several times, he doesn't hack.
On March 12 2011 21:22 Ftrunkz wrote: holy crap, just by maphacking some 60apm jobber got #1 that quick on US ladder? And in all reality all the evidence against him (bar the fact that his mechanics was horrible and he made absolutely no attempt to scout ever) was pretty much completely dismissable because of his ridiculous hacks like that 'camara hider'?
Am i the only one scared for the sc2 competitions online right now? I mean, there's plenty of 'unknowns' out there (look at the TSL) that are springing up out of nowhere, and even top players are by no means above hacking (just look at broodwars 'top players' hacking history)... Really makes me question the credibility of ANYTHING not done in a LAN setting :\.
I mean honestly, if this clown had decent apm (>150 sc2gears apm) and had been around at least somewhat before exploding to #1 (say had a few online tournament placings here and there) and slowly worked his way up week by week instead of just insta #1'ing it and having ridiculous 90% winrates in 2v2's, who would've really suspected him?
This is actually really depressing for me personally, I didn't realize sc2 hacks had got this serious already
Dont worry mate, when the GSL maps are introduced to the map selection on theladder, these clowns wont be able to follow the great players. Just like in Brood War, they`ll die in the mid game because they just dont have the skills. I won countless of matches against hackers on ICCup, it was hilarious. Even when i played WC3 i`d beat them. Hopefully, the map change will crush them.
looking at the team stats its pretty obvious who is cheating, unless sorcery is some sort of team sc2 savant
igware stats in all team games - 2215 wins, 646 losses - 77.4%, very good igware stats without sorcery - 1853 wins, 626 losses - 74.7% still great igware stats with sorcery - 362 wins, 20 losses - 94.7% gosu
and if you look at sorcery's stats hes incredible, 90% winrate over 4700 games
PinkPrincess, I think they should just give you a few days of temporary ban as a formal response to what you said - "Go ahead and ban me if these guys actually turn out to be hackers" - but definitely not a permanent one since it doesn't look like you're a hacker yourself and you didn't behave badly in this thread.
However, I hope you've learned a lesson from this incident. Please don't blindly trust anyone and defend them in such passionate manner when so many people, including several pros are expressing suspicions. At least stay quiet and let them defend themselves with their own excuses.
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
The OP has a 2v2 team with a pretty high win rate of 85%.
You can find him on several teams together with the accused hackers, so he teams up with them and now he is accusing them, i wouldn't be surprised if he turns out just as guilty as well...
Many of the top level 2v2 teams have a high ratio because they use abusive strats which require perfect execution to defend. I've played vs Protech several times, he doesn't hack.
he has a 25-0 record teaming up with Sorcery and 22-3 in his 2v2 team together with igWare, i'm sure they used perfect executions and stuff but that still doesn't explain why he actually teamed up with them for a while.
So...protech is on teams with the guys he is accusing? Wow this is like an episode of Jerry Springer.
Anyways, its cool that those 2 waterheads were exposed for cheating. Kinda sad that a company like blizzard, with their massive resources, can't stop hacking 100%.
On March 13 2011 00:25 MangoTango wrote: 215-13 in 2v2 is insane. I'm pretty sure there's something fishy going on with the igware-sorcery team. Not even a 2v2 team with MC and MVP would have a 95% win rate.
The OP has a 2v2 team with a pretty high win rate of 85%.
You can find him on several teams together with the accused hackers, so he teams up with them and now he is accusing them, i wouldn't be surprised if he turns out just as guilty as well...
Many of the top level 2v2 teams have a high ratio because they use abusive strats which require perfect execution to defend. I've played vs Protech several times, he doesn't hack.
he has a 25-0 record teaming up with Sorcery and 22-3 in his 2v2 team together with igWare, i'm sure they used perfect executions and stuff but that still doesn't explain why he actually teamed up with them for a while.
25-0 and 22-3 isn't very hard to get in 2v2. He teamed up with them because this was before he noticed Sorcery was using maphack. You can't fault him for playing games with him before any hack accusations came out. Once he noticed this and realized himself he was hacking, he stopped playing with him and removed him from his friends list.
I hope both Sorcery (Josh Price) and iGware (David Zhu) accounts are banned as soon as possible. This is at least the second (caught) offense of rulebreaking in online gaming for both of them and I would be wary of trusting these guys ever again.
ProTech, good job bringing this up. Maybe we should nickname you "oGstheSTC of the NA server". In case you don't know, he is pretty well known in Korea for catching cheaters. As a sidenote though, I do hope that you try to behave a little more nicely on bnet from this point as your reputation doesn't seem to be great and things like that can matter when you're trying to accuse others of hacking, as shown in this thread.
Once upon a time, Protech and I were rivals and our 2's team would lose lots of games to them. Then we would beat them lots. Then we'd split. We play double protoss (suicide) so we would be frustrated when we lost to ling/marine all in type play. Or 6 pool forcing us to get cannons while other guy gets fast 4 gate stalkers (you instantly lose because you are behind in tech and cannon's wont save you at that point).
Anyways....... he would BM us all the time and I hated his guts. So I'd BM him back.
Then randomly out of the blue.... I think he came to a realization that double protoss is incredibly hard to be successful with and he gained respect for us and just started treating me differently so we became friends and he's a nice guy. Part of playing team games in SC2 is about the drama and BM to make it fun (not that I agree with it 100%) but it's pretty easy to call out a BM player while still being BM yourself.
On March 12 2011 20:02 PinkPrincess wrote: For myself, I'm sorry I spent so much time defending Sorcery. I genuinely believed him and mutual friends who told me he did not hack (and to be clear - a lot of the evidence Protech presented here I still do not believe is particularly conclusive). I saw my friend under attack from evidence that I did not believe was particularly conclusive, and thus I jumped in to start defending him.
What is conclusive to me is that I spoke with iGware and others on Bnet (prior to this series of confessions being posted), and they told me that Josh does indeed hack [in fact, I first heard it a couple hours ago]. After this, I talked with him for a while, and he agreed to post the confession above (not that I specifically endorse the contents - but I felt that he should post a confession here, as opposed to simply disappearing or trying to continue hiding it). I do not believe there is any excuse for ever hacking. While iGware and others acted as enablers by keeping his secrets from me and others, it was ultimately his decision to hack, and no excuses can account for that. I'm sorry that the situation ended up this way, but I am glad that the truth ultimately came out. I believe that Sorcery is a genuinely good player (even apart from hacking), and I hope he will try to demonstrate this by showing his skill in 1v1 ladder while always live streaming his games as he plays (I and others helped him earlier this evening with setting up a livestream, as at that point I believed him when he claimed not to hack and wanted to help him demonstrate it to others)
I said earlier if people determined conclusively that he hacked, you could ban me; I stand by that if you wish (I'm not going to beg to be banned, but I cannot rightfully complain if you do, considering I said the words)
Note: I confirm that the above people posting are the REAL posters, even though they only have 1 post each. It's not some troll attempt by people.
This sounds like 100% complete and utter bullshit.
You probably have over 500 games logged with the guy. You SAY you've been playing with him for years (so it's probably more like 5000 - 15000 games) and he's hacked the entire time most likely since he hacked in DOTA and he still hacks now. You've posted 20 times in threads defending him. When you play with someone that maphacks, it doesn't take very long to figure it out and there are plenty of "competitve team game" players who sit there and don't care, because they are not the ones actually maphacking.
You are no better than he is, you are probably worse because I doubt he deludes himself into thinking he's something he's not.
On March 13 2011 03:24 Sein wrote: PinkPrincess, I think they should just give you a few days of temporary ban as a formal response to what you said - "Go ahead and ban me if these guys actually turn out to be hackers" - but definitely not a permanent one since it doesn't look like you're a hacker yourself and you didn't behave badly in this thread.
However, I hope you've learned a lesson from this incident. Please don't blindly trust anyone and defend them in such passionate manner when so many people, including several pros are expressing suspicions. At least stay quiet and let them defend themselves with their own excuses.
Well him and i mainly did it before most pros came and posted about their opinions in the games they had with that person. The main reason i defended them was the guy who created the threat is so cocky and even if some of the things he pointed out were proven wrong he kept insulting/ignoreing the ones that weren't at "his lvl of enlightment" i had to do it .
And punishing the oposite faction because , well we did watch the replays and analize it and this is what we should do while keeping a civilized choice of words as much as we can . If not you can just ban me with the pinkprincess :D
On March 13 2011 03:47 naventus wrote: I don't understand how Blizzard could delay this game so much and not even put out a difficult to hack game.
Fuck even S2 managed to do that with HoN.
S2 stores ALL information on their servers which basically means unless you gain access to their mainframe, no hack can exist. SC2 is mostly done client-side, as with all Blizzard games. Which means it's a hacker paradise.
teehee this was a funny read. Especially the confession and the wells pic (lol warned for the post), Banning the people who defended him is probably too much, but perhaps a list of shame with all their names on the first post will make them learn how to not be so gullible
well when a player is almost topping the world ladder due to cheating its ok to start a witch hunt imo
at the second replay at like 3.20 when the lings were coming he blinged there without scouting em?
Also i can see that his pretending his not hacking, rallying units to the enemys base at the time he checks the fog of war. he was scouting your bases in the second game while he was rallying the banshee there.
Just swapping through the replays its hard to see any cheating at all, but when you study it a little bit its easy to see they are cheating...
On March 12 2011 20:02 PinkPrincess wrote: For myself, I'm sorry I spent so much time defending Sorcery. I genuinely believed him and mutual friends who told me he did not hack (and to be clear - a lot of the evidence Protech presented here I still do not believe is particularly conclusive). I saw my friend under attack from evidence that I did not believe was particularly conclusive, and thus I jumped in to start defending him.
What is conclusive to me is that I spoke with iGware and others on Bnet (prior to this series of confessions being posted), and they told me that Josh does indeed hack [in fact, I first heard it a couple hours ago]. After this, I talked with him for a while, and he agreed to post the confession above (not that I specifically endorse the contents - but I felt that he should post a confession here, as opposed to simply disappearing or trying to continue hiding it). I do not believe there is any excuse for ever hacking. While iGware and others acted as enablers by keeping his secrets from me and others, it was ultimately his decision to hack, and no excuses can account for that. I'm sorry that the situation ended up this way, but I am glad that the truth ultimately came out. I believe that Sorcery is a genuinely good player (even apart from hacking), and I hope he will try to demonstrate this by showing his skill in 1v1 ladder while always live streaming his games as he plays (I and others helped him earlier this evening with setting up a livestream, as at that point I believed him when he claimed not to hack and wanted to help him demonstrate it to others)
I said earlier if people determined conclusively that he hacked, you could ban me; I stand by that if you wish (I'm not going to beg to be banned, but I cannot rightfully complain if you do, considering I said the words)
Note: I confirm that the above people posting are the REAL posters, even though they only have 1 post each. It's not some troll attempt by people.
This sounds like 100% complete and utter bullshit.
You probably have over 500 games logged with the guy. You SAY you've been playing with him for years (so it's probably more like 5000 - 15000 games) and he's hacked the entire time most likely since he hacked in DOTA and he still hacks now. You've posted 20 times in threads defending him. When you play with someone that maphacks, it doesn't take very long to figure it out and there are plenty of "competitve team game" players who sit there and don't care, because they are not the ones actually maphacking.
You are no better than he is, you are probably worse because I doubt he deludes himself into thinking he's something he's not.
The witch hunt's over. There's no need for this.
I'm glad they came out and ended this argument. Hopefully that will signal the end of the acrimony.
On March 13 2011 03:24 Sein wrote: PinkPrincess, I think they should just give you a few days of temporary ban as a formal response to what you said - "Go ahead and ban me if these guys actually turn out to be hackers" - but definitely not a permanent one since it doesn't look like you're a hacker yourself and you didn't behave badly in this thread.
However, I hope you've learned a lesson from this incident. Please don't blindly trust anyone and defend them in such passionate manner when so many people, including several pros are expressing suspicions. At least stay quiet and let them defend themselves with their own excuses.
Well him and i mainly did it before most pros came and posted about their opinions in the games they had with that person. The main reason i defended them was the guy who created the threat is so cocky and even if some of the things he pointed out were proven wrong he kept insulting/ignoreing the ones that weren't at "his lvl of enlightment" i had to do it .
And punishing the oposite faction because , well we did watch the replays and analize it and this is what we should do while keeping a civilized choice of words as much as we can . If not you can just ban me with the pinkprincess :D
I'm talking about this post:
On March 12 2011 15:57 PinkPrincess wrote: To whoever asked to put up: the mods can absolutely ban me if they want if there is definitive proof found of him hacking (I don't just mean a panel of random respected people deciding that he hacks)
Having made that statement, he does deserve at least a slap on the wrist to let it serve as a lesson. If you say something like "the mods can/will ban me for this" on here, then you will get what you asked for.
PinkPrincess actually continued to defend them after the pros came in. He even tried to suggest that Ret's opinion on this matter isn't that credible because he supposedly has a "history" with iGware.
I agree that some of ProTech's points weren't all that convincing, but he also had many other points that were actually convincing and I think you should have taken some time to go over those if you really wanted to defend iGware and Sorcery.
On March 13 2011 03:30 RevRich wrote: So...protech is on teams with the guys he is accusing? Wow this is like an episode of Jerry Springer.
Anyways, its cool that those 2 waterheads were exposed for cheating. Kinda sad that a company like blizzard, with their massive resources, can't stop hacking 100%.
ProTech said in his first post he played games with them until he recognized that they were cheating.
On March 13 2011 03:30 RevRich wrote: So...protech is on teams with the guys he is accusing? Wow this is like an episode of Jerry Springer.
Anyways, its cool that those 2 waterheads were exposed for cheating. Kinda sad that a company like blizzard, with their massive resources, can't stop hacking 100%.
ProTech said in his first post he played games with them until he recognized that they were cheating.
Right. Besides, if ProTech was cheating, wouldn't the two hackers have called him out on it when they admitted to cheating?
That being said, I know nothing about ProTech, so I'm not vouching for him personally.
although they both admitted to hacking/cheating. I still think they are very good players and its sad they had to hack to win. They could easly post 70% win without it.
On March 13 2011 03:47 naventus wrote: I don't understand how Blizzard could delay this game so much and not even put out a difficult to hack game.
Fuck even S2 managed to do that with HoN.
It would be very server side intensive to use the HoN method. But considering Blizzards wealth they definitely could do it.
Yeah Blizzard could involved and revolutionize cloud gaming but there are other ways they could break most of this without having to rewrite their games.
On March 13 2011 04:44 NrT.RuSH wrote: although they both admitted to hacking/cheating. I still think they are very good players and its sad they had to hack to win. They could easly post 70% win without it.
70% win rate with diamond apm and macro? Doubt they would even be in masters based on what I saw of his games. Pretty hard to tell though when the guy can see everything you are doing and making...
Also, the guy who keeps calling for a temp ban or w/e; while I agree, you are walking the line on backseat moderating and I'd just sit back at this point and the mods will punish if they see fit.
On March 13 2011 04:44 NrT.RuSH wrote: although they both admitted to hacking/cheating. I still think they are very good players and its sad they had to hack to win. They could easly post 70% win without it.
70% win rate with diamond apm and macro? Doubt they would even be in masters based on what I saw of his games. Pretty hard to tell though when the guy can see everything you are doing and making...
Also, the guy who keeps calling for a temp ban or w/e; while I agree, you are walking the line on backseat moderating and I'd just sit back at this point and the mods will punish if they see fit.
Right, I will stop on the banning issue now. I've only made two posts about it anyway with one of them being a response to the guy who misunderstood my initial point.
On March 13 2011 04:44 NrT.RuSH wrote: although they both admitted to hacking/cheating. I still think they are very good players and its sad they had to hack to win. They could easly post 70% win without it.
70% win rate with diamond apm and macro? Doubt they would even be in masters based on what I saw of his games. Pretty hard to tell though when the guy can see everything you are doing and making...
Also, the guy who keeps calling for a temp ban or w/e; while I agree, you are walking the line on backseat moderating and I'd just sit back at this point and the mods will punish if they see fit.
he was talking about 2v2 of course. pretty disappointing that he was hacking, althought it was nice of him to admit it. Lots of people accused Sorcery of hacking like 6-8 months ago, so I doubt that his main id is "pure" like he said.
I have zero sympathy for hacking. Even if you let someone hack on your account, you're also cheating. Get this crap off SC2, it just hurts e-sports. You're worse than steroids in baseball.
I hope someone from Blizzard sees this, and understands whats happening. It saddens me to see hackers take wins dishonestly and climb to the top of the ranks. If its going to take this long to get these guys banned... How long you think its going to take other hackers that are playing it the same? I think Blizzard should be a step ahead of these bastards. Having the community report and wait for a wave of bans isn't enough. These losers are ruining the integrity of this game.
On March 13 2011 05:02 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I have zero sympathy for hacking. Even if you let someone hack on your account, you're also cheating. Get this crap off SC2, it just hurts e-sports. You're worse than steroids in baseball.
Actually, isn't account sharing against the Terms of Use? I know it is for WoW, which is now part of the same battle.net account. So Blizzard *could* potentially ban people for that. And yes, absolutely no respect for hackers. A quick ban and that's all - just like they banned the guys right after they posted. Gotta love the decisiveness of the TL mods sometimes, keeping our community as clean as possible.
I haven't finished watching, but from game 1 he IS hacking.
Subtle points but --
First banshee he sends, he scouts no expansion. But then he doesn't push into the main? And he then scouts the expo 10 seconds later and snipes an SCV? To me, every single game I've played the terran will at least poke into the main w/ that banshee.
Second, he sends 20 marines to his opponents expansions late game with zero scout.
Third, just look at his map. HE NEVER EVER has units scouting. He's always either just attacking or just defending. He moves units into convenient positions at good times, but is smart enough to not pull SCVs before he physically sees the units.
There's no concrete proof, but I'd say he's hacking in game 1. No top 200 player in NA plays like him, with absolutely no active scouting.
On March 13 2011 03:47 naventus wrote: I don't understand how Blizzard could delay this game so much and not even put out a difficult to hack game.
Fuck even S2 managed to do that with HoN.
It would be very server side intensive to use the HoN method. But considering Blizzards wealth they definitely could do it.
Yeah Blizzard could involved and revolutionize cloud gaming but there are other ways they could break most of this without having to rewrite their games.
I don't see how? The client currently has to have all the info needed for a maphack in memory. No matter how you try to hide, encrypt or otherwise obfuscate that data, someone will put the effort into disassembling it. I suppose Warden works by scanning your memory for footprints of known hacks or something, i've never looked into how it works. But that still means private hacks will still always work, or even public ones possibly if they used some method to avoid it.
On March 13 2011 05:02 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I have zero sympathy for hacking. Even if you let someone hack on your account, you're also cheating. Get this crap off SC2, it just hurts e-sports. You're worse than steroids in baseball.
Hacking pisses me off too, but cmon worse than steroids in baseball? You are being a little overdramatic, this is nowhere near the same thing...
On March 13 2011 02:43 infinity2k9 wrote: Whats really lame is that someone like this can even get to the top with non-existent mechanical skills. Thats the real difference here with BW... a hacker would never get anywhere near top of ICCUP.
Wait what? I totally disagree with that.
Nope. In Brood War, even with hacks, if you don't have the 300+ APM to macro at the mid game, you're still vulnerable to stupid strats like mass arbiterssss just because your opponent is that much better than you.
And ICCUP actually has a functional antihack system, thanks to 3rd parties.
Compare this to blizzard's closed source, client side interface. There's plenty of abuse to be done with little help from the community.
IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
On March 13 2011 05:02 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I have zero sympathy for hacking. Even if you let someone hack on your account, you're also cheating. Get this crap off SC2, it just hurts e-sports. You're worse than steroids in baseball.
Actually, isn't account sharing against the Terms of Use? I know it is for WoW, which is now part of the same battle.net account. So Blizzard *could* potentially ban people for that. And yes, absolutely no respect for hackers. A quick ban and that's all - just like they banned the guys right after they posted. Gotta love the decisiveness of the TL mods sometimes, keeping our community as clean as possible.
It's just part of blizzard's crap to ban us so we have to buy more copies->more profit for them.
This includes the following: No lan, forced to use their server, region lock (buy 1 copy for each region), can't modify MPQ in anyway (haven't been banned myself yet), lazy upkeep on the game.
Definitely suspicious. With macro that bad he must be an amazing tactician yet a bunch of his moves were complete blind luck. As mentioned, the group of marines moving to 6'o clock is such a bad move. You don't do that against blue flame hellions. Second and I felt was pretty hilarious was his double drop into the main of namchir. When he starts heading over there, he does a little stutter step. Funnily enough, there was a hellion passing by.. Again double dropping against a viking mass is again blind maneuvering. So bad decision making and bad macro = what the hell..
On March 13 2011 05:50 kNyTTyM wrote: Definitely suspicious. With macro that bad he must be an amazing tactician yet a bunch of his moves were complete blind luck. As mentioned, the group of marines moving to 6'o clock is such a bad move. You don't do that against blue flame hellions. Second and I felt was pretty hilarious was his double drop into the main of namchir. When he starts heading over there, he does a little stutter step. Funnily enough, there was a hellion passing by.. Again double dropping against a viking mass is again blind maneuvering. So bad decision making and bad macro = what the hell..
Not picking on you specifically, as there's a lot of people still doing it but seriously; I think we can stop analysing the replays now that they've actually come out and admitted that they hack in the thread.
