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I like how this thread is all about hydra vs marine because no one understands that the point of this thread is insta vs missile ONLY. You can't get anything else out of that video except that units that attack instantly have an advantage over units that fire a missile ASSUMING all units have the same health/DPS.
On March 07 2011 17:29 Zerker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 16:33 hmsrenown wrote: Please some mod edit the post to point out the hydra are marine stats. This proves next to nothing in the actual game...It's interesting in game mechanic anyhow, not relevant to actual playing Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 23:50 FortuneSyn wrote: 24 tweaked hydras vs 24 marines.
all hydra stats (collision size, hp, attack dmg and shot delays) were tweaked to match the marine. The only difference between the 2 in this video is that the hydra shoots a missile, the marine shoots instantly. Sometimes i wonder if people even read the OP before they reply. Sometimes I wonder if you've even read the OP. The guy you quoted is exactly right...
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On March 08 2011 02:31 Uhh Negative wrote:I like how this thread is all about hydra vs marine because no one understands that the point of this thread is insta vs missile ONLY. You can't get anything else out of that video except that units that attack instantly have an advantage over units that fire a missile ASSUMING all units have the same health/DPS. Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 17:29 Zerker wrote:On March 07 2011 16:33 hmsrenown wrote: Please some mod edit the post to point out the hydra are marine stats. This proves next to nothing in the actual game...It's interesting in game mechanic anyhow, not relevant to actual playing On March 06 2011 23:50 FortuneSyn wrote: 24 tweaked hydras vs 24 marines.
all hydra stats (collision size, hp, attack dmg and shot delays) were tweaked to match the marine. The only difference between the 2 in this video is that the hydra shoots a missile, the marine shoots instantly. Sometimes i wonder if people even read the OP before they reply. Sometimes I wonder if you've even read the OP. The guy you quoted is exactly right...
Except the guy you quoted is exactly right, since the original "please edit" post was posted after the OP was actually edited.
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Can you try the test again ..with the hydra's range increase slightly like +1.
I have a hunch , that because the marines shoot instant, their volley of fire..hits the hydra first. With Hydra's range increased..the hydra's volley hits the marines at the same time.
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It's quite obvious that missile attacks are greatly inferior to instant. The video is a nice way of showing just how much better instant is. Now if you put in a Raven in both instances to use a PDD, that would just show how much better instant fire really is.
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On March 06 2011 23:55 OFCORPSE wrote: That's sick. They were instant in BW right? why did they decide to shoot spines instead of that acid spit anyway.
Good luck with trying to avoid the balance discussion though
Hmmm not entirely sure but the lore of starcraft tells you that hydras actually shoot spines not acid, but broodwar didnt have enough graphic quality in order to do that
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Someone should make a thread about this on the bnet forums if there isn't one already
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I didn't catch if this was mentioned or not, but what about the size of these units, are they the same? Check if you get similar results if you put the hydra attack on a marine. Also towards the end not all of the marines are even firing
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Could you repeat this experiment with siege tanks against amove marines? Tanks using missiles. I am curious to see if there would be the same amount of overkill.
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On March 08 2011 05:45 T0fuuu wrote: Could you repeat this experiment with siege tanks against amove marines? Tanks using missiles. I am curious to see if there would be the same amount of overkill.
1) Tanks splash 2) Tanks shoot slower 3) Tanks have smart-AI which auto spreads shots 4) Tanks are armoured and have more armour
In siege mode anyway
I'd like to see marines removed of auto- non-overkill...
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Not to mention missile shots are affected by PDD. Out of curiosity, did instant attacks ever overkill in BW? Like marines/hydras? I know siege tanks only overkilled because it wasn't instant but had a half second delay, despite not actually having any missile.
On March 08 2011 05:51 ryan1894 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 05:45 T0fuuu wrote: Could you repeat this experiment with siege tanks against amove marines? Tanks using missiles. I am curious to see if there would be the same amount of overkill. 1) Tanks splash 2) Tanks shoot slower 3) Tanks have smart-AI which auto spreads shots 4) Tanks are armoured and have more armour In siege mode anyway I'd like to see marines removed of auto- non-overkill...
It's not smart AI, it's the same AI marines have and that all other instant attack units have.
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what's the point of this?
it seems like it's about as useful as comparing melee vs ranged attack.
Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot? why not?
it's not the only property that a unit has. it's not like units are created without a consideration for the difference.
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It's important to remember that missile shot can have advantages when it comes to duration effects. Currently this only really applies to the Marauder as far as I know, but the fact that different shells will hit the opponent at different time increases the likelihood of getting an immediate slow off once the first loses effect. Admittedly this is a niche case, but it's not hard to imagine other future abilities that may benefit.
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On March 08 2011 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote: It's important to remember that missile shot can have advantages when it comes to duration effects. Currently this only really applies to the Marauder as far as I know, but the fact that different shells will hit the opponent at different time increases the likelihood of getting an immediate slow off once the first loses effect. Admittedly this is a niche case, but it's not hard to imagine other future abilities that may benefit.
Can you elaborate why it benefits missile effects (that it increases the likelihood of getting an immediate slow off). I'm not necessarily doubting you, I just don't see it through your explanation.
