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i just tested it right now, Marines don't even overkill when target firing.
this is huge, cause using marines you can always target fire, their firepower will distribute without wasting damage at all.
can be easily reproduced:
Take 2 drones and the right amount of units to deal enough damage to kill both.
Take 8 Stalker right click them near to the drones than target fire one drone -> result 1 drone dies other live (needs another attack cycle)
Take 7 Hydras right click them near to the drones than target fire -> result 1 drone dies other live (needs another attack cycle)
take 14 marines right click them near to the drones than target fire -> result both drones dies (within the first attack cycle)
so besides having the advantage while A-Moving, even Target Firing has an bigger advantage makes no wonder why marines are decimating economy so fast.
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People also seem to forget the fact that attacks using a projectile can also be stopped by the point defense drone.
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Well tbh they should just remove the smartfire, at least test it on the PTR. Marines were fine without it in BW
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On March 07 2011 07:00 Mephyss wrote:
I did a small test on map editor. changed marines, marauders and hydralisks stats to 50 damage (1 shot zerglings), 5 sec firerate (to check between hits easier) and 20 range (so they dont waste time moving to shoot).
I put 10 of them in a line with 10 burrowed zerglings and unburrowed ingame. On marine lane all 10 zerglings died on first shoot cycle. Hydras were taking 3 cycles to kill all zerglings (3 or 4 zerglings dying each cycle) and marauders were slowers with only 2 kills each cycle, 5 cycles to get all kills
This is a really interesting result. Why would the marauders kill less than the hydras? It would seem like the marauders and hydras should kill at exactly the same rate. If you still have this set up, is it possible to run a couple more iterations of the marauders and hydras?
The OP establishes a pretty large discrepancy between the effectiveness of instant vs missile shots and your test confirms it. However, your test also seems to show a discrepancy even within the performancy of missile shots for different units. Given the long delay and insta-kill damage, I can't imagine why this would be so...
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On March 07 2011 09:02 freetgy wrote:
i just tested it right now, Marines don't even overkill when target firing.
this is huge, cause using marines you can always target fire, their firepower will distribute without wasting damage at all.
can be easily reproduced:
Take 2 drones and the right amount of units to deal enough damage to kill both.
Take 8 Stalker right click them near to the drones than target fire one drone -> result 1 drone dies other live (needs another attack cycle)
Take 7 Hydras right click them near to the drones than target fire -> result 1 drone dies other live (needs another attack cycle)
take 14 marines right click them near to the drones than target fire -> result both drones dies (within the first attack cycle)
so besides having the advantage while A-Moving, even Target Firing has an bigger advantage makes no wonder why marines are decimating economy so fast.
the same happens with siege tanks, which is what made them so strong.
this video does a good job showing the difference between instashot and missile though for units like marines.
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Ok first off, if u pause with the Hydralisks, the hydralisks have 46 health hes obviously trolling TL...im sure hydras are over 100+...
User was warned for this post
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If you read the very first sentence of the post you will realize that the hydras have their stats changed to match marines. This isn't marines vs hydras, it's purely testing the difference of damage output caused by their attack animations. It's not that hard to pay attention and read the bolded sentence right above the video.
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Wow, mind = blown. Didn't know that missile attacks vs Instant attacks made that big of a difference. Really good find. I wonder if the balance team for starcraft 2 overlooked the fact of missile vs instant, Or at least they didn't know it was going make that big of a difference.
I wonder something though, say if the spine from the hyrda is in mid flight to it's target and the hyrda dies, Does the missile attack die with the hyrda or does the Missile attack finish because the missile was already launched. Logically i would say it does, but who knows how the game is actually made.
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On March 07 2011 09:20 supernovice007 wrote:
This is a really interesting result. Why would the marauders kill less than the hydras? It would seem like the marauders and hydras should kill at exactly the same rate. If you still have this set up, is it possible to run a couple more iterations of the marauders and hydras?
The OP establishes a pretty large discrepancy between the effectiveness of instant vs missile shots and your test confirms it. However, your test also seems to show a discrepancy even within the performancy of missile shots for different units. Given the long delay and insta-kill damage, I can't imagine why this would be so...
