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On March 07 2011 07:00 Mephyss wrote:
I did a small test on map editor. changed marines, marauders and hydralisks stats to 50 damage (1 shot zerglings), 5 sec firerate (to check between hits easier) and 20 range (so they dont waste time moving to shoot).
I put 10 of them in a line with 10 burrowed zerglings and unburrowed ingame. On marine lane all 10 zerglings died on first shoot cycle. Hydras were taking 3 cycles to kill all zerglings (3 or 4 zerglings dying each cycle) and marauders were slowers with only 2 kills each cycle, 5 cycles to get all kills
Wow that sounds quite incredible, but so did this video before I watched it. Would be pretty cool to see your test.
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It's interesting to see the difference smart targeting makes, really.
It makes me wonder, is this something that should be changed? Should all instants become missles or the other way around? Should all attacks smart target/not smart target?
Or is it fine how it is atm?
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On March 07 2011 07:00 Mephyss wrote:
I did a small test on map editor. changed marines, marauders and hydralisks stats to 50 damage (1 shot zerglings), 5 sec firerate (to check between hits easier) and 20 range (so they dont waste time moving to shoot).
I put 10 of them in a line with 10 burrowed zerglings and unburrowed ingame. On marine lane all 10 zerglings died on first shoot cycle. Hydras were taking 3 cycles to kill all zerglings (3 or 4 zerglings dying each cycle) and marauders were slowers with only 2 kills each cycle, 5 cycles to get all kills
wow that sounds pretty credible. Mind doing it in a video? I want to see it for my self.
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On March 06 2011 23:58 Nis wrote:
I think the main reason why instant shots have such a huge adv over missile shots is the fact that the ai targeting for instant shots make it impossible for units with instant shots to do overkill, but thats not the case for missile shots.
Eg 2 hydra fires 1 after another at a marine with only 6 hp left leads to quite a significant dps loss
That is a good point.
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On March 07 2011 05:21 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:15 JinDesu wrote:On March 07 2011 05:11 Sek-Kuar wrote:This results does not make any sense mathematically. If all enemy units are in range of all units and marines start attacking at the very same momment - and there is no reason to believe otherwise - and hit at the very same momment, then they should logically overkill. Only possible way to explain this is that Hydra projectile is slower that attack cooldown, or that there is some sort of smart targeting. It should be possible to see this in smaller groups - in 8vs8 test, both groups should be equal, otherwise it means that there is some kind of smart targeting. Mathematically there is no other way to explain it. Maybe there is something in game Blizzard dont know about  If someone can test marine overkill - scan a 1hp obs in a ball of marines and see how many marines fire. then mod the marine atk speed to a large number and do this next one: have a 1hp obs and a 400hp obs above a ball of marines. scan, and see how much damage the 400hp obs takes in the salvo. if it isnt the number of marines - the one that should have taken out the 1hp obs, then marines overkill. if it is only missing the damage from 1 marine, then marines dont overkill. This is actually great test, but not for what you mean. Insta shoot can not mathematically explain lack of overkill. But if you have group of marines, half of them is close to low HP observer, and second half is close to high HP observer, then after scan they should instantly all at the same time attack closer target... So if what Dustin said is true, there *should* be over kill. If there is not, then some kind of smart targeting is in game. Just presence of "insta shooting" can not explain absence of overkill.
I can't remember exactly where I heard this, but there was TL thread in which somebody (with good credibility, IIRC >.>) explained how no two actions in Starcraft can be literally simultaneous. Where actions would be simultaneous (two marines firing), they are actually placed in an arbitrary order, with an infinitesimal delay between them. This means that when a group of marines fire "simultaneously", there is actually a (tiny, tiny, tiny) delay between each attack. This also means that technically there is always a delay between attacks being made and landing, but I believe that the hit action for an "immediate" attack like that of a marine is the next action to be processed after the fire action. This explains why two marines attacking each other can never both die. Even if they both begin attacking at what seems to be the exact same time, one will always land the final blow before the other. If the attacks were truly simultaneous, then both marines would die.
Because of this, each marine will acquire its target after all previously-made attacks have landed, making over-kill impossible.
I wish I had more concrete sources for these statements, but they do seem to align with what we see in-game. Maybe somebody else will be able to come along and back me up or contradict me with better sources.
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Can someone do it with stalkers?
