On March 12 2011 13:10 Sein wrote: I've watched all three replays and I have to say that I agree with your accusations. IMO, those two 2v2 games especially make it pretty obvious.
People have gotten very good at maphacking while pretending like they're not, but they will still slip up and take extremely suspicious actions when they are desperate. Pulling all his marines back just before a large number of banelings show up, suddenly pulling 4 scvs to create a second layer of wall with rax just before a big baneling bust, zero use of scanning and nearly zero scouting, literally spamming bunkers, sending a pretty good number of marines to two unscounted bases... things like that add up and make him more and more suspicious.
It doesn't help that he does have a history of breaking rules and his partner who is supposedly using his account was apparently a well-known cheater in DoTA.
We have all played Protech a lot. They never change how they play ZZ v ZT.
On March 12 2011 13:01 PinkPrincess wrote: I don't think he's nearly as suspicious as you do. The 2v2 games are perfectly explainable by the fact that you play like a robot every 2v2 (which we all know when we play against you...), and the 1v1 had some pretty boneheaded moves if he indeed was hacking.
and what excuse would you make for him continuously looking into the fog of war and then reacting as if he has seen exactly what is there. Maybe his decisions can be justified and he makes intuitive decisions. but if thats the case why look into the fog of war over and over again. I don't know any player who does that.
I don't even know when you're talking about? I watched all three reps to see the exact points in time that Protech was referring to, and I don't recall seeing any weird "huh, I wonder why he's looking there!". Can you say what times you're talking about?
Just like me, he commonly left clicks on the minimap when right clicking to move units there. I do it to make sure I get it exactly where I intended and not stupidly click just above a cliff or some garbage. I assume he does something similar at times.
~6 minutes in 2nd game, as wella s several other times. he's not moving any units just looking there. Your his friend i don't know anyone in this story i didn't play any games. However i watched replays and i thought it was pretty clear what i saw. I guess if he doesn't cheat he will prove his skill soon enough (or most likely he will be banned).
Also, ZZ is something brand new, you say that we play ZZ the same way every time? That's bullshit, the ZZ builds are only 2 weeks old IF EVEN THAT.
Tz vs Tz has been the match up since the hellion ling combo came out. You can't sit there and say that we play ZZ vs ZT the same way every single time. That's bullshit, and it sounds to me like you're just spewing things out of your ass.
Blizzard hasn't exactly been on top of things, I do understand that they are trying to make their case against zynastor and relinquish the hackers is a timely process, but I think the people should know who the real hackers are.
Kk I guess that's reasonable. The title of the thread is a little misleading to the purpose however xD Was just being critical though. Zynastor? is he the hacker who got major punishments? (the first of the hackers caught) Or is that case not done yet?
If they had played vs protech/his ally a lot of times, then its pretty reasonable to build like this. I have to admit that the game on Scorched Haven was pretty weird, their lack of even attempting to scout is pretty sad and the mass barracks wall as well.
The 1v1 is a bit suspicious, most of the things that you mentioned were not really proof of hack in my opinion. I watched a replay that I played vs igware TvT and there was some weird similarities. He did not scout namchir one time for 20 minutes after his scv died, which saw nothing but a standard barracks and a factory. He did the same thing in the game against me, and still in both games, he made turrets at perfect time to counter the banshees ( In the game against me my banshees were super delayed and he didn't make an engi bay / turrets until I started making banshees at about 10 minutes into the game.
If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
The one thing that makes me the most suspicious of him hacking is the fact that his apm / multitasking / macro are just HORRIBLE, and yet he somehow manages to win a ton of games. He does not build efficiently or have good timings. FFS his macro is barely diamond league. There is a ton of things that every player in the top 200 knows to do that he has no clue about.
I can't say that I 100% think that he is hacking, there is no hard proof, but it is pretty weird and you have to take everything protech says with a grain of salt because he is the most BM person I have ever seen and he is definitely missing a few screws.
The one thing that makes me the most suspicious of him hacking is the fact that his apm / multitasking / macro are just HORRIBLE, and yet he somehow manages to win a ton of games. He does not build efficiently or have good timings. FFS his macro is barely diamond league. There is a ton of things that every player in the top 200 knows to do that he has no clue about.
Exactly as I felt-- like a mid level diamond player with ridiculously uncanny intuition yet never scouts.
On March 12 2011 13:30 drewbie.root wrote: If they had played vs protech/his ally a lot of times, then its pretty reasonable to build like this. I have to admit that the game on Scorched Haven was pretty weird, their lack of even attempting to scout is pretty sad and the mass barracks wall as well.
The 1v1 is a bit suspicious, most of the things that you mentioned were not really proof of hack in my opinion. I watched a replay that I played vs igware TvT and there was some weird similarities. He did not scout namchir one time for 20 minutes after his scv died, which saw nothing but a standard barracks and a factory. He did the same thing in the game against me, and still in both games, he made turrets at perfect time to counter the banshees ( In the game against me my banshees were super delayed and he didn't make an engi bay / turrets until I started making banshees at about 10 minutes into the game.
