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On March 07 2011 00:33 Sek-Kuar wrote:No no no, that cant be truth. 80 HP, 12 attack vs 45 HP, 6 attack when both have same attack speed - hydras must win always. This results shows that efficienty of missile attack is about 25% of theoretical maximum. I dont believe that. Will have to test it myself. PS: Hydras with 0/1/2 attack have same shoots2kill against marines 
read the fucking op or watch the video wtf
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Koreans have known this for a long time and been QQ'ing about it. I for one cannot understand how Tank shots can be instant, even in a "game".
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yeah that's the benefit of hitscan. i really don't know why they decided to make hitscan attacks and only give them to one race. as hitscan is always going to be more efficient than projectiles.
i'm not really complaining about that since my race does have those baneling and infestor things that tend to be very handy against marines, but i do think that they should have had some more consistency in their unit design. i think that everything should have been a projectile. speed of the projectile can vary of course, but everything should be a projectile to allow for some wasted fire, and i've thought this for a long time.
back in the days when one siege tank could kill an entire zerg 200/200 army, i suggested that tank shots be made a fast moving projectile. this would, in effect, make them less effective at maximum range, and become more effective the closer the opposing army got. that way an opposing army could actually approach them, but they could still hold their own once the army got within fighting range.
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the main difference is that in this example the marine's first round of attacks occurs before the hydralisk attack lands, ergo hydralisk will die first and the side will less units will inevitably have lower dps. the overkill is negligable because the shot animation is a fraction of a second.
the regular hydralisk is weak against marines because of the ineffective dps concave due to having a larger collision radius. they're still suped-up marines, and should get the first volley of shots due to the range upgrade.
personally i think the best way to 'balance' marines would be to increase collision radius. it's not really logical when you see at a big swarm of marines... how they're meant to effectively target and shoot an enemy in the sardine formation is beyond me... they make the spartan formation look like the great victoria desert.
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This is weird because I just did like 10+ tests of 24 hydra vs 24 marines and hydra always win by a large margin. And even when I testes 48 marines vs 24 hydra, hydra can still kills half of the marines before dying. I don't really understand how 24 hydra can lose to 24 marines.
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On March 07 2011 00:37 canikizu wrote:
This is weird because I just did like 10+ tests of 24 hydra vs 24 marines and hydra always win by a large margin. And even when I testes 48 marines vs 24 hydra, hydra can still kills half of the marines before dying. I don't really understand how 24 hydra can lose to 24 marines.
This test is not marine v hydra. Rather marine with instant hits v marine with missile attack. Marine with missile attack happen to wear hydra outfit. You wasted your time.
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On March 07 2011 00:34 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:26 Mailing wrote:
Yeah. This is because say you have 10 hydra and 10 marines
A marine will have 5 hp, and a hydra does 5 damage.
But since hydra fire missiles without smart fire, like 3-4 hydra might try to fire on that marine at the same time, meaning 3/4 of their damage for that attack timing is wasted.
If a hydra is at 5 hp, the game will only allow a single marine to fire at that instance, and instantly tell the other 3 marines to shoot other targets.
It's a super big part of siege tank fire Are you guys sure about Hydra not having smart fire? I really doubt it to be honest , I thought no units in Sc2 can overkill. There is an easy way to test this if anyone is volunteered. Put 10 hydras one side , grouped. 2 marines to other side , one is very close to hydras and other is a littler far but also in range of all hydras. Start combat and let hydras only shoot once , if 2nd marine is undamaged , then yes damage system doesnt works as I thought and hydras overkill. hugman - As I said , I thought AI doesnt attack a unit if delayed damage is higher than units current hp. Are you really sure that is wrong? Just to be clear , I'm not claiming anything , just asking
Try to test it with vikings, and it will be pretty clear that at least some units can overkill.
It would explain why can vikings kill vrs in small numbers, but in big numbers keeping same ratio they lose.
I dont know about hydras... I just wanted to point out that this defnitelly exists.
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canikizu - It's not really a hydra vs marine thing , its projectile vs instant damage comparison. Think like , marine with projectile vs marine with instant damage. Or simply read OP more carefully
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On March 07 2011 00:37 canikizu wrote:
This is weird because I just did like 10+ tests of 24 hydra vs 24 marines and hydra always win by a large margin. And even when I testes 48 marines vs 24 hydra, hydra can still kills half of the marines before dying. I don't really understand how 24 hydra can lose to 24 marines.
