EPTinsta vs. missile shot - Page 17
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CountBarq
United States45 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:12 Tektos wrote: no I think you kind of missed mine.Think you missed my point Morimacil covers it in-depth and explains it better. On March 07 2011 13:31 morimacil wrote: Using 2 units from the same race wouldnt really change much. The thread is basically: "look at how incredibly powerful instant attacks are compared to missile attacks" After that, no matter the units you used to demonstrate the mechanic in itself, its always just a matter of time before someone goes: "Hey, look! This mechanic is super powerful, and somehow terran has a massive amount of units using that mechanic compared to the other races! wtf?" And then from there it snowballs into balance discussion anyway. - the instashot mechanic is way more powerful than the missile one - terran got the better end of the instashot vs missile deal Making a demonstration with marauders instead of hydras wouldnt really hide that fact, and/or stop ppl from crying out that terran is imba  My point is that the only thing it would stop are the people complaining about racial imbalance because they didn't realize that the hydras are tweaked to marine stats. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:37 CountBarq wrote: so if you had insane apm you could render this entire thread moot? Yup If you had enough APM to control each individual unit and what they are shooting at for every single shot within your maxed army, you could achieve the same thing that a-moved marines do, and render the whole thread moot. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
If he had used tweaked marines vs normal marines, then more of the debate would focus on the implications of insta-shot vs projectile shot instead of all the confusion over the hydra stats. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:40 morimacil wrote: yeah that's one of the reasons why the newest super-modded SC1 AIs that have come out in the last few years are so damn strong. They can focus fire like mad, they don't waste shots, and they can pull their units out of combat if it gets low on health,Yup If you had enough APM to control each individual unit and what they are shooting at for every single shot within your maxed army, you could achieve the same thing that a-moved marines do, and render the whole thread moot. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
I think the difference between instant-shoot and projectile is fine; it adds more dynamic to the game and makes some units more micro-able etc. and again, just adds depth. I also just realized that Hydras have instant in SC1 (not that you could really step-micro anyways) but projectiles in SC2. I think it would be cool if Hydras had their instant acid (who misses the acid?!?!) spray/spikes again :D and you hear that sound effect xD. It would be interesting if Blizzard changed the Hydra's attack to instant if they decide to change them at all; it wouldn't effect the damage/HP (which would be a problem; think +1 Zealots vs Zerglings). But right now Marines are supposed to be better than Hydras, so that likely mess that up. The video is really portraying the very worst case - it even syncs up all the hydra shots (they all shoot at exactly the same time since they are all in range of enemies from start to finish). It'd probably already be much less of a deal if the unit groups walked towards each other before fighting instead of spawning the way they do in the video. This is interesting; perhaps another test? :D | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I also just realized that Hydras have instant in SC1 (not that you could really step-micro anyways) but projectiles in SC2. I think it would be cool if Hydras had their instant acid (who misses the acid?!?!) spray/spikes again :D and you hear that sound effect xD. It would be interesting if Blizzard changed the Hydra's attack to instant if they decide to change them at all; Well I don't know if the attack was instant in BW, I don't know if ANY attack was instant (I don't think so). In SC1 they wanted it to be a projectile, but aparently there was a technical limitation so they used the splash animation (even though it's description is needle spines). Even if they did change it so that it's not a projectile— which wouldn't make much sense because in SC1 it wasn't supposed to be like that— it's possible that they wouldn't make it instant. For instance, roach isn't a projectile, but it also isn't instant and therefor overshoots. I think the fix should START with increasing hydralisk upgrade damage, because regardless of this whole projectile thing, hydras deal double the damage of a marine per shot, but gain the same amount of damage per upgrade... it's pretty damn unfair. Hydras are just too weak in general also, and need something like a speed upgrade, another 10 health, a damage bonus, or a base damage increase. | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
that is fairly amazing. i would love to see this same experiment with roaches and stalkers given marine stats, just for curiosity's sake or marines given roach stats vs roaches lol | ||
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:27 Crisium wrote: Balancing, perhaps. They were ridiculously powerful at 90hp and .75 delay. At 80hp and .83 delay they are still good against Protoss. Without overkill they would destroy Gateway units. It isn't acid spit' for the Hydralisk's attack in BW.. name clearly states Needle Spines.. also, Grooved Spines range upgrade wouldn't make sense for acid spit. XD | ||
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JesusNeverGotLaid
Canada24 Posts
I got no idea how to make custom maps. | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
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Zerker
Canada201 Posts
On March 07 2011 16:33 hmsrenown wrote: Please some mod edit the post to point out the hydra are marine stats. This proves next to nothing in the actual game...It's interesting in game mechanic anyhow, not relevant to actual playing On March 06 2011 23:50 FortuneSyn wrote: 24 tweaked hydras vs 24 marines. all hydra stats (collision size, hp, attack dmg and shot delays) were tweaked to match the marine. The only difference between the 2 in this video is that the hydra shoots a missile, the marine shoots instantly. Sometimes i wonder if people even read the OP before they reply. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
anyways, ya, it's a bit extreme considering the marine costs nothing and the hydra costs everything (price, speed, and dps apparently) the missile makes sense for hydra, and not for marine.... how do we (or rather blizzard) fix this? we don't know... but it's good that a topic was started | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: This is interesting; perhaps another test? :D well no because that's the point of the test to show that the missile is ineffective the same is seen with mutas, phoenixes, stalkers, roaches, marauders, etc all of which, when fired @ once, can accidentally overshoot where as the marine auto takes a new target (since it's bullet travel time is instant) and begin blasting away | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:49 Whitewing wrote: If you have instant vs. missile attacks, the instant attacks hit first, and score kills faster. This means in some cases, units on one side will die first, and get less attacks. This effect snowballs, as one side has larger dps than the other. This does not factor in to the results in the video. I've explained it like three times in this thread already. | ||
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Ultramus
United States319 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
so creating pure armies of missile based units with equal dps (statwise) then compare the real dmg output on units. i think taking melee units would be the best to use for comparisions since they can't attack back while in hold position. Recording the time needed for total kill (means XXX effective DMG dealt in XXX Time) With that information we can calculate effective DPS rates for each missile based unit. Therefore the effective DPS Bonus an insta-shot unit has over missible shot. (or how much less "real" DPS a missible based unit has) This also adds up with Upgrades obviously a upgraded marine only did +1 damage per attack (meaning 1,2 dps) because of the insta shot effect, missible based units gain less from Attack upgrades since overkill can increase. | ||
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
On March 07 2011 19:40 Ultramus wrote: I honestly think this was unintended, And I think the reasoning was to allow PDD to affect the hydralisk. As it stands, no one makes either because there was no way they thought that marines would shred as hard as they do vs zerg and especially the hydralisk. It's the reason why hydras do so well vs stalkers that are also missile fire. I'm not sure changing either type would be a solution, it would make PDD way too strong TvT if they shot projectiles. They need to reduce the damage of marines to take the huge benefit of hitscan into effect. It's pretty crazy that equal stats it makes THAT much difference, that can't be intended. Marines dont shred Hydras at all. Marines dont shred Hydras at all. Marines dont shred Hydras at all. Hydras are actually a very good fighting unit against terran bio. Its their slow movement (have fun catching stimmed running marines with hydras off creep) and the fact that they get roflestomped by tanks what makes them a bad choice against terran. i mean, no one would say marauders are bad, even though their missles move even slower than the hydra ones. Give marauders marine stats and let them fight marines. i wouldnt be surprised if even 3/0 marauders still lose. | ||
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