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On March 08 2011 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote: It's important to remember that missile shot can have advantages when it comes to duration effects. Currently this only really applies to the Marauder as far as I know, but the fact that different shells will hit the opponent at different time increases the likelihood of getting an immediate slow off once the first loses effect. Admittedly this is a niche case, but it's not hard to imagine other future abilities that may benefit. Not making any sense. Be it an instant or delayed attack, the frequency of the attack remains the same, there is just an initial lag for the delayed attack, which delays the slow. I would even go as far as to say that lag is NOT desirable/favorable, due to units being able to change directions and run away unslowed for a small period of time before the shot hits.
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On March 08 2011 12:27 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote: It's important to remember that missile shot can have advantages when it comes to duration effects. Currently this only really applies to the Marauder as far as I know, but the fact that different shells will hit the opponent at different time increases the likelihood of getting an immediate slow off once the first loses effect. Admittedly this is a niche case, but it's not hard to imagine other future abilities that may benefit. Not making any sense. Be it an instant or delayed attack, the frequency of the attack remains the same, there is just an initial lag for the delayed attack, which delays the slow. I would even go as far as to say that lag is NOT desirable/favorable, due to units being able to change directions and run away unslowed for a small period of time before the shot hits.
Two Marauders are shooting a zealot that starts off in range. With instant attacks, each Marauder hits at the exact same time, and thus the slows completely overlap. With projectile attacks, each hit will be spaced out somewhat depending on the differences in the distance between each marauder and the zealot. The initial slow is delayed by the travel time of the projectile. However, since the hits are taking place at slightly different times, the slow from the second shot will still be in effect when the slow from the first hit wears off.
Note the this benefit will be most significant when the duration of the on hit effect is less than the refire time of the attacking unit.
However, if we have say, several zealots instead of one, the slowed zealot will lag behind its fellows and thus not be auto attacked by kiting marauders. In that case, having an extra bit of slow on one zealot while your guys start to attack another one isn't bad at all.
That being said, I think instant attacks would still be better. OTOH, projectile type does seem to play a role in overall unit design - the ability to protect tanks from marauders via PDD certainly appears to be an intentional feature.
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On March 08 2011 12:50 Victim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:27 Xapti wrote:On March 08 2011 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote: It's important to remember that missile shot can have advantages when it comes to duration effects. Currently this only really applies to the Marauder as far as I know, but the fact that different shells will hit the opponent at different time increases the likelihood of getting an immediate slow off once the first loses effect. Admittedly this is a niche case, but it's not hard to imagine other future abilities that may benefit. Not making any sense. Be it an instant or delayed attack, the frequency of the attack remains the same, there is just an initial lag for the delayed attack, which delays the slow. I would even go as far as to say that lag is NOT desirable/favorable, due to units being able to change directions and run away unslowed for a small period of time before the shot hits. Two Marauders are shooting a zealot that starts off in range. With instant attacks, each Marauder hits at the exact same time, and thus the slows completely overlap. With projectile attacks, each hit will be spaced out somewhat depending on the differences in the distance between each marauder and the zealot. The initial slow is delayed by the travel time of the projectile. However, since the hits are taking place at slightly different times, the slow from the second shot will still be in effect when the slow from the first hit wears off. Note the this benefit will be most significant when the duration of the on hit effect is less than the refire time of the attacking unit. However, if we have say, several zealots instead of one, the slowed zealot will lag behind its fellows and thus not be auto attacked by kiting marauders. In that case, having an extra bit of slow on one zealot while your guys start to attack another one isn't bad at all. That being said, I think instant attacks would still be better. OTOH, projectile type does seem to play a role in overall unit design - the ability to protect tanks from marauders via PDD certainly appears to be an intentional feature.
no if the attacks were instant each marauders still wouldn't attack at the same time because like you said: "each hit will be spaced out somewhat depending on the differences in the distance between each marauder and the zealot."
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On March 08 2011 05:51 ryan1894 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 05:45 T0fuuu wrote: Could you repeat this experiment with siege tanks against amove marines? Tanks using missiles. I am curious to see if there would be the same amount of overkill. 1) Tanks splash 2) Tanks shoot slower 3) Tanks have smart-AI which auto spreads shots 4) Tanks are armoured and have more armour In siege mode anyway I'd like to see marines removed of auto- non-overkill... You missed the point. Tanks are instant hit and dont have smart ai so they will not fire on units that are dead. We dont have anything in the game which is a missile and does a large amount of splash so i want to see what it looks like.
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On March 08 2011 14:25 T0fuuu wrote:
You missed the point. Tanks are instant hit and dont have smart ai so they will not fire on units that are dead. We dont have anything in the game which is a missile and does a large amount of splash so i want to see what it looks like.
thor anti air ?
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what's the point of this?
it seems like it's about as useful as comparing melee vs ranged attack.
Well, thats one way to look at it. And I would agree if they weren't both ranged.
The big point of this is: because a unit has a missile attack, it suddenly overkills, and in some situations that means a lot of wasted dps. So, instant attacks makes units distribute their fire very evenly between targets (I would go so far as to say very unrealistically even) when firing at huge groups of enemies. And since there is no stat on the units benefiting from this effect telling us, the players, its easy to miss when you compare units.
Now whether blizz is balancing for this or not, and which race benefits from it the least and most, they are different (but related) issues.
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