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insta vs. missile shot - Page 19

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 08 2011 11:17 GMT
#361
OMG. This is huge find. Instashot is worth +3 upgrades. It's like marines have 9 dps by default and get even more with upgrades. No wonder units which insta shoot like marines and tanks are so good. I wondered why sentries used to be a good fighting unit while having shitty stats, there it is.
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
March 08 2011 11:40 GMT
#362
On March 08 2011 17:43 freetgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2011 14:25 T0fuuu wrote:

You missed the point. Tanks are instant hit and dont have smart ai so they will not fire on units that are dead. We dont have anything in the game which is a missile and does a large amount of splash so i want to see what it looks like.


thor anti air ?

Thor splash cant really be compared to tank splash unless 20 marines can stack on top of each other.
Hittegods
Profile Joined April 2007
Stockholm4642 Posts
March 08 2011 12:29 GMT
#363
On March 08 2011 20:40 T0fuuu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2011 17:43 freetgy wrote:
On March 08 2011 14:25 T0fuuu wrote:

You missed the point. Tanks are instant hit and dont have smart ai so they will not fire on units that are dead. We dont have anything in the game which is a missile and does a large amount of splash so i want to see what it looks like.


thor anti air ?

Thor splash cant really be compared to tank splash unless 20 marines can stack on top of each other.

Seeker missiles?
This neo violence, pure self defiance
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
March 08 2011 12:46 GMT
#364
On March 08 2011 21:29 Hittegods wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2011 20:40 T0fuuu wrote:
On March 08 2011 17:43 freetgy wrote:
On March 08 2011 14:25 T0fuuu wrote:

You missed the point. Tanks are instant hit and dont have smart ai so they will not fire on units that are dead. We dont have anything in the game which is a missile and does a large amount of splash so i want to see what it looks like.


thor anti air ?

Thor splash cant really be compared to tank splash unless 20 marines can stack on top of each other.

Seeker missiles?

Yes.Comparing probably the slowest missile in the game to instant hit will really be a great way to demonstrate the difference in effeciency between the two ways of dealing damage.

Are you guys just arguing for semantics or is your only purpose in this thread to do 1 liners and contribute nothing to the discussion?

Anyways I am still keen to see what tanks do with a fast projectile speed compared to their instant hit.
yourhealer
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland1 Post
March 08 2011 13:17 GMT
#365
On March 07 2011 00:21 Crisium wrote:
^Spine hits marine.

The lack of overkill means that every marines shot hits (and does so instantly). While they are spines traveling in the air at a Marine, even enough to kill it, other Hydras will fire more spines and cause overkill. The problem is bigger than in SC1 because of smart targeting that prevents overkill.

Zerg:
Baneling
Infested Terran


does it apply to beanlings to? ive seen some video where terran drops 1 marine from mediv to blow up some beanlings they fly over, and i was quite sure like 5-6 explode from a single marine
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-08 13:22:50
March 08 2011 13:21 GMT
#366
On March 06 2011 23:58 Nis wrote:
I think the main reason why instant shots have such a huge adv over missile shots is the fact that the ai targeting for instant shots make it impossible for units with instant shots to do overkill, but thats not the case for missile shots.

Eg 2 hydra fires 1 after another at a marine with only 6 hp left leads to quite a significant dps loss


I feel this warrants repeating. Insta-shots simply can't be wasted in the same way that missile attacks can be.
You Got The Touch
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-08 13:43:32
March 08 2011 13:43 GMT
#367
If you want to confirm that it's actually overkill behind the results, give both units something like 1k hitpoints and make each attack do 1 damage, then go afk for a bit. in that scenario the damage lost to overkill will be almost insignificant so the results should be almost even.
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
March 18 2011 15:21 GMT
#368
Did anyone mention the animations already?
Hydralisk has the damagepoint(where the missile flies out of the hydra) not instant, whereas marines have the damagepoint first and then the animation.
This will add maybe 0.1 or 0.2 sec to the delay which is not on behalf of missile fly speed.

