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insta vs. missile shot - Page 8

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whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
March 06 2011 19:09 GMT
#141
@TimeSpiral

4a is wrong (as already discussed).

1 - Of course missile will perform worse. But it's surprising (to me and obviously most others) that the difference is so significant.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
March 06 2011 19:10 GMT
#142
When units don't overkill we attribute them as having smartfire. The two concepts are synonymous. The word "smartfire" does not imply intent. Blizzard wrote code that produces this effect, that's what he's talking about when he mentions the algorithm. Whether or not they intended it to be that way is inconsequential.


The point is that there is no smartfire AI or "algorhythm". There is no decision-making that looks at who's being attacked by what and sees that something is about to die, so it shoots something else. The effect of "smartfire" is nothing more than an outgrowth of instant attack speed coupled with unit death happening during the processing of attacks.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
bigmak
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada6 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 19:13:31
March 06 2011 19:12 GMT
#143
I'd like to point out the offset impact of the missile attack. At 34 seconds, if properly paused you will find that 4 "hydras" are damaged and that none of the marines are damaged. This plays are large role, especially since the opposing "hydras" are softened up more quickly.

When adding this factor with "smartfire," (it's just the way the engine is built, who cares what concept is called by, as long as you don't have to state "it's the linear progression of automated instant shooting to see whether the target is dead or not fire" /rant) you can achieve some pretty horrific results. To back this up; when pausing at a certain frame at 35 seconds, there are 2 dead "hydras" and 3 damaged "hydras", while there is only 1 dead marine, and 2 damaged marines. This compounds further leading to an overall amazing result favouring the instant firing mechanism.

I would like to see the impact that armour for the "hydras" would have in this situation.
QuestSeekers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States39 Posts
March 06 2011 19:14 GMT
#144
I hope blizzard does consider 'projectile' vs 'instant shot' when they balance. Like has been mentioned, Dragoons are a good example of how much 'projectile' speed attacks can affect game play. They overkilled way more than instant shot units, they were much worse at clearer mines, etc. I think in the case of the Dragoon it made the interesting because you had to compensate for the Dragoons weakness (led to dancing micro, to clear mines).

Also, I think it is hilarious how many people thing this has to do with Hydra vs Marine balance...
strategy is distinct from tactics; tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement, while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked.
SetStndbySmn
Profile Joined August 2010
United States657 Posts
March 06 2011 19:14 GMT
#145
To an extent I like the smart firing aspect of the game; Queing up focus fire on marauders for immortals can make some unwinnable fights winnable. However, in the immortal case, they are only super cost affective when picking out 'armored' units from the fray, so there is some micro skill involved. This particular application of the mechanic does seem pretty unreasonable though :-/.
"He doesn't operate under some divine shroud that lets him determine what is or is not valid culture. He cannot rob you, retroactively, of wholly valid experiences; he cannot transform them into worthless things." - Tycho
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
March 06 2011 19:15 GMT
#146
On March 07 2011 03:56 CurLy[] wrote:
The better question is who is making hydras vs terran anyway?


On March 07 2011 03:58 Ex_Matt wrote:
Eventhough Marines are criminals, I think they'd be much smarter than the average Hydralisk. Also when you're playing the campaign, that commander guy takes on a whole buncha hydralisks and is even able to block their acid spines with his arm.

Not really surprised by the video, everyone knows marines have the best dps. The video doesn't utilize the hydras max range and the fact that they'd be attacking before the marines do.

Cry harder newbs.


Learn to read the OP please...

On topic:

This isn't surprising, due to the fact that insta-shot does not overkill. What I find somewhat enlightening, is that this gives me a bit of better insight into the Terran ball, and how that works. The insta-shot seems unique to Terran in that it only really exists in their common balls in a significant way.
you gotta dance
EpicLord
Profile Joined December 2010
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 19:36:51
March 06 2011 19:17 GMT
#147
The thing I feel this video shows is how much of an advantage a first volley is, and how much better instant fire is compared to projectile due to something about the AI. Since the hydras shouldn't have 2 spines firing out from themselves at the same time, you would expect the numbers to be equal, as they get the same damage per interval as the marines, except the marines get theirs earlier. The only thing that could offset the equality would be AI or the advantage of first volley, since the marines get their damage to occur about 1 attack sequence sooner basically, due to instant fire.