If he does hack, then he is really really good at hiding it because there are a lot of things that he does that make it seem like a normal game. He could just be really fucking bad at scouting ( I am kidding nobody in the top 200 has ever gone 20 minutes without scouting their opponent at all ) and be a really smart player and just be a bit lucky.
The one thing that makes me the most suspicious of him hacking is the fact that his apm / multitasking / macro are just HORRIBLE, and yet he somehow manages to win a ton of games. He does not build efficiently or have good timings. FFS his macro is barely diamond league. There is a ton of things that every player in the top 200 knows to do that he has no clue about.
I can't say that I 100% think that he is hacking, there is no hard proof, but it is pretty weird and you have to take everything protech says with a grain of salt because he is the most BM person I have ever seen and he is definitely missing a few screws.
I openly apologize for bad mannering you as I have been watching your streams and you are a cool dude. I do apologize, sometimes the e-drama is what makes sc2, sc2 for us team players who dont play that competitively.
I agree with your assumptions, but I do disagree with how these games do not show obvious hacks. As you stated in your TvT he always has the timing of the banshee / cloak every game. He always knows when it's being produced and waits almost to the last second to make the ebay giving him enough time to prepare for it, I have seen this is MANY MANY MANY of our TZ vs TZ match ups.
EDIT: They have not played the ZZ vs ZT combo tons of times, they have played me with the TZ vs TZ combo A LOT of times.
On March 12 2011 13:29 ProTech wrote: Also, ZZ is something brand new, you say that we play ZZ the same way every time? That's bullshit, the ZZ builds are only 2 weeks old IF EVEN THAT.
Tz vs Tz has been the match up since the hellion ling combo came out. You can't sit there and say that we play ZZ vs ZT the same way every single time. That's bullshit, and it sounds to me like you're just spewing things out of your ass.
The vast majority of ZZs I've seen of you, you double 10 pool, or if it goes longer you go for mass baneling bust. Having said that, I'm sure if I play you again you'll mix it up since I just said that, but before that going into a game I'd absolutely expect you to play exactly like you did on Scorched.
Not sure how closely you looked at game 1 with the cloak/eng bay thing.
First i watched from His PoV, and he never looks at his opponents base.
Secondly, i watched carefully to see whether he built the Eng bay before or after the cloak started.
He actually sent the SCV to build it BEFORE cloak started so this is no proof of hacking, just Good luck/Really close timings. Cloak banshee is a standard opener in TvT
On March 12 2011 13:18 ProTech wrote: Everything I speculated took quite some time and thought and reasoning before posting.
It took quite some time and thought and reasoning to say that someone builds an engi bay after their opponent starts cloak even when it's clearly not true? I noticed that on my first viewing of that replay and you're accusing someone of hacking and you don't even take the time to look closely at these kinds of things...
Just finished the second game. Not once did iGware look through the fog of war at ANYTHING that his opponents had. What the hell are you guys talking about??
Yo ProTech I've played u a couple times (I'm cFChoseN - T user). You make a pretty good case, at the very least I know some of those guys have massive account sharing and some fishy stuff going on. But I'm wondering, isn't PinkPrincess known as MegumixBear now? You listed a different aka for him, he's one of my allies.
Oh and what hacks are out? I noticed you said Production tab hack??? There is actually shit like that out there? How common is it on Bnet?
As my final closing statement in this post I will be uploading alot more of our games played against igware / sorcery. There are a lot of things that I want people to see, but it takes a lot of time to watch the rep and write about it, so this will come at a later date.
As I stated before, these are just my perspective and my opinions, you will have your own. Im just putting this out there because if he really does hack, then it's a shame that blizzard is not catching this and recognizing him at the #1 top 200 player, when drewbie clearly stated, his mechanics and macro are diamond level, which I seriously agree with.
Thank you for all your posts and input on the situation, as I will have more to come!
14:20 mark of 2nd game he is sending the rines to the bottom bunker in preparation for the speedlings that he hasn't seen coming yet. The reason he is caught off guard with the mutas is likely the fact that they look/move similar to speedlings on the minimap.
Well ProTech, I've played you a couple times to know your skill in SC2 is pretty unmatched. I've gotten brutally hurt each time I played you, and I think its unlikely he's been hard countering you like that each game without aid.
However, if you think he's cheating, perhaps set up some kind of custom 2v2 or 1v1 with him, and have all players stream themselves? (actually this only solves part of the problem, afterall, you can always "lose" a game)
played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base.
I haven't watched any of the replays, but for those saying that he made the ebay before cloak was started. If you see 1 starport with tech lab... it's gonna be cloak banshee 95% of the time. It doesn't hurt to just start an ebay in advance if you have a view of their production tab.
On March 12 2011 13:46 nalgene wrote: This guy's in the top 200, so his game sense would be pretty good even without scouting...
flash's game sense and knowing the flow of the game is pretty good...
and as that igware guy plays more, his game sense would continuously improve...
maybe he's just good at 2s?
Clearly SC2 isn't brood war. SC2 is based on hard counter and good scouting. I doubt someone could get into top 200 with that bad of an APM, multitasking, and macro. Have you even watched the replays? This isn't brood war.
I do not share my account with anyone, however. We've nearly got Sorcery set up streaming, but it's like dragging a horse through mud with how bad he is at these tech things
EPT
