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On March 07 2011 00:03 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote:
That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference? overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks. while it does look like the marines all shot at the exact same time, they actualy shoot with miniscule delays to each other, since there damage is instand and a marine kills the target the next will not "waste" his damage on a allready dead target. the hydras do not have that, there attack is a missile and you can fire 50 Missiles that each do 1 million damage on a target that has 1 hp left, the first will kill it, the rest will evaporate. it is also one of the main reasons that stalkers perform sub-par.
Actually there is no wasted damage in this case , you know all the stats are same expect damage type . The difference is total attack time for all marines are much higher than total attack time for hydras as marines can keep doing damage while hydra projectile travel.
For a better example , imagine both having 20 range and attacking each other at maximum range. Marines will be much much powerful as projectile travel time is higher.
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On March 07 2011 00:08 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:03 PulseSUI wrote:On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote:
That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference? overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks. while it does look like the marines all shot at the exact same time, they actualy shoot with miniscule delays to each other, since there damage is instand and a marine kills the target the next will not "waste" his damage on a allready dead target. the hydras do not have that, there attack is a missile and you can fire 50 Missiles that each do 1 million damage on a target that has 1 hp left, the first will kill it, the rest will evaporate. it is also one of the main reasons that stalkers perform sub-par. Actually there is no wasted damage in this case , you know all the stats are same expect damage type . The difference is total attack time for all marines are much higher than total attack time for hydras as marines can keep doing damage while hydra projectile travel. For a better example , imagine both having 20 range and attacking each other at maximum range. Marines will be much much powerful as projectile travel time is higher.
No, you're wrong, he's right.
The actual flight time of the missile doesn't affect DPS in a long fight, as it only adds the flight time of the first missile to the overall time of the fight. The attack delay is from when a missile is fired, not from when a missile hits. It DOES end up affecting DPS because of overkill.
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On March 07 2011 00:10 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:08 Tiax;mous wrote:On March 07 2011 00:03 PulseSUI wrote:On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote:
That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference? overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks. while it does look like the marines all shot at the exact same time, they actualy shoot with miniscule delays to each other, since there damage is instand and a marine kills the target the next will not "waste" his damage on a allready dead target. the hydras do not have that, there attack is a missile and you can fire 50 Missiles that each do 1 million damage on a target that has 1 hp left, the first will kill it, the rest will evaporate. it is also one of the main reasons that stalkers perform sub-par. Actually there is no wasted damage in this case , you know all the stats are same expect damage type . The difference is total attack time for all marines are much higher than total attack time for hydras as marines can keep doing damage while hydra projectile travel. For a better example , imagine both having 20 range and attacking each other at maximum range. Marines will be much much powerful as projectile travel time is higher. No, you're wrong, he's right. The actual flight time of the missile doesn't affect DPS in a long fight, as it only adds the flight time of the first missile to the overall time of the fight. The attack delay is from when a missile is fired, not from when a missile hits. It DOES end up affecting DPS because of overkill.
I didn't said flight time effects dps , I said marine damage applied instantly while hydra damage is delayed , so in this delay , marine keeps doing damage to other stuff.
Extreme examples should make it easy ; lets say 1 hydra vs 1 marine ; both has 1 HP and both gonna shoot 1 seconds later. Also both attack every 0.25 seconds after that. Right after 1 second , Hydra will die instantly ; but marine will die at 1.5s ( travel time ) which gives him 2 extra shots. ( 0.5 / 0.25 )
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i dont really get the point of this thread.
Isnt it totally natural and normal that instant-shoot units win?
In the moment were the Hydralisks do dmg there are already some of them dead obviously.
So in 2nd shot there are already more marines.
This continues to get exponentially worse for hydralisks.
And now add even the "overkill prevention" in sc2 to this.
Every sane person should expect this result.
No real surprise here....
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I have a question
Hydra shoots spine.
Hydra dies before spine hits marine
Spine hits marine or spine evaporates?
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On March 07 2011 00:15 gogogadgetflow wrote:
I have a question
Hydra shoots spine.
