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insta vs. missile shot - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
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aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
March 07 2011 01:43 GMT
#281
blizzard needs to fix this overkill stuff its been a huge pain since beta to see how easy their units melt others because of instant fire.
FlashDave.999 aka Star
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
March 07 2011 01:47 GMT
#282
I think they should just take away smartfire. No overkilling means no micro. I just have a huge problem with terran not having to micro their marines. Just doesn't sit well with me. They can easily do this by making the missles of marines so fast that it is not noticeable but since it's not exactly instant, overkill will occur? (correct me if i'm wrong about this)

banelings and tanks...fine, those make sense to have smartfire.
Beyond the Game
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
March 07 2011 01:51 GMT
#283
There are two reasons why instant attacks are better than missile attacks:

First: instant attacks deal initial damage quicker. Average damage rate is the same, but the first hit arrives faster, meaning that the opposing force loses their units slightly faster, meaning they lose DPS over the course of the fight because they lost units faster.

Second: Overkill. Instant attacks don't overkill, so no shots are wasted. Missile attacks do overkill, so some attacks are completely wasted.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
March 07 2011 01:51 GMT
#284
On March 07 2011 10:47 Rucky wrote:
I think they should just take away smartfire. No overkilling means no micro. I just have a huge problem with terran not having to micro their marines. Just doesn't sit well with me. They can easily do this by making the missles of marines so fast that it is not noticeable but since it's not exactly instant, overkill will occur? (correct me if i'm wrong about this)

banelings and tanks...fine, those make sense to have smartfire.


Blizzard already balances units to account for the overkill. If you take away the hitscan, you'll need to increase the dps of half the Terran units or they'll be severely nerfed.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
March 07 2011 01:51 GMT
#285
On March 07 2011 10:34 KevinIX wrote:
Blizzard definitely knows about this. They take into account the "overkill" damage of projectile units when balancing units. It's ok for most units to overkill. It makes units like Terran infantry/tanks unique. Also, instant attacks aren't affected by PDDs.

They only changed this for the siege tank, and only after months of seeing players complain about it and owning with it. Marines weren't modified at all, in fact quite the opposite... marines have an insane attack execution time right now compared to SC1... They don't just move then shoot like in SC1, they are moving while shooting like the phoenix, which is dumb.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
March 07 2011 01:54 GMT
#286
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
March 07 2011 01:56 GMT
#287
On March 07 2011 10:54 Angra wrote:
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.


Hi, how is what you wrote relevant?
Yargh
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
March 07 2011 01:58 GMT
#288
Another tidbit of info, roach attacks are not instant.... which is pretty lame, because it's not a projectile either. I don't know WTF blizzard was doing there.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
March 07 2011 01:58 GMT
#289
On March 07 2011 10:51 KevinIX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 10:47 Rucky wrote:
I think they should just take away smartfire. No overkilling means no micro. I just have a huge problem with terran not having to micro their marines. Just doesn't sit well with me. They can easily do this by making the missles of marines so fast that it is not noticeable but since it's not exactly instant, overkill will occur? (correct me if i'm wrong about this)

banelings and tanks...fine, those make sense to have smartfire.


Blizzard already balances units to account for the overkill. If you take away the hitscan, you'll need to increase the dps of half the Terran units or they'll be severely nerfed.


that's exactly what i'm saying they should do. increase dps to balance the game. DO whatever. I don't really care. Just make it so that micro is there. I hate a-move.
Beyond the Game
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 02:10:49
March 07 2011 01:59 GMT
#290
Didn't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to point out though, that the example is a pretty terrible one, since it makes all the units fire at the exact same time(which never happens ingame), which just makes the difference that much bigger. a-moving both sides would be a lot more realistic example.

I'd be interested to see what happens if you place the hydras in a circle and all the rines in the middle. The rines would probably still win, atleast while being equal(since there's no reason they wouldn't) but I'd assume the hydras would win when they were actually stronger, since it ain't set up to give worst possible result for overkill.
Kazang
Profile Joined August 2010
578 Posts
March 07 2011 02:06 GMT
#291
On March 07 2011 10:51 Xapti wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 10:34 KevinIX wrote:
Blizzard definitely knows about this. They take into account the "overkill" damage of projectile units when balancing units. It's ok for most units to overkill. It makes units like Terran infantry/tanks unique. Also, instant attacks aren't affected by PDDs.

They only changed this for the siege tank, and only after months of seeing players complain about it and owning with it. Marines weren't modified at all, in fact quite the opposite... marines have an insane attack execution time right now compared to SC1... They don't just move then shoot like in SC1, they are moving while shooting like the phoenix, which is dumb.


LOL

No marines cannot move and shoot at the same time, also marine rate of fire with stim is actually slower than it was in broodwar, stim is only a 50% increase instead of 100% dps increase.
BW stim marines do 2x dps, SC2 marines do 1.5x dps.

AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
March 07 2011 02:08 GMT
#292
On March 07 2011 11:06 Kazang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 10:51 Xapti wrote:
On March 07 2011 10:34 KevinIX wrote:
Blizzard definitely knows about this. They take into account the "overkill" damage of projectile units when balancing units. It's ok for most units to overkill. It makes units like Terran infantry/tanks unique. Also, instant attacks aren't affected by PDDs.

