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On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire .
YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot.
Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all.
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wow, I had no idea this made any difference, let alone this dramatic. Consider my mind boggled. :O
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On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all.
He is right Slunk , try that with viking instead of tanks and you'll see.
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ive noticed this tvt, i actually end up getting owned when i try to manually target marines with other marines (say I have 3 marines he has 2 marines ive actually lost trying to manually target rofl, its like by doing that I actually miss a round of shots or something)
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Wow i wonder if overkill had much to do with it. Crazy to see how much of a difference there is between instant and missile shots
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On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all.
You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord.
BOTH are in siege mode.
You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why.
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On March 07 2011 00:21 Crisium wrote:
^Spine hits marine.
The lack of overkill means that every marines shot hits (and does so instantly). While they are spines traveling in the air at a Marine, even enough to kill it, other Hydras will fire more spines and cause overkill. The problem is bigger than in SC1 because of smart targeting that prevents overkill.
Terran have:
Marines
Reaper
Ghost
Tank (unseiged)
Tank (seiged)
Thor GtG
Autoturret
Planetary Fortress
Protoss:
Immortal
(I think Sentry and Archon have delay, someone else confirm)
Zerg:
Infested Terran
Dude....there's no real problem. Are you trying to say Terran is Imba because they have a lot of instant shot units? Because that would be as dumb as the other 50 billion lame accusations.
Besides the Marauder has a missile shot and people still consider that unit broken and the Hydralisk does more DPS than the Marauder and hits Air.
Join the many Zergs who have actually been making fantastic use of the Hydralisk in TvZ on the new ladder maps.
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On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why.
The thing you don't understand is that computers actually can't do 2 things at the exactly the same time. You just think they do because they do 2 things very fast so it looks like they're doing both of them at the same time. This happens with everything in your computer, including the firing of siege tanks. There will be some arbitrary order in which the units fire, and the units that fire later will not target a dead unit.
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This is an interesting find imagine marines without insta shot tho o.0
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On March 07 2011 01:28 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. The thing you don't understand is that computers actually can't do 2 things at the exactly the same time. You just think they do because they do 2 things very fast so it looks like they're doing both of them at the same time. This happens with everything in your computer, including the firing of siege tanks. There will be some arbitrary order in which the units fire, and the units that fire later will not target a dead unit.
That "Arbitrary order" is the definition of what smart fire is for siege tanks.
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nice idea. Is this idea related at all to fungal growth change in 1.3?
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On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why.
Because the sc2 engine works like this:
- take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot!
- take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot!
- take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot!
...
in sc:bw it was like:
- take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? save answer
- take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? save answer
- take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? save answer
...
- every unit having an enemy unit in range: shoot!
And whats the point of asking me which tank is going to shot first? I dont know, i didnt write the engine. Maybe every unit gets an integer once they are build, and the engine goes thrue those numbers every tick, maybe its the closest one, or whatever.
I mean, its the same with every instant shoot unit. Drop a 1 hp marauder in range of 2 immortals. Only one will shoot. Smart fire? No! Its just how the engine works. By the time the engine works with the 2nd immortal, they is no marauder anymore.
Oh, here is the original dustin bowder post:
+ Show Spoiler +DustinB: Yeah, I have the same feeling. But the numbers don't support that. ZvT is almost 50/50 win/loss right now. We are studying the issue and trying to figure out if we should make a move and what that move should be. Also the Siege Tanks do not smart target. It's just the way the code works. To help with perfomance, units do not fire all at once. There is a tiny offset between different units firing their weapons. From the users perspective it is almost simultaenous, but the shots are actually 1/8-1/16th of a second apart. Since units cannot target units that are already dead and since Siege Tanks hit their targets instantly, this creates the situation you are describing, where Siege Tanks waste fewer shots.
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The engine is linear and processes everything in order. After a unit dies, it's no longer a valid target and the remaining attacks to be processed take that into account.
There is no actual delay between units firing, the ones that attack, do so in the same game frame(the game mechanics run at 16 frames per "game" second).
The main difference is the overkill, because units acquire the closest target(a few units like the BC for example acquire based on angle) and usually the closest target is the same unit for a big part of your army. This is easiest to notice with vikings.
The example in the video is also obviously flawed and tilted in favor of marines. Nobody just walks right next to the enemy and then attacks for the first time. If the units are attack moved the difference is smaller, but still significant.