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Yep. This is the reason that scouts are good in SC1. Everyone should use scouts because of its usage in anti ground without overkill.
+ Show Spoiler +Didn't realize it was that big O_O
3 attack!
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On March 07 2011 07:08 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 07:03 iPood wrote:
wow thats insane. Why would it being missile make a difference if the damage/shot delay is the same?? I don't get it... because travel time means damage is wasted (infinite hydras will fire at that one marine with 1 hp because at the time of firing. that marine was still alive, marines however only 1 marine will fire because the damage is instant) people say tanks have "smart fire ai" they dont theres nothing smart theres no ai they just fire instantly but 1 at a time. it's just so fast you can't see it. this thread shocks me. i thought everyone knew this. this all seems like basic fundamental knowledge of the game.
well, I have heard/read/acquired information of there being a tank "smart AI" which has nothing to do with overkill, instead the "smart AI" is designed in such a way that, if there are multiple possible targets to attack, it will automaticly choose to attack the target which has the greatest "crowd" of enemy units around it, a.k.a. it will prefer to fire at clusters of enemies, thus maximizing the splash effect.
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wait, someone should do it with 1 hydra vs 1 marine as well just to show the differences imo.
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On March 07 2011 08:10 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 07:08 MavercK wrote:On March 07 2011 07:03 iPood wrote:
wow thats insane. Why would it being missile make a difference if the damage/shot delay is the same?? I don't get it... because travel time means damage is wasted (infinite hydras will fire at that one marine with 1 hp because at the time of firing. that marine was still alive, marines however only 1 marine will fire because the damage is instant) people say tanks have "smart fire ai" they dont theres nothing smart theres no ai they just fire instantly but 1 at a time. it's just so fast you can't see it. this thread shocks me. i thought everyone knew this. this all seems like basic fundamental knowledge of the game. well, I have heard/read/acquired information of there being a tank "smart AI" which has nothing to do with overkill, instead the "smart AI" is designed in such a way that, if there are multiple possible targets to attack, it will automaticly choose to attack the target which has the greatest "crowd" of enemy units around it, a.k.a. it will prefer to fire at clusters of enemies, thus maximizing the splash effect.
I'm pretty sure there isn't such a thing. That would make micro pointless.
When people refer to "smart AI" for tanks, they simply mean that tanks don't overkill. In other words, zealot bombing and other such anti-tank line strats from BW don't work nearly as efficiently in SC2 as they did in SC:BW.
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On March 07 2011 08:15 SheaR619 wrote:
wait, someone should do it with 1 hydra vs 1 marine as well just to show the differences imo.
There wouldn't illustrate anything, because the issue is overkill. When there is a group of marines (or any other units) being attacked, then having excessive shots aimed at one target means that potential damage is wasted. If there's only one marine to target, then overkill is irrelevant, because there are no other units to be damaged.
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Actually, an interesting caveat of this (that some have probably noticed in practice) is that target firing with missile attackers can actually be less efficient than a-moving in some circumstances, due to the presence of overkill.
As an example, imagine 2 groups of units that begin firing together, and have identical firing rate. Attackers have missile attack, and sufficient hitpoints to tank the Defenders' damage with negligible losses:
Attackers: n_1 units, h_1 hitpoints, d_1 damage
Defenders: n_2 units, h_2 hitpoints, d_2 damage
Scenario A: Attackers attack defenders one-to-one. In this case, each Defender dies after h_2/d_1 rounds of fire, resulting in total damage to the defenders of D_A = n_2*d_2*h_2/d_1.
Scenario 2: Attackers target fire a single defender unit each round. Supposing n_1*d_1 > h_2 (i.e., Attackers do sufficient damage to one-shot defender units), the count of defenders decreases by 1 per firing round, meaning the total damage to defenders is the sum of an arithmetic progression:
D_B = d_2*n_2*(1+n_2).
Generally target firing is better, since it reduces the enemy unit count more quickly, but in cases where d_1*(1+n_2) is much greater than h_2 (i.e., when armies are large, or enemy units have low life totals), this is no longer the case. This is clearly intuitive, but some might appreciate the mathematical derivation.