On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote: IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
thats hillarious.. As the other thread mentioned; The real IGware couldn't attend because the one who climbed the ladder was indeed Sorcery, not IGware.
The only shred of doubt came from the fact someone said "Well iGware went to this tournament and beat Painuser and Axslav"... but now we find out that it wasnt infact a LAN, it was him playing in another location due to "Not enough computers".. that is just the icing on the cake of hilarity.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that despite what he says Sorcery's account is lattered with hacking. Just look at his winrates. Also doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that PinkPrincess is lying when he says he didn't know Sorcery hacked. He played numerous team games with the guy and apparently has played with him for years. It's nice that the hackers and their friends (who oddly all call each other by first name, do they know each other in person) come on here to confess, but they clearly are trying to save a little bit of face here and there by not telling the complete truth.
Great detective work from teh community to get these two guys outted.
On March 13 2011 06:04 Doodsmack wrote: Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that despite what he says Sorcery's account is lattered with hacking. Just look at his winrates. Also doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that PinkPrincess is lying when he says he didn't know Sorcery hacked. He played numerous team games with the guy and apparently has played with him for years. It's nice that the hackers and their friends (who oddly all call each other by first name, do they know each other in person) come on here to confess, but they clearly are trying to save a little bit of face here and there by not telling the complete truth.
Great detective work from teh community to get these two guys outted.
You're wrong and you don't know the sort of person I am with regards to hackers. I wouldn't have defended him if I'd known he hacked. I haven't known Sorcery for years, so I don't know where you got that from. I met him after SC2 went retail...
On March 13 2011 06:04 Doodsmack wrote: Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that despite what he says Sorcery's account is lattered with hacking. Just look at his winrates. Also doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that PinkPrincess is lying when he says he didn't know Sorcery hacked. He played numerous team games with the guy and apparently has played with him for years. It's nice that the hackers and their friends (who oddly all call each other by first name, do they know each other in person) come on here to confess, but they clearly are trying to save a little bit of face here and there by not telling the complete truth.
Great detective work from teh community to get these two guys outted.
its not that difficult in team to have a high win percentage.. Keep in mind Sorcery/most of these high win percentage guys do the same exact strat everygame.. And Sorcery got most of his wins during the reaper imbalance early days. I played him alot back then in team and it was an insanely difficult strat to beat (esp with hacks lol), two zergs 10pooling and one terran going mass reaper, or worse 2 terrans mass reaper and one zerg 10pooling. Nowadays, it is two zerg 10pools and mass hellion, totally dominates almost everything in 3v3.
So what Im getting at, is people like igware and Sorcery (and Protech/TommyLove/etc) can achieve these high ass win percentages without hacks just by doing the most abusive team strats at the time.. Keeping in mind, 90% of 4v4 games involve one team having random partners, so when 4 people are doing the best strategy possible, vs 4 people who never played before/not as skilled.. The chance of losing is very low. Anyone with 3 of these "vetern 4v4 players" can go at least 200-10 or better, especially if you play more than one team.
Sorry but why are people calling out pinkprincess for defending a friend? I would defend a friend that said he wasn't hacking to me until its proven beyond a doubt too. I would hope pretty much all of the community would too. He probably already feels bad because he was lied to.
@doodsmack: Good DotA teams that last more than two weeks either their players pretty close (first name basis is really common) or they aren't good at all due to the nature of the game.
On March 13 2011 05:55 101toss wrote: This is also more proof that being on top of the Master's League means absolutely nothing.
i hope you guys know why mike made this thread. mike accused sorcery and igware for hacking and made an offer that if they give him hacks, he wouldn't have made this thread. but they refused and mike raged.... so yeah
rush, mike was upset for a few weeks and i asked him what's wrong. then he told me his relationship with sorcery had ended and i asked him why? i was surprised to hear this story so i deleted him off list and yesterday he called me a gook on skype because i said i'm going to spill the truth.
On March 13 2011 06:20 TommyLove wrote: i hope you guys know why mike made this thread. mike accused sorcery and igware for hacking and made an offer that if they give him hacks, he wouldn't have made this thread. but they refused and mike raged.... so yeah
Is there any truth to this?
On March 12 2011 11:51 TommyLove wrote: mike is ez
On March 12 2011 12:39 TommyLove wrote: help i'm so confused. who is hacking? igware or sorcery? could it be one incredible player that plays on two accounts?
On March 12 2011 12:39 TommyLove wrote: help i'm so confused. who is hacking? igware or sorcery? could it be one incredible player that plays on two accounts?
Hokay here's a little better explanation:
David Zhu on real ID friend list = iGware
Josh Price on real ID friend list = Sorcery
iGware is top 5 1v1 in the world.
Sorcery is playing on iGware's account.
So it is safe to assume that it is not David Zhu hacking, but Josh Price
wow josh price is amazing. is he going to win the GSL soon?
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games. you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games. you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
If he was right about those people then that actually stands to his credit. Was there a conclusion either way?
i would say protech is right 10% of the time. normally he would cry hack when he's raging like crazy
It's difficult to take you seriously after reading all those posts of yours in this thread.
If what you're claiming is true, then did you know this before Josh Price and David Zhu came out and confessed or did you talk to them just now?
On March 13 2011 06:20 TommyLove wrote: i hope you guys know why mike made this thread. mike accused sorcery and igware for hacking and made an offer that if they give him hacks, he wouldn't have made this thread. but they refused and mike raged.... so yeah
lol?
he can go download them himself free from the hacking website. how does this make any sense
i knew about this for some time. i just didn't care about it and i personally don't know josh price and david zhu. you can check all my team's history that i never partied with them
hahha sorcery?!?!? He cheated in TOURNAMENTS in DOTA with Garena Client. He used maphacks with Chen and was caught by the community/client. Kid doesn't learn when to stop huh?
On March 13 2011 06:20 TommyLove wrote: i hope you guys know why mike made this thread. mike accused sorcery and igware for hacking and made an offer that if they give him hacks, he wouldn't have made this thread. but they refused and mike raged.... so yeah
lol?
he can go download them himself free from the hacking website. how does this make any sense
yeah he could have, that's why he visited hacker forums after wards and found igware's account name. i'm assuming sorcery tricked him into thinking his hacks are undetectable, so mike had to investigate.
@Pink + @Green - I don't think TLers (who followed this thread) are going to take any posts you make here seriously after you defended so vigorously a cheater.
On March 13 2011 06:59 lac29 wrote: @Pink + @Greek - I don't think TLers (who followed this thread) are going to take any posts you make here seriously after you defended so vigorously a cheater.
pink knows sorcery from DotA community which was a long long time ago
Uh... the only person that you listed that I accused of hacking in brood war was coOgi ( ceO. ) I never accused any of the other players, in fact I openly admitted that merf / koolam clearly > aeOn.
On March 13 2011 06:37 TommyLove wrote: i knew about this for some time. i just didn't care about it and i personally don't know josh price and david zhu. you can check all my team's history that i never partied with them
15 Post account bringing no proof. This guy seems legit.
Oh btw I know all the liquid guys and they hack all the time! No I don't have any proof and I don't have any credibility in the scene but trust me on this one.
On March 13 2011 06:17 Azide wrote: Did you delete him from your friends list? (PinkPrincess)
Yep, I deleted him from my SC2 account. For now I'm going to take more of a break from SC2 anyway though, as I feel like I need some time off after this whole episode and finding out what I did about one of my best SC2 friends.
On March 13 2011 06:20 TommyLove wrote: i hope you guys know why mike made this thread. mike accused sorcery and igware for hacking and made an offer that if they give him hacks, he wouldn't have made this thread. but they refused and mike raged.... so yeah
lol?
he can go download them himself free from the hacking website. how does this make any sense
There's someone named Protech (registered in 2009) on that hack website that iGware account is registered on. Same person?
On March 13 2011 06:59 lac29 wrote: @Pink + @Greek - I don't think TLers (who followed this thread) are going to take any posts you make here seriously after you defended so vigorously a cheater.
pink knows sorcery from DotA community which was a long long time ago
pretty suspicious huh?
I don't know where you guys keep getting that I knew him from DOTA? I hardly even played DOTA personally (I was essentially BW all the way up until I switched to SC2), and I certainly never even heard of LastHitMagic. I googled him briefly after meeting him on SC2 (and him mentioning that he was a DOTA pro etc.) and found hack accusations of him from DOTA, but considering how often hack accusations were tossed around in DOTA and the fact that none of the links I found contained any actual proof, I figured it was just talk...
so telling the truth is trolling? here's an image of us guys chatting on skype yesterday http://img708.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110312at209.png/ Michael Ballman is protech by the way and he raged quit on skype because I told him i was going to tell his side of the story
PinkPrincess, i bet you theres 20 kids named protech at your school. Its a pretty popular name. I was thinking of naming my first born Protech actually.
On March 13 2011 07:13 TommyLove wrote: so telling the truth is trolling? here's an image of us guys chatting on skype yesterday http://img708.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110312at209.png/ Michael Ballman is protech by the way and he raged quit on skype because I told him i was going to tell his side of the story
That image is so useless to any argument you are trying to make...
it's proof that me and mike talked yesterday. if there's a way to show history of starcraft chats or skype conversations, i'll be happy to post more images.
A screenshot isn't proof enough sorry. Showing that you talked with an account that has the same name is not proof. I can go make a skype account with his name right now and post a screenie... Completely meaningless
I'm glad that the obvious hacker has admitted his use of the hacks and made all the defenders look like the fools they are for making excuses for an obvious cheater. Maybe it was just easier for me to spot since I've used hacks in all sorts of other games in the past (no worries though, the prospect of being banned from SC2 and shelling out another $60 for a new account is NOT attractive to me), but there are way too many people in this thread that truly don't understand how the game works at the top level, and how a player with his mechanics, random builds, and complete lack of proper scouting can not POSSIBLY reach the top of the ladder. Nor do the understand that a good hacker who's trying not to be caught will not always blatantly respond to everything he sees, and purposely "slip up" in his play to have things to point out and claim "LOOK! If I was hacking then WHY would I let THAT happen?!"
He could have done himself a favour and at least pretended to scout. The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack). A few fake scouts could have rendered ProTech's entire post moot because people would have watched the replays and said "Look, he's scouting, you were just unlucky."
The most damning evidence was the FoW glances and reactions to what he was seeing on areas of the map that he had no legit vision. Someone even made a .gif of the most glaringly obvious example. When trying to spot a map hacker, this is really the only reliable evidence that can be used. Everything else can be chalked up to luck.
On March 13 2011 07:18 TommyLove wrote: it's proof that me and mike talked yesterday. if there's a way to show history of starcraft chats or skype conversations, i'll be happy to post more images.
I am not sure if you understand how proof works but no one here debates whether you talked to him or not. Its the content of the conversation that is important. You being in a skype chat with him and other people doesn't support your claim that he raged at you because you threatened to reveal his super secret blackmail attempt to obtain hacks that are easily available through the internet.
On March 13 2011 07:21 StallingHard wrote: A screenshot isn't proof enough sorry. Showing that you talked with an account that has the same name is not proof. I can go make a skype account with his name right now and post a screenie... Completely meaningless
you can do that, but the skype conversation was yesterday. 3/11/11
I'm glad that the obvious hacker has admitted his use of the hacks and made all the defenders look like the fools they are for making excuses for an obvious cheater. Maybe it was just easier for me to spot since I've used hacks in all sorts of other games in the past (no worries though, the prospect of being banned from SC2 and shelling out another $60 for a new account is NOT attractive to me), but there are way too many people in this thread that truly don't understand how the game works at the top level, and how a player with his mechanics, random builds, and complete lack of proper scouting can not POSSIBLY reach the top of the ladder. Nor do the understand that a good hacker who's trying not to be caught will not always blatantly respond to everything he sees, and purposely "slip up" in his play to have things to point out and claim "LOOK! If I was hacking then WHY would I let THAT happen?!"
He could have done himself a favour and at least pretended to scout. The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack). A few fake scouts could have rendered ProTech's entire post moot because people would have watched the replays and said "Look, he's scouting, you were just unlucky."
The most damning evidence was the FoW glances and reactions to what he was seeing on areas of the map that he had no legit vision. Someone even made a .gif of the most glaringly obvious example. When trying to spot a map hacker, this is really the only reliable evidence that can be used. Everything else can be chalked up to luck.
another admitted hacker that should be banned. this is still a bw site and you admit to being a hacker. its amazing you would criticize other hackers.
I'm glad that the obvious hacker has admitted his use of the hacks and made all the defenders look like the fools they are for making excuses for an obvious cheater. Maybe it was just easier for me to spot since I've used hacks in all sorts of other games in the past (no worries though, the prospect of being banned from SC2 and shelling out another $60 for a new account is NOT attractive to me), but there are way too many people in this thread that truly don't understand how the game works at the top level, and how a player with his mechanics, random builds, and complete lack of proper scouting can not POSSIBLY reach the top of the ladder. Nor do the understand that a good hacker who's trying not to be caught will not always blatantly respond to everything he sees, and purposely "slip up" in his play to have things to point out and claim "LOOK! If I was hacking then WHY would I let THAT happen?!"
He could have done himself a favour and at least pretended to scout. The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack). A few fake scouts could have rendered ProTech's entire post moot because people would have watched the replays and said "Look, he's scouting, you were just unlucky."
The most damning evidence was the FoW glances and reactions to what he was seeing on areas of the map that he had no legit vision. Someone even made a .gif of the most glaringly obvious example. When trying to spot a map hacker, this is really the only reliable evidence that can be used. Everything else can be chalked up to luck.
another admitted hacker that should be banned. this is still a bw site and you admit to being a hacker. its amazing you would criticize other hackers.
What I did 8 years ago in BW really has very little to do with how I play the game currently. There are plenty of past hackers that are not only un-banned members of TL, but also active in the SC2 pro-scene.
Neither was I criticizing the hackers themselves, but rather the idiots that watched those replays and didn't see the blatantly obvious cheating going on.
its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
I'm glad that the obvious hacker has admitted his use of the hacks and made all the defenders look like the fools they are for making excuses for an obvious cheater. Maybe it was just easier for me to spot since I've used hacks in all sorts of other games in the past (no worries though, the prospect of being banned from SC2 and shelling out another $60 for a new account is NOT attractive to me), but there are way too many people in this thread that truly don't understand how the game works at the top level, and how a player with his mechanics, random builds, and complete lack of proper scouting can not POSSIBLY reach the top of the ladder. Nor do the understand that a good hacker who's trying not to be caught will not always blatantly respond to everything he sees, and purposely "slip up" in his play to have things to point out and claim "LOOK! If I was hacking then WHY would I let THAT happen?!"
He could have done himself a favour and at least pretended to scout. The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack). A few fake scouts could have rendered ProTech's entire post moot because people would have watched the replays and said "Look, he's scouting, you were just unlucky."
The most damning evidence was the FoW glances and reactions to what he was seeing on areas of the map that he had no legit vision. Someone even made a .gif of the most glaringly obvious example. When trying to spot a map hacker, this is really the only reliable evidence that can be used. Everything else can be chalked up to luck.
another admitted hacker that should be banned. this is still a bw site and you admit to being a hacker. its amazing you would criticize other hackers.
What I did 8 years ago in BW really has very little to do with how I play the game currently. There are plenty of past hackers that are not only un-banned members of TL, but also active in the SC2 pro-scene.
Neither was I criticizing the hackers themselves, but rather the idiots that watched those replays and didn't see the blatantly obvious cheating going on.
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
On March 13 2011 07:13 TommyLove wrote: so telling the truth is trolling? here's an image of us guys chatting on skype yesterday http://img708.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110312at209.png/ Michael Ballman is protech by the way and he raged quit on skype because I told him i was going to tell his side of the story
How old are you? 5? No, may be less because your argument is completely RETARDED. Most retarded piece of "evidence" I have seen in my life. Hacking is serious issue and after reading many of your posts I conclude that you are mentally retarded bipolar person who is denying that iGware was hacking then saying that he didn't share hacks with OP...
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
you said:
The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack)
that is bragging. you are saying that you were good at hacking and weren't caught. even if it occurred 8 years ago, you are still bragging about not being caught.
I'm glad that the obvious hacker has admitted his use of the hacks and made all the defenders look like the fools they are for making excuses for an obvious cheater. Maybe it was just easier for me to spot since I've used hacks in all sorts of other games in the past (no worries though, the prospect of being banned from SC2 and shelling out another $60 for a new account is NOT attractive to me), but there are way too many people in this thread that truly don't understand how the game works at the top level, and how a player with his mechanics, random builds, and complete lack of proper scouting can not POSSIBLY reach the top of the ladder. Nor do the understand that a good hacker who's trying not to be caught will not always blatantly respond to everything he sees, and purposely "slip up" in his play to have things to point out and claim "LOOK! If I was hacking then WHY would I let THAT happen?!"
He could have done himself a favour and at least pretended to scout. The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack). A few fake scouts could have rendered ProTech's entire post moot because people would have watched the replays and said "Look, he's scouting, you were just unlucky."
The most damning evidence was the FoW glances and reactions to what he was seeing on areas of the map that he had no legit vision. Someone even made a .gif of the most glaringly obvious example. When trying to spot a map hacker, this is really the only reliable evidence that can be used. Everything else can be chalked up to luck.
another admitted hacker that should be banned. this is still a bw site and you admit to being a hacker. its amazing you would criticize other hackers.
What I did 8 years ago in BW really has very little to do with how I play the game currently. There are plenty of past hackers that are not only un-banned members of TL, but also active in the SC2 pro-scene.
Neither was I criticizing the hackers themselves, but rather the idiots that watched those replays and didn't see the blatantly obvious cheating going on.
Get off your pedestal.
TL forgives ex-hackers who show remorse, just fyi
Well, I have certainly changed my actions over the years and no longer find any enjoyment from using a hack (or multiple hacks) to compete against others online.
Shrug, it is what it is, I used to use a maphack in BW, and I'm sharing with the community the types of actions that a hacker will take to hide their use of such a program. Take the advice or attack me for what I did back when I was 14 years old, that's your choice :p
could care less whether you hacked. ever play on US East? its 90% hacks. just don't come on the forums and brag about how you are a better hacker (my interpretation alone maybe).
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
you said:
The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack)
that is bragging. you are saying that you were good at hacking and weren't caught. even if it occurred 8 years ago, you are still bragging about not being caught.
No, it's not bragging, it's a description of one of the actions I would take to hide the fact that I was cheating. And observing the fact that, ironically, it actually improved my overall play. It's simply sharing with the community the fact that just because someone pretends to scout doesn't mean that they are playing legit.
You can read the end of my post where I spell out the absolute best (and really, only) legitimate evidence that you can pull from a replay while analyzing it for suspected map-hacks.
Anyways, I'm not going to further derail this thread any longer just because you're oversensitive about someone admitting the things they've done in the past in an effort to help people spot it in the future. You can reply, or not, but I'm done replying to you.
On March 13 2011 07:13 TommyLove wrote: so telling the truth is trolling? here's an image of us guys chatting on skype yesterday http://img708.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110312at209.png/ Michael Ballman is protech by the way and he raged quit on skype because I told him i was going to tell his side of the story
How old are you? 5? No, may be less because your argument is completely RETARDED. Most retarded piece of "evidence" I have seen in my life. Hacking is serious issue and after reading many of your posts I conclude that you are mentally retarded bipolar person who is denying that iGware was hacking then saying that he didn't share hacks with OP...
Can we vote for permaban ? ^_^
where did i denied that igware was hacking? i don't know him and i don't care. i like to nominate myself for perm ban for telling the truth. in the future, i'll record my skype conversations and screenshot every single of my sc2 conversations that i care
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
you said:
The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack)
that is bragging. you are saying that you were good at hacking and weren't caught. even if it occurred 8 years ago, you are still bragging about not being caught.
Umm.. so what if he's bragging? That's not the focus of his post and quite frankly what he said gives his argument more credibility. He already admitted that he IS NOT using hacks currently (in SC2 at least) so I don't understand what the problem is.
Back on topic. What raised a red flag for me was the 6 bunkers. There is NO WAY someone goes that defense without scouting; especially considering his rank. Although the problem is the only way to really prove if someone is hacking is by watching is in-game camera view, and luckily that also hints towards the exploitation of the game (he looks into the FoW several times).
On March 13 2011 07:41 dAPhREAk wrote: could care less whether you hacked. ever play on US East? its 90% hacks. just don't come on the forums and brag about how you are a better hacker (my interpretation alone maybe).
That is one bold statement. I've never felt like I played against a hacker (oh wiat, you mean BW? yeah BW had a lot of hackers heh)
On March 13 2011 06:37 TommyLove wrote: i knew about this for some time. i just didn't care about it and i personally don't know josh price and david zhu. you can check all my team's history that i never partied with them
You knew about it for some time, yet you still came in here and defended Josh Price and David Zhu after making some strange posts to disrupt the thread? I don't understand what you were thinking.
so telling the truth is trolling? here's an image of us guys chatting on skype yesterday http://img708.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110312at209.png/ Michael Ballman is protech by the way and he raged quit on skype because I told him i was going to tell his side of the story.
TommyLove, all those people im in skype with right now are saying you are a complete idiot. I logged out of skype when you started your BW nonsense. Show screen shots of these alleged accusation you are making, or it didn't happen.
Furthermore it makes no sense that I would ask someone for hacks if I can just go to google and download them. On top of that why in the fuck would I ask you in the middle of that conversation with tons of people that I play with.