Of course 24 hydra are going to beat 24 marine, he tweaked the stats so they have the same hp/dps
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On March 07 2011 00:33 Sek-Kuar wrote:No no no, that cant be truth. 80 HP, 12 attack vs 45 HP, 6 attack when both have same attack speed - hydras must win always. This results shows that efficienty of missile attack is about 25% of theoretical maximum. I dont believe that. Will have to test it myself. PS: Hydras with 0/1/2 attack have same shoots2kill against marines
Read the OP again and slap yourself in the face
Hydras in the video have the same stats as marines, the only difference is that one side has instantly hitting attack and the other fires projectiles, that is all. Are people lazy to read or just thick ?
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lol the zerg qq'rs who didnt even read op and already fill this topic with imba bulcrap
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Void rays and interceptors have instant smart fire.
Marines, reapers, ghosts, siege tanks, auto turrets, PF have instant smart fire
Banelings too.
Terran just happens to have way more units that instant fire and never overkill 
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The thread title reads insta shot vs missile shot - you dont even have to read the op to know that its not marine vs hydra >.>
I would have never thought that it would matter THAT much. I hope for a redesign in HotS of many of the units. We can't expect them to do anything like that earlier.
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On March 07 2011 00:37 canikizu wrote:
This is weird because I just did like 10+ tests of 24 hydra vs 24 marines and hydra always win by a large margin. And even when I testes 48 marines vs 24 hydra, hydra can still kills half of the marines before dying. I don't really understand how 24 hydra can lose to 24 marines.
Did you read the orignial post where he said that he made marines and hydras identical and only difference is the marines or intant hit and the hydras are projectiles.
That is why he marines win. Since they instant shoot.
Edit: Wow I'm the 4th person to make notice of this in the time I quoted... lol
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Banes smart fire?
If you surround a marine with 3 banelings, and right click on the marine, do only 2 explode?
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On March 07 2011 00:40 Tiax;mous wrote:canikizu - It's not really a hydra vs marine thing , its projectile vs instant damage comparison. Think like , marine with projectile vs marine with instant damage. Or simply read OP more carefully
If it's projectile vs instant damage, then it's obvious that instant damage is superior than projectile because of the wasted attacks. It's been like that since BW, or WC3. In BW, hydra has always spit, marines, tank always do instant damage.
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On March 07 2011 00:41 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:33 Sek-Kuar wrote:No no no, that cant be truth. 80 HP, 12 attack vs 45 HP, 6 attack when both have same attack speed - hydras must win always. This results shows that efficienty of missile attack is about 25% of theoretical maximum. I dont believe that. Will have to test it myself. PS: Hydras with 0/1/2 attack have same shoots2kill against marines Read the OP again and slap yourself in the face Hydras in the video have the same stats as marines, the only difference is that one side has instantly hitting attack and the other fires projectiles, that is all. Are people lazy to read or just thick ?
Okay I can see it now. Well then I can believe it
PS: nemusíš být tak agresivní ^^
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On March 07 2011 00:43 Mailing wrote:
Banes smart fire?
If you surround a marine with 3 banelings, and right click on the marine, do only 2 explode?
There is no such thing as smart fire. It is an emmerging effect of units having microsecond delays between firing. A group of 24 marines will never fire exactly at the same time. There will be micro seconds between each single shots. This allows the units to die and the marines to get new targets which have not yet died. Units with a shooting projectile like hydralisks will just fire at the same unit dispite the delay, (since it has not yet died). This gives a feeling of smart fire while it is just the result of very unnoticable delays between units.
This delay was added to increase preformance since it would get very CPU heavy if 50 marines try to shoot in the exact same frame.
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There is no such thing as smart fire. It is an emmerging effect of units having microsecond delays between firing.
they shoot, they dont overkill. We call that smart fire, thus there is such a thing as smart fire.
If you surround a marine with 3 banelings, and right click on the marine, do only 2 explode?
Aye, banelings are the only zerg uit that never overkills.
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EPT