If Blizzard wants to equalize this then they could implement an actual smart fire for all units.
Alternatively they could make all units overkill, but this will just highlight how ineffective it is for all units to just acquire the closest target.
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On March 07 2011 01:29 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
There isn't any point to this video because hydras weren't intentionally supposed to be cost efficient against marines. duh. try 20 banelings vs 20 marines then how about that? psh
The point of the video is that Marines are way more cost effective than Hydras and the reason for that is not just the obvious (better stats for less cash) but also because of instant attacks versus projectiles.
I do think that the Hydras vs Marine comparison shows a flaw in the balance of the game. There are similar unbalances between units - Roachs vs Stalkers for example - but in that and other cases there are still reasons why the Stalkers are viable even if Protoss could produce Roaches. Blink, the ability to attack air and much longer attack range. Hydras are simply inferior to Marines in every way you can imagine and by a HUGE margin. They have no situational power where they outperform Marines.
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On March 07 2011 01:32 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:28 AssuredVacancy wrote:On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. The thing you don't understand is that computers actually can't do 2 things at the exactly the same time. You just think they do because they do 2 things very fast so it looks like they're doing both of them at the same time. This happens with everything in your computer, including the firing of siege tanks. There will be some arbitrary order in which the units fire, and the units that fire later will not target a dead unit. That "Arbitrary order" is the definition of what smart fire is for siege tanks.
No the arbitrary order is not anything special, if I had to guess it's probably just a loop that goes through the units and assigning targets to them. There's nothing 'smart' about it.
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You know I just thought of something... to better represent Instafire vs Missile attack, use statistically equal STALKERS, I'm pretty sure they'd lose even WITH +3 weapons, hahahaha
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As far as I'm concerned, having a missile attack balances out certain units (like the Hydra and the Marauder) and is taken into concern as a balancing issue. It's not like some units were arbitrarily given missile attacks and others instant.
The overkill issue, as far as I'm concerned, can eventually be managed with micro. In SC1 we had people microing individual tanks to make sure they weren't overkilling, and the same is possible for small groups of hydras. We already have marine splitting, what's to say that selecting a slice of hydras and alternating their attacks between high-value targets is out of reach once people get more used to the game and mechanically advanced?
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On March 07 2011 01:29 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
This is an interesting find imagine marines without insta shot tho o.0
A balanced Starcraft?
I would like to see a mod that gives marines a projectile and have some pros play regular games on it, to see how big of a difference it makes, though.
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On March 06 2011 23:55 OFCORPSE wrote:
That's sick. They were instant in BW right? why did they decide to shoot spines instead of that acid spit anyway.
Good luck with trying to avoid the balance discussion though
Actually their attack in BW was still the needle spines (same as SC2). It's just that Blizzard decided to add a projectile for them in SC2.
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On March 07 2011 01:34 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. Because the sc2 engine works like this: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! ... in sc:bw it was like: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? save answer ... - every unit having an enemy unit in range: shoot! And whats the point of asking me which tank is going to shot first? I dont know, i didnt write the engine. Maybe every unit gets an integer once they are build, and the engine goes thrue those numbers every tick, maybe its the closest one, or whatever. I mean, its the same with every instant shoot unit. Drop a 1 hp marauder in range of 2 immortals. Only one will shoot. Smart fire? No! Its just how the engine works. By the time the engine works with the 2nd immortal, they is no marauder anymore. Oh, here is the original dustin bowder post: + Show Spoiler +DustinB: Yeah, I have the same feeling. But the numbers don't support that. ZvT is almost 50/50 win/loss right now. We are studying the issue and trying to figure out if we should make a move and what that move should be. Also the Siege Tanks do not smart target. It's just the way the code works. To help with perfomance, units do not fire all at once. There is a tiny offset between different units firing their weapons. From the users perspective it is almost simultaenous, but the shots are actually 1/8-1/16th of a second apart. Since units cannot target units that are already dead and since Siege Tanks hit their targets instantly, this creates the situation you are describing, where Siege Tanks waste fewer shots.
Well there you have it. In the end it doesn't matter what the reasoning for the occurence of smartfire is. It is a fact that units with missile do overkill targets while instant shooting units do not.
In BW both did overkill. Not overkilling units is smartfire and makes for better effective DPS.
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EPT