On March 13 2011 07:47 g.o- wrote: His bnet ID is TommyLove, join us in channel clan hack for epic lulz
oh ok. well currently that chat channel bug is plaguing me and I can't join clan hack lol i was in the channel before adn then b.net glitched out and i can't rejoin even though it says im in it i'm not..
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
you said:
The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack)
that is bragging. you are saying that you were good at hacking and weren't caught. even if it occurred 8 years ago, you are still bragging about not being caught.
No, it's not bragging, it's a description of one of the actions I would take to hide the fact that I was cheating. And observing the fact that, ironically, it actually improved my overall play. It's simply sharing with the community the fact that just because someone pretends to scout doesn't mean that they are playing legit.
You can read the end of my post where I spell out the absolute best (and really, only) legitimate evidence that you can pull from a replay while analyzing it for suspected map-hacks.
Anyways, I'm not going to further derail this thread any longer just because you're oversensitive about someone admitting the things they've done in the past in an effort to help people spot it in the future. You can reply, or not, but I'm done replying to you.
okay, the fact that you said "really REALLY good" was not bragging. i stand corrected. you are right, it was merely a statement, not a boast. thank you for clarifying that for me. no need to respond as well, because i was clearly wrong that you were not bragging when you emphasized your skills at hacking by using a double word, and all caps for the second word. i admit my misinterpretation.
this thread isn't derailed, its dead. they admitted to hacking, they were banned.
The thing that makes me sad about this is how someone can skyrocket to the top of the ladder without even being worried about being banned. How is top 200 not even checked?
I personally know someone who his hacking, he even proposed to me to download the hack he is using. He has a production bar, a unit bar, maphack and all of that stuff.
Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
On March 13 2011 07:41 dAPhREAk wrote: could care less whether you hacked. ever play on US East? its 90% hacks. just don't come on the forums and brag about how you are a better hacker (my interpretation alone maybe).
That is one bold statement. I've never felt like I played against a hacker (oh wiat, you mean BW? yeah BW had a lot of hackers heh)
yeah BW. US East was either lag hacks, drop hacks, or maphacks, then flaming by messages after you lost to the hacks.
mike, yesterday i laughed at your thread and i demanded the party host to bring you in, so i can explained to everyone about your story, then you raged and called me a gook and left skype.
furthermore, how am i suppose to know that you know how to use google?
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
you said:
The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack)
that is bragging. you are saying that you were good at hacking and weren't caught. even if it occurred 8 years ago, you are still bragging about not being caught.
No, it's not bragging, it's a description of one of the actions I would take to hide the fact that I was cheating. And observing the fact that, ironically, it actually improved my overall play. It's simply sharing with the community the fact that just because someone pretends to scout doesn't mean that they are playing legit.
You can read the end of my post where I spell out the absolute best (and really, only) legitimate evidence that you can pull from a replay while analyzing it for suspected map-hacks.
Anyways, I'm not going to further derail this thread any longer just because you're oversensitive about someone admitting the things they've done in the past in an effort to help people spot it in the future. You can reply, or not, but I'm done replying to you.
okay, the fact that you said "really REALLY good" was not bragging. i stand corrected. you are right, it was merely a statement, not a boast. thank you for clarifying that for me. no need to respond as well, because i was clearly wrong that you were not bragging when you emphasized your skills at hacking by using a double word, and all caps for the second word. i admit my misinterpretation.
this thread isn't derailed, its dead. they admitted to hacking, they were banned.
I personally don't think this thread should be considered dead and closed until it is confirmed Blizzard banned both of those guys. Publicizing the cheaters like this is really the only way to make Blizzard take an immediate action (as opposed to their wave bans every however many months) from what I've observed.
On March 13 2011 07:56 TommyLove wrote: mike, yesterday i laughed at your thread and i demanded the party host to bring you in, so i can explained to everyone about your story, then you raged and called me a gook and left skype.
furthermore, how am i suppose to know that you know how to use google?
seriously...
TommyLove, are you really asking someone that question? Google Chrome is my default browser. It's 2011 bro, who in the WORLD does NOT know how to use google who uses the internet?!?!?!?
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: The thing that makes me sad about this is how someone can skyrocket to the top of the ladder without even being worried about being banned. How is top 200 not even checked?
I personally know someone who his hacking, he even proposed to me to download the hack he is using. He has a production bar, a unit bar, maphack and all of that stuff.
Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
Would you please report that guy for the benefit of the starcraft community?
On March 13 2011 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote: its amazing that you are bragging about hacking and how good you were at hiding it. once a cheater, always a cheater. tl doesnt have to ban you, but it should
It's amazing that you are incapable of differentiating between someone bragging, and someone describing the actions that a hacker will take during a game to hide their cheating. I've done nothing more than spell out the types of actions that one should look for when analyzing a replay of a suspected cheater.
you said:
The one thing I noticed back when I maphacked in BW was that by trying to cover up my map-hack, I got really REALLY good at sending scouts across the map so that it wouldn't look suspicious when I was prepared for attacks or took out an undefended expansion (ironically, improving my scouting when I wasn't using a map hack)
that is bragging. you are saying that you were good at hacking and weren't caught. even if it occurred 8 years ago, you are still bragging about not being caught.
No, it's not bragging, it's a description of one of the actions I would take to hide the fact that I was cheating. And observing the fact that, ironically, it actually improved my overall play. It's simply sharing with the community the fact that just because someone pretends to scout doesn't mean that they are playing legit.
You can read the end of my post where I spell out the absolute best (and really, only) legitimate evidence that you can pull from a replay while analyzing it for suspected map-hacks.
Anyways, I'm not going to further derail this thread any longer just because you're oversensitive about someone admitting the things they've done in the past in an effort to help people spot it in the future. You can reply, or not, but I'm done replying to you.
okay, the fact that you said "really REALLY good" was not bragging. i stand corrected. you are right, it was merely a statement, not a boast. thank you for clarifying that for me. no need to respond as well, because i was clearly wrong that you were not bragging when you emphasized your skills at hacking by using a double word, and all caps for the second word. i admit my misinterpretation.
this thread isn't derailed, its dead. they admitted to hacking, they were banned.
I personally don't think this thread should be considered dead and closed until it is confirmed Blizzard banned both of those guys. Publicizing the cheaters like this is really the only way to make Blizzard take an immediate action (as opposed to their wave bans every however many months) from what I've observed.
true. i hope someone will update the op when blizzard takes some action, as i have played these guys in 2v2 a lot. never thought they hacked because i didnt think anyone would risk it when you can lose your account. amazed to find out one actually did. now i want someone to say protech hacks, so that i can justify all my losses to him too. =D
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: The thing that makes me sad about this is how someone can skyrocket to the top of the ladder without even being worried about being banned. How is top 200 not even checked?
I personally know someone who his hacking, he even proposed to me to download the hack he is using. He has a production bar, a unit bar, maphack and all of that stuff.
Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
Would you please report that guy for the benefit of the starcraft community?
I did actually, as well as another of my friend who is using the same one. I don't know him in real life so I couldn't care less if he can't play anymore.
On March 13 2011 07:56 TommyLove wrote: mike, yesterday i laughed at your thread and i demanded the party host to bring you in, so i can explained to everyone about your story, then you raged and called me a gook and left skype.
furthermore, how am i suppose to know that you know how to use google?
seriously...
TommyLove, are you really asking someone that question? Google Chrome is my default browser. It's 2011 bro, who in the WORLD does NOT know how to use google who uses the internet?!?!?!?
R O F L
you. you had to drop out of high school, so u had to get ur GED so you can enroll in the military... i didn't the armed forces taught u how to use google
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: The thing that makes me sad about this is how someone can skyrocket to the top of the ladder without even being worried about being banned. How is top 200 not even checked?
I personally know someone who his hacking, he even proposed to me to download the hack he is using. He has a production bar, a unit bar, maphack and all of that stuff.
Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
Would you please report that guy for the benefit of the starcraft community?
The problem is that reporting him won't actually help anything unless Blizzard starts to take action on investigating reported hackers. I sent them a report on a guy I know personally that was using a maphack back in BETA and he wasn't banned until the first wave of bans that occurred after the game was officially released.
Guys, let's try to keep this thread clean. I have a feeling Josh Price and David Zhu would love to see this thread closed because it goes out of control and I wouldn't want that to happen until they're gone from bnet.
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
I doubt Blizzard are that ignorant of such hacks. As we know, bans come in waves and they are probably trying to fix it right now, it just takes some time perhaps?
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
I doubt Blizzard are that ignorant of such hacks. As we know, bans come in waves and they are probably trying to fix it right now, it just takes some time perhaps?
I think that banning in waves is a terrible idea. Why should we have to endure people that hacks for like 2-3 months before they finnally get banned. If I steal a car I will get arrested as soon as the police finds evidence that it was i that stole the car, not afther 3 months when they decide that it is time to arrest everyone that commit in crime in the past 6 months.
On March 12 2011 22:32 Pete! wrote: Town wins! This game seemed to have a pretty unfair Red:Blue ratio if my estimates are correct. Mafia almost succeeded in misguiding several Greens and Blues but clearly not enough.
In all seriousness, however good it is for the community to be able to thwart cheaters like this, I'd recommend caution to everyone who feels the need to express themselves so caustically, regardless of which 'side' they're representing. A vast majority of the posts in this thread seem unnecessary and many don't move the discussion forward in either direction - be it a lynch or a save. (In fact, more than one person who was correct about iGware has embarrassed themselves through their behaviour in this thread.)
Actually, I'm fairly sure it ended in a lyncher win for ProTech, get your facts straight
I would have listed PinkPrincess as a traitor... if they were a medic, though, definitely a VI
In all seriousness, though, this doesn't surprise me. Ret's post was where I decided "this guy is definitely hacking", for the record. Sending a probe to scout an overlord you should have known you could see is like wtf. NOONE QUOTED IT either, and PinkPrincess + Show Spoiler +
(who would make that name as a guy... serious problem there, but that can be addressed personally)
even slandered/tried to make Ret seem less credible.
Considering PinkPrincess said if the guy was caught hacking, you could ban him, I would honestly support a 2 day ban for him.
This is sad to see because I hadn't really associated SC2 with hacking, and having played on USEast in BW more than any other server, it was sort of refreshing. I guess I was naive.
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
I doubt Blizzard are that ignorant of such hacks. As we know, bans come in waves and they are probably trying to fix it right now, it just takes some time perhaps?
I think that banning in waves is a terrible idea. Why should we have to endure people that hacks for like 2-3 months before they finnally get banned. If I steal a car I will get arrested as soon as the police finds evidence that it was i that stole the car, not afther 3 months when they decide that it is time to arrest everyone that commit in crime in the past 6 months.
It's not about stopping the hacks, it's about perception.
It impresses more people when Blizzard is able to say "We banned over 9000 accounts this month that we caught hacking." instead of quietly staying on top of the problem.
I think that Blizzard believes that making grand announcements will scare more people into avoiding the use of hacks in the first place, when really, the best defense against hacks is a quick response before it gets out of hand.
On March 13 2011 05:02 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I have zero sympathy for hacking. Even if you let someone hack on your account, you're also cheating. Get this crap off SC2, it just hurts e-sports. You're worse than steroids in baseball.
Hacking pisses me off too, but cmon worse than steroids in baseball? You are being a little overdramatic, this is nowhere near the same thing...
Actually knowing a little about steroids it would not surprise me if the majority of baseball players did a cycle of growth hormones a few years before they went pro. I don't know any baseball players but I do know a lot of hockey players and the majority of them did that in high school. They are completely undetectable a year or so after the fact and you only need to use them once. The public just has this preconception that their sports heroes are all clean and pure and they freak out when the blatantly obvious is publicly revealed.
I would say you would be hard pressed to find more then 1 in 10 pro athletes that hasn't juiced at some point in their lives.
On March 13 2011 08:15 TooL wrote: You catch more cheaters that way.
You can prevent people from cheating in the first place if the first 10 people caught using the hack are banned immediately and cause the creator of the program to go back to the drawing board. It's great that Blizzard waits in order to catch all the people that WANT to hack (and who eventually do once they think they've found an undetectable program), but I would personally prefer that they never get the chance to use that program to begin with.
On March 13 2011 08:15 nalgene wrote: Because if they ban one guy... they lose the possibility of banning hundreds more... if they go and report that X/Y/Z offsets is/are detected...
Well, maybe that 50 out of those 100 hackers were told by others hackers that it was safe since they weren't banned. Wich is obviously not true.
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
I doubt Blizzard are that ignorant of such hacks. As we know, bans come in waves and they are probably trying to fix it right now, it just takes some time perhaps?
I think that banning in waves is a terrible idea. Why should we have to endure people that hacks for like 2-3 months before they finnally get banned. If I steal a car I will get arrested as soon as the police finds evidence that it was i that stole the car, not afther 3 months when they decide that it is time to arrest everyone that commit in crime in the past 6 months.
It's not about stopping the hacks, it's about perception.
It impresses more people when Blizzard is able to say "We banned over 9000 accounts this month that we caught hacking." instead of quietly staying on top of the problem.
I think that Blizzard believes that making grand announcements will scare more people into avoiding the use of hacks in the first place, when really, the best defense against hacks is a quick response before it gets out of hand.
I don't think it's necessarily about perception ... because you can always ban in smaller waves and just announce after 6 months ... "we've banned over 9000 accounts". You can still do things incrementally and then announce after a certain period of time that you've banned a certain impressive number of accounts.
On March 13 2011 08:15 TooL wrote: You catch more cheaters that way.
You can prevent people from cheating in the first place if the first 10 people caught using the hack are banned immediately and cause the creator of the program to go back to the drawing board. It's great that Blizzard waits in order to catch all the people that WANT to hack (and who eventually do once they think they've found an undetectable program), but I would personally prefer that they never get the chance to use that program to begin with.
On March 13 2011 07:56 SpiZe wrote: Juts googling the name of the hack has gotten me like 10 download links. I cannot belive Blizzard doesn't know about those website. It's not even private! Nothing stops them from downloading it and fiding a way to fix it or find a way to caugh people that are using it.
Guess there will always be hackers, no matter what you do. It's kind of sad if you think about it.
I doubt Blizzard are that ignorant of such hacks. As we know, bans come in waves and they are probably trying to fix it right now, it just takes some time perhaps?
I think that banning in waves is a terrible idea. Why should we have to endure people that hacks for like 2-3 months before they finnally get banned. If I steal a car I will get arrested as soon as the police finds evidence that it was i that stole the car, not afther 3 months when they decide that it is time to arrest everyone that commit in crime in the past 6 months.
It's not about stopping the hacks, it's about perception.
It impresses more people when Blizzard is able to say "We banned over 9000 accounts this month that we caught hacking." instead of quietly staying on top of the problem.
I think that Blizzard believes that making grand announcements will scare more people into avoiding the use of hacks in the first place, when really, the best defense against hacks is a quick response before it gets out of hand.
I don't think it's necessarily about perception ... because you can always ban in smaller waves and just announce after 6 months ... "we've banned over 9000 accounts". You can still do things incrementally and then announce after a certain period of time that you've banned a certain impressive number of accounts.
You might be right, but in a case like you describe the word would still get out to the community that hackers are being banned, and the hacks would actually be pulled while the programmers tried to create something else.
Probably resulting in way less bans by Blizzard, because a large number of cheats would be prevented from cheating in the first place. Resulting in less opportunity for Blizzard to make grand announcements about how well they're controlling the hacking in their games. I believe the perception that they are responding to hackers is more important to them than the perception that they're preventing the hackers from cheating to begin with. It's incredibly hard to announce that "We've PREVENTED over 9000 hackers from cheating this month." and a lack of announcements of banning people would leave many casual gamers (Blizzard's most important group to target and impress) suspecting that Blizzard simply aren't catching the vast majority of the players who DO cheat.
They could always keep an active list somewhere that would track all of the banned account-names for people to reference, but that would still hinder their ability to make grand announcements to the masses (the people that Blizzard considers most important).
That said, I could be entirely wrong, at this point I'm just talking out of my ass with hypotheses.
On March 13 2011 08:15 TooL wrote: You catch more cheaters that way.
You can prevent people from cheating in the first place if the first 10 people caught using the hack are banned immediately and cause the creator of the program to go back to the drawing board. It's great that Blizzard waits in order to catch all the people that WANT to hack (and who eventually do once they think they've found an undetectable program), but I would personally prefer that they never get the chance to use that program to begin with.
On March 13 2011 07:56 TommyLove wrote: mike, yesterday i laughed at your thread and i demanded the party host to bring you in, so i can explained to everyone about your story, then you raged and called me a gook and left skype.
furthermore, how am i suppose to know that you know how to use google?
seriously...
TommyLove, are you really asking someone that question? Google Chrome is my default browser. It's 2011 bro, who in the WORLD does NOT know how to use google who uses the internet?!?!?!?
R O F L
you. you had to drop out of high school, so u had to get ur GED so you can enroll in the military... i didn't the armed forces taught u how to use google
S O R R Y
Maybe you should learn english before you post nonsense ^_^
After reading several pages after the admissions, to me it seems like a bunch of hacker friends had a split up and now are trying to take each other down. Looks like PinkPrincess is the only survivor from looking at the icons. Hacker Shore, lots of drama!
On March 13 2011 09:21 ImHuko wrote: After reading several pages after the admissions, to me it seems like a bunch of hacker friends had a split up and now are trying to take each other down. Looks like PinkPrincess is the only survivor from looking at the icons. Hacker Shore, lots of drama!
This could have been right, except for the fact that sorcery came out of the closet and blatantly told the entire starcraft community that he hacks.
After reading some of the posts in here, I didn't believe the features that hacks had. Observer features (unit/production tabs), not showing in replays etc...
So I went and had a quick google and the first hack that shows up has not only these features, but also things like Nuke alerts where it pings on minimap, instantly beat AI (what is the point in this?), ability to watch other people's cameras, achievement unlocking...
holy shit, how do people using these things not get caught? hell, how is it possible to unlock the observer mode features when you're playing unless Blizzard severely fucked up their protection?
On March 13 2011 09:43 Jimmeh wrote: After reading some of the posts in here, I didn't believe the features that hacks had. Observer features (unit/production tabs), not showing in replays etc...
So I went and had a quick google and the first hack that shows up has not only these features, but also things like Nuke alerts where it pings on minimap, instantly beat AI (what is the point in this?), ability to watch other people's cameras, achievement unlocking...
holy shit, how do people using these things not get caught? hell, how is it possible to unlock the observer mode features when you're playing unless Blizzard severely fucked up their protection?
It is possible because everything that you see in a replay is avalible on your computer while playing the game. It isn't server side, so that means all you have to do is hack your own computer to get the info. This is how all of these hacks work, and why the only thing blizzard can do is monitor the programs you use and ban you later (they can never stop the hacks if it is available on your computer they can only ban offenders and make the hackers create work arounds).
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
He's not asking for maphacks. He's asking for a history of hackers who were caught int the past.
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here:
I think the reason behind Sorcery playing on iGware's account is that they both thought they could blame each other if they got caught. Sorcery thought that his main account would stay safe no matter what and he could also make up an excuse by saying "oh, but he tempted me and he was my friend so I couldn't turn him down". iGware thought he could excuse himself by saying "oh, but Sorcery was the one playing on my account. I'm not the one who actually cheated."
Wasn't Sorcery that really good Canadian Chen player who was found maphacking then kicked off that one good North American DotA team? Or am I thinking of another player?
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here:
Thanks M8! I was trying to find TT1 on google but nothing starcraft related except a starcraft 2 player who i don't think is the one from broodwar...or is he?
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here:
Thanks M8! I was trying to find TT1 on google but nothing starcraft related except a starcraft 2 player who i don't think is the one from broodwar...or is he?
Nope, it's the same one. he's since been forgiven by the community, as he was actually someone who contributed a lot, and has been clean ever since.
Even more famous players have been known hackers/cheaters in the past, two obvious ones I can think of: haypro - caught using Oblivion hack whilst spectacting, admitted to it but said it was only for observing. Not too sure what happened in the end. DIMAGA - cheated TSL to increase rank (gave himself two free wins I believe). Not hacking obviously, but not exactly the image that you expect of him when you think of him today.
There's a few more semi-pros I can think of who cheated in TSL (not hacking), such as Sarens and Pomi.
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here:
Thanks M8! I was trying to find TT1 on google but nothing starcraft related except a starcraft 2 player who i don't think is the one from broodwar...or is he?
Nope, it's the same one. he's since been forgiven by the community, as he was actually someone who contributed a lot, and has been clean ever since.
Even more famous players have been known hackers/cheaters in the past, two obvious ones I can think of: haypro - caught using Oblivion hack whilst spectacting, admitted to it but said it was only for observing. Not too sure what happened in the end. DIMAGA - cheated TSL to increase rank (gave himself two free wins I believe). Not hacking obviously, but not exactly the image that you expect of him when you think of him today.
In fact, quite a few of the current SC2 pros who used to play BW cheated at some point, whether through actual hacking or by cheating to try and get into the TSL.
correct me if im wrong.. wasnt Testie was caught hacking many times back in the old old days. Like, the x17 days, before he joined Nal or ToT or MYM or any of those other teams..
(when he was DS-Testie)
since then, he was arguably the best North American SC player for years when he was in ToT and MYM, and now is one of the top players in HoN. So when I thnk of players rebounding from hacking, he is #1 in my mind, then TT1 and Haypro
TT1 and haypro used to hack... wtf? Can someone elaborate on these cases...im rather curious, espcially considering both are embraced in todays SC2 community.
