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On March 07 2011 05:15 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:11 Sek-Kuar wrote:This results does not make any sense mathematically. If all enemy units are in range of all units and marines start attacking at the very same momment - and there is no reason to believe otherwise - and hit at the very same momment, then they should logically overkill. Only possible way to explain this is that Hydra projectile is slower that attack cooldown, or that there is some sort of smart targeting. It should be possible to see this in smaller groups - in 8vs8 test, both groups should be equal, otherwise it means that there is some kind of smart targeting. Mathematically there is no other way to explain it. Maybe there is something in game Blizzard dont know about  If someone can test marine overkill - scan a 1hp obs in a ball of marines and see how many marines fire. then mod the marine atk speed to a large number and do this next one: have a 1hp obs and a 400hp obs above a ball of marines. scan, and see how much damage the 400hp obs takes in the salvo. if it isnt the number of marines - the one that should have taken out the 1hp obs, then marines overkill. if it is only missing the damage from 1 marine, then marines dont overkill. Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:14 Synk wrote:
Yea, just check my sig I guess I'm done with this thread, take a useful piece of info if you want it. If you can't understand the test I did then I guess you don't deserve to benefit from it. except you test does NOT set things equal... unlike the OP unless you tell us "My hydras were the same hp and damage as the marines, and I tested the armor vs attack upgrades, and i did this with varying hp/damage considerations so it isnt just for one specific scenario," then you can absolutely say projectile using units should upgrade armor.
An easier test would be having 2 marines and two 1 hp observers, one of which is closer to both marines than the other, but both are in range. If there is overkill both of the marines should fire at the closer observer, taking 2 valleys to kill the observers, if there isn't, the marines will kill an observer each.
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On March 07 2011 05:26 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:15 JinDesu wrote:On March 07 2011 05:11 Sek-Kuar wrote:This results does not make any sense mathematically. If all enemy units are in range of all units and marines start attacking at the very same momment - and there is no reason to believe otherwise - and hit at the very same momment, then they should logically overkill. Only possible way to explain this is that Hydra projectile is slower that attack cooldown, or that there is some sort of smart targeting. It should be possible to see this in smaller groups - in 8vs8 test, both groups should be equal, otherwise it means that there is some kind of smart targeting. Mathematically there is no other way to explain it. Maybe there is something in game Blizzard dont know about If someone can test marine overkill - scan a 1hp obs in a ball of marines and see how many marines fire. then mod the marine atk speed to a large number and do this next one: have a 1hp obs and a 400hp obs above a ball of marines. scan, and see how much damage the 400hp obs takes in the salvo. if it isnt the number of marines - the one that should have taken out the 1hp obs, then marines overkill. if it is only missing the damage from 1 marine, then marines dont overkill. On March 07 2011 05:14 Synk wrote:
Yea, just check my sig I guess I'm done with this thread, take a useful piece of info if you want it. If you can't understand the test I did then I guess you don't deserve to benefit from it. except you test does NOT set things equal... unlike the OP unless you tell us "My hydras were the same hp and damage as the marines, and I tested the armor vs attack upgrades, and i did this with varying hp/damage considerations so it isnt just for one specific scenario," then you can absolutely say projectile using units should upgrade armor. An easier test would be having 2 marines and two 1 hp observers, one of which is closer to both marines than the other, but both are in range. If there is overkill both of the marines should fire at the closer observer, taking 2 valleys to kill the observers, if there isn't, the marines will kill an observer each.
this works too, i think. i think in the tests, you'll need to do it multiple times to assure that the results are consistent; if there is any variance then we'll need to find out why
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On March 07 2011 05:28 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 05:26 AssuredVacancy wrote:On March 07 2011 05:15 JinDesu wrote:On March 07 2011 05:11 Sek-Kuar wrote:This results does not make any sense mathematically. If all enemy units are in range of all units and marines start attacking at the very same momment - and there is no reason to believe otherwise - and hit at the very same momment, then they should logically overkill. Only possible way to explain this is that Hydra projectile is slower that attack cooldown, or that there is some sort of smart targeting. It should be possible to see this in smaller groups - in 8vs8 test, both groups should be equal, otherwise it means that there is some kind of smart targeting. Mathematically there is no other way to explain it. Maybe there is something in game Blizzard dont know about If someone can test marine overkill - scan a 1hp obs in a ball of marines and see how many marines fire. then mod the marine atk speed to a large number and do this next one: have a 1hp obs and a 400hp obs above a ball of marines. scan, and see how much damage the 400hp obs takes in the salvo. if it isnt the number of marines - the one that should have taken out the 1hp obs, then marines overkill. if it is only missing the damage from 1 marine, then marines dont overkill. On March 07 2011 05:14 Synk wrote:
Yea, just check my sig I guess I'm done with this thread, take a useful piece of info if you want it. If you can't understand the test I did then I guess you don't deserve to benefit from it. except you test does NOT set things equal... unlike the OP unless you tell us "My hydras were the same hp and damage as the marines, and I tested the armor vs attack upgrades, and i did this with varying hp/damage considerations so it isnt just for one specific scenario," then you can absolutely say projectile using units should upgrade armor. An easier test would be having 2 marines and two 1 hp observers, one of which is closer to both marines than the other, but both are in range. If there is overkill both of the marines should fire at the closer observer, taking 2 valleys to kill the observers, if there isn't, the marines will kill an observer each. this works too, i think. i think in the tests, you'll need to do it multiple times to assure that the results are consistent; if there is any variance then we'll need to find out why
Yeah this seems like even better idea, 2 marines both in range of 2 observers, but one is much closer to them than other.