What would be interesting is if someone made a scenario where marines had the same stats as a hydra, then compare them fighting head to head (marine-hydra vs hydra). I would expect the results to occur in similar numbers, but any high amount of variance could show further existence of overkill or smart fire respectively.

Also, in regards to the above poster about the marine bio ball, it would appear that marines could help make marauders incredibly more effective than they are already in a head to head fight against another army mass (Hydra/Roach for example). If the marines targeted the lower health units and killed them with their instant fire, the marauders wouldn't waste their shots on them. Thus, removing the overkill factor from the marauders. However, I am not 100% sure on how the AI works, so I do not exactly know if the marines would change targets to get a finishing blow, as that would be most effective and the AI tends to try and be effective.

EDIT: Another thing I would like to see is the hydras getting a surround on the marines, and see if that would distribute damage more effectively for the hydras, or ineffectively for the marines (I would assume both). Of course the numbers would have to be so that each hydra can target each marine without moving.
For the Swarm!
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
March 06 2011 19:17 GMT
#148
On March 07 2011 03:53 Tiax;mous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 03:44 TimeSpiral wrote:
On March 07 2011 03:05 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'm not sure why this argument exists
================================


(4.a) If a Stalker laser is traveling through the air, and it is going to kill its target, that target is no longer eligible to receive an automatic attack command but can receive a manual attack command. I'm pretty sure about this, but could be wrong.

I don't know. This argument seems pointless and will do nothing but create a thread of devolving QQing about mechanics that are not fully understood.


^ Did anyone see this?


That part (4.a) is wrong. Just find a unit tester map , place 10 vikings and 2 ravens ( one raven is closer to vikings than other ) and start combat. All vikings will attack the closer raven and 2nd raven will be undamaged after first volley. There is no smart fire or whatsoever.

At the beginning , I was thinking the same thing , as people always said there is smart fire in Sc2 but turns out what they called smart fire is just engine executing unit actions one by one. ( unlike BW where actions were executed altogether with certain intervals which allowed overkill even with instant attacks )



If I was at home, I'd test it, but i'm fairly sure the overkill only applies to the first target
- when initiating combat, units will all shoot at the foe they see first (which is almost always the closest unit)

Just from my ZvZ experience: In roach vs roach battles, with a similar amount of units on both sides, the player with a few Zerglings will win. They run in first and the first ling gets shot by ALL roaches in range, and if you move-command your roaches close to his, they will be able to hit multiple targets since they are "close" to a number of roaches.
After that the fire will even out, but you should be about 3 roaches ahead.

This effect is repeated if the enemy Zerg tries to kite - after every move-command, they will treat each battle as a new initiation. So the retreating player is actually in a disadvantage. (especially if you still have Zerglings in the front)


It is the same with any ranged unit, but for some reason not really for siege tanks. Maybe the are just slower in locking their target (delayed instant attack, stupid as it may sound), but this is just speculation.

So in the end, units with faster attack speed will spread their fire faster, and instantanious ranged attacks will obviously do so too - which is how I'd explain this example video.

Could be wrong though~
A backwards poet writes inverse.
LoLAdriankat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 19:18:26
March 06 2011 19:17 GMT
#149
Someone brought this to my attention in a roach/hydra topic in the strategy forums and I was taken by surprise. The overkill that the missile units do made me wonder how many games were ruined. >.<

This is how I think it should be fixed. Keep the way missile attacks look the same, but make the actual damage done instant. Easy peasy.

If they want to keep the feel of missile. Maybe they could make it so units that are about to be killed by a missile unit in one volley can't attack nor be attacked. If someone at Blizzard could program a smart targeting system for siege tanks, then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do this.
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 19:24:55
March 06 2011 19:18 GMT
#150
On March 07 2011 04:17 EpicLord wrote:
The thing I feel this video shows is how much of an advantage a first volley is, and how much better instant fire is compared to projectile due to something about the AI. Since the hydras shouldn't have 2 spines firing out from themselves at the same time, you would expect the numbers to be equal, as they get the same damage per interval as the marines, except the marines get theirs earlier. The only thing that could offset the equality would be AI or the advantage of first volley, since the marines get their damage to occur about 1 attack sequence sooner basically, due to instant fire.

What would be interesting is if someone made a scenario where marines had the same stats as a hydra, then compare them fighting head to head (marine-hydra vs hydra). I would expect the results to occur in similar numbers, but any high amount of variance could show further existence of overkill or smart fire respectively.