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here:
Thanks M8! I was trying to find TT1 on google but nothing starcraft related except a starcraft 2 player who i don't think is the one from broodwar...or is he?
Nope, it's the same one. he's since been forgiven by the community, as he was actually someone who contributed a lot, and has been clean ever since.
Even more famous players have been known hackers/cheaters in the past, two obvious ones I can think of: haypro - caught using Oblivion hack whilst spectacting, admitted to it but said it was only for observing. Not too sure what happened in the end. DIMAGA - cheated TSL to increase rank (gave himself two free wins I believe). Not hacking obviously, but not exactly the image that you expect of him when you think of him today.
In fact, quite a few of the current SC2 pros who used to play BW cheated at some point, whether through actual hacking or by cheating to try and get into the TSL.
correct me if im wrong.. wasnt Testie was caught hacking many times back in the old old days. Like, the x17 days, before he joined Nal or ToT or MYM or any of those other teams..
(when he was DS-Testie)
since then, he was arguably the best North American SC player for years when he was in ToT and MYM, and now is one of the top players in HoN. So when I thnk of players rebounding from hacking, he is #1 in my mind, then TT1 and Haypro
Yup you're right. he was caught hacking, and I believe he confessed. Since then I don't believe he's hacked again.
I chose to not mention him since I don't believe he's been playing much (any?) SC2.
On March 13 2011 11:18 Peas wrote: TT1 and haypro used to hack... wtf? Can someone elaborate on these cases...im rather curious, espcially considering both are embraced in todays SC2 community.
I linked a thread detailing TT1's previous hacking experience a few posts up (seriously, how lazy are you).
Regarding haypro, I'm honestly not too sure but from what I remember there was proof he was using the Oblivion hack (map hack, mineral hack, auto split, drop hack, MBS... can't think of what else it contained but, essentially, it was an all-in-one hack) whilst spectating a game. he admitted to it when confronted. If I remember correctly, his clan mates stuck up for him and insisted he never cheated whilst playing and, again if I remember correctly, people let it go.
EDIT:
Regarding haypro. From Liquipedia: "# Was caught using Oblivion hack in the spring 2008. Claimed it was unintentional but was kicked out of the Swedish National team and ToT for a year before he got back into both. "
On March 13 2011 10:58 Weasel- wrote: Wasn't Sorcery that really good Canadian Chen player who was found maphacking then kicked off that one good North American DotA team? Or am I thinking of another player?
Nah he wasnt that good.We (zG,KD) used to scrim and had clan matches with them a few times.Forgot their clan name tho
Common hacking (map/prod/etc) isn't the biggest problem of SC2 in terms of cheating.
The Warden system doesn't check files for CRC. The same OGC-like model-modifying features are appearing (It's easy enough to find videos of them on most streaming websites).
Guy fires up his hack and SHAZAM the minimap lights up with the type of unit you're making.
The most ironic part of this whole mess being that most of the maphacks currently existing weren't even made from scratch and usual memory exploration but copied most of their routines from the galaxy editor. Blizz made it kind of... "too deep".
On March 13 2011 09:49 JBrown08 wrote: It is possible because everything that you see in a replay is avalible on your computer while playing the game. It isn't server side, so that means all you have to do is hack your own computer to get the info. This is how all of these hacks work, and why the only thing blizzard can do is monitor the programs you use and ban you later (they can never stop the hacks if it is available on your computer they can only ban offenders and make the hackers create work arounds).
Something like that wouldn't be happening if Blizzard, instead of trying to perpetuate their already-failed-in-wow warden system, simply put random 3-way CRC/Hash checks during games.
I mean what the hell really... Cheating Death did it in freakin' FPS 10 years ago and it was player-created...
On March 12 2011 11:56 Looky wrote: why is blizzard so bad and creating anti hack. even iccup stopped most of it.
You cannot prevent cheating, simply put.
hon can pretty much. not saying their system would work for other games cause i dont know that. but they did a awesome job to prevent cheating.
I know you said that you're not saying their system would work for other games, but I'd like to say that the way they do it would defintely never work for SC2.
heroes of Newerth does it by limiting what information the client receives until absolutely necessary. This is easy because, at most, you're tracking 10(?) individual heroes. Whereas, compared to SC2, you have, potentially, hundreds of units to keep track of. As a result, it's almost impossible to send limited data to the client without either huge amounts of prediction (which would be wasteful) or making the game almost unplayable because important information's being missed.
It'd work for FPS games and games similar to heroes of Newerth, but it'd never work for an RTS game.
On March 13 2011 11:57 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: hon can pretty much. not saying their system would work for other games cause i dont know that. but they did a awesome job to prevent cheating.
Doesn't apply. It technically could since HoN has to (numerically) keep up with a lot more shit but they function as stand-alone servers and hence can handle the payload of data. When a server of HoN goes dark you can just hop onto another of the 100's around. When Bnet goes dark, you go dark with it.
Then there's the problem of bandwidth. An hour of intensive HoN play sucks up about 25 Mb. SC2 takes around 12 Mb and has to handle a player base that is EASILY (I like hon too but let's be honest) a thousand times bigger and handle server bandwidth as well for all these fancy tabs and rankings.
Not even Cogent or Level3 could sustain such an enormous output of data for very long without completely crippling their infrastructure.
On March 13 2011 11:56 C5Five wrote: Common hacking (map/prod/etc) isn't the biggest problem of SC2 in terms of cheating.
The Warden system doesn't check files for CRC. The same OGC-like model-modifying features are appearing (It's easy enough to find videos of them on most streaming websites).
Guy fires up his hack and SHAZAM the minimap lights up with the type of unit you're making.
The most ironic part of this whole mess being that most of the maphacks currently existing weren't even made from scratch and usual memory exploration but copied most of their routines from the galaxy editor. Blizz made it kind of... "too deep".
On March 13 2011 09:49 JBrown08 wrote: It is possible because everything that you see in a replay is avalible on your computer while playing the game. It isn't server side, so that means all you have to do is hack your own computer to get the info. This is how all of these hacks work, and why the only thing blizzard can do is monitor the programs you use and ban you later (they can never stop the hacks if it is available on your computer they can only ban offenders and make the hackers create work arounds).
Something like that wouldn't be happening if Blizzard, instead of trying to perpetuate their already-failed-in-wow warden system, simply put random 3-way CRC/Hash checks during games.
I mean what the hell really... Cheating Death did it in freakin' FPS 10 years ago and it was player-created...
It's just sad
I don't understand. What are you planning to do CRC checks of? Portions of memory? Cause a maphack doesn't need to modify memory to work, only read not write. You're talking about something modifying game files to achieve this right? If that is the method it's certainly not the only method. CRC can't stop this.
On March 13 2011 12:28 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't understand. What are you planning to do CRC checks of? Portions of memory? Cause a maphack doesn't need to modify memory to work, only read not write. You're talking about something modifying game files to achieve this right? If that is the method it's certainly not the only method. CRC can't stop this.
In some instances, yes, it can "just" read memory but that's mostly for solo games. Most maphacks however 'bridge' themselves with a game using a dll hook to pass their modifications 'under the rug'.
After reading your message, just out of curiosity I fired up SC2 and softice to see just what the hell's going on in there and I can honestly tell you, no hacker will ever be found nor banned using that system unless they want to.
Warden does a number of VERY visible checks during the game and doesn't even try to hide itself.
Example of checks: (intentionally removed the signatures, go away script kiddies) + Show Spoiler +
Basically what it does is take 2 or 3 huge ass queries at different locations in the memory, makes a hash out of it and compares its length with a second one. If they're matching (Ie: you're maphacking and a value is static like *no fog of war plz*), you get flagged.
The problem with this strategy is that all any competent hacker (or even cracker really, it's no different than removing a nag screen in a shareware) has to do is make these calls jump straight trough the code they inject.
What I meant to say was that they could do a full blown integrity check by comparing players "memory screenshots".
In a 1v1 situation for instance: Server periodically sends ALL information to both players (basically allowing for a "read only" maphack to work like 1 second), games generate a global hash out of that, send it back to the server that compares them. If after 2 or 3 sweeps the hash of one player changes (from game to game), it means they are cheating since they don't return carbon copies of the opponents "memory dump".
I might be going off the cliff with theory here but using such a method would allow to detect cheaters a LOT faster. The downsides would just be consuming a microscopic amount of additional bandwidth and CPU.
On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote: IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
I feel I need to clarify some things. I was one of the tournament organizers for this event. I allowed igware to compete from his home on the condition that he attends in person for the semi-finals (eventually, he did not comply with this condition). He told me that he lives quite a distance away from Berkeley and had some business that he needed to take care of during the time of our tournament. I did not think too much about it and permitted it under the promise that he would show up in person eventually to our event. I was not aware that he allowed Sorcery to play on his account, nor was I aware of Sorcery's history of hacking...
I am relatively new to the Starcraft community and want to be a positive contribution to the community. However, my lack of experience with setting up these events has allowed this to happen and I am very upset that this kind of affair is now associated with one of my first event =/
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote: I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_<
Didn't think much of it at the time, but here's a 2s vs Sorcery and DxT. Replay is self explanatory. He times his SCV perfectly, and then 'jokingly' says he hacks. Might have been luck. But since everyone is on him about hacking, I'll let you guys be the judge.
On March 13 2011 14:33 Fase wrote: Didn't think much of it at the time, but here's a 2s vs Sorcery and DxT. Replay is self explanatory. He times his SCV perfectly, and then 'jokingly' says he hacks. Might have been luck. But since everyone is on him about hacking, I'll let you guys be the judge.
Although I'm not one of the people who are playing on the stream, this should be his stream, from which he said he's going to stream all his games I believe... http://www.justin.tv/SorceryOwns
I didn't read the entire thread, but since there is no LAN in SC2 and because NASL is not an in-person event until the RO16, what is the procedure and policy going to be towards cheating? With a 400,000$ purse I hope they are taking every pre-caution to ensure legitimate matches. If you want to kill E-sports cheating in one of the bigger attempts at it will definitely kill it off, so I hope you guys have something in mind to prevent that from occuring as much as can be.
On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote: I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_<
i appreciate you organizing this tournament, but knowing that igware is willing to break the rules in the csl, why would you even believe this guy? my friend couldve won if he didnt play against him.
On March 13 2011 13:33 RandomRice wrote:
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
i hope that this is the last time something fishy happens involving cal and igware
On March 13 2011 13:58 RandomRice wrote: also, on the topic of CSL matches....
On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote: I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_<
i appreciate you organizing this tournament, but knowing that igware is willing to break the rules in the csl, why would you even believe this guy? my friend couldve won if he didnt play against him.
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
i hope that this is the last time something fishy happens involving cal and igware
We, or at the very least I did not know iGware's history. I myself was not liking the fact that he wasn't in person, and was too lax on it. A LAN is a LAN for a reason. In the future the rules are going to be very strict on attendance and smurf accounts. Attendance will be mandatory and smurfing with an account that is not your own will result in a permanent ban from out tournaments. For our next event, there will 100% be countermeasure to make sure that people like iGware do not ruin our tournaments.
How TommyLove made it to 23 posts before he got banned (and how that ban wasn't permanent) will never be known to me.
Semi-on topic: Shouldn't we bring these arguments to a new thread? This thread has gone on 10 more pages after the hackers admitted that they hack and now most of the posts aren't even about Sorcery or iGware.
More on-topic: Shame on iGware/Sorcery. It's people like them that resemble the cheaters in physical sports, except theres so many more hackers.
On March 13 2011 13:58 RandomRice wrote: also, on the topic of CSL matches....
On March 12 2011 12:46 SniXSniPe wrote: I've said this before... I'll say it again because he's being accused.
iGware played CSL matches even though he already graduated from Berkeley--- they were caught and are forfeited those matches pretty much, and now are out of the playoffs.
That's cheating a system, and now he's being accused of maphacking makes me disappointed and more against him...
BUT, I have yet to watch the replays. Innocent until proven guilty? >_<
i appreciate you organizing this tournament, but knowing that igware is willing to break the rules in the csl, why would you even believe this guy? my friend couldve won if he didnt play against him.
On March 13 2011 10:38 ftwpker wrote: Can anyone give me history of hacking/cheating in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 or link me to a site with info?
Im just really curious on this kind of stuff and want to know the in and outs of the topic.
You mean you want to download them and use them yourself... Google's not hard, takes anyone with a widget of computer knowledge 30 seconds to find them. People here dont like hackers, sure you might dominate your platinum division on the ladder until you are eventually caught (blizzard detected every single hack in wow that was put onto a public website, this aint a 10 year old game any more and they are quite serious).
Yes, just because I'm curious about the HISTORY of hacking in starcraft, I'm automatically a future hacker who goes on the ladder to reach the top rank when I'm not increasing my skill at all.
I only posted in here because i wanted to know about topic in the broodwar scene and how they were caught and any current sc2 hackers, but sadly google did not have any good sites.
Not exactly a history, but you can read some information about hackers getting caught in BW here:
Thanks M8! I was trying to find TT1 on google but nothing starcraft related except a starcraft 2 player who i don't think is the one from broodwar...or is he?
Nope, it's the same one. he's since been forgiven by the community, as he was actually someone who contributed a lot, and has been clean ever since.
Even more famous players have been known hackers/cheaters in the past, two obvious ones I can think of: haypro - caught using Oblivion hack whilst spectacting, admitted to it but said it was only for observing. Not too sure what happened in the end. DIMAGA - cheated TSL to increase rank (gave himself two free wins I believe). Not hacking obviously, but not exactly the image that you expect of him when you think of him today.
In fact, quite a few of the current SC2 pros who used to play BW cheated at some point, whether through actual hacking or by cheating to try and get into the TSL.
correct me if im wrong.. wasnt Testie was caught hacking many times back in the old old days. Like, the x17 days, before he joined Nal or ToT or MYM or any of those other teams..
(when he was DS-Testie)
since then, he was arguably the best North American SC player for years when he was in ToT and MYM, and now is one of the top players in HoN. So when I thnk of players rebounding from hacking, he is #1 in my mind, then TT1 and Haypro
Yup you're right. he was caught hacking, and I believe he confessed. Since then I don't believe he's hacked again.
I chose to not mention him since I don't believe he's been playing much (any?) SC2.
On March 13 2011 11:18 Peas wrote: TT1 and haypro used to hack... wtf? Can someone elaborate on these cases...im rather curious, espcially considering both are embraced in todays SC2 community.
I linked a thread detailing TT1's previous hacking experience a few posts up (seriously, how lazy are you).
Regarding haypro, I'm honestly not too sure but from what I remember there was proof he was using the Oblivion hack (map hack, mineral hack, auto split, drop hack, MBS... can't think of what else it contained but, essentially, it was an all-in-one hack) whilst spectating a game. he admitted to it when confronted. If I remember correctly, his clan mates stuck up for him and insisted he never cheated whilst playing and, again if I remember correctly, people let it go.
EDIT:
Regarding haypro. From Liquipedia: "# Was caught using Oblivion hack in the spring 2008. Claimed it was unintentional but was kicked out of the Swedish National team and ToT for a year before he got back into both. "
if i actually remember correctly(im prob wrong though) he used it to obs games, and then forgot to cut it off in a real game, and then immediatly noticed the auto split but continued playing the game vs strelok anyway
On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote: IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
I feel I need to clarify some things. I was one of the tournament organizers for this event. I allowed igware to compete from his home on the condition that he attends in person for the semi-finals (eventually, he did not comply with this condition). He told me that he lives quite a distance away from Berkeley and had some business that he needed to take care of during the time of our tournament. I did not think too much about it and permitted it under the promise that he would show up in person eventually to our event. I was not aware that he allowed Sorcery to play on his account, nor was I aware of Sorcery's history of hacking...
I am relatively new to the Starcraft community and want to be a positive contribution to the community. However, my lack of experience with setting up these events has allowed this to happen and I am very upset that this kind of affair is now associated with one of my first event =/
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
I think it's a good thing you clarified this. No one can do anything perfect from the start when they first do something, like organizing a tournament. This happening, shows you learned from it. And you're honest about it. That's awesome in my opinion. Hackers/cheaters exist, and that's a fact. It's a shame that they knocked out people from a tournament in the past, but you're making the gesture that you don't want stuff like that to happen again in the future. I wish everyone could be as constructive as this.
I feel the thread served its purpose, and it sucks to see people saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" kind of stuff. Cheaters only fool themselves in the end. TT1 is the living proof of the fact that stealing once doesn't make you a thief for life.
Having a certain feeling for justice myself, it gives me a first feeling David Zhu and Josh Price should be banned for ever, or whatever punishment others have brought up in this thread. But really, give them a chance. Because that first feeling is a load of crap that doesn't ever help anything get better as a whole. The fact that cheating in this game isn't going to work out doesn't mean they are bad players for the rest of their lives. But they very well could be on the other hand. Who knows? Time will tell. If they fail at SC2, no one will notice anyway, and they will move on to another game, be it cheating or not. If they succeed at SC2, people will be proven wrong.
So where's that crystal sphere again that allows me to see the actual future, instead of mindlessly filling it in in my brain?
On March 12 2011 11:56 Looky wrote: why is blizzard so bad and creating anti hack. even iccup stopped most of it.
You cannot prevent cheating, simply put.
hon can pretty much. not saying their system would work for other games cause i dont know that. but they did a awesome job to prevent cheating.
You don't understand the in's and out's of hacking, you cannot prevent it. You can prevent it to a degree but you will never prevent cheating 100%.
Using a server model like HoN/S2 games does prevent it
only sending the information the player needs, or a slightly larger radius than line of sight does prevent maphacking.
Blizz is way behind the times and only falling further behind, Dota 2 will feature the same server side model for Dota 2.
Sorry but I must LOL at this statement. Nothing is hack proof with the right motivation. Any real hacker can give a shit about some cloud setup. If hackers really wanted to you couldn't post here. Don't ever be mistaken about that. <3
Using the HoN network model is not as easy as it seems, you don't have hundreds of units going into the vision all of a sudden in HoN. Applied to SC2 it would result in a very spikey traffic pattern and would probably really suck for people with poor connections.
On March 13 2011 20:12 Random() wrote: Using the HoN network model is not as easy as it seems, you don't have hundreds of units going into the vision all of a sudden in HoN. Applied to SC2 it would result in a very spikey traffic pattern and would probably really suck for people with poor connections.
yeah true the current model of star2 already has this issue without the cloud setup. I honestly don't believe warden hasn't worked in the past 2 years or so. If it did then half the hacks that cross Blizzard servers would get caught if it worked as they advertise but alas things liek this happen. I really believe Blizzard promotes more of a community effort to stop known hackers and it really benefits them as company. So in short they do this on purpose. It's all good. At least the people behind this particular account came clean with their behavoir rather than denying and abusing what they did more.
Just wanted to hear some opinions on what I've been thinking about after reading this thread.
If Blizzard doesn't devise an effective anti-hack system, would the scene wither away? I mean, if everything is centralized to Blizzard, there wouldn't really be a possibility of an ICCUP type of gateway or am I just completely wrong T_T?
It's too soon for hacks to be readily available for use T_T Is there even a completely hack-proof ladder?
On March 13 2011 20:38 ThePurist wrote: Just wanted to hear some opinions on what I've been thinking about after reading this thread.
If Blizzard doesn't devise an effective anti-hack system, would the scene wither away? I mean, if everything is centralized to Blizzard, there wouldn't really be a possibility of an ICCUP type of gateway or am I just completely wrong T_T?
It's too soon for hacks to be readily available for use T_T Is there even a completely hack-proof ladder?
Nope just report hackers since that is the policy and they will get investigated and banned if they are cheating. Sure people can make zero day hacks but if the community is on top of it then the cheaters will just fade with their 60+ dollar investment. Community police community.
On March 12 2011 11:56 Looky wrote: why is blizzard so bad and creating anti hack. even iccup stopped most of it.
You cannot prevent cheating, simply put.
hon can pretty much. not saying their system would work for other games cause i dont know that. but they did a awesome job to prevent cheating.
You don't understand the in's and out's of hacking, you cannot prevent it. You can prevent it to a degree but you will never prevent cheating 100%.
Using a server model like HoN/S2 games does prevent it
only sending the information the player needs, or a slightly larger radius than line of sight does prevent maphacking.
Blizz is way behind the times and only falling further behind, Dota 2 will feature the same server side model for Dota 2.
But SC2 is also not a DOTA clone, what may be possible for one may cause additional problems for the others. The amount of information is definately diferent, doing that may affect latency or bring any number of other problems. Doesn't HoN even lack replays?
people really dont knopw what they are talking about
hon is pretty hack proof because EVEN IF IT GETS HACKED the player doesnt have the data to really exploit with a map hack.
The tradeoff is that you have to wait for ages before you can dl the replay because you have to wait for the server to generate it.
HON has replays.
Its the sam with all secuiryt .. you cannot have anything ecure ... so you mitigate the risks. I am apalled that blizzard send both players all the data ... that is so 1998.
If you send people information they would be dumb not to use it. Moreover there would be better performance latency wise if they didnt send all of the data.
Just let blizzard ban him when they do their next ban wave. If you want to add him to the TL hacker database, thats cool, but this thread is kinda crazy. Blizzard bans hackers. Yes, not immediately, but if hes hacking, the next wave will get him.
On March 13 2011 20:50 Baarn wrote: Nope just report hackers since that is the policy and they will get investigated and banned if they are cheating. Sure people can make zero day hacks but if the community is on top of it then the cheaters will just fade with their 60+ dollar investment. Community police community.