They only changed this for the siege tank, and only after months of seeing players complain about it and owning with it. Marines weren't modified at all, in fact quite the opposite... marines have an insane attack execution time right now compared to SC1... They don't just move then shoot like in SC1, they are moving while shooting like the phoenix, which is dumb.


LOL

No marines cannot move and shoot at the same time, also marine rate of fire with stim is actually slower than it was in broodwar, stim is only a 50% increase instead of 100% dps increase.
BW stim marines do 2x dps, SC2 marines do 1.5x dps.



nony has said repeatedly that marines are like phoenixes in that they can move and shoot at the same time.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
Tipany
Profile Joined November 2010
United States368 Posts
March 07 2011 02:08 GMT
#293
On March 07 2011 10:54 Angra wrote:
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.

Lol wait, I'm not sure what the point you're trying to get across here is.

But I think you're not getting the OP?
wat.
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 02:21:39
March 07 2011 02:20 GMT
#294
On March 07 2011 10:56 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 10:54 Angra wrote:
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.


Hi, how is what you wrote relevant?


On March 07 2011 11:08 TheJoyBringer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 10:54 Angra wrote:
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.

Lol wait, I'm not sure what the point you're trying to get across here is.

But I think you're not getting the OP?


*this video doesn't say that marines are OP or hydralisks are UP!!* But look how they decimate these hydralisks when given equal values because they have an instant shot. But *this video doesn't say that marines are OP or hydralisks are UP!!* but should there really be that big of a difference between instant and missle shot? *this video doesn't say that marines are OP or hydralisks are UP!!* you be the judge!!!

ok



sorry I guess I'm just tired of all these threads of people giving completely random examples of the way the game works and then cleverly hiding their balance theory by having a disclaimer saying they aren't discussing balance theory
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 02:23:12
March 07 2011 02:21 GMT
#295
On March 07 2011 11:08 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 11:06 Kazang wrote:
On March 07 2011 10:51 Xapti wrote:
On March 07 2011 10:34 KevinIX wrote:
Blizzard definitely knows about this. They take into account the "overkill" damage of projectile units when balancing units. It's ok for most units to overkill. It makes units like Terran infantry/tanks unique. Also, instant attacks aren't affected by PDDs.

They only changed this for the siege tank, and only after months of seeing players complain about it and owning with it. Marines weren't modified at all, in fact quite the opposite... marines have an insane attack execution time right now compared to SC1... They don't just move then shoot like in SC1, they are moving while shooting like the phoenix, which is dumb.


LOL

No marines cannot move and shoot at the same time, also marine rate of fire with stim is actually slower than it was in broodwar, stim is only a 50% increase instead of 100% dps increase.
BW stim marines do 2x dps, SC2 marines do 1.5x dps.



nony has said repeatedly that marines are like phoenixes in that they can move and shoot at the same time.


Ugh...if marine can shoot while they run then while im stimming marine away they should be able to kill the baneling that are behind them. I think nony just referencing marine like that because marine shoots really fast but in reality, marine can NOT shoot why they are moving. This is common knowledge.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
Dragar
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom971 Posts
March 07 2011 02:31 GMT
#296
Wow, that's fascinating. Goes a long way to explaining why marines are better than their stats might show (when compared to a unit with very similar stats per resource like a hydra, with a different attack animation).
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 02:40:33
March 07 2011 02:39 GMT
#297
What if the HSM was insta damage?

This is probably the most significant example of how much worse the missile aspect makes it.
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
pzea469
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1520 Posts
March 07 2011 02:49 GMT
#298
I think all units should have projectiles, even if they're invisible and or super fast. That way all units would overkill. Having units not overkill just seems too efficient and sorta noobifies the game. Balance aside, i just don't think its good for starcraft.
Kill the Deathball
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
March 07 2011 02:52 GMT
#299
On March 07 2011 11:20 Angra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 10:56 JinDesu wrote:
On March 07 2011 10:54 Angra wrote:
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.


Hi, how is what you wrote relevant?


Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 11:08 TheJoyBringer wrote:
On March 07 2011 10:54 Angra wrote:
I'm going to 1a two types of units into each other. Whichever one wins is overpowered and should be nerfed.

Lol wait, I'm not sure what the point you're trying to get across here is.

But I think you're not getting the OP?


*this video doesn't say that marines are OP or hydralisks are UP!!* But look how they decimate these hydralisks when given equal values because they have an instant shot. But *this video doesn't say that marines are OP or hydralisks are UP!!* but should there really be that big of a difference between instant and missle shot? *this video doesn't say that marines are OP or hydralisks are UP!!* you be the judge!!!

ok


sorry I guess I'm just tired of all these threads of people giving completely random examples of the way the game works and then cleverly hiding their balance theory by having a disclaimer saying they aren't discussing balance theory


So if he used marauders instead of the hydras and set all the values equal to the marine, would you be appeased?
Yargh
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
March 07 2011 02:52 GMT
#300
On March 07 2011 11:49 pzea469 wrote:
I think all units should have projectiles, even if they're invisible and or super fast. That way all units would overkill. Having units not overkill just seems too efficient and sorta noobifies the game. Balance aside, i just don't think its good for starcraft.

Removing the smart AI would also reinstate overkill to a large extent. BW is probably the best example.
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
Prev 1 13 14 15 16 17 19 Next All
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