Hydra dies before spine hits marine
Spine hits marine or spine evaporates?
A stalker beamthingy will still hit it's target after the stalker dies, I'd assume the same was true of the hydra spine.
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On March 06 2011 23:55 OFCORPSE wrote:
That's sick. They were instant in BW right? why did they decide to shoot spines instead of that acid spit anyway.
Good luck with trying to avoid the balance discussion though
not really contributing to the topic per se, but they always fired spines. they were just invisible in brood war. the green slime wasn't actually the attack projectile, it was, spine lubricant or something i guess.
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^Spine hits marine.
The lack of overkill means that every marines shot hits (and does so instantly). While they are spines traveling in the air at a Marine, even enough to kill it, other Hydras will fire more spines and cause overkill. The problem is bigger than in SC1 because of smart targeting that prevents overkill.
Terran have:
Marines
Reaper
Ghost
Tank (unseiged)
Tank (seiged)
Thor GtG
Autoturret
Planetary Fortress
Protoss:
Immortal
(I think Sentry and Archon have delay, someone else confirm)
Zerg:
Baneling
Infested Terran
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I always knew the way marines distribute their damage is one of their greatest strengths. How much of a difference it actually makes surprises me though. Can you imagine how much it would change balance if tank shots were a projectile and they would start overkilling like in Broodwar?
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I don't see any real reason why hydras don't have their acid spit insta attack like BW.
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Hydras are terrible; is this a surprise to anyone? They're basically cost-ineffective, slow, expensive marines.
And yes, they have more DPS than a marine, but two marines > one hydra and those two marines cost less, use no gas, and don't rely on larva.
User was warned for this post
Edit: I understand the post wasn't specific to hydras, but because hydras follow this attack pattern without the armor and cheapness of roaches (who also use missile attacks), I thought it was pertinent to talk about hydras themselves. I guess not.
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Yeah. This is because say you have 10 hydra and 10 marines
A marine will have 5 hp, and a hydra does 5 damage.
But since hydra fire missiles without smart fire, like 3-4 hydra might try to fire on that marine at the same time, meaning 3/4 of their damage for that attack timing is wasted.
If a hydra is at 5 hp, the game will only allow a single marine to fire at that instance, and instantly tell the other 3 marines to shoot other targets.
It's a super big part of siege tank fire
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On March 07 2011 00:24 mikell wrote:
I don't see any real reason why hydras don't have their acid spit insta attack like BW.
Balancing, perhaps. They were ridiculously powerful at 90hp and .75 delay. At 80hp and .83 delay they are still good against Protoss. Without overkill they would destroy Gateway units.
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The hydralisks probably decided that creating holes in their enemies were more of a torture than melting them down with acid. Then again, shouldn't the spines from a hydralisk be instant shot as well? They seem to travel as fast as a bullet, except on scale.
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On March 06 2011 23:56 Zalias wrote:
Not bad video, ofcourse it allmost never happens that hidra will fight like that vs marines ( no1 will even make those in zvt). But i always thought that marine is a bit too much cost-effective...
Please realise that hydras DO beat marines, because they dont deal the same dmg as in the video. The video is to demonstrate the power of instant vs missle attacks. Its not for the casual zerg do start another QQ imba thread.
The video shows two equal units with 100% equal stats, but one of them has a missle, the other one an instant atack. It coincedently just happens to be a marine and a hydra graphic modell. Immortal (without shields and stuff) vs marauder would be the same. Maybe even worse, cause the marauders missle are much slower than the hydras.
