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On March 07 2011 03:27 ch4ppi wrote:
Im pretty sure it doesnt have to do much with missile vs. not missile, since the marines has "missile" attacks, they can overkill, too
The reason why Hydra loose so bad is because they overkill very much. due to their slower attack speed.
For example take a target with 23 HP (completly made up scenario)
Marine dmg: 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 24 HP dmg done, with an overkill of 1.
Hydra dmg: 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 28 HP dmg done, with an overkill of 5.
So the Hydra lost 5 dmg, due to its higher dmg resulting in an overkill.
Now think about that scenario with 3 Marines/Hydras shooting simultaniously on a target with 3 HP.
Hydra would overkill for 18(!) HP, while marines would only do overkill for 9. Thats a huge difference.
So in conclusion u have to say the quicker attackspeed and the quicker traveltime of the marines give them the advantage, because they switch targets more efficient.
I want to emphazise again Marines dont have instant attack like tanks. If u run away from 10x3HP lings u will not just shoot 10 times, because the AI will focus down the nearest target first and overkill it very hard, even with marines.
The only conlcusion people can draw from your post: You didnt read the OP or you did read it but didnt understand what you have read. Which one is it?
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Jesus people need to learn to read English in this thread. READ THE DAMN OP BEFORE POSTING YOUR RETARDED OFFTOPIC COMMENTS
On Topic: I believe Blizzard knows the difference between missile vs non-missile (instant) attack animations. If it is actually a bug, it should be posted on Blizz forums.
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Guys, this is an interesting video, but you can't look at this and say hydras are underpowered/marines are overpowered. The hydra and marine are different units. They are also balanced differently. A hydra may have missile attacks, but they have higher damage to compensate.
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On March 07 2011 02:00 Sensator wrote:
I'm fine with the Hydra shot delay, I just want Hydras to be buffed (slightly). I dunno how, movement speed or something like that.
oh my god please read
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lol, it's in bold text right at the top of the OP and 50% of the people replying still didn't read it
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On March 07 2011 03:05 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm not sure why this argument exists
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(1) Isn't it obvious that if everything is the same except instant shot and projectile that the projectile would perform worse? How is this even remotely surprising or revealing?
(2) Why are people comparing marines to hydras? That is not what the video is about, at all.
(3) There are plenty of other stats and balancing attributes that were taken into consideration when deciding which units to have instant hit or projectile.
(4) Doesn't the smart fire system have a short delay before every single attack command regardless of whether or not it is instant shot or projectile? Unless you are target firing, an a+moved force should not overkill regardless of instant shot or projectile. I could be wrong about this, but that is my understanding.
(4.a) If a Stalker laser is traveling through the air, and it is going to kill its target, that target is no longer eligible to receive an automatic attack command but can receive a manual attack command. I'm pretty sure about this, but could be wrong.
I don't know. This argument seems pointless and will do nothing but create a thread of devolving QQing about mechanics that are not fully understood.
^ Did anyone see this?
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Instant and Missile shots are fair. Blizzard doesn't just assign numbers and say "X has Y dps and Z has Y dps, it's balanced." If a unit is clearly too weak/strong Blizzard will change it. The game will be balanced even if different units have different efficiency.
The only difference is that it makes focus fire micro with instant units more effective, because they don't overkill.
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lol
ive tried this by myself in the editor
when you equalize the stats for any ranged projectile unit to that of the marine's, the marines mysteriously end up winning...
its because instant shots dont overkill whereas projectiles do
this makes units like the marine and reaper very, very powerful (more so than they are intended to be)
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I would agree with the post a couple above me, Blizzard obviously (hopefully???) knew the difference an insta and a missile shot.
Maybe they just wanted to keep to real physics, but I think that there is some ulterior motive behind this.
I can't really think of any insta-shot units other than marines, so maybe they just felt that Terran needed some sort of insta-shot to compete with the melee attacks (I can see the comparison) of the base units, but don't read that as a balance comment. What would be interesting to see is how making marines missile shot would change them in the same sort of situation, and then maybe some results and conclusions can be drawn.
EDIT: Doesn't the reaper have a missile attack?
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The only reason the Marines come out so far ahead is because instant shots prevent overkill. With better Micro and the units not in ridiculous melee range which almost never would happen marine vs marine anyways the results are a lot closer than what the video would like you to believe.
