EPTinsta vs. missile shot - Page 16
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pandaminion
United States270 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:11 pandaminion wrote: Interesting find, it's too bad so many people do not have the ability to read. It's unfortunate that Blizzard HAS the ability to give every missile unit smartfire, but don't. Smartfire marauders? *shivers* | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 07 2011 11:52 JinDesu wrote: So if he used marauders instead of the hydras and set all the values equal to the marine, would you be appeased? Maybe OP should of choosen marine and marauders instead of marine and hydras. Then there would be less complaint :3. Since when you compare 2 OP units the OP unit always win right (sarcasm)? :D | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On March 07 2011 11:52 JinDesu wrote: So if he used marauders instead of the hydras and set all the values equal to the marine, would you be appeased? That doesn't even make sense considering they both have a missile attack. On March 07 2011 12:15 SheaR619 wrote: Maybe OP should of choosen marine and marauders instead of marine and hydras. Then there would be less complaint :3. Since when you compare 2 OP units the OP unit always win right (sarcasm)? :D It would still be the same thing. *IM NOT SAYING MARINES ARE OP* but look how they destroy marauders because of their instant attack!! You be the judge! I'm not trying to say anything that the OP is talking about is right or wrong - I'm just annoyed by the endless amount of threads that try to disguise themselves as something other than balance discussion, when it's clearly balance discussion. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 11:52 101toss wrote: Removing the smart AI would also reinstate overkill to a large extent. BW is probably the best example. I don't think there is any targetting AI in this game different than BW, otherwise you wouldn't see the overkill issues we see with all these projectile attacks. The issue is that some units' attack in this game have no travel time, while in BW, most if not all did have travel time, even if there wasn't a visible projectile. One more thing: this also explains why immortals do quite well also... they deal an assload of damage, so considering that none of their shots get wasted, it is a pretty big deal. | ||
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
I think it is quite interesting that missile shots have such a large detrimental effect versus instant shots, I had never really considered this before. Interesting and informative post, OP. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
On March 06 2011 23:58 Nis wrote: I think the main reason why instant shots have such a huge adv over missile shots is the fact that the ai targeting for instant shots make it impossible for units with instant shots to do overkill, but thats not the case for missile shots. Eg 2 hydra fires 1 after another at a marine with only 6 hp left leads to quite a significant dps loss probably one of the largest reasons, not to mention insta shot opens up and hits the taget first so is already ahead in damage. | ||
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Yung
United States727 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
Hrm, good post OP | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:28 Tektos wrote: I think doing this test as Marines vs. Tweaked Marauders would have saved a lot of "OMG BUFF ZERG NERF TERRAN" posts. I think it is quite interesting that missile shots have such a large detrimental effect versus instant shots, I had never really considered this before. Interesting and informative post, OP. Well that's likely yes, but one issue is that aside from baneling which doesn't really count, and infested terran which also doesn't really count, zerg have no instant damage units. Hydralisks are a unit with a damage delay, and gain only +1 damage per upgrade. It would make sense if hydras got +2 per upgrade, considering they deal double the damage of a marine, and their attack damage is not instant which makes for more wasteful shots Protoss has immortal, sentry, void ray, archon, mothership (not that it really counts) Terran has siege tank, marine, viking ground, thor ground, ghost, planetary fortress, hellion, auto turret Another issue less-related to instant attack and more just overall game balance is void rays. Zerg cannot counter void rays with any equal supply army (excluding queens), even 2 mutalisks per 1 void ray doesn't win, since mutalisks do no better than corruptors vs void rays really. | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
btw, Roaches dont have projectile right? but i think they can still overkill... | ||
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insta
216 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:41 RaiKageRyu wrote: yes I mentioned in one of my posts, roaches have no actual projectile, but their attack is still delayed. It's terrible inequality against zerg in that sense, considering that protoss and terran have quite a few instant-attack units.I always found it funny that a bullet travels faster than a Stalkers laser. btw, Roaches don't have projectile right? but i think they can still overkill... The only other non-projectile I know of that does overshoot is the colossus | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
If you have instant vs. missile attacks, the instant attacks hit first, and score kills faster. This means in some cases, units on one side will die first, and get less attacks. This effect snowballs, as one side has larger dps than the other. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:22 Angra wrote: That doesn't even make sense considering they both have a missile attack. It would still be the same thing. *IM NOT SAYING MARINES ARE OP* but look how they destroy marauders because of their instant attack!! You be the judge! I'm not trying to say anything that the OP is talking about is right or wrong - I'm just annoyed by the endless amount of threads that try to disguise themselves as something other than balance discussion, when it's clearly balance discussion. Hahaha, i feel ya. I just wanted to push yo button! :o Btw, marauder and hydras would not be the same thing. I think hydras bullet moves faster than marauder rockets. So if we set everything equal it might give a very interesting result as well. I think someone else in this post has already done it and said this though. Different attack animation has different speed projectiles so if you set everything the same it will not always give same result per projectile. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:22 Angra wrote: That doesn't even make sense considering they both have a missile attack. It would still be the same thing. *IM NOT SAYING MARINES ARE OP* but look how they destroy marauders because of their instant attack!! You be the judge! I'm not trying to say anything that the OP is talking about is right or wrong - I'm just annoyed by the endless amount of threads that try to disguise themselves as something other than balance discussion, when it's clearly balance discussion. I'm not sure if you realize (I might very well be mistaken), but in the video the hydralisks have all the stats of a marine, they just used a hydralisk because it's probably simpler than to manually duplicate and change marine's weapon so that it uses a projectile. People aren't talking about imbalance because of the units involved, but because of the mechanics overall. The OP wasn't discussing such things, but some people in the topic are. | ||
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
On March 07 2011 12:40 Xapti wrote: Well that's likely yes, but one issue is that aside from baneling which doesn't really count, and infested terran which also doesn't really count, zerg have no instant damage units. Hydralisks are a unit with a damage delay, and gain only +1 damage per upgrade. It would make sense if hydras got +2 per upgrade, considering they deal double the damage of a marine, and their attack damage is not instant which makes for more wasteful shots Protoss has immortal, sentry, void ray, archon, mothership (not that it really counts) Terran has siege tank, marine, viking ground, thor ground, ghost, planetary fortress, hellion, auto turret Another issue less-related to instant attack and more just overall game balance is void rays. Zerg cannot counter void rays with any equal supply army (excluding queens), even 2 mutalisks per 1 void ray doesn't win, since mutalisks do no better than corruptors vs void rays really. Think you missed my point, the reason I said that was because this thread wasn't intended as a "BUFF ZERG PLEASE" thread, it was stating the advantages of instant attacking units. Using two units from the same race would remove the off-topic racial imbalance whine posts. | ||
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Xirroh
Canada146 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
The thread is basically: "look at how incredibly powerful instant attacks are compared to missile attacks" After that, no matter the units you used to demonstrate the mechanic in itself, its always just a matter of time before someone goes: "Hey, look! This mechanic is super powerful, and somehow terran has a massive amount of units using that mechanic compared to the other races! wtf?" And then from there it snowballs into balance discussion anyway. - the instashot mechanic is way more powerful than the missile one - terran got the better end of the instashot vs missile deal Making a demonstration with marauders instead of hydras wouldnt really hide that fact, and/or stop ppl from crying out that terran is imba  | ||
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Starfox
Austria699 Posts
In BW a units that reaches 0 hp still "lives" for one more frame, that with the fact that there is no random delay like in SC2 leads to massive overkill. The higher the unit count the harder the instant shot units rape the projectile ones. | ||
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