If there is no overkill, then really one possible explanation is smart targeting - but Dustin said that no such a thing exist. It works for Tanks because units are coming to their range not all at once, so closest tank can kill unit (with insta shoot) before it even gets to range of second tank - and thats principe of mysterious "smart targeting".
But in this 2 obs + scan test it shouldnt work, because obs will be revealed at same time. So both marines should stoot at closer observer at same time, because at the time they are both shooting observer is still alive.
But if they dont overkill, then there is something in game Blizzard is not saying or dont know about...
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Lots of people tested this even during beta. Instant attacks do not overkill at all. The engine processes them in order, unit death is processed on the killing blow and the following units can no longer attack it, since it's no longer a valid target, so they acquire new targets.
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that's pretty interesting
i never even knew there was a difference between marine attack and hydra attack
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Marines hard counter Hydras so this isnt a surprise it isnt realistic against terran as most of the units are cost effective when countering it
User was temp banned for this post.
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For the millionth time THEY ARE NOT HYDRALISKS
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On March 07 2011 05:46 Zerkaszhan wrote:
Marines hard counter Hydras so this isnt a surprise it isnt realistic against terran as most of the units are cost effective when countering it
Ok, i will sum up, would you just did:
1. You found a post on teamliquid, called "insta vs. missile shot". You opened it.
2. What do you see? The first thing is a short, bold text. You ignored it. Reading? Too difficult!
3. You see a video with 12 marines fighting 12 hydras, The Marines always win.
4. There is even more text after the Video! Still, you are to lazy, so you keep ignoring those "s-e-n-t-e-n-c-e-s".
5. You hit the "reply" button and write some 100% irrelevant stuff: "Marines hard counter Hydras." This, my friend, is so wrong it isnt even funny anymore.
Good for you i am no moderator, i would totally give you (and 50% of the people who replied to the op) 2 day bans.
@topic: Like some other people already pointed out, this is interesting, but naturally the way it should be. Instant shot is superior over missle shots.
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it is because the engine only prevents overkill with insta attack, as it is dumb/techy term
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On March 07 2011 04:26 lilky wrote:
CAN YOU F*CKIN RETARDS READ THE DAMN OP POST!??!!?
jesus christ stupid americans cant read the 20 words in the post
for those of you who are too stupid to understand what the OP is saying:
THOSE ARE NOT NORMAL HYDRALISKS IN THE VIDEO
THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME STATS (health, range, rate of fire, unit collision size, movement speed, EVERYTHING)
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE HYDRALISKS FIRE PROJECTILES AND THE MARINES FIRE INSTANTLY.
as a result, the marines CANNOT overkill
the hydralisks do overkill
Why the insults? Good lord.
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Bangladesh2839 Posts
On March 07 2011 05:46 Zerkaszhan wrote:
Marines hard counter Hydras so this isnt a surprise it isnt realistic against terran as most of the units are cost effective when countering it
Way to make yourself look silly. If you actually think that 24 real hydras should lose to 24 marines then you have a horrible look on balance lol
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United States158 Posts
The problem is that the hydras are over killing and the marines are not. I never knew it was to such an extent though this is probably why tanks are so strong in high numbers.
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Can a mod edit the first post please ? The first thing these morons see is "Marine vs Hydra" and the video. They do not bother reading the rest.
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Hungary11305 Posts
I edited something into the OP, I hope that helps with reading. On the other hand, it was pretty good for uncovering people who are unwilling to read the OP, so I am torn.
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On March 07 2011 06:20 tainted muffin wrote:
The problem is that the hydras are over killing and the marines are not. I never knew it was to such an extent though this is probably why tanks are so strong in high numbers.
Hello tainted muffin. Respected teamliquid member lilky has a message for you:
On March 07 2011 04:26 lilky wrote:
CAN YOU F*CKIN RETARDS READ THE DAMN OP POST!??!!?
jesus christ stupid americans cant read the 20 words in the post
for those of you who are too stupid to understand what the OP is saying:
THOSE ARE NOT NORMAL HYDRALISKS IN THE VIDEO
THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME STATS (health, range, rate of fire, unit collision size, movement speed, EVERYTHING)
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE HYDRALISKS FIRE PROJECTILES AND THE MARINES FIRE INSTANTLY.
as a result, the marines CANNOT overkill
the hydralisks do overkill
Its actually funny that you indeed ARE an american..
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On March 07 2011 06:26 Aesop wrote:
I edited something into the OP, I hope that helps with reading. On the other hand, it was pretty good for uncovering people who are unwilling to read the OP, so I am torn.
I love you.
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It seems the prevailing opinion here is that the difference is caused by the difference in overkill mechanics. However, I'm not entirely sure about that. I strongly suspect the difference here is caused by the delay between the 1st marine shot volley hitting and the first spine volley hitting. This could result in a sort of snowballing effect which results in the large difference observed.
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On March 07 2011 06:10 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 04:26 lilky wrote:
CAN YOU F*CKIN RETARDS READ THE DAMN OP POST!??!!?
jesus christ stupid americans cant read the 20 words in the post
for those of you who are too stupid to understand what the OP is saying:
THOSE ARE NOT NORMAL HYDRALISKS IN THE VIDEO
THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME STATS (health, range, rate of fire, unit collision size, movement speed, EVERYTHING)
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE HYDRALISKS FIRE PROJECTILES AND THE MARINES FIRE INSTANTLY.
as a result, the marines CANNOT overkill
the hydralisks do overkill Why the insults? Good lord.
He probably had a bad day, it's understandable.
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On March 07 2011 00:03 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote:
That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference? overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks.
That's a great point. Hydras need to be given smart-fire. They're useless versus Terran. Not just because of tanks; they're not all that good against bio either.
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EPT