You can't be serious...
There is no way in hell anyone would have the time to "investigate" all the reports considering if you're half-way decent you'll get reported for maphacking by every noob around at least 5 times a day.
On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote: IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
I feel I need to clarify some things. I was one of the tournament organizers for this event. I allowed igware to compete from his home on the condition that he attends in person for the semi-finals (eventually, he did not comply with this condition). He told me that he lives quite a distance away from Berkeley and had some business that he needed to take care of during the time of our tournament. I did not think too much about it and permitted it under the promise that he would show up in person eventually to our event. I was not aware that he allowed Sorcery to play on his account, nor was I aware of Sorcery's history of hacking...
I am relatively new to the Starcraft community and want to be a positive contribution to the community. However, my lack of experience with setting up these events has allowed this to happen and I am very upset that this kind of affair is now associated with one of my first event =/
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
I think it's a good thing you clarified this. No one can do anything perfect from the start when they first do something, like organizing a tournament. This happening, shows you learned from it. And you're honest about it. That's awesome in my opinion. Hackers/cheaters exist, and that's a fact. It's a shame that they knocked out people from a tournament in the past, but you're making the gesture that you don't want stuff like that to happen again in the future. I wish everyone could be as constructive as this. http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/ I feel the thread served its purpose, and it sucks to see people saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" kind of stuff. Cheaters only fool themselves in the end. TT1 is the living proof of the fact that stealing once doesn't make you a thief for life.
Having a certain feeling for justice myself, it gives me a first feeling David Zhu and Josh Price should be banned for ever, or whatever punishment others have brought up in this thread. But really, give them a chance. Because that first feeling is a load of crap that doesn't ever help anything get better as a whole. The fact that cheating in this game isn't going to work out doesn't mean they are bad players for the rest of their lives. But they very well could be on the other hand. Who knows? Time will tell. If they fail at SC2, no one will notice anyway, and they will move on to another game, be it cheating or not. If they succeed at SC2, people will be proven wrong.
So where's that crystal sphere again that allows me to see the actual future, instead of mindlessly filling it in in my brain?
The problem here is that this is not the first offense for either of these guys.
iGware (David Zhu) played in csl despite having already graduated and this caused the team he played for to be punished for it.
Also, iGware entered a local LAN tournament, deceived the organizers to let him play at home so that Sorcery can play in his place, and Sorcery most likely maphacked then as well considering he beat PainUser and Axslav on his way to the semifinals where he eventually got disqualified.
iGware (David Zhu) played in csl despite having already graduated and this caused the team he played for to be punished for it.
Also, iGware entered a local LAN tournament, deceived the organizers to let him play at home so that Sorcery can play in his place, and Sorcery most likely maphacked then as well considering he beat PainUser and Axslav on his way to the semifinals where he eventually got disqualified.
Exactly, it was a pretty big letdown when Sorcery was caught hacking in DOTA as he was known as the best ganker in North America at the time. For him to let down his friends and even possibly a few fans AGAIN is too much to forgive. I was great to run into him on ladder from time to time and seeing him do so well, at least in 2v2. But from now on, if he ever resurfaces in the gaming world any achievement he has will have an asterisk next to it.
On March 13 2011 19:57 Whizon wrote: Having a certain feeling for justice myself, it gives me a first feeling David Zhu and Josh Price should be banned for ever, or whatever punishment others have brought up in this thread. But really, give them a chance. Because that first feeling is a load of crap that doesn't ever help anything get better as a whole. The fact that cheating in this game isn't going to work out doesn't mean they are bad players for the rest of their lives. But they very well could be on the other hand. Who knows? Time will tell. If they fail at SC2, no one will notice anyway, and they will move on to another game, be it cheating or not. If they succeed at SC2, people will be proven wrong.
They've evidently already been given second and possibly third chances, since they were caught cheating in the past. They don't deserve more.
On March 13 2011 20:50 Baarn wrote: Nope just report hackers since that is the policy and they will get investigated and banned if they are cheating. Sure people can make zero day hacks but if the community is on top of it then the cheaters will just fade with their 60+ dollar investment. Community police community.
You can't be serious...
There is no way in hell anyone would have the time to "investigate" all the reports considering if you're half-way decent you'll get reported for maphacking by every noob around at least 5 times a day.
Mob rule used to burn witches you know...
Exactly, im usually told that im hacker at least 1 at day and im top 200 NA, so i guess that they report me every time if everything goes on and hackers start pumping there will be eventually a ladder like ICCUP otherwise the game will die
On March 14 2011 03:20 TT1 wrote: WTF why do i randomly always get mentioned in these threads
I doubt it is ever gonna stop :/ Even if you become the best legitimate player in the world there will always be someone to shit on your parade by saying "But see even TT1 cheated".
And with TSL3 comming up/the mention in SOTG more people are aware and likley to bring it up.
No one is shitting on him by any means. Nobody says his name like he's the bad guy; it's just he's the only notable player in recent times that has a back story similar to cases like this: someone is doing really good and it turned out they hacked. Testie's time is a far away now and who else are we gonna compare to, fucking Lastshadow?
We mentioned you because we're glad of what you did and we love you
On March 13 2011 05:42 PainUser wrote: IGware entered into a local LAN tournament at Berkeley in the San Francisco Bay Area. Proceeded to knock me and Axslav out in the first and second rounds of the tournament. The tournament organizers let him play from his dorm room if I'm not mistaken because he was a Berkeley student and there "weren't enough computers"? Several "friends" of his messaged me saying that Sorcery was infact playing on his account from another location and that he had been cheating the entire time. Really low stuff it's funny to see this thread after the fact.
I feel I need to clarify some things. I was one of the tournament organizers for this event. I allowed igware to compete from his home on the condition that he attends in person for the semi-finals (eventually, he did not comply with this condition). He told me that he lives quite a distance away from Berkeley and had some business that he needed to take care of during the time of our tournament. I did not think too much about it and permitted it under the promise that he would show up in person eventually to our event. I was not aware that he allowed Sorcery to play on his account, nor was I aware of Sorcery's history of hacking...
I am relatively new to the Starcraft community and want to be a positive contribution to the community. However, my lack of experience with setting up these events has allowed this to happen and I am very upset that this kind of affair is now associated with one of my first event =/
I promise that future events will have more strict regulations with players to prevent these kind of things happening again...
I think it's a good thing you clarified this. No one can do anything perfect from the start when they first do something, like organizing a tournament. This happening, shows you learned from it. And you're honest about it. That's awesome in my opinion. Hackers/cheaters exist, and that's a fact. It's a shame that they knocked out people from a tournament in the past, but you're making the gesture that you don't want stuff like that to happen again in the future. I wish everyone could be as constructive as this. http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/ I feel the thread served its purpose, and it sucks to see people saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" kind of stuff. Cheaters only fool themselves in the end. TT1 is the living proof of the fact that stealing once doesn't make you a thief for life.
Having a certain feeling for justice myself, it gives me a first feeling David Zhu and Josh Price should be banned for ever, or whatever punishment others have brought up in this thread. But really, give them a chance. Because that first feeling is a load of crap that doesn't ever help anything get better as a whole. The fact that cheating in this game isn't going to work out doesn't mean they are bad players for the rest of their lives. But they very well could be on the other hand. Who knows? Time will tell. If they fail at SC2, no one will notice anyway, and they will move on to another game, be it cheating or not. If they succeed at SC2, people will be proven wrong.
So where's that crystal sphere again that allows me to see the actual future, instead of mindlessly filling it in in my brain?
The problem here is that this is not the first offense for either of these guys.
iGware (David Zhu) played in csl despite having already graduated and this caused the team he played for to be punished for it.
Also, iGware entered a local LAN tournament, deceived the organizers to let him play at home so that Sorcery can play in his place, and Sorcery most likely maphacked then as well considering he beat PainUser and Axslav on his way to the semifinals where he eventually got disqualified.
I just want to clarify, he was not disqualified from the semifinals. He lost to another player, perhaps purposely, and then won in the 3rd/4th place match.
On March 14 2011 04:27 Gentso wrote: Makes me worry for the NASL ...
it's so easy to hack and pretend like you aren't.
Well you'd have to go to the LAN if you're in the top 16 right? So that wouldnt really be possible, unless you want to hack your way into the 17th spot
On March 12 2011 11:57 Diks wrote: I've watched yhe first replay and there is absolutely no sign of him hacking. And you won that game ! whats wrong with you ? your hidden expo was not discovered for nearly 10 minutes, he was surprise and out of postion on most of your drops. I've watched the game from his point of view, and that was a standard game that he lost.... Why suspecting him of cheating ?
I have to agree, the first game I'm not sure why you posted for your argument of him being a cheater, the game where he built 6 bunkers without scouting the baneling nest however was a bit odd. Can't say I am 100% convinced but I have my suspicions. Blizzard however, cannot ban people for just a replay, The cheaters need to be caught with the programs running on blizzard's client cheating. They need "proof" of them cheating, they can't just ban people from bnet when they pay 60$ for a game and just ban off a replay. They need solid proof of a cheater.
On March 14 2011 04:27 Gentso wrote: Makes me worry for the NASL ...
it's so easy to hack and pretend like you aren't.
Well you'd have to go to the LAN if you're in the top 16 right? So that wouldnt really be possible, unless you want to hack your way into the 17th spot
Ok but to get to the 17th spot you'd have to CHEAT your way there and take someone elses spot who is deserving and could potentially win the whole thing. What if Jinro/Idra or one of the players you enjoy watching loses to a hacker and then the hacker gets raped at the LAN lol?
On March 12 2011 11:57 Diks wrote: I've watched yhe first replay and there is absolutely no sign of him hacking. And you won that game ! whats wrong with you ? your hidden expo was not discovered for nearly 10 minutes, he was surprise and out of postion on most of your drops. I've watched the game from his point of view, and that was a standard game that he lost.... Why suspecting him of cheating ?
I have to agree, the first game I'm not sure why you posted for your argument of him being a cheater, the game where he built 6 bunkers without scouting the baneling nest however was a bit odd. Can't say I am 100% convinced but I have my suspicions. Blizzard however, cannot ban people for just a replay, The cheaters need to be caught with the programs running on blizzard's client cheating. They need "proof" of them cheating, they can't just ban people from bnet when they pay 60$ for a game and just ban off a replay. They need solid proof of a cheater.
Did you miss the post where he made a full confession? ~_~
On March 14 2011 04:27 Gentso wrote: Makes me worry for the NASL ...
it's so easy to hack and pretend like you aren't.
Well you'd have to go to the LAN if you're in the top 16 right? So that wouldnt really be possible, unless you want to hack your way into the 17th spot
Oh, interesting.. I thought the lan was for the finals only.
Of course hacks exist... One just needs to google search and can find the very hack this person used. It has all the features according to the site which I won't post obviously, to be able to not get caught.
-They can turn on map hack with fog of war on still but they can see through it, they can "lock" the camera on a specific location so that when they look into fog of war it doesn't show in the replay.
-They can also bring up unit tab and production tab while in game
-They can give themselves any achievements as well.
It's sad that this still goes on and blizzard only does bans in huge waves every 3-4 months.. but this is something that's never going to change.
On March 14 2011 03:20 TT1 wrote: WTF why do i randomly always get mentioned in these threads
I wonder.
Haha seriously, It's the most scumbag thing a starcraft player can ever do. Even if someone did it once 15 years ago it would still be brought up nowadays if they were well known enough.
damn. I was like WTF? someone is 50 points ahead of me?? how?? and laddered up and got my #1 back ^_^ However i wish I played versus him I think i still can beat him even though he plays with maphack
On March 14 2011 07:48 SeleCT wrote: damn. I was like WTF? someone is 50 points ahead of me?? how?? and laddered up and got my #1 back ^_^ However i wish I played versus him I think i still can beat him even though he plays with maphack
On March 14 2011 07:48 SeleCT wrote: damn. I was like WTF? someone is 50 points ahead of me?? how?? and laddered up and got my #1 back ^_^ However i wish I played versus him I think i still can beat him even though he plays with maphack
haha select i just wonder how you looked when you saw some xy guy took your spot on ladder :D
On March 14 2011 04:59 Khanz wrote: all of this makes me so sad, hacks do really exist... and lower divisions could be the hackfest by now so sad
I would say the upper divisions actually have a much greater percentage of hackers. Players in masters/diamond tend to care more about their rankings because they take this game more seriously and given the nature of SC2, if you know everything your opponents are doing, your chance of winning goes up by quite a bit, as even shown in Josh Price's case.
I just watched the 3rd replay and I laughed out loud when I saw the guy bring 4 scv's in the end to make a barracks wall to wall of HIS 2 ROW bunker wall off xDDD. Also the other guy's "Mutas?" quote cracked me up too, nice synergy ;]
What I can say is I really don't understand why they came here and wrote this confession thing. It makes no sense for them to do that, obviously people aren't going to go "Oh, they said they're sorry so it's all fine now."
On March 13 2011 03:09 Azide wrote: I too have played with Sorcery for quite a few games (haven't recently) and haven't played with him since these hacking accusations have gone around. It wasn't clear or hard to tell he was hacking at the point I played with him. He himself said he got the hack later on closer to when he started to mass 1v1s (I stopped playing with him before that). Protech has removed him from his friend's list and will never play with him again. I'll be doing the same.
Just have to point out that when this guy says neither he nor protech has played with sorcery or igware for a while, he's lying. Azide has a 2v2 team with sorcery that was rank 53 in its division last week, and is now rank 17. Also has a 2v2 team with iGware that was rank 35 last week and is now rank 21. Protech has at least one 3v3 team with sorcery that shows games played within the last week.
You can see that these guys were all friends and had a falling out. Clearly there is more to the story than we see in this thread.
YOu can see their profiles if you go to channel "clan hack". THey all hang out there.
On March 13 2011 03:09 Azide wrote: I too have played with Sorcery for quite a few games (haven't recently) and haven't played with him since these hacking accusations have gone around. It wasn't clear or hard to tell he was hacking at the point I played with him. He himself said he got the hack later on closer to when he started to mass 1v1s (I stopped playing with him before that). Protech has removed him from his friend's list and will never play with him again. I'll be doing the same.
Just have to point out that when this guy says neither he nor protech has played with sorcery or igware for a while, he's lying. Azide has a 2v2 team with sorcery that was rank 53 in its division last week, and is now rank 17. Also has a 2v2 team with iGware that was rank 35 last week and is now rank 21. Protech has at least one 3v3 team with sorcery that shows games played within the last week.
You can see that these guys were all friends and had a falling out. Clearly there is more to the story than we see in this thread.
YOu can see their profiles if you go to channel "clan hack". THey all hang out there.
lol zz
clearly we were friends. i removed him from my list when he admitted to hacking. i was suspicious of him after the time we played those 2v2 games when he got REALLY high on the 1v1 ladder. im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago. either way it doesnt matter. he's removed + wont be playing with him again.
protech made a team called 'hack' (not sure why hack :S) and i get invited into the channel all the time. now the b.net channel glitch has occurred i can't join or leave that channel but it says im in it.
you can even ask HuK he knows im legit :D <3 chris
On March 13 2011 03:09 Azide wrote: I too have played with Sorcery for quite a few games (haven't recently) and haven't played with him since these hacking accusations have gone around. It wasn't clear or hard to tell he was hacking at the point I played with him. He himself said he got the hack later on closer to when he started to mass 1v1s (I stopped playing with him before that). Protech has removed him from his friend's list and will never play with him again. I'll be doing the same.
Just have to point out that when this guy says neither he nor protech has played with sorcery or igware for a while, he's lying. Azide has a 2v2 team with sorcery that was rank 53 in its division last week, and is now rank 17. Also has a 2v2 team with iGware that was rank 35 last week and is now rank 21. Protech has at least one 3v3 team with sorcery that shows games played within the last week.
You can see that these guys were all friends and had a falling out. Clearly there is more to the story than we see in this thread.
YOu can see their profiles if you go to channel "clan hack". THey all hang out there.
I stopped playing with sorcery as soon as I had speculation that he was hacking. We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
Sorcery does not reside in my channel, nor did iGware. There has never been a single time since I created clan hack that I invited them into my channel. Obvious because my suspicion was there before I made my clan.
In relation to what you say about me playing with him recently, I only did it for investigative reasons, to further build my case. You can even ask sorcery himself, I literally stopped playing / talking outside of games that i was VSING him.
To answer your question Azide about why I called my clan hack, I actually just based it off an anime that I like to watch .//hack.
On March 14 2011 10:18 Azide wrote: im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago.
That actually makes no sense at all. When battle net gives your "rank last week" it's saying what your rank was at the end of that week. So, if your current rank is up from that, it means you've won games within the last seven days.
First you said you haven't played with him since before he started playing 1v1s. That's what, mid-February?
On March 14 2011 10:33 ProTech wrote:
We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
On March 14 2011 10:18 Azide wrote: im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago.
That actually makes no sense at all. When battle net gives your "rank last week" it's saying what your rank was at the end of that week. So, if your current rank is up from that, it means you've won games within the last seven days.
First you said you haven't played with him since before he started playing 1v1s. That's what, mid-February?
We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
Your 240-9 team doesn't go on 25 win streaks?
they could lose a game right before a streak i guess, i think with my math that is possible..(maybe?)
On March 14 2011 10:18 Azide wrote: im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago.
That actually makes no sense at all. When battle net gives your "rank last week" it's saying what your rank was at the end of that week. So, if your current rank is up from that, it means you've won games within the last seven days.
First you said you haven't played with him since before he started playing 1v1s. That's what, mid-February?
On March 14 2011 10:33 ProTech wrote:
We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
Your 240-9 team doesn't go on 25 win streaks?
they could lose a game right before a streak i guess, i think with my math that is possible..(maybe?)
On March 14 2011 10:18 Azide wrote: im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago.
That actually makes no sense at all. When battle net gives your "rank last week" it's saying what your rank was at the end of that week. So, if your current rank is up from that, it means you've won games within the last seven days.
First you said you haven't played with him since before he started playing 1v1s. That's what, mid-February?
im not gonna bother with an explanation as you probably won't believe me but i'll leave it at this:
as soon as there was damning evidence (protech sent me those replays about a week ago in conjunction with his 4300+ stats.. if i recall before last week he was below 4k which is reasonable) and with sorcery's confession i 1) did not play with him 2) removed him from friends list
in fact the day before the thread was made sorcery invited me to a party to play and i declined
On March 14 2011 10:18 Azide wrote: im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago.
That actually makes no sense at all. When battle net gives your "rank last week" it's saying what your rank was at the end of that week. So, if your current rank is up from that, it means you've won games within the last seven days.
First you said you haven't played with him since before he started playing 1v1s. That's what, mid-February?
We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
Your 240-9 team doesn't go on 25 win streaks?
3v3 and 2v2 are completely different. Half the time you are playing 3v3 RANDOM team that have never even played before. So needless to say 3v3 is a joke in sc2.
And just so you know, all the games that we lost in 3v3 is vs iGware / Sorcery on the same team.
We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
On March 14 2011 09:44 jester- wrote: I'd disagree and say most of the hackers are going to be in the lower leagues because they are either:
a) New to the game and don't want to learn or lose
b) Bad enough to need to cheat.
Either way, you have absolutely no way of knowing and neither do I, so why speculate?
We're both just stating our theories. There's nothing wrong with it even if we can't prove it statistically.
a) Sure, that is a good point, but it doesn't invalidate the idea the the higher league players care more about their rankings and are serious enough about it to consider using hacks, so let's say we're even here.
b) Those players who are bad enough to cheat will go up in leagues while using maphacks. Sorcery's game mechanic isn't very good, but he was able to put himself in the global top 5. Plenty of people in upper leagues (Which I consider as Diamond/Masters) have been caught maphacking as well as many high level bw players in the past. The idea that you have to be bad enough to cheat doesn't really work because people will always want more than what they have. I'm not saying that a diamond 3000+ hacker is actually at that skill level, but you'll find him there anyway because he is unfairly giving himself a huge advantage.
was wondering why this thread was relevant, but i just looked at sc2ranks and hes on top of NA lol. sucks to all those people who didn't deserve those losses :/
So, just to be clear and even after the guy ADMITTED to be hacking, almost none of you have any friggin' idea how a maphack works or how someone using such a cheat would evade warden/detection ?
On March 14 2011 10:18 Azide wrote: im pretty sure they were closer to 2 weeks ago as the games were probably played near the beginning of 2 weeks ago making it look like a week ago.
That actually makes no sense at all. When battle net gives your "rank last week" it's saying what your rank was at the end of that week. So, if your current rank is up from that, it means you've won games within the last seven days.
First you said you haven't played with him since before he started playing 1v1s. That's what, mid-February?
We had gone 25-0 which I found a little interesting because even with my best teams we don't go on huge streaks like that. You are always going to lose to at least ONE cheese in a stretch of that many games.
Your 240-9 team doesn't go on 25 win streaks?
You're dumb if you think Azide hacks, he's as legit as it gets.
On March 12 2011 11:58 Ourk wrote: well if he was hacking surely he whould been rdy for this hellion drop ? im talking about the 1v1
When i was playing CS and i was about 11 years old.. i used to use wallhack and fake shooting through boxes check corners i KNEW guys wernt there apperances are everything these days.
Is it this guy David Zhu who plays for berkeley? Looks like it. lol not a single win this season in Collegiate Starleague in 1v1s against a 1500 diamond and some 3300-3800 masters.
His sc2 ranks graph looks ridiculous its hilarious.