Different missile animations aren't necessarily moving at the same speed. It would make sense if faster projectiles were closer in performance to instant attacks. So if Hydra spines were faster in flight than marauder grenades, they would kill more efficiently.
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Thanks for the OP, which really shows the power of the auto-targeting AI. This thread has become, as Destiny would put it, a retard magnet Overlord. So many people are posting ridiculous comments that prove they did not read the OP. :D
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Please simulate phoenix vs BC with equal stats and post here and watch everyone go crazy
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On March 06 2011 23:58 Nis wrote:
I think the main reason why instant shots have such a huge adv over missile shots is the fact that the ai targeting for instant shots make it impossible for units with instant shots to do overkill, but thats not the case for missile shots.
Eg 2 hydra fires 1 after another at a marine with only 6 hp left leads to quite a significant dps loss
well said and just what I was thinking. That must be it, I can't think of any other reason. I just didn't know it made such a huge difference. Cool video, thanks.
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Well imagen the hydralisks with instant shooting at 100+ health..
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Wow. I knew projectiles were less effective, but not that much less effective. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but it is it possible to modify the projectile speed? I think it would be interesting to model the effect of changing the projectile speed on how efficient the hydralisks are.
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hmmmm that is interesting I sure hope blizz takes missles vs insta attack into account for balance, I'm sure they do, but the difference is so huge that is just incredible
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On March 07 2011 09:56 Gummy wrote:
Thanks for the OP, which really shows the power of the auto-targeting AI. This thread has become, as Destiny would put it, a retard magnet Overlord. So many people are posting ridiculous comments that prove they did not read the OP. :D
It would almost be worth re-making the thread and instead of hydra/marine just make both groups marines (or both hydras), but give one group a missile shot and one a hitscan. Then people wouldn't automatically start talking nonsense about marine vs hydra, and focus on what this thread is about (hitscan vs missile).
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On March 07 2011 10:22 Bio0rMech wrote:
Well imagen the hydralisks with instant shooting at 100+ health..
That's not the point. Slowly read what people said to you, please.
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On March 07 2011 10:23 gurrpp wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but it is it possible to modify the projectile speed? I think it would be interesting to model the effect of changing the projectile speed on how efficient the hydralisks are. It can be done in the editor. I think doing this to units like hydra and siege tank could be rather informative.
On March 06 2011 23:55 OFCORPSE wrote:
That's sick. They were instant in BW right? why did they decide to shoot spines instead of that acid spit anyway.
They wanted to shoot spines in sc1 too (well the description does say spines), there was just a technical limitation in sc1 supposedly. They wanted spines to be shot, but they used the splash because either the spine weren't visible or perhaps more-so it couldn't support fast-moving small sprites like that or something,
And yeah the reason why void rays and siege tanks and marines are so damn strong is because of their instant shots. the reason siege tanks don't overkill any more is because they removed the attack "projectile" delay that existed in brood war.
I think hydralisks should gain +2 damage per upgrade, because their damage is 12, and only +1 per attack sucks, especially when it's a projectile attack. Marines get +1 and they deal only HALF the damage (6), it's pretty ridiculous.
Marines also need their movement delay increased after attacking... it's so ridiculous how marines can move at like 95% of their speed while shooting. Combined with the fact that marines have an instant attack, this amplifies things even worse, because it makes for no auto kill while doing it.
I also don't know why the hell melee units like zerglings (and especially ultralisks) have such a long movement delay AND attack lag. Despite having a movement seed advantage over a worker, it takes ages and ages for a retreating drone to die to a zergling.
The ultralisk is even worse. I think they might have fixed this specific issue, but I know at one point ultralisks could not deal damage to a fleeing spore/spine crawler off-creep when auto attacking, because the crawler would get away before the attack animation completes, even though ultralisk had a huge movement speed advantage.
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Blizzard definitely knows about this. They take into account the "overkill" damage of projectile units when balancing units. It's ok for most units to overkill. It makes units like Terran infantry/tanks unique. Also, instant attacks aren't affected by PDDs.
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EPT