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On March 07 2011 00:13 Tiax;mous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:10 hugman wrote:On March 07 2011 00:08 Tiax;mous wrote:On March 07 2011 00:03 PulseSUI wrote:On March 06 2011 23:55 TangyChicken wrote:
That blows my mind. Why in the world does it make such a big difference? overdamage also know as wasted DPS. the hydras, that have the exact same stats as marines in this video, do overdamage, loosing up to 30% of there potential damage. the Marines, wich have instand shots, do not do this, it is also know as "Smart-Fire" and is also in place with siege tanks. while it does look like the marines all shot at the exact same time, they actualy shoot with miniscule delays to each other, since there damage is instand and a marine kills the target the next will not "waste" his damage on a allready dead target. the hydras do not have that, there attack is a missile and you can fire 50 Missiles that each do 1 million damage on a target that has 1 hp left, the first will kill it, the rest will evaporate. it is also one of the main reasons that stalkers perform sub-par. Actually there is no wasted damage in this case , you know all the stats are same expect damage type . The difference is total attack time for all marines are much higher than total attack time for hydras as marines can keep doing damage while hydra projectile travel. For a better example , imagine both having 20 range and attacking each other at maximum range. Marines will be much much powerful as projectile travel time is higher. No, you're wrong, he's right. The actual flight time of the missile doesn't affect DPS in a long fight, as it only adds the flight time of the first missile to the overall time of the fight. The attack delay is from when a missile is fired, not from when a missile hits. It DOES end up affecting DPS because of overkill. I didn't said flight time effects dps , I said marine damage applied instantly while hydra damage is delayed , so in this delay , marine keeps doing damage to other stuff. Extreme examples should make it easy ; lets say 1 hydra vs 1 marine ; both has 1 HP and both gonna shoot 1 seconds later. Also both attack every 0.25 seconds after that. Right after 1 second , Hydra will die instantly ; but marine will die at 1.5s ( travel time ) which gives him 2 extra shots. ( 0.5 / 0.25 )
You haven't thought it through properly. First of all, your example is bad because the flight time is longer than attack cooldown which introduces an overkill in 1vs1 fights that doesn't actually exist in game. Secondly, it's true that the first marine will die at 1.5s but the SECOND marine would die at 2.5s. The missile flight time is an OFFSET not a delay that stacks with each attack. There is, however, an overkill effect resulting from there being multiple hydras shooting the same target. THAT is what's behind the results.
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No no no, that cant be truth.
80 HP, 12 attack vs 45 HP, 6 attack when both have same attack speed - hydras must win always.
This results shows that efficienty of missile attack is about 25% of theoretical maximum. I dont believe that. Will have to test it myself.
PS: Hydras with 0/1/2 attack have same shoots2kill against marines 
User was warned for this post
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On March 07 2011 00:26 Mailing wrote:
Yeah. This is because say you have 10 hydra and 10 marines
A marine will have 5 hp, and a hydra does 5 damage.
But since hydra fire missiles without smart fire, like 3-4 hydra might try to fire on that marine at the same time, meaning 3/4 of their damage for that attack timing is wasted.
If a hydra is at 5 hp, the game will only allow a single marine to fire at that instance, and instantly tell the other 3 marines to shoot other targets.
It's a super big part of siege tank fire
Are you guys sure about Hydra not having smart fire? I really doubt it to be honest , I thought no units in Sc2 can overkill.
There is an easy way to test this if anyone is volunteered. Put 10 hydras one side , grouped. 2 marines to other side , one is very close to hydras and other is a littler far but also in range of all hydras. Start combat and let hydras only shoot once , if 2nd marine is undamaged , then yes damage system doesnt works as I thought and hydras overkill.
hugman - As I said , I thought AI doesnt attack a unit if delayed damage is higher than units current hp. Are you really sure that is wrong? Just to be clear , I'm not claiming anything , just asking
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Get close to marines with hydras and use melee attack instead? ...  (ofc this is less than optimal but something to consider)
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Blizzard is so bad at balancing the hydra. This unit is so fragile and one-dimensional that is easily countered by 80% of Terran's army. And does too well of a job against gateway units until colossus comes out. Honestly, they just deal too much damage against certain units and have too little HP to deal with other units. And more often times than not, there are units that abuse the fact that Hydras have very little HP and thus Hydras aren't seen as often.
Though to be fair, Hydras were generally mediocre against Terran in SC1 anyways. Marines and tanks were still super effective against hydras, though the pathing + instant shots from Hydras didn't make it nearly this bad in SC2, and Hydras did decent against Terran mech in SC1 whereas that's not even close to SC2. In fact, it's hard to find any Terran standard army composition that doesn't do well against hydras in SC2.
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EPT