They reversed all his wins once they found out he was an alumni (not sure if that was the real reason). Sucks for Berkeley, as he had multiple wins for them, including some ace matches. I don't believe he lost a game, but then again there is no reason to assume he wasn't using a maphack for those matches as well.
Is it this guy David Zhu who plays for berkeley? Looks like it. lol not a single win this season in Collegiate Starleague in 1v1s against a 1500 diamond and some 3300-3800 masters.
His sc2 ranks graph looks ridiculous its hilarious.
Do you even bother reading posts, or do you just like to make fun of people? All of his results were overturned on account of him not being eligible, that's why they're all losses.
On March 14 2011 10:14 ffz wrote: nasl should require everyone to private stream their games so admins and only admins can watch their steams.
not everyone has a computer good enough to stream + play the game
just saying
true, but thats the only solution i can think of besides LAN to be hack proof. Maybe they can film their monitor with an iphone and send that to the tournament organizers if they can't stream. Or they can use vlc and just capture their desktop and upload it to megaupload or something. VLC doesn't really use that much power to capture desktop video.
All right! So the game starts off pretty normal, Terran and Protoss block their wall, Sorcery doing some retarded ass shit with his cannon rush(who's knows what that's all about.)
So you will notice that the cannon rush is thwarted 5:46 the nydus network goes down. Dxt sends his marine back from the ramp, but he notices my nydus network on his production tab and or map hack, and then goes into a panic trying to kill that overlord, meanwhile sorcery is doing the same exact thing. AT THAT EXACT TIME (ROFL?)
7:14 17 bane lings morph in, and the protoss starts spamming sentries even though they haven't scouted the bane ling nest.
7:18 baneling move out, notice their path in which they are taking, and watch the sentries @ the same time. The baneling are walking toward the terran, so what does Sorcery do? BAFL he moves the sentries to DxT's base!
7:30 Baneling stop their movement, and then switch to the protoss door as we scout the front and notice that there are not ANY sentries there, but look what he does! HE HAS NO VISION OF THE FUCKING BANELING YET HE CAN SET UP FOR THE ATTACK AS THEY MOVE TO HIS FRONT DOOR!!!!
So why isn't his account banned yet by Blizzard? Did you submit replays to Blizzard? I always wondered how his AT games are so high in win %, it's a shame since I've played against them before thinking they were legit.
On March 14 2011 20:03 bubblegumbo wrote: So why isn't his account banned yet by Blizzard? Did you submit replays to Blizzard? I always wondered how his AT games are so high in win %, it's a shame since I've played against them before thinking they were legit.
Some things in this thread really gave me a chuckle. First and foremost, Mike, I see you still haven't changed. When I read the original post, I said, this can't possible be the ProTech I know (using words other than g**k and the like), but reading all the consecutive replies of yours, my doubt was laid to rest Also, I chuckled when you said that you actually think in games, because you have to think on how to trick the hackers.. You were the most robotic player in BW and after seeing you have over 7000 games in SC2, I'm pretty sure your playstyle remained the same.
Another thing that I found amusing is how you propagated yourself as someone who caught countless people hacking in BW so it was impossible for you to be wrong:
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
The only person I know you were so strongly advertising that is hacking was ceO. And funny thing is, there was never a definitive proof of ceO hacking (even though he probably did). Now Arabia on other hand... -.-
Okok, I won't derail the thread anymore, but I just felt a need to keep your ego in check since you had a big victory by this thread. Congrats!
On March 14 2011 22:23 2Pacalypse- wrote: Interesting turn of the events
Some things in this thread really gave me a chuckle. First and foremost, Mike, I see you still haven't changed. When I read the original post, I said, this can't possible be the ProTech I know (using words other than g**k and the like), but reading all the consecutive replies of yours, my doubt was laid to rest Also, I chuckled when you said that you actually think in games, because you have to think on how to trick the hackers.. You were the most robotic player in BW and after seeing you have over 7000 games in SC2, I'm pretty sure your playstyle remained the same.
Another thing that I found amusing is how you propagated yourself as someone who caught countless people hacking in BW so it was impossible for you to be wrong:
On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote: protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
The only person I know you were so strongly advertising that is hacking was ceO. And funny thing is, there was never a definitive proof of ceO hacking (even though he probably did). Now Arabia on other hand... -.-
Okok, I won't derail the thread anymore, but I just felt a need to keep your ego in check since you had a big victory by this thread. Congrats!
edit: hi Peter o.O
That's because ceO never came out of the closet, but im 100% sure that he hacked, and probably does still hack.
Almost everyone I accuse of hacking is hacking -_-
ok well maybe josh was on DxT's account and DxT was on josh's lol
that or ofc he knows DxT was hacking or they both were. actually i think josh was streaming so he streams his screen which is clean and then DxT has the hack going on. really nice
On March 15 2011 04:08 Azide wrote: lol "Ive never hacked on my account before"
ok well maybe josh was on DxT's account and DxT was on josh's lol
that or ofc he knows DxT was hacking or they both were. actually i think josh was streaming so he streams his screen which is clean and then DxT has the hack going on. really nice
Yea don't listen to anything that sorcery says. Josh will lie through his teeth if there is any chance of a benefit for him. Its best to assume if you play anyone named Sorcery that they are hacking.
It's really no surprise if Sorcery and iGware are still hacking this second, even though they admitted it to us on TeamLiquid and *apologized*. They're still going to be winning on b.net until they get banned by Blizzard.
ProTech, did you report them to Blizzard and notify them of everything? Hopefully they'll get kicked from SC2.
You may want to sound a bit more professional when you report them, by the way. You used way to many capital letters and acronyms (LMAO, LOL, etc.).
All right! So the game starts off pretty normal, Terran and Protoss block their wall, Sorcery doing some retarded ass shit with his cannon rush(who's knows what that's all about.)
So you will notice that the cannon rush is thwarted 5:46 the nydus network goes down. Dxt sends his marine back from the ramp, but he notices my nydus network on his production tab and or map hack, and then goes into a panic trying to kill that overlord, meanwhile sorcery is doing the same exact thing. AT THAT EXACT TIME (ROFL?)
7:14 17 bane lings morph in, and the protoss starts spamming sentries even though they haven't scouted the bane ling nest.
7:18 baneling move out, notice their path in which they are taking, and watch the sentries @ the same time. The baneling are walking toward the terran, so what does Sorcery do? BAFL he moves the sentries to DxT's base!
7:30 Baneling stop their movement, and then switch to the protoss door as we scout the front and notice that there are not ANY sentries there, but look what he does! HE HAS NO VISION OF THE FUCKING BANELING YET HE CAN SET UP FOR THE ATTACK AS THEY MOVE TO HIS FRONT DOOR!!!!
Conclusion: Production tab hacking / Map hacking.
Josh Price was probably playing on DxT's account (considering terran made the first move when the nydus network started building and the baneling part was after "Sorcery" had left the game) meaning DxT was most likely aware of maphacking as well. Either that or DxT was maphacking himself with Sorcery obviously being aware of it.
I think Josh Price believes that Blizzard will not ban his main account as long as the warden doesn't detect anything specifically on that account, so he is going to keep pulling this BS as long as he is around.
What`s the point of playing this game hacking, i mean seriously whats the damn point. Pathetic scrubs. I wish they would find a way to ban anyone who hacks from playing any online games. The equivalent of the video game death sentence.
They need the GSL maps as soon as possible. And i didnt know about that production tab hack. So you suck so much that you cant even multi task your way while map hacking? That just made me pissed.
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
Because I know the people involved and confirmed it (after initially defending them so vociferously).
With regards to that replay Protech just posted - Sorcery livestreams all his games as it is. I spoke with DxT over Facebook, and he sent me the replay of that game from their perspective. I'll post it up when I get home and have taken a look at it.
e: hi Marko e2: and I agree that coogi looked extremely hackerish on BW for what it's worth.
How can we as fans ever trust non-LAN results? Observers aren't going to want to make an issue of it in games, they'll want to keep it quiet, because they won't know for sure either.
I put no stock in online results. They can map hack, or they can just have active coaching while they play.
And with money on the line they will.
This is going to be an issue sooner or later, ignore it at your own risk tourney admins!
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating.
What?!
David Zhu undoubtedly hacked. He even confessed to doing so in the past when we spoke this Friday. He said he quit 6 weeks ago or something to that effect, but he definitely was hacking on SC2 at one point. If he told you he never hacked himself, then he misled you.
That said, I couldn't speak as to whether or not he hacked in CSL.
That iGware account on the hack site genuinely was him, in case anyone was confused about that.
On March 15 2011 06:16 dsousa wrote: I noticed iGware is #2 in NA on Sc2ranks.com.
How can we as fans ever trust non-LAN results? Observers aren't going to want to make an issue of it in games, they'll want to keep it quiet, because they won't know for sure either.
I put no stock in online results. They can map hack, or they can just have active coaching while they play.
And with money on the line they will.
This is going to be an issue sooner or later, ignore it at your own risk tourney admins!
Mmmmm, may have misinterpreted what he said then....
As far as I'm concerned, the majority of igware's CSL matches are "legit"(as legit as they can be with alum playing). That's as far as I want to get involved in this affair.
On March 15 2011 06:16 dsousa wrote: I noticed iGware is #2 in NA on Sc2ranks.com.
How can we as fans ever trust non-LAN results? Observers aren't going to want to make an issue of it in games, they'll want to keep it quiet, because they won't know for sure either.
I put no stock in online results. They can map hack, or they can just have active coaching while they play.
And with money on the line they will.
This is going to be an issue sooner or later, ignore it at your own risk tourney admins!
I completely agree :D, there are tons of players that perform online, but not on LAN, makes you wonder :D, yet the sc2 community still holds online tournaments within the highest regard, shame.
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
It's very, very difficult to believe that he simply isn't continuing to deceive you after all that's happened. Unless you were watching his screen while he was playing in those CSL matches, I won't believe whatever he is saying about "oh, but only 1 game was played by Sorcery" or that he didn't know about the alumni rule.
According to their confessions, iGware is the one who got the maphack and suggested his own account to be used by Sorcery. Actually, iGware maphacked himself in the past according to PinkPrincess and that does not surprise me.
I have a feeling that you wanting to protect the honor of Berkeley's CSL team is making you trying to defend David Zhu whether or not you realize it yourself, and well, David Zhu being a cheater has nothing to do with your team and it will not compromise your team's reputation. You guys are one of the victims of his lies, not conspirators.
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
You know that guy? Dont you feel dirty? Tell him that the community think he`s a pathetic little "/$%@
And you know, if you got an Ace match, and you let someone play for you, that`s officially cheating right there. And not only it`s cheating, its cowardly cheating, because he uses Sorcery to hack.
That right there, is why people arent taking Esports seriously. There`s nothing to stop those shit from doing it.
And you know, if you got an Ace match, and you let someone play for you, that`s officially cheating right there. And not only it`s cheating, its cowardly cheating, because he uses Sorcery to hack.
That right there, is why people arent taking Esports seriously. There`s nothing to stop those shit from doing it.
To be fair, the fact that the community blacklists and casts out the cheaters and hackers, no matter how revered they once were (like Savior, even), shows that it is something to be taken seriously. It's handled the same in any sport or activity.
I think the reason that e-sports isn't taken seriously is because it's *just video games*, and it therefore has that negative stigma attached to it. The whole "rotting your brain" nonsense, rather than "doing something constructive".
We need to overcome that negative (and false) reputation in order to make e-sports bigger.
That being said, the existence of hackers and cheaters doesn't make any tournament for any activity or sport look good, and so Blizzard needs to crack down on these guys big time.
man I'm a berkeley alumuna, and I'm shocked that iGware was not insta banned from the team. we might not field the best starcraft team but i sure know we aren't dumb. get rid of this guy, hacking or not.
On March 15 2011 07:26 assLand wrote: man I'm a berkeley alumuna, and I'm shocked that iGware was not insta banned from the team. we might not field the best starcraft team but i sure know we aren't dumb. get rid of this guy, hacking or not.
We did have one of the strongest teams in our division prior to igware. This affair happened at the end of the season.
On March 15 2011 06:16 dsousa wrote: I noticed iGware is #2 in NA on Sc2ranks.com.
How can we as fans ever trust non-LAN results? Observers aren't going to want to make an issue of it in games, they'll want to keep it quiet, because they won't know for sure either.
I put no stock in online results. They can map hack, or they can just have active coaching while they play.
And with money on the line they will.
This is going to be an issue sooner or later, ignore it at your own risk tourney admins!
iGware has fans?
He is referring to Starcraft II fans in general, not "Fans of iGware." Otherwise it would be "How can we as his fans trust his results if he has never lanned etc."
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
Because I know the people involved and confirmed it (after initially defending them so vociferously).
With regards to that replay Protech just posted - Sorcery livestreams all his games as it is. I spoke with DxT over Facebook, and he sent me the replay of that game from their perspective. I'll post it up when I get home and have taken a look at it.
e: hi Marko e2: and I agree that coogi looked extremely hackerish on BW for what it's worth.
The only replay worth having is from DxT's perspective as Sorcery drops from the game. I believe DxT was hacking while Sorcery was streaming.
What is the replay gonna prove from their perspective that's different from Protechs? Their in game chat? Maybe they use Skype or vent.
Last night Superninja and I played against these two twice last night and every game they would mass terran expo and feed protoss with blink stalker to start with mass gateways+upgrades into higher tech. Before they see any sign of banelings (and when they are pretty close to morphing in) Sorcery warps in like 6 sentries instead of stalkers which is their normal strategy.
And when the banelings are on the way to DxT (the idiot that he is) brings ALL sentries to his base to defend instead of splitting them up lol? And he basically plays chicken with the banelings as they are on their way to his base, he follows, then they go back to Sorcery's... he goes back to Sorcery's... all without vision.
That combined with the check for nydus and finding the two overlords at the time the nydus goes down is extremely extremely suspicious and undoubtedly hacking.
Sorcery may not be the one hacking in the games but DxT certainly is and relaying information to Sorcery somehow (skype/vent etc)
Also with the hack you can lock your screen position in the replay while looking @ opponents base so that proves nothing if they didn't directly look through fog
I missed this thread till today. Was going to watch the new episode of House but got entangled in this thread. I have to say: I hope these hacks are restricted to a selected few. I remember there was some hacker "shadowfrench" in Warcraft III and he spread his maphack freely in the community. It was a DISASTER, maphack ran freely and time after time Blizzard was behind. When Blizzard found a way to catch the hackers and permaban a couple thousand accounts, a new way of hacking was introduced.
For anyone who plays HoN amxzaku from dwi/ehh on his stream last night messaged sorcery on bnet(presumably know eachother from dota where he was also a well known hacker,) and sorcery confirmed he was hacking
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
Because I know the people involved and confirmed it (after initially defending them so vociferously).
With regards to that replay Protech just posted - Sorcery livestreams all his games as it is. I spoke with DxT over Facebook, and he sent me the replay of that game from their perspective. I'll post it up when I get home and have taken a look at it.
e: hi Marko e2: and I agree that coogi looked extremely hackerish on BW for what it's worth.
The only replay worth having is from DxT's perspective as Sorcery drops from the game. I believe DxT was hacking while Sorcery was streaming.
What is the replay gonna prove from their perspective that's different from Protechs? Their in game chat? Maybe they use Skype or vent.
Last night Superninja and I played against these two twice last night and every game they would mass terran expo and feed protoss with blink stalker to start with mass gateways+upgrades into higher tech. Before they see any sign of banelings (and when they are pretty close to morphing in) Sorcery warps in like 6 sentries instead of stalkers which is their normal strategy.
And when the banelings are on the way to DxT (the idiot that he is) brings ALL sentries to his base to defend instead of splitting them up lol? And he basically plays chicken with the banelings as they are on their way to his base, he follows, then they go back to Sorcery's... he goes back to Sorcery's... all without vision.
That combined with the check for nydus and finding the two overlords at the time the nydus goes down is extremely extremely suspicious and undoubtedly hacking.
Sorcery may not be the one hacking in the games but DxT certainly is and relaying information to Sorcery somehow (skype/vent etc)
Also with the hack you can lock your screen position in the replay while looking @ opponents base so that proves nothing if they didn't directly look through fog
I haven't even watched the replay yet since I'm at work, so I can't really address your points about the game itself, but to address this part: Sorcery's stream records his mic + the sound they get in game (at least it did when we set it up; I haven't actually been actively watching his stream or anything like that), so they'd be sort of retarded to be talking about it and broadcasting it that way.
Yes they could mute the mic and talk over the phone or via a different computer (though I don't think Sorcery has a separate computer, and I'm nearly certain about this because there are a lot of times it would've come in handy for sniping/tracking if people are searching), but that seems a lot of work. The reason the replay will be provided is that it supposedly has some chat from early game which corroborates the claim that they knew what strategy was going to be executed against them.
On March 15 2011 07:56 Caliber wrote: well said Azide
it would be interesting to see if both players would ever stream their games live instead of just 1, because that allows the other to maphack
overall, sad story that he wanted to continue his hacking career in sc2..... i guess some people never learn
I know nothing about hacking aside from what I've read in this thread and other hackers' threads , but I was under the impression that (many, some?) hacks used are third party programs, so they shouldn't actually show up if you choose to just stream starcraft (with the 'hack' on another monitor, for instance).
On March 15 2011 07:56 Caliber wrote: well said Azide
it would be interesting to see if both players would ever stream their games live instead of just 1, because that allows the other to maphack
overall, sad story that he wanted to continue his hacking career in sc2..... i guess some people never learn
I know nothing about hacking aside from what I've read in this thread and other hackers' threads , but I was under the impression that (many, some?) hacks used are third party programs, so they shouldn't actually show up if you choose to just stream starcraft (with the 'hack' on another monitor, for instance).
I believe that's possible as well.
Anyways, PinkPrincess... he could easily have changed the option to broadcast his microphone settings and turned them off. I watched his stream for a few brief minutes the odd time to see what he was playing and how many people were watching his stream etc and it is always just blasting awfully loud music and you never hear Sorcery's voice. Atleast I haven't. Have you ever heard him on the stream?
If that was indeed sorcery admitting to map hacking in a post...both the accounts should be ban, I really could care less if he claims to of not map hacked on his account...there is no 100% sure way to believe him because he's done it already.
While I typically hate these posts because they are many times wrong, if he was indeed hacking on igwares account and using the hacks to his advantage as well in team games (doesn't matter if you weren't on your account if you knew your teammate was)...both accounts should be ban permanently.
Note: I didn't watch the games I'm going off the info presented in the OP.
I haven't even watched the replay yet since I'm at work, so I can't really address your points about the game itself, but to address this part: Sorcery's stream records his mic + the sound they get in game (at least it did when we set it up; I haven't actually been actively watching his stream or anything like that), so they'd be sort of retarded to be talking about it and broadcasting it that way.
Yes they could mute the mic and talk over the phone or via a different computer (though I don't think Sorcery has a separate computer, and I'm nearly certain about this because there are a lot of times it would've come in handy for sniping/tracking if people are searching), but that seems a lot of work. The reason the replay will be provided is that it supposedly has some chat from early game which corroborates the claim that they knew what strategy was going to be executed against them.
lol seriously watch it and laugh as soon as the banelings direction changes so do the sentries as they are inbetween both bases it's like an immediate response. no vision.
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
lol So what David told this man is a complete and utter lie and it was Sorcery in all of the games. Don't believe a word either of them says
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
RandomRice, see what I mean when I said it's very difficult to believe anything David Zhu says? Same goes for Josh Price, but I don't see what he has to gain by lying that he helped David Zhu cheating in CSL.
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
It honestly doesn't matter that much, Cal got punished and it serves as a good warning to all teams to make sure they know who is playing for them. I was just trying to thank RandomRice and the rest of the innocent Cal team members who are having to deal with all of this, because I feel that they are one of the teams that have gone above and beyond just being a team that plays in the CSL, and rather are helping the CSL grow and become even greater.
You're right it doesn't matter anymore. Just further proof that you can't believe a word that comes out of their mouth even in person he has no guts + honor to tell the truth. How pathetic
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
It honestly doesn't matter that much, Cal got punished and it serves as a good warning to all teams to make sure they know who is playing for them. I was just trying to thank RandomRice and the rest of the innocent Cal team members who are having to deal with all of this, because I feel that they are one of the teams that have gone above and beyond just being a team that plays in the CSL, and rather are helping the CSL grow and become even greater.
It doesn't matter for CSL, but it does send a message to people not to trust anything David Zhu says even in person.
And you know, if you got an Ace match, and you let someone play for you, that`s officially cheating right there. And not only it`s cheating, its cowardly cheating, because he uses Sorcery to hack.
That right there, is why people arent taking Esports seriously. There`s nothing to stop those shit from doing it.
To be fair, the fact that the community blacklists and casts out the cheaters and hackers, no matter how revered they once were (like Savior, even), shows that it is something to be taken seriously. It's handled the same in any sport or activity.
I think the reason that e-sports isn't taken seriously is because it's *just video games*, and it therefore has that negative stigma attached to it. The whole "rotting your brain" nonsense, rather than "doing something constructive".
We need to overcome that negative (and false) reputation in order to make e-sports bigger.
That being said, the existence of hackers and cheaters doesn't make any tournament for any activity or sport look good, and so Blizzard needs to crack down on these guys big time.
SaviOr was a bonjwa. He dropped game on purpose. They dont have any skills. Lets not even do the comparative
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
i dunno about mher's in SC2, but what I think is more common is probably people that cheat from watching streams or getting information from someone outside of their game msging them shit while in stream. Watching a few tournaments and having it happen a few times to me makes me think this has happened more than we think...and I always hear a few streamers mentioning the idiots that do this.