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On March 07 2011 08:10 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 07:08 MavercK wrote:On March 07 2011 07:03 iPood wrote:
wow thats insane. Why would it being missile make a difference if the damage/shot delay is the same?? I don't get it... because travel time means damage is wasted (infinite hydras will fire at that one marine with 1 hp because at the time of firing. that marine was still alive, marines however only 1 marine will fire because the damage is instant) people say tanks have "smart fire ai" they dont theres nothing smart theres no ai they just fire instantly but 1 at a time. it's just so fast you can't see it. this thread shocks me. i thought everyone knew this. this all seems like basic fundamental knowledge of the game. well, I have heard/read/acquired information of there being a tank "smart AI" which has nothing to do with overkill, instead the "smart AI" is designed in such a way that, if there are multiple possible targets to attack, it will automaticly choose to attack the target which has the greatest "crowd" of enemy units around it, a.k.a. it will prefer to fire at clusters of enemies, thus maximizing the splash effect.
i can assure you as a person who has gone over every unit in the editor with a fine comb they do not have anything like this
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On March 07 2011 08:25 YoungNeil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 08:15 SheaR619 wrote:
wait, someone should do it with 1 hydra vs 1 marine as well just to show the differences imo. There wouldn't illustrate anything, because the issue is overkill. When there is a group of marines (or any other units) being attacked, then having excessive shots aimed at one target means that potential damage is wasted. If there's only one marine to target, then overkill is irrelevant, because there are no other units to be damaged.
Ya true, you will not see how instant projectile effect overkill but you will see the DPS differences in instant projectile vs projectile. My prediction is that the marine will kill the hydra because he has instant projectile but by how much? O.o
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On March 07 2011 08:42 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 08:25 YoungNeil wrote:On March 07 2011 08:15 SheaR619 wrote:
wait, someone should do it with 1 hydra vs 1 marine as well just to show the differences imo. There wouldn't illustrate anything, because the issue is overkill. When there is a group of marines (or any other units) being attacked, then having excessive shots aimed at one target means that potential damage is wasted. If there's only one marine to target, then overkill is irrelevant, because there are no other units to be damaged. Ya true, you will not see how instant projectile effect overkill but you will see the DPS differences in instant projectile vs projectile. My prediction is that the marine will kill the hydra because he has instant projectile but by how much? O.o
what? no.
marine has half the hydras hp and does less dps.
o.0
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there is no dps difference.
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On March 07 2011 06:39 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 06:36 Lennon wrote:On March 07 2011 00:03 PulseSUI wrote:On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote:
That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference? overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks. That's a great point. Hydras need to be given smart-fire. They're useless versus Terran. Not just because of tanks; they're not all that good against bio either which is proven in this video. Except the video shows marines with instant fire vs marines wearing hydralisks for a halloween party and throwing hydra spines to stay in character. It's merely a comparison of instant fire vs projectiles; whether or not units with projectiles suck because of ONLY the projectiles or if there are other factors (hydras run so slooowwww) should be a separate discussion, i think.
You're right; it's a separate discussion. I still think Hydras need smart-fire. Although, it might look bad without projectiles.
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this is actually pretty huge
just another proof that something needs to be done.
(and people keep telling terran is the micro intensive race.)
during a fight targetfiring with missible based units can backfire, though this was obvious to begin with, even just a-moving is alot less efficient. this makes comparision by Stats between Units that have instant attack and missible attack nearly useless.
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really interestesting find, I'm disappointed in myself that I failed to identify this as a balance metric with units outside of the tank. I might have considered it a tiny bit, but obviously the role is far more significant than anticipated.
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On March 07 2011 08:46 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 08:42 SheaR619 wrote:On March 07 2011 08:25 YoungNeil wrote:On March 07 2011 08:15 SheaR619 wrote:
wait, someone should do it with 1 hydra vs 1 marine as well just to show the differences imo. There wouldn't illustrate anything, because the issue is overkill. When there is a group of marines (or any other units) being attacked, then having excessive shots aimed at one target means that potential damage is wasted. If there's only one marine to target, then overkill is irrelevant, because there are no other units to be damaged. Ya true, you will not see how instant projectile effect overkill but you will see the DPS differences in instant projectile vs projectile. My prediction is that the marine will kill the hydra because he has instant projectile but by how much? O.o what? no. marine has half the hydras hp and does less dps. o.0
I am assuming if both of them have the same stats and size and everything just like in the video. :p
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EPT
