EPT4a is wrong (as already discussed).
1 - Of course missile will perform worse. But it's surprising (to me and obviously most others) that the difference is so significant.
insta vs. missile shot - Page 8
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
4a is wrong (as already discussed). 1 - Of course missile will perform worse. But it's surprising (to me and obviously most others) that the difference is so significant. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
When units don't overkill we attribute them as having smartfire. The two concepts are synonymous. The word "smartfire" does not imply intent. Blizzard wrote code that produces this effect, that's what he's talking about when he mentions the algorithm. Whether or not they intended it to be that way is inconsequential. The point is that there is no smartfire AI or "algorhythm". There is no decision-making that looks at who's being attacked by what and sees that something is about to die, so it shoots something else. The effect of "smartfire" is nothing more than an outgrowth of instant attack speed coupled with unit death happening during the processing of attacks. | ||
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bigmak
Canada6 Posts
When adding this factor with "smartfire," (it's just the way the engine is built, who cares what concept is called by, as long as you don't have to state "it's the linear progression of automated instant shooting to see whether the target is dead or not fire" /rant) you can achieve some pretty horrific results. To back this up; when pausing at a certain frame at 35 seconds, there are 2 dead "hydras" and 3 damaged "hydras", while there is only 1 dead marine, and 2 damaged marines. This compounds further leading to an overall amazing result favouring the instant firing mechanism. I would like to see the impact that armour for the "hydras" would have in this situation. | ||
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QuestSeekers
United States39 Posts
Also, I think it is hilarious how many people thing this has to do with Hydra vs Marine balance... | ||
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SetStndbySmn
United States657 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 07 2011 03:56 CurLy[] wrote: The better question is who is making hydras vs terran anyway? On March 07 2011 03:58 Ex_Matt wrote: Eventhough Marines are criminals, I think they'd be much smarter than the average Hydralisk. Also when you're playing the campaign, that commander guy takes on a whole buncha hydralisks and is even able to block their acid spines with his arm. Not really surprised by the video, everyone knows marines have the best dps. The video doesn't utilize the hydras max range and the fact that they'd be attacking before the marines do. Cry harder newbs. Learn to read the OP please... On topic: This isn't surprising, due to the fact that insta-shot does not overkill. What I find somewhat enlightening, is that this gives me a bit of better insight into the Terran ball, and how that works. The insta-shot seems unique to Terran in that it only really exists in their common balls in a significant way. | ||
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EpicLord
United States18 Posts
What would be interesting is if someone made a scenario where marines had the same stats as a hydra, then compare them fighting head to head (marine-hydra vs hydra). I would expect the results to occur in similar numbers, but any high amount of variance could show further existence of overkill or smart fire respectively. Also, in regards to the above poster about the marine bio ball, it would appear that marines could help make marauders incredibly more effective than they are already in a head to head fight against another army mass (Hydra/Roach for example). If the marines targeted the lower health units and killed them with their instant fire, the marauders wouldn't waste their shots on them. Thus, removing the overkill factor from the marauders. However, I am not 100% sure on how the AI works, so I do not exactly know if the marines would change targets to get a finishing blow, as that would be most effective and the AI tends to try and be effective. EDIT: Another thing I would like to see is the hydras getting a surround on the marines, and see if that would distribute damage more effectively for the hydras, or ineffectively for the marines (I would assume both). Of course the numbers would have to be so that each hydra can target each marine without moving. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On March 07 2011 03:53 Tiax;mous wrote: That part (4.a) is wrong. Just find a unit tester map , place 10 vikings and 2 ravens ( one raven is closer to vikings than other ) and start combat. All vikings will attack the closer raven and 2nd raven will be undamaged after first volley. There is no smart fire or whatsoever. At the beginning , I was thinking the same thing , as people always said there is smart fire in Sc2 but turns out what they called smart fire is just engine executing unit actions one by one. ( unlike BW where actions were executed altogether with certain intervals which allowed overkill even with instant attacks ) If I was at home, I'd test it, but i'm fairly sure the overkill only applies to the first target - when initiating combat, units will all shoot at the foe they see first (which is almost always the closest unit) Just from my ZvZ experience: In roach vs roach battles, with a similar amount of units on both sides, the player with a few Zerglings will win. They run in first and the first ling gets shot by ALL roaches in range, and if you move-command your roaches close to his, they will be able to hit multiple targets since they are "close" to a number of roaches. After that the fire will even out, but you should be about 3 roaches ahead. This effect is repeated if the enemy Zerg tries to kite - after every move-command, they will treat each battle as a new initiation. So the retreating player is actually in a disadvantage. (especially if you still have Zerglings in the front) It is the same with any ranged unit, but for some reason not really for siege tanks. Maybe the are just slower in locking their target (delayed instant attack, stupid as it may sound), but this is just speculation. So in the end, units with faster attack speed will spread their fire faster, and instantanious ranged attacks will obviously do so too - which is how I'd explain this example video. Could be wrong though~ | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