I believe the quote "once a hacker always a hacker".
Even he is doing everything he can to prove he is clean now, as soon things died down, they might start again. As it's already proven for the other guy, who had a history hacking in other game.
I have a feeling this thread is surfacing the whole idea that anyone could be hacking. I got accused of hacking because I managed to snipe several of his obs (and tbh, they were mostly strokes of luck seeing them when they're obvious).
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
lol ofc david never hacked and he's so legit because he let sorcery play the key match hmmm
LoL @ You peter for continuing to play with this scum bag. You deserve a ban just as much as he does. Hence forth I will leave every game Sorcery and I get into together.
Blizzard should put a lifetime ban on them in all their future games aswell. maphacking in starcraft 2 gives such a sick advantage, if the average master started maphacking he could probably have a chance against the best in the world.
I know a dude who got lifetime banned for botting in aion online ( he got banned when he made a new account ) and that doesent really give you any advantage over other players it only makes you level faster.
If i were this guys i would have felt like a really small person maphacking while so many people know who you are.
On March 15 2011 17:56 khazgore wrote: Blizzard should put a lifetime ban on them in all their future games aswell. maphacking in starcraft 2 gives such a sick advantage, if the average master started maphacking he could probably have a chance against the best in the world.
I know a dude who got lifetime banned for botting in aion online ( he got banned when he made a new account ) and that doesent really give you any advantage over other players it only makes you level faster.
If i were this guys i would have felt like a really small person maphacking while so many people know who you are.
I doubt he really cares @ all. I hope blizzard reads these forums on TL.net, that would mean insta ban, but i think that's high wishing.
On March 15 2011 17:56 khazgore wrote: Blizzard should put a lifetime ban on them in all their future games aswell. maphacking in starcraft 2 gives such a sick advantage, if the average master started maphacking he could probably have a chance against the best in the world.
I know a dude who got lifetime banned for botting in aion online ( he got banned when he made a new account ) and that doesent really give you any advantage over other players it only makes you level faster.
If i were this guys i would have felt like a really small person maphacking while so many people know who you are.
Isn't this what happens? Your battle.net account gets banned and any games connected gets locked out as well
But I don't think it matters, I doubt he connected any other games to this account, since he only used it to hack
I can't understand why people get so freaked out about this.
It's not affecting tournaments or lans or big events since they're closely watched yet you bullhorn it like it was the crime of the century.
Btw, instead of crying hax and "mah points" on the ladder and forums, maybe all that whining should be directed at blizzard; You know, to encourage them to at least TRY to put a decent anti-cheat feature.
You'd think that such an enormous company with I forgot how many games could make an anti-cheat system at least as useful as some independent developers instead of relying on mass noob rule with their "push here to accuse someone of maphacking and send us a report that nobody will ever check considering the amount of other noobs doing the same thing a million times a day"...
People should also know the "hacker" definition of blizzard is VERY broad. For instance I got banned for 2 days for switching the thor model with the collector edition one (thx no check; Oh and it can also allow for model cheating btw like adding giant green circles so you can identify/see them coming from a mile away).
If that is the extent of their "hacking concerns" you can bet your ass maphackers are going to reign free...
On March 15 2011 22:32 C5Five wrote: I can't understand why people get so freaked out about this.
It's not affecting tournaments or lans or big events since they're closely watched yet you bullhorn it like it was the crime of the century.
Btw, instead of crying hax and "mah points" on the ladder and forums, maybe all that whining should be directed at blizzard; You know, to encourage them to at least TRY to put a decent anti-cheat feature.
You'd think that such an enormous company with I forgot how many games could make an anti-cheat system at least as useful as some independent developers instead of relying on mass noob rule with their "push here to accuse someone of maphacking and send us a report that nobody will ever check considering the amount of other noobs doing the same thing a million times a day"...
People should also know the "hacker" definition of blizzard is VERY broad. For instance I got banned for 2 days for switching the thor model with the collector edition one (thx no check; Oh and it can also allow for model cheating btw like adding giant green circles so you can identify/see them coming from a mile away).
If that is the extent of their "hacking concerns" you can bet your ass maphackers are going to reign free...
Well, maphacking is pretty much the biggest "crime" you can make in SC2, bar some rare instances like Savior throwing games for money. NASL is also mostly going to be over online, so people are legitimately concerned about how easy it would be for a player to cheat during that event.
You're right about the community needing to raise this issue with Blizzard though. I agree with you in that they don't really check any of the hack reports because there are just so many more cases of wrong accusations flooding their inbox and they just don't have enough staff go through all those replays. They're most likely relying exclusively on their warden (which doesn't seem to work too well detecting private hacks and also doesn't prevent hacks from working in the first place) and the occasional cases that get widely publicized in the sc2 community (like this case). Neither of Josh Price or David Zhu has been banned yet though so hopefully they will take care of that ASAP because if they are left alone, it would send a wrong message to the community.
On March 15 2011 22:32 C5Five wrote: I can't understand why people get so freaked out about this.
It's not affecting tournaments or lans or big events since they're closely watched yet you bullhorn it like it was the crime of the century.
Btw, instead of crying hax and "mah points" on the ladder and forums, maybe all that whining should be directed at blizzard; You know, to encourage them to at least TRY to put a decent anti-cheat feature.
You'd think that such an enormous company with I forgot how many games could make an anti-cheat system at least as useful as some independent developers instead of relying on mass noob rule with their "push here to accuse someone of maphacking and send us a report that nobody will ever check considering the amount of other noobs doing the same thing a million times a day"...
People should also know the "hacker" definition of blizzard is VERY broad. For instance I got banned for 2 days for switching the thor model with the collector edition one (thx no check; Oh and it can also allow for model cheating btw like adding giant green circles so you can identify/see them coming from a mile away).
If that is the extent of their "hacking concerns" you can bet your ass maphackers are going to reign free...
lol? Look at how many ONLINE tournaments there are compared to LAN's with big name players. The NASL even has ONLINE qualifiers.
Josh Price played in a LAN but from home ONLINE (since it was allowed :S)
It has a direct effect on everybody who plays in online tournaments and ladder. It's not just about "mah points"
And wow, Peter -- is it true you're still playing with him? I thought you said you removed him from friends. If so, so very sad.
Checked the replay. He goes Double Racks at his Expo and magically knows where I am... So after some additional investigation.
I just happened to pick a few random games out of his long 2vs2 win streak from a day ago.
Seems like everyone related to this Sorcery person has access to hacks. GG ladder.
While we know that Sorcery and iGware are hackers, the people who they played with are not necessarily hackers and may have not been aware that their allies hacked. Regardless, make sure you can provide an in-game breakdown of their allies explicitly hacking and cheating if you're going to accuse their teammates of doing the same. Hacking is, after all, a serious offense. (Personally, I don't always pay attention to what my ally is doing all the time, and if I'm playing with a random ally, we don't always communicate. If I got paired up with a hacker, then I may very well have no idea!)
Mindset is a pretty respected player you should have proof before you start slandering him. And in a game where you just accused him of hacking do you think hed blatantly go to your spawn? Just doesnt make sense to me
On March 16 2011 03:22 Dubz wrote: Mindset is a pretty respected player you should have proof before you start slandering him. And in a game where you just accused him of hacking do you think hed blatantly go to your spawn? Just doesnt make sense to me
The guy claims to have never known about Sorcery maphacking. Yet he has 196+35 games played with him on 2vs2, dozens more on 3vs3 even up until yesterday.
Sounds pretty fishy to me. But if there's more people with the PinkPrincess syndrome in this post willing to defend him, more power to them I guess.
SecretA5DC you are pathetic =*( I am not defending Sorcery in any way shape or form. He did admit to hacking but gave his friends and allies a sincere apology in which I accepted. He is now streaming all of his games to try and clear his name and gain back the respect he once had. Im sure his reputation is tarnished for good, however please do not try and bring down everyone he allied accusing them of having hack. I've been a long time brood war player under sE)suzuki and never once hacked in my 12 year carrer as a starcraft player. Obviously it ruins the game and is frowned upon by many. SecretA5DC I was streaming our games on justin.tv which auto records all your streaming sessions. So if you feel the need to rewatch our games from my own personal perspective, visit www.justin.tv/mindsettv. Manner up kid.
I can confirm that Mindset is a hacker, I allied him thousands of times in broodwar, and I'm pretty sure he hacked every game, because one time I saw him talking to fleem in Ladder 2x2, who is a known hacker. Also we are about 500-150 / 165-15 on 2 different accounts, and obviously we couldn't have done that without Mindset hacking.
Mindset is actually good man, he is not a hacker, he was accomplished 1v1 and 2v2 in broodwar, and he plays the game for fun, its not fun being a hacker, we don't care about our stats, playing our best and beating good teams is a good feeling, which gets spoiled by hacking.
So, in closing... SecretADC you are a stupid newbie, don't call my friend and ally a hacker. Oh yea btw he actually streamed the game where he raped you LOL, maybe next time before you cry hack when you lose you should actually do a little research and check if he has a stream before you go around looking like a fool.
I just watched a replay of iGware vs. myself in a 2v2 and it was the most blatant display of hacking you could ever have, all before the time it took my first pylon to finish. I wish I posted that rep when people were still debating whether iGware was a hacker. He completely dodged my first scouting probe when he didn't even know which side I was on.
On March 16 2011 03:44 SecretA5DC wrote: The guy claims to have never known about Sorcery maphacking. Yet he has 196+35 games played with him on 2vs2, dozens more on 3vs3 even up until yesterday.
Sounds pretty fishy to me. But if there's more people with the PinkPrincess syndrome in this post willing to defend him, more power to them I guess.
And you have McCarthy syndrome, that's almost as bad.
On March 16 2011 05:27 namedplayer wrote: whatwillhappen if players in TSLhacks?
Good question. We may never know. How will we know people won't hack in NASL? With $100,000 on the line, I wouldn't doubt. I know they have online matches as well.
On March 16 2011 05:27 namedplayer wrote: whatwillhappen if players in TSLhacks?
Probably they'd be banned from all future teamliquid events. I remember when people were caught cheating in the qualification ladder for previous TSLs they were banned from TSL3 + all TL events for a year or so. I suspect it'd be only more serious if it happened in the real event. Kinda offtopic though...
On March 16 2011 05:27 namedplayer wrote: whatwillhappen if players in TSLhacks?
TL staff will catch and destroy them. People were caught for even the smallest thing in the TSL2 prelims and that was 1000x more games to look through. Every game in the TSL3 will be scrutinized over and over. No one would be stupid enough to hack. In addition, the games will not be streamed live, so more simple stream cheating or friend cheating also will not be possible. TSL3 will not have any abuse of any kind, rest assured.
If caught cheating in TSL it will be auto-disqualification. The games are not being streamed live (as stated on SOTG) to prevent stream cheating and I can only assume that with such a MASSIVE prize pool they can spare some change for good replay-analysis referees. As for players other than the competitors playing on the accounts in the tournament, I ask one question.
Who the hell would MC, Jinro, Nestea etc. pick to play in their place?
Although I think it is good that iGware/Sorcery have been exposed as hackers, I feel like this thread should be closed. It served its purpose and now is just a place for flaming, personal attacks, and claims of other hackers. The goal of this thread was to examine whether or not iGware/Sorcery were hackers. Proof (albeit some circumstantial) and a confession from both players (conclusive) was given. There is nothing more to be done now that they are proven hackers and Blizz knows about it.
I learned a lot from this as a UCBerkeley CSL coordinator, but as I keep roaming TL.net, this thread just seems to stay alive and I check it. It has devolved into worthless discussion. Mod, I think you should close this thread and advise those who wish to accuse other players of hacking to make their own thread with solid proof or go to the hacker database.
On March 16 2011 04:44 drewbie.root wrote: I can confirm that Mindset is a hacker, I allied him thousands of times in broodwar, and I'm pretty sure he hacked every game, because one time I saw him talking to fleem in Ladder 2x2, who is a known hacker. Also we are about 500-150 / 165-15 on 2 different accounts, and obviously we couldn't have done that without Mindset hacking.
Mindset is actually good man, he is not a hacker, he was accomplished 1v1 and 2v2 in broodwar, and he plays the game for fun, its not fun being a hacker, we don't care about our stats, playing our best and beating good teams is a good feeling, which gets spoiled by hacking.
So, in closing... SecretADC you are a stupid newbie, don't call my friend and ally a hacker. Oh yea btw he actually streamed the game where he raped you LOL, maybe next time before you cry hack when you lose you should actually do a little research and check if he has a stream before you go around looking like a fool.
Drewbie gets +5/+5, flying, trample, and protection from all creatures until the end of the game. Tap Drewbie: Destroy target noob. He can't be regenerated.
On March 16 2011 06:23 EnderPR wrote: Although I think it is good that iGware/Sorcery have been exposed as hackers, I feel like this thread should be closed. It served its purpose and now is just a place for flaming, personal attacks, and claims of other hackers. The goal of this thread was to examine whether or not iGware/Sorcery were hackers. Proof (albeit some circumstantial) and a confession from both players (conclusive) was given. There is nothing more to be done now that they are proven hackers and Blizz knows about it.
I learned a lot from this as a UCBerkeley CSL coordinator, but as I keep roaming TL.net, this thread just seems to stay alive and I check it. It has devolved into worthless discussion. Mod, I think you should close this thread and advise those who wish to accuse other players of hacking to make their own thread with solid proof or go to the hacker database.
Drewbie obviously hacks as well, and is covering up for his hacker buddy. Don't trust anything they say. It's the only reason he's managed to do so well.
On March 16 2011 06:23 EnderPR wrote: Although I think it is good that iGware/Sorcery have been exposed as hackers, I feel like this thread should be closed. It served its purpose and now is just a place for flaming, personal attacks, and claims of other hackers. The goal of this thread was to examine whether or not iGware/Sorcery were hackers. Proof (albeit some circumstantial) and a confession from both players (conclusive) was given. There is nothing more to be done now that they are proven hackers and Blizz knows about it.
I learned a lot from this as a UCBerkeley CSL coordinator, but as I keep roaming TL.net, this thread just seems to stay alive and I check it. It has devolved into worthless discussion. Mod, I think you should close this thread and advise those who wish to accuse other players of hacking to make their own thread with solid proof or go to the hacker database.
I don't think this thread should be closed until Blizzard actually bans those two. If this thread is forced to sink, then people other that the ones who were directly involved or closely followed this situation will slowly forget or not know this has happened at all.
What does need to happen here, is keeping the thread strictly on David Zhu/Josh Price and prevent people from turning this into "THIS GUYS HACKS TOO" thread. I don't think that's a difficult task.
On March 16 2011 06:23 EnderPR wrote: Although I think it is good that iGware/Sorcery have been exposed as hackers, I feel like this thread should be closed. It served its purpose and now is just a place for flaming, personal attacks, and claims of other hackers. The goal of this thread was to examine whether or not iGware/Sorcery were hackers. Proof (albeit some circumstantial) and a confession from both players (conclusive) was given. There is nothing more to be done now that they are proven hackers and Blizz knows about it.
I learned a lot from this as a UCBerkeley CSL coordinator, but as I keep roaming TL.net, this thread just seems to stay alive and I check it. It has devolved into worthless discussion. Mod, I think you should close this thread and advise those who wish to accuse other players of hacking to make their own thread with solid proof or go to the hacker database.
I don't think this thread should be closed until Blizzard actually bans those two. If this thread is forced to sink, then people other that the ones who were directly involved or closely followed this situation will slowly forget or not know this has happened at all.
What does need to happen here, is keeping the thread strictly on David Zhu/Josh Price and prevent people from turning this into "THIS GUYS HACKS TOO" thread. I don't think that's a difficult task.
If I am not mistaken, Blizz issues mass bans rather than one at at time. If that is true, there is no telling how long it is until the next set of bans. It is exactly what you mentioned, that the discussion has derailed that is why I think the thread has outlived its usefulness.
Also ProTech, although I appreciate your finding of these hackers especially since they made our event worse, being condescending does not help your cause.
On March 16 2011 06:23 EnderPR wrote: Although I think it is good that iGware/Sorcery have been exposed as hackers, I feel like this thread should be closed. It served its purpose and now is just a place for flaming, personal attacks, and claims of other hackers. The goal of this thread was to examine whether or not iGware/Sorcery were hackers. Proof (albeit some circumstantial) and a confession from both players (conclusive) was given. There is nothing more to be done now that they are proven hackers and Blizz knows about it.
I learned a lot from this as a UCBerkeley CSL coordinator, but as I keep roaming TL.net, this thread just seems to stay alive and I check it. It has devolved into worthless discussion. Mod, I think you should close this thread and advise those who wish to accuse other players of hacking to make their own thread with solid proof or go to the hacker database.
I don't think this thread should be closed until Blizzard actually bans those two. If this thread is forced to sink, then people other that the ones who were directly involved or closely followed this situation will slowly forget or not know this has happened at all.
What does need to happen here, is keeping the thread strictly on David Zhu/Josh Price and prevent people from turning this into "THIS GUYS HACKS TOO" thread. I don't think that's a difficult task.
If I am not mistaken, Blizz issues mass bans rather than one at at time. If that is true, there is no telling how long it is until the next set of bans. It is exactly what you mentioned, that the discussion has derailed that is why I think the thread has outlived its usefulness.
Also ProTech, although I appreciate your finding of these hackers especially since they made our event worse, being condescending does not help your cause.
They indeed ban in waves, which usually have intervals of several weeks. It may be a while till we see these hackers banned (if they were reported)
On March 16 2011 03:14 SecretA5DC wrote: Found this to be a little amusing.
Checked the replay. He goes Double Racks at his Expo and magically knows where I am... So after some additional investigation.
I just happened to pick a few random games out of his long 2vs2 win streak from a day ago.
Seems like everyone related to this Sorcery person has access to hacks. GG ladder.
not nearly proof enough and as drewbie pointed out, you're probably just bitter for losing, since the guy streams a lot and even streamed a game where he beat you see, this is why you can never believe anyone calling others hackers for the first time, you never know if it's genuine or just a hate move
On March 16 2011 04:44 drewbie.root wrote: I can confirm that Mindset is a hacker, I allied him thousands of times in broodwar, and I'm pretty sure he hacked every game, because one time I saw him talking to fleem in Ladder 2x2, who is a known hacker. Also we are about 500-150 / 165-15 on 2 different accounts, and obviously we couldn't have done that without Mindset hacking.
Mindset is actually good man, he is not a hacker, he was accomplished 1v1 and 2v2 in broodwar, and he plays the game for fun, its not fun being a hacker, we don't care about our stats, playing our best and beating good teams is a good feeling, which gets spoiled by hacking.
So, in closing... SecretADC you are a stupid newbie, don't call my friend and ally a hacker. Oh yea btw he actually streamed the game where he raped you LOL, maybe next time before you cry hack when you lose you should actually do a little research and check if he has a stream before you go around looking like a fool.
Considering I won the game where I was chatting to Mindset? lulz.
On March 16 2011 03:14 SecretA5DC wrote: Found this to be a little amusing.
Checked the replay. He goes Double Racks at his Expo and magically knows where I am... So after some additional investigation.
I just happened to pick a few random games out of his long 2vs2 win streak from a day ago.
Seems like everyone related to this Sorcery person has access to hacks. GG ladder.
not nearly proof enough and as drewbie pointed out, you're probably just bitter for losing, since the guy streams a lot and even streamed a game where he beat you see, this is why you can never believe anyone calling others hackers for the first time, you never know if it's genuine or just a hate move
How am I bitter if I won once and lost once? If I was upset over one loss in this game I would be making dozens of post about qq'ing. The guy teams with a hacker and "claims" he didn't know.
I checked the replays on both games, Mindset put up 2 racks at his natural and tried to cheese with a marine rush. Then after that failed, he went for reapers in both games.
i quickly put on the second replay? the one with tehredbandit hackprotech vs iGware sorcery.
""For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out.""
If you watch the replay you can see that he sees all the lings coming when they run by sorcerys overlord. but i guess you see what you wanna see
I stopped watching there as i figured it would continue to be a waste of time.
No, but im saying there needs to be some better evidence than that.. lol
also in the 1v1 they were talkin in the begining of same builds workinga as if they just played each other the game before. so maybe he was just preparing for the same thing just done to him..
and at 13:35 i def dont see him setting up for an attack, but rather setting up a nice defense fill bunkers making tanks....
im no defending or saying anything.. w/e he admits it (but not on his account.. so ok?suree). but nothing really far fetched i see here yeah he doesnt scout.. but who knows really what people are thinking and what they think their opponent is thinking.. just saying think outside the box
On March 15 2011 05:46 bLuR wrote: How do we know those people posting confessions are real..?
I can verify that the statements are legit. I took the time this weekend to meet with David Zhu to help clarify the issue for me. Both confessions are genuine.
Also, I want to put a word in for David Zhu. He was legitimately interested in helped Cal succeed in the CSL, but was unaware that alumni were prohibited from competing. All matches played under igware for the CSL were played by David(without hacks) with the exception of 1 (ace match vs Utah was apparently played by Sorcery -_-). However that is irrelevant as the matches overturned were under the basis that they were not registered Cal students(at the time ofthe season).
