all hydra stats (collision size, hp, attack dmg and shot delays) were tweaked to match the marine. The only difference between the 2 in this video is that the hydra shoots a missile, the marine shoots instantly.
The result? Marines destroy the hydras by a ridiculous amount. The fight is equal when hydras are given +3 attack.
This video does NOT show that hydras are weak or that marines are OP. This videos purpose is to demonstrate the power that units with insta shot have. Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot?
Probably true, there's a lot of imbalance in the core mechanics. I don't think Hydras will be overall good unless they get serious buffs. Just in movement speed would be nice, if they could reach attack range quicker, their higher DPS would come in to effect, and they wouldn't be committed off creep. So much for Zerg's mobility..
i think even using hydras is gonna derail the discussion because 50% of replys wont read the part about hp and attack dps so this should be a fun thread.
its true there is an advantage to instant attacks, but i think it should just considered a stat like any other, if projectile speed was displayed on the weapon icon people would more readily count it among the stats such as attack speed and damage.
Not bad video, ofcourse it allmost never happens that hidra will fight like that vs marines ( no1 will even make those in zvt). But i always thought that marine is a bit too much cost-effective...
Just visualize how easily goliaths or marines clear minefields, and then compare that to dragoons.
The difference is, mainly, that units die slightly faster (a killing blow from a marine kills the enemy unit instantly and the unit cannot fire its own attack, whereas a killing blow from a hydra allows a time window for the enemy unit to get off one more attack) and the mitigation of overkilling blows.
If I take one hydra and one marine(both unupgraded) and pit them against each other, the hydra will come out on top. Almost to the point of being ridiculous. Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot?
These videos are as silly now just as they were back in the beta when you would see one pop up almost every day. They dont really prove anything and just waste peoples time. Not to berate you in any way but it's more or less why you dont see them any more. Most have realised that the only true way to see something as op or not is through testing the units out in real battle conditions not in a vacuum like in this video.
I think the main reason why instant shots have such a huge adv over missile shots is the fact that the ai targeting for instant shots make it impossible for units with instant shots to do overkill, but thats not the case for missile shots.
Eg 2 hydra fires 1 after another at a marine with only 6 hp left leads to quite a significant dps loss
On March 06 2011 23:50 FortuneSyn wrote: Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot?
Cool video (although I couldn't read any of it)
Well, I think the very fact that the designers can make a spell/ attack instant or missile (or even able to be dodged) is an added mechanic that allows for versatility and better buffing/ nerfing abilities.
If there's a specific match-up that's proven to be broken because of this, there are a multitude of variables that could be slightly tweaked (including this).
I don't see a direct problem with it in any specific case though. It's just an interesting thing you pointed out.
Wow that is really a huge difference. And that's with the units starting right next to each other. It would probably be an even bigger difference if they started at maximum range.
Well it'll be much closer if you choose a unit with slower attack speed. At this example , marine attack speed is too high so they get extra shots while Hydra missile shot are on fly. So actually this is one of the extreme scenarios you can create.
On March 06 2011 23:56 FarbrorAbavna wrote: If I take one hydra and one marine(both unupgraded) and pit them against each other, the hydra will come out on top. Almost to the point of being ridiculous. Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot?
These videos are as silly now just as they were back in the beta when you would see one pop up almost every day. They dont really prove anything and just waste peoples time. Not to berate you in any way but it's more or less why you dont see them any more. Most have realised that the only true way to see something as op or not is through testing the units out in real battle conditions not in a vacuum like in this video.
These are not Hydralisks They are Marines with the Hydralisk model and attack animation
On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote: That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference?
overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks.
while it does look like the marines all shot at the exact same time, they actualy shoot with miniscule delays to each other, since there damage is instand and a marine kills the target the next will not "waste" his damage on a allready dead target. the hydras do not have that, there attack is a missile and you can fire 50 Missiles that each do 1 million damage on a target that has 1 hp left, the first will kill it, the rest will evaporate.
it is also one of the main reasons that stalkers perform sub-par and the only thing preventing the Marauder getting hit with a nerf-bat.
The video is really portraying the very worst case - it even syncs up all the hydra shots (they all shoot at exactly the same time since they are all in range of enemies from start to finish). It'd probably already be much less of a deal if the unit groups walked towards each other before fighting instead of spawning the way they do in the video.
On March 06 2011 23:58 Nis wrote: I think the main reason why instant shots have such a huge adv over missile shots is the fact that the ai targeting for instant shots make it impossible for units with instant shots to do overkill, but thats not the case for missile shots.
Eg 2 hydra fires 1 after another at a marine with only 6 hp left leads to quite a significant dps loss
I thought there was AI to prefent overkill, or does that only apply to siege tanks?
EPT