This is how I think it should be fixed. Keep the way missile attacks look the same, but make the actual damage done instant. Easy peasy. If they want to keep the feel of missile. Maybe they could make it so units that are about to be killed by a missile unit in one volley can't attack nor be attacked. If someone at Blizzard could program a smart targeting system for siege tanks, then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do this. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On March 07 2011 04:17 EpicLord wrote: The thing I feel this video shows is how much of an advantage a first volley is, and how much better instant fire is compared to projectile due to something about the AI. Since the hydras shouldn't have 2 spines firing out from themselves at the same time, you would expect the numbers to be equal, as they get the same damage per interval as the marines, except the marines get theirs earlier. The only thing that could offset the equality would be AI or the advantage of first volley, since the marines get their damage to occur about 1 attack sequence sooner basically, due to instant fire. What would be interesting is if someone made a scenario where marines had the same stats as a hydra, then compare them fighting head to head (marine-hydra vs hydra). I would expect the results to occur in similar numbers, but any high amount of variance could show further existence of overkill or smart fire respectively. Why would that be different to marine vs marine with insta vs time delay? Same thing just slightly different stats which shouldn't change the overall outcome. | ||
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lim1017
Canada1278 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On March 07 2011 04:10 NicolBolas wrote: The point is that there is no smartfire AI or "algorhythm". There is no decision-making that looks at who's being attacked by what and sees that something is about to die, so it shoots something else. The effect of "smartfire" is nothing more than an outgrowth of instant attack speed coupled with unit death happening during the processing of attacks. You're bringing up intent, which I already addressed | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
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Ex_Matt
Canada84 Posts
On March 07 2011 04:05 Turgid wrote: Please actually read the OP. Thanks. I can't find a reason to be concerned about this. If the game were balanced around a math problem which happened to not take projectile versus instant shot units into account, it would be worth mentioning, but as it stands I just don't see how this information is useful, since if projectile attack units were too weak or scaled badly or something on the whole they could just have their numbers adjusted to compensate. You seem to be challenged when it comes to understanding what you read. The OP didn't give any real information, just disclaimers. My post was replying to the people crying imbalance. God you people should of stayed in school, or at least consider taking a placement level English course. Might be a bad idea since most of you would fail it miserably. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On March 07 2011 04:17 EpicLord wrote: The thing I feel this video shows is how much of an advantage a first volley is, and how much better instant fire is compared to projectile due to something about the AI. Since the hydras shouldn't have 2 spines firing out from themselves at the same time, you would expect the numbers to be equal, as they get the same damage per interval as the marines, except the marines get theirs earlier. The only thing that could offset the equality would be AI or the advantage of first volley, since the marines get their damage to occur about 1 attack sequence sooner basically, due to instant fire. What would be interesting is if someone made a scenario where marines had the same stats as a hydra, then compare them fighting head to head (marine-hydra vs hydra). I would expect the results to occur in similar numbers, but any high amount of variance could show further existence of overkill or smart fire respectively. This is not about the "hydras" dying first because of the first volley hitting earlier, it's about multiple "hydras" shooting the same target and doing way more damage than is necessary to kill. | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
I mean seriously guys Regardless, its an interesting tidbit. I'd always wonder how much stronger units would be with instant attack (imagine stalkers with instant attack!) | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
Would a mod kindly edit the OP with red font where it talks about hydras being identical to marines except for the projectile attack? | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On March 07 2011 04:15 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Learn to read the OP please... On topic: This isn't surprising, due to the fact that insta-shot does not overkill. What I find somewhat enlightening, is that this gives me a bit of better insight into the Terran ball, and how that works. The insta-shot seems unique to Terran in that it only really exists in their common balls in a significant way. Actually, I think Marines overkill too. It's just that they fire so fast, you can't really be sure. But for example when watching GSL TvZ, and seeing a player with perfect stutterstep micro (MKP games I recommend), it's visible that always only one Zergling dies, while the others are not even hurt - even if there are like 12 marines. When he leaves them standing, they will spread fire. Again, I may be wrong, but from my observations, only tanks don't overkill on the first shot. | ||
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lilky
United States131 Posts
jesus christ stupid americans cant read the 20 words in the post for those of you who are too stupid to understand what the OP is saying: THOSE ARE NOT NORMAL HYDRALISKS IN THE VIDEO THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME STATS (health, range, rate of fire, unit collision size, movement speed, EVERYTHING) THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE HYDRALISKS FIRE PROJECTILES AND THE MARINES FIRE INSTANTLY. as a result, the marines CANNOT overkill the hydralisks do overkill | ||
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