Compare for example stutter stepping for roaches and marines. Roaches wiull first do their little animation and only at the end the projectile will come out. You can cancel the animation roaches won´t attack, but you can´t do that with marines.

Just wanted to add this, I think it´s another puzzle piece to consider. Comes to mind, Thor ground attack has an animation, but is still instanthit. Same test with thors and hydralisks, the hydralisks would win by far, even though thor has instanthit.
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
March 18 2011 15:31 GMT
#369
On March 08 2011 22:17 yourhealer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 00:21 Crisium wrote:
^Spine hits marine.

The lack of overkill means that every marines shot hits (and does so instantly). While they are spines traveling in the air at a Marine, even enough to kill it, other Hydras will fire more spines and cause overkill. The problem is bigger than in SC1 because of smart targeting that prevents overkill.

Zerg:
Baneling
Infested Terran


does it apply to beanlings to? ive seen some video where terran drops 1 marine from mediv to blow up some beanlings they fly over, and i was quite sure like 5-6 explode from a single marine

That's because it takes more than 1 baneling to kill a marine
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
March 18 2011 15:34 GMT
#370
On March 19 2011 00:31 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2011 22:17 yourhealer wrote:
On March 07 2011 00:21 Crisium wrote:
^Spine hits marine.

The lack of overkill means that every marines shot hits (and does so instantly). While they are spines traveling in the air at a Marine, even enough to kill it, other Hydras will fire more spines and cause overkill. The problem is bigger than in SC1 because of smart targeting that prevents overkill.

Zerg:
Baneling
Infested Terran


does it apply to beanlings to? ive seen some video where terran drops 1 marine from mediv to blow up some beanlings they fly over, and i was quite sure like 5-6 explode from a single marine

That's because it takes more than 1 baneling to kill a marine


im 99% certain banelings work the same way as tanks, if you surround a command centre with banelings, then attack it, if they worked like a 'projectile' every baneling would die, this isnt the case; only enough to kill the command centre explode.
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
March 18 2011 15:37 GMT
#371
On March 19 2011 00:34 turdburgler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 00:31 Blasterion wrote:
On March 08 2011 22:17 yourhealer wrote:
On March 07 2011 00:21 Crisium wrote:
^Spine hits marine.

The lack of overkill means that every marines shot hits (and does so instantly). While they are spines traveling in the air at a Marine, even enough to kill it, other Hydras will fire more spines and cause overkill. The problem is bigger than in SC1 because of smart targeting that prevents overkill.

Zerg:
Baneling
Infested Terran


does it apply to beanlings to? ive seen some video where terran drops 1 marine from mediv to blow up some beanlings they fly over, and i was quite sure like 5-6 explode from a single marine

That's because it takes more than 1 baneling to kill a marine


im 99% certain banelings work the same way as tanks, if you surround a command centre with banelings, then attack it, if they worked like a 'projectile' every baneling would die, this isnt the case; only enough to kill the command centre explode.

That makes some sense, because the banelings will surround the command center, they will all dart towards it and begin blowing up until it dies since it is instant then the moment it is dead the remaining banes now target something else This is probably why banes are more cost effective than other zerg units.
FlashDave.999 aka Star
majestouch
Profile Joined December 2010
United States395 Posts
March 18 2011 15:42 GMT
#372
the problem with instashot IMO is that for noobs, it doesn't mean as much in straight up battles, yes it is stronger than missile shot due to the mechanics of how it works, however, for pros it puts a rather high skill ceiling so people with the apm and practiced timing can literally make marines exponentially better whether it be stutter step or splitting (foxer style).

now going offtopic regarding implications of stutter step micro:

as for marines in early game zvt, the 2rax (12/12 [this cuts OC]one not the standard 12/14) is slowly making a reappearance, which, the 12/12 one hits at a very critical timing regardless of the opening from a Z, and adding in the stutter step, the marines just do too much dps and have "too much mobility with firing"

so i would propose either making marines missile attack

OR

significantly reducing the acceleration of marines (to begin moving again after shooting) and significantly increasing the the deceleration of marines, to make the stutter step less effective because as in, vs slow lings its ridiculous.
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