I cannot speak for Sorcery but based on my meeting with David, I can say that I believe him when he says that he has never hacked. He is a good, solid player(although not #1 in US quality, lol) who has a questionable choice of friends (ie Sorcery) who he allowed to get away with hacking/cheating on his igware account
Thanks for posting this. I really appreciated the effort that Cal put into the CSL matches, and the LAN, and I hate to see their name get smeared by unfortunate circumstances like this. It is a shame that you guys are out of the playoffs (though I can't admit to being a little happy that this allowed Davis to get in), but I really had a good time at the LAN, and look forward to next year's CSL. If we do end up doing any LANs down here in the cowtown, you guys will be the first to hear about it!
By the way, I just spoke to Sorcery, and he said that he played all the CSL games for David Zhu, not just that one ace match against Utah.
I assume if one had the replays handy, it would be relatively easy to compare hotkeys and the such. I don't know where the CSL replays are, however.
Here's a very convincing set of 2 replays I had the other day with this guy (not protech), it's weird because I thought he was trolling me in game saying I was hacking but it turns out after the games he was directly watching my base and armies, without any scouting at all, perfectly.
On March 16 2011 07:54 dankbrownies wrote: i quickly put on the second replay? the one with tehredbandit hackprotech vs iGware sorcery.
""For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out.""
If you watch the replay you can see that he sees all the lings coming when they run by sorcerys overlord. but i guess you see what you wanna see
I stopped watching there as i figured it would continue to be a waste of time.
No shit sherlock. He does know that the lings are coming in waves, but it's very standard that when you're rushing like to hide some ling if he tries to come into the base. He's not even looking @ his allies base to know whether or not the lings are in there. Instead he looks into the FoW to see the lings and where they are.
If you need a maphack to know that if a zerg attacks you in the first minutes it's gonna be zerglings I'm wondering how you even managed to install the damn game, let alone find and install a maphack...
On March 16 2011 07:54 dankbrownies wrote: i quickly put on the second replay? the one with tehredbandit hackprotech vs iGware sorcery.
""For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out.""
If you watch the replay you can see that he sees all the lings coming when they run by sorcerys overlord. but i guess you see what you wanna see
I stopped watching there as i figured it would continue to be a waste of time.
No shit sherlock. He does know that the lings are coming in waves, but it's very standard that when you're rushing like to hide some ling if he tries to come into the base. He's not even looking @ his allies base to know whether or not the lings are in there. Instead he looks into the FoW to see the lings and where they are.
ok except the TWO zerglings in the fog of war outside of his base. there are only TWO. hes see ths other set streaming down under sorcerys overlord. why would he back off from only 2 lings outside his base
seems to me he sees them streaming down under the ovie, hesitates sees they did infact go into sorcerys base and knows its safe. those two lings in the FOW didnt make him run back in to his base
On March 16 2011 07:54 dankbrownies wrote: i quickly put on the second replay? the one with tehredbandit hackprotech vs iGware sorcery.
""For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out.""
If you watch the replay you can see that he sees all the lings coming when they run by sorcerys overlord. but i guess you see what you wanna see
I stopped watching there as i figured it would continue to be a waste of time.
No shit sherlock. He does know that the lings are coming in waves, but it's very standard that when you're rushing like to hide some ling if he tries to come into the base. He's not even looking @ his allies base to know whether or not the lings are in there. Instead he looks into the FoW to see the lings and where they are.
ok except the TWO zerglings in the fog of war outside of his base. there are only TWO. hes see ths other set streaming down under sorcerys overlord. why would he back off from only 2 lings outside his base
seems to me he sees them streaming down under the ovie, hesitates sees they did infact go into sorcerys base and knows its safe. those two lings in the FOW didnt make him run back in to his base
Peoples with self respect shouldn't play ally with hacker. I won't be surprised if in the next month-two they will protect him and say that this good man has changed.
On March 16 2011 07:54 dankbrownies wrote: i quickly put on the second replay? the one with tehredbandit hackprotech vs iGware sorcery.
""For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out.""
If you watch the replay you can see that he sees all the lings coming when they run by sorcerys overlord. but i guess you see what you wanna see
I stopped watching there as i figured it would continue to be a waste of time.
No shit sherlock. He does know that the lings are coming in waves, but it's very standard that when you're rushing like to hide some ling if he tries to come into the base. He's not even looking @ his allies base to know whether or not the lings are in there. Instead he looks into the FoW to see the lings and where they are.
ok except the TWO zerglings in the fog of war outside of his base. there are only TWO. hes see ths other set streaming down under sorcerys overlord. why would he back off from only 2 lings outside his base
seems to me he sees them streaming down under the ovie, hesitates sees they did infact go into sorcerys base and knows its safe. those two lings in the FOW didnt make him run back in to his base
Others (including me) have tried reasonable discourse with ProTech, it's not worth it. Apparently most people in this thread cannot differentiate upholding standards of evidence from "defending the hacker". To cut a long story short, these guys (ProTech and Sorcery) know each other personally. The "evidence" in the replays is mostly very weak, as many have noted already, but obviously ProTech's allegations are motivated by behind the scenes knowledge and animosity. The players involved have now admitted to hacking, so there's not much more to say. At this point it's just an amusing expose into the crazy world of hacking in 2v2 (the funniest part was learning that the hackers are shunned from Protech's "clan hack" due to their suspected hacking).
On March 16 2011 07:54 dankbrownies wrote: i quickly put on the second replay? the one with tehredbandit hackprotech vs iGware sorcery.
""For starters @ 5:04 watch how igware starts to move out and looks into the fog of war, knowing that there are lings that would obliterate his army if he continues to move out.""
If you watch the replay you can see that he sees all the lings coming when they run by sorcerys overlord. but i guess you see what you wanna see
I stopped watching there as i figured it would continue to be a waste of time.
No shit sherlock. He does know that the lings are coming in waves, but it's very standard that when you're rushing like to hide some ling if he tries to come into the base. He's not even looking @ his allies base to know whether or not the lings are in there. Instead he looks into the FoW to see the lings and where they are.
ok except the TWO zerglings in the fog of war outside of his base. there are only TWO. hes see ths other set streaming down under sorcerys overlord. why would he back off from only 2 lings outside his base
seems to me he sees them streaming down under the ovie, hesitates sees they did infact go into sorcerys base and knows its safe. those two lings in the FOW didnt make him run back in to his base
Others (including me) have tried reasonable discourse with ProTech, it's not worth it. Apparently most people in this thread cannot differentiate upholding standards of evidence from "defending the hacker". To cut a long story short, these guys (ProTech and Sorcery) know each other personally. The "evidence" in the replays is mostly very weak, as many have noted already, but obviously ProTech's allegations are motivated by behind the scenes knowledge and animosity. The players involved have now admitted to hacking, so there's not much more to say. At this point it's just an amusing expose into the crazy world of hacking in 2v2 (the funniest part was learning that the hackers are shunned from Protech's "clan hack" due to their suspected hacking).
unfortunately there are probably going to be some not so amusing expose into the world of hacking in 1v1 sometime soon.
Its pretty pathetic that people would hack in a video game where they don't really stand to gain anything but a virtual bj of their e-penis, which sadly will always overshadow the real thing.
I get pro athletes; there's pressure, contracts, fame, tons of money at stake. I don't endorse cheating in pro sports but at least there's some rationale behind it that suggests while these people are immoral they are not retarded. The same can't be said for computer game hackers. I would pity these guys but the shit they do is too damn annoying to deserve pity.
I feel there should be a better discipline system... like to force hackers play against other players at their ladder ranking (i.e. match up iGware/sorcery against Select) .. in a public streamed game... And have people tune in to watch the carnage as they get absolutely crushed by legit gamers. I would pay good money to see this (as long as none of it goes to the hacker).
On March 16 2011 04:44 drewbie.root wrote: I can confirm that Mindset is a hacker, I allied him thousands of times in broodwar, and I'm pretty sure he hacked every game, because one time I saw him talking to fleem in Ladder 2x2, who is a known hacker. Also we are about 500-150 / 165-15 on 2 different accounts, and obviously we couldn't have done that without Mindset hacking.
Mindset is actually good man, he is not a hacker, he was accomplished 1v1 and 2v2 in broodwar, and he plays the game for fun, its not fun being a hacker, we don't care about our stats, playing our best and beating good teams is a good feeling, which gets spoiled by hacking.
So, in closing... SecretADC you are a stupid newbie, don't call my friend and ally a hacker. Oh yea btw he actually streamed the game where he raped you LOL, maybe next time before you cry hack when you lose you should actually do a little research and check if he has a stream before you go around looking like a fool.
Drewbie gets +5/+5, flying, trample, and protection from all creatures until the end of the game. Tap Drewbie: Destroy target noob. He can't be regenerated.
This is perhaps the best thing I read in the entire thread.
Magic The Gathering FTW
As towards the witchhunt that this thread has crumbled into...I am all for burning hackers at the stake(or more realistically just swinging the banhammer), but provide evidence not accusations. And at the poster flaming with drewbie...good luck with that. Let me know how it works out for you.
Lol my 3's team played Sorcery and called him a map hacker in passing, somewhat just as trash talk but mainly because his team pulled some uncanny moves we had considered luck at the time. Ironic, hope he gets banned on all his accounts!
What people need to understand about cheaters is this:
These particular cheaters are not garbage players - execution still needs to be good even considering they have extra information from their hacks. An aptitude for gameplay lends itself to the easy assumption that the accused (and admitted) hackers are not stupid.
A smart (non-stupid, see above) player will VERY rarely be caught cheating with evidence that is 100% undeniable proof. So catching cheaters is extremely difficult and time consuming. Analyzing countless numbers of replays is necessary as there is almost never 100% proof that a player is hacking. Obviously these players are conscious of the fact that their replays will be watched and take measures to prevent themselves from being discovered as hackers.
So even after Sorcery admits to hacking - people drone on and on about how the replays don't PROVE the players are hacking - it often comes from a place of ignorance.
Consider the US Justice System's mantra: innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
On March 18 2011 09:19 Dommk wrote: What is the point of his thread now that he has openly admitted he map hacks?
So that in the event blizzard ( by the off chance ) actually looks at these forums, they will see that he openly admitted to cheating. Also ( by the off chance ) that they do look @ this thread, they will in fact ban his MAIN account that he claims " pure of hacking. "
I think it's a good idea to keep this thread wide open until the wave of bans come.
You know, I did cheat a little in CS 1.6 wayyyy back in the days and I wasn't near mediocre. Fact is we mainly cheated with friends because it was boring to always end up 1st...
Not saying it's justifiable but I can understand where some people are coming from with this; If you're good enough to beat a reasonably sizeable chunk of opponents and aren't a stats monkey trying to be the latest hot-shit mr 1848540000 points, I mean... why not ?
You all need to get off your high horses; Everyone has been cheated out at some point and you'd better focus more on it happening in real life than in sc2.
All this bullshit whining about how "it's so horrible because it docked my favorite e-star 3 placements on a cyber league in a cyber game not even 1% of the people playing the game gives a flying fuck about" is giving me a fucking headache.
People even before starcraft wanted to make e-sports. They failed. Why ? Because they had the same batshit mentality that "only what we say is acceptable and we'll ban/shun everyone else". If you want to show the world who's boss drag your ass off your chair, don't post on forums like every 12 years old keyboard warrior; I'm even surprised none of you swore to hunt and kill him at this point...
Maybe someone will care about actually financing e-sports the day most of you stop acting like insane religious integrists...
On March 18 2011 09:36 C5Five wrote: You know, I did cheat a little in CS 1.6 wayyyy back in the days and I wasn't near mediocre. Fact is we mainly cheated with friends because it was boring to always end up 1st...
Not saying it's justifiable but I can understand where some people are coming from with this; If you're good enough to beat a reasonably sizeable chunk of opponents and aren't a stats monkey trying to be the latest hot-shit mr 1848540000 points, I mean... why not ?
You all need to get off your high horses; Everyone has been cheated out at some point and you'd better focus more on it happening in real life than in sc2.
All this bullshit whining about how "it's so horrible because it docked my favorite e-star 3 placements on a cyber league in a cyber game not even 0.00001% of the world gives a flying fuck about" is giving me a fucking headache.
People even before starcraft wanted to make e-sports. They failed. Why ? Because they had the same batshit mentality that "only what we say is acceptable and we'll ban/shun everyone else". If you want to show the world who's boss drag your ass off your chair, don't post on forums like every 12 years old keyboard warrior; I'm even surprised none of you swore to hunt and kill him at this point...
Single player cheating is fine. Cheating against a friend in a non-competitive situation and laughing about it together is fine. Everything else is off limits.
Of course cheating happens in real life. And guess what, it makes you a social pariah. Same thing is happening here - I don't get what your problem is.
On March 18 2011 09:36 C5Five wrote: You know, I did cheat a little in CS 1.6 wayyyy back in the days and I wasn't near mediocre. Fact is we mainly cheated with friends because it was boring to always end up 1st...
Not saying it's justifiable but I can understand where some people are coming from with this; If you're good enough to beat a reasonably sizeable chunk of opponents and aren't a stats monkey trying to be the latest hot-shit mr 1848540000 points, I mean... why not ?
You all need to get off your high horses; Everyone has been cheated out at some point and you'd better focus more on it happening in real life than in sc2.
All this bullshit whining about how "it's so horrible because it docked my favorite e-star 3 placements on a cyber league in a cyber game not even 1% of the people playing the game gives a flying fuck about" is giving me a fucking headache.
People even before starcraft wanted to make e-sports. They failed. Why ? Because they had the same batshit mentality that "only what we say is acceptable and we'll ban/shun everyone else". If you want to show the world who's boss drag your ass off your chair, don't post on forums like every 12 years old keyboard warrior; I'm even surprised none of you swore to hunt and kill him at this point...
Maybe someone will care about actually financing e-sports the day most of you stop acting like insane religious integrists...
This was possibly the most confusing post I've ever read on the TL forums.
On March 18 2011 09:19 Dommk wrote: What is the point of his thread now that he has openly admitted he map hacks?
So that in the event blizzard ( by the off chance ) actually looks at these forums, they will see that he openly admitted to cheating. Also ( by the off chance ) that they do look @ this thread, they will in fact ban his MAIN account that he claims " pure of hacking. "
I think it's a good idea to keep this thread wide open until the wave of bans come.
If that is what you are concerned about then make sure you report him using Blizz system, email them etc. and include the link to this thread/his confession. This thread is truly absolute trash now. It did what its suppose to do and has become a place for losers to report hackers with no proof and getting away with it because emotions are hot.
Not only that, but the fact that people just want to discuss cheating/hacking on TL continuously is frankly sad and disappointing. Perhaps insuring that iGware/Sorcery are banned is part of your personal agenda at all cost ProTech, but the rest of us would like to see threads that haven't transformed into utter trash.
Hacker was accused, admitted, thread's goal is accomplished. Blizz has been notified and undoubtedly seen this forum anyway. This thread should be closed.
On March 18 2011 09:16 SilverBullet wrote: So even after Sorcery admits to hacking - people drone on and on about how the replays don't PROVE the players are hacking - it often comes from a place of ignorance.
Not just ignorance though, WILLFUL ignorance.
Like I spelled out a few times earlier in the thread. Sorcery isn't even good at hiding his cheating. In fact, as far as I can tell, he doesn't even try.
It's blatant in all 3 replays that Pro posted, and I'm having a hard time imagining how anyone could watch the replays and come back with "inconclusive" unless they're trying to make themselves believe that cheating either isn't possible, or isn't as common as they fear it may be.
Any player trying to claim that the replays don't show blatant map-hacking in action is fooling themselves, and worse, they're enabling the cheaters by making them feel like they can't get caught.
On March 18 2011 09:19 Dommk wrote: What is the point of his thread now that he has openly admitted he map hacks?
So that in the event blizzard ( by the off chance ) actually looks at these forums, they will see that he openly admitted to cheating. Also ( by the off chance ) that they do look @ this thread, they will in fact ban his MAIN account that he claims " pure of hacking. "
I think it's a good idea to keep this thread wide open until the wave of bans come.
If that is what you are concerned about then make sure you report him using Blizz system, email them etc. and include the link to this thread/his confession. This thread is truly absolute trash now. It did what its suppose to do and has become a place for losers to report hackers with no proof and getting away with it because emotions are hot.
Not only that, but the fact that people just want to discuss cheating/hacking on TL continuously is frankly sad and disappointing. Perhaps insuring that iGware/Sorcery are banned is part of your personal agenda at all cost ProTech, but the rest of us would like to see threads that haven't transformed into utter trash.
Hacker was accused, admitted, thread's goal is accomplished. Blizz has been notified and undoubtedly seen this forum anyway. This thread should be closed.
Blizzard banning hackers outside of their normal ban waves presumably due to big public outcries over confirmed hacks has happened in the past though. I'm hoping that's what will happen.
I believe needless accusations of players other than iGware/Sorcery have stopped for a while now and something like that can easily be put under control with proper moderation anyway.
I find the high level 2v2 community unbelievable - people accusing mindset of hacking? Protech upset about everyone who beats him? and people thinking they know better than professional players such as Drewbie?
This 35 page thread can be summed up amply as this: the MAD, the BAD, and the ugly. Wtf how/why this thread is still open I know not- there is literally nothing more to say since sorcery confessed.
On March 18 2011 09:36 C5Five wrote: You know, I did cheat a little in CS 1.6 wayyyy back in the days and I wasn't near mediocre. Fact is we mainly cheated with friends because it was boring to always end up 1st...
Not saying it's justifiable but I can understand where some people are coming from with this; If you're good enough to beat a reasonably sizeable chunk of opponents and aren't a stats monkey trying to be the latest hot-shit mr 1848540000 points, I mean... why not ?
You all need to get off your high horses; Everyone has been cheated out at some point and you'd better focus more on it happening in real life than in sc2.
All this bullshit whining about how "it's so horrible because it docked my favorite e-star 3 placements on a cyber league in a cyber game not even 1% of the people playing the game gives a flying fuck about" is giving me a fucking headache.
People even before starcraft wanted to make e-sports. They failed. Why ? Because they had the same batshit mentality that "only what we say is acceptable and we'll ban/shun everyone else". If you want to show the world who's boss drag your ass off your chair, don't post on forums like every 12 years old keyboard warrior; I'm even surprised none of you swore to hunt and kill him at this point...
Maybe someone will care about actually financing e-sports the day most of you stop acting like insane religious integrists...
Wow super dumb post there man good job,It's really stupid fucking logic to think that it's okay to hack as long as you're not doing it to be "the latest hot-shit mr 1848540000 points".. In fact it's stupid logic to think it's okay to hack for ANY reason.
It is NEVER acceptable to cheat in any competitive game/sport, real life or video and if we let people like this guy get away with it then there's nothing to stop others from doing it which is why we need threads like this to come up when there's proof of hacking.
Of course cheating happens in real life. And guess what, it makes you a social pariah.
It gets you elected.
And guess what; the same idiots who cry against cheating will then praise and trust said "pariah" with all their hearts.
It's relative. Always.
Politics, titter-titter. Crooks and liars, titter-titter. Sheeple, titter-titter.
'Ho ho politicians ho ho ho I'm as funny as Dane Cook' has absolutely no bearing on the correctness of hacking in SC2. Just because you hacked doesn't mean everyone else has. When you say everyone does it in an attempt to mollify opinion toward it and yourself, speak only for yourself. Hacking to get yourself an edge is something I'm fairly sure most people on here have in fact *not* done, much less on ladder, where selection for legitimate tournaments occurs. Just because you found it fitting to waste the time of other people playing CS by hacking does not mean the rest of us feel the same.
'Focus on RL Cheating' is an amusing way to distract it, but there's not a goddamn person on this board that focuses 100% on RL. We find amusing pastimes in games like this, and it bothers us when people don't treat that pastime with the same respect. Should we all focus on real life cheating 100%? This is equivalent to asking 'should recreation exist?' If you don't think video games, board games, or anything else that prevents us from reaching our optimum productive capabilities should exist, only then can you say that we shouldn't focus on hacking. Because if you refuse to decry all of these, you refuse to decry the concept of recreation and thus refuse to grant yourself standing to prevent us from preserving the integrity of our sport.
well, i'm glad a hacker was caught and exposed publicly like this, it will discourage other players from hacking. also everyone add plus one to your ladder ranking cuz we know at least one account is illegit .
On March 18 2011 10:02 RiceRiceRice wrote: I find the high level 2v2 community unbelievable - people accusing mindset of hacking? Protech upset about everyone who beats him? and people thinking they know better than professional players such as Drewbie?
This 35 page thread can be summed up amply as this: the MAD, the BAD, and the ugly. Wtf how/why this thread is still open I know not- there is literally nothing more to say since sorcery confessed.
You are a complete idiot.
So the kid comes out and says he hacks, and you feel like that is OK and it should be over after that? Let the flame go on, he deserves it, you sound like someone who cheats himself.
On March 18 2011 10:02 RiceRiceRice wrote: I find the high level 2v2 community unbelievable - people accusing mindset of hacking? Protech upset about everyone who beats him? and people thinking they know better than professional players such as Drewbie?
This 35 page thread can be summed up amply as this: the MAD, the BAD, and the ugly. Wtf how/why this thread is still open I know not- there is literally nothing more to say since sorcery confessed.
You are a complete idiot.
So the kid comes out and says he hacks, and you feel like that is OK and it should be over after that? Let the flame go on, he deserves it, you sound like someone who cheats himself.
Not ok to have a thread on tl with the sole purpose of flaming someone IMO. Let it be open so blizzard can be aware of it yes, but flame, no.
C5five just registrered to come in to this thread and defend hackers?
EPT
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