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On March 07 2011 01:32 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:28 AssuredVacancy wrote:On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. The thing you don't understand is that computers actually can't do 2 things at the exactly the same time. You just think they do because they do 2 things very fast so it looks like they're doing both of them at the same time. This happens with everything in your computer, including the firing of siege tanks. There will be some arbitrary order in which the units fire, and the units that fire later will not target a dead unit. That "Arbitrary order" is the definition of what smart fire is for siege tanks.
There is no smart fire. Dustin Browder explained this previously. Tank shots are simply instantaneous.
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On March 07 2011 03:44 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 03:05 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm not sure why this argument exists
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(4.a) If a Stalker laser is traveling through the air, and it is going to kill its target, that target is no longer eligible to receive an automatic attack command but can receive a manual attack command. I'm pretty sure about this, but could be wrong.
I don't know. This argument seems pointless and will do nothing but create a thread of devolving QQing about mechanics that are not fully understood. ^ Did anyone see this?
That part (4.a) is wrong. Just find a unit tester map , place 10 vikings and 2 ravens ( one raven is closer to vikings than other ) and start combat. All vikings will attack the closer raven and 2nd raven will be undamaged after first volley. There is no smart fire or whatsoever.
At the beginning , I was thinking the same thing , as people always said there is smart fire in Sc2 but turns out what they called smart fire is just engine executing unit actions one by one. ( unlike BW where actions were executed altogether with certain intervals which allowed overkill even with instant attacks )
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Obviously it's for balancing, but it still leaves bad taste for "disadvantaged" race. And personally it kind of takes "realism" out of the game. For instance, if you move a zergling where 3 tanks are seiged. Only two seige tanks will shot valleys to it. (instant + smart targeting) If you move a zergling where 10 stalkers are clumped together, all 10 stalkers will shoot at it. (missile + "smart" targeting)
If you multiply this scenario with many other units, how "instant shots" are much more efficient at killing than flying projectiles because you basically have no wasted shots with instant. Besides which, tanks shoot heavy missiles in real life and it just feel weird that their shots are instant.
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On March 07 2011 02:30 JerKy wrote:
I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think this was a bit of a bad example.
Marines counter hydralisks, so I think this match was tilted towards marines to begin with.
face palm. learn to read the OP please, and I seriously doubt marines counter hydralisks.
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The better question is who is making hydras vs terran anyway?
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On March 07 2011 03:44 TimeSpiral wrote:
(4.a) If a Stalker laser is traveling through the air, and it is going to kill its target, that target is no longer eligible to receive an automatic attack command but can receive a manual attack command. I'm pretty sure about this, but could be wrong.
[/b]
This is incorrect, and is the main reason someone made this video. If a 2nd stalker gets in range it will fire a shot, however the chances of one getting in range before the much, much faster laser doesn't happen very often. It's the reason that instant shooting is stronger in the first place (Especially for Siege Tanks, the reason it effects siege tanks more than any other unit is because Seige Tanks are for the most part the only unit that all of them will be attacking at the same time 100% of the time during a typical encounter due to their massive range)
The reason this video is insanely misleading is because ranged units are very rarely in melee range of each other. When the units are in a spread and micro occurs which is what happens in real games the results will be much, much closer. Hell, if you start them apart and just A move both balls it will be much closer.
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Eventhough Marines are criminals, I think they'd be much smarter than the average Hydralisk. Also when you're playing the campaign, that commander guy takes on a whole buncha hydralisks and is even able to block their acid spines with his arm.
Not really surprised by the video, everyone knows marines have the best dps. The video doesn't utilize the hydras max range and the fact that they'd be attacking before the marines do.
Cry harder newbs.
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More worrying thing is that 90% of posters didnt read 1st post.
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On March 07 2011 03:58 Ex_Matt wrote:
Not really surprised by the video, everyone knows marines have the best dps. The video doesn't utilize the hydras max range and the fact that they'd be attacking before the marines do.
Cry harder newbs.
Please actually read the OP. Thanks.
I can't find a reason to be concerned about this. If the game were balanced around a math problem which happened to not take projectile versus instant shot units into account, it would be worth mentioning, but as it stands I just don't see how this information is useful, since if projectile attack units were too weak or scaled badly or something on the whole they could just have their numbers adjusted to compensate.
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The reason is because Marines won't overkill in the sense that all of them will fire at 1 unit. Marines will only shoot enough to kill that certain unit and the rest will choose another target and so on and so forth. This is for all intents and purposes, the Siege Tank "Smart Fire" in play.
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EPT