Why would that be different to marine vs marine with insta vs time delay? Same thing just slightly different stats which shouldn't change the overall outcome.
HOLY CHECK!
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
March 06 2011 19:18 GMT
#151
IMO anyone who posted about hydras being crappy or w/e should have recieve a quality idiot star or something the post is pretty clearly written..
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
March 06 2011 19:19 GMT
#152
On March 07 2011 04:10 NicolBolas wrote:
Show nested quote +
When units don't overkill we attribute them as having smartfire. The two concepts are synonymous. The word "smartfire" does not imply intent. Blizzard wrote code that produces this effect, that's what he's talking about when he mentions the algorithm. Whether or not they intended it to be that way is inconsequential.


The point is that there is no smartfire AI or "algorhythm". There is no decision-making that looks at who's being attacked by what and sees that something is about to die, so it shoots something else. The effect of "smartfire" is nothing more than an outgrowth of instant attack speed coupled with unit death happening during the processing of attacks.

You're bringing up intent, which I already addressed
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
March 06 2011 19:21 GMT
#153
This topic has been discussed (ongoing) @PlayXP and it's one of the (many) reasons people grind their teeth against Blizzard and its Terran favoritism. I sympathize with them.
Ex_Matt
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada84 Posts
March 06 2011 19:22 GMT
#154
On March 07 2011 04:05 Turgid wrote:


Please actually read the OP. Thanks.

I can't find a reason to be concerned about this. If the game were balanced around a math problem which happened to not take projectile versus instant shot units into account, it would be worth mentioning, but as it stands I just don't see how this information is useful, since if projectile attack units were too weak or scaled badly or something on the whole they could just have their numbers adjusted to compensate.



You seem to be challenged when it comes to understanding what you read. The OP didn't give any real information, just disclaimers. My post was replying to the people crying imbalance.

God you people should of stayed in school, or at least consider taking a placement level English course. Might be a bad idea since most of you would fail it miserably.

User was temp banned for this post.
Fear the reaper man
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
March 06 2011 19:24 GMT
#155
On March 07 2011 04:17 EpicLord wrote:
The thing I feel this video shows is how much of an advantage a first volley is, and how much better instant fire is compared to projectile due to something about the AI. Since the hydras shouldn't have 2 spines firing out from themselves at the same time, you would expect the numbers to be equal, as they get the same damage per interval as the marines, except the marines get theirs earlier. The only thing that could offset the equality would be AI or the advantage of first volley, since the marines get their damage to occur about 1 attack sequence sooner basically, due to instant fire.

What would be interesting is if someone made a scenario where marines had the same stats as a hydra, then compare them fighting head to head (marine-hydra vs hydra). I would expect the results to occur in similar numbers, but any high amount of variance could show further existence of overkill or smart fire respectively.

This is not about the "hydras" dying first because of the first volley hitting earlier, it's about multiple "hydras" shooting the same target and doing way more damage than is necessary to kill.
ganil
Profile Joined August 2009
253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 19:24:54
March 06 2011 19:24 GMT
#156
It looks like a lot of people fail at reading the bold part of the 1st post lol.
BrTarolg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom3574 Posts
March 06 2011 19:24 GMT
#157
I seriously wish i could shoot every single poster who doesn't realise that the hydras are adjusted to be marines with a projectile animation....

I mean seriously guys

Regardless, its an interesting tidbit. I'd always wonder how much stronger units would be with instant attack (imagine stalkers with instant attack!)
nitdkim
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1264 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-06 19:27:16
March 06 2011 19:25 GMT
#158
to be honest, I don't think blizzard even knows the extent that instant ranged damage has over projectiles. I think this mechanic is a tricky thing to deal with when trying to balance the game since there is the exponential growth damage output with the existence of deathballs from terran and protoss. In contrast, zerg has a decrease of damage output since they rely on surrounds and terrain and surface area for melee damage etc.

Would a mod kindly edit the OP with red font where it talks about hydras being identical to marines except for the projectile attack?
PM me if you want random korean images translated.
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
March 06 2011 19:25 GMT
#159
On March 07 2011 04:15 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 03:56 CurLy[] wrote:
The better question is who is making hydras vs terran anyway?


Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 03:58 Ex_Matt wrote:
Eventhough Marines are criminals, I think they'd be much smarter than the average Hydralisk. Also when you're playing the campaign, that commander guy takes on a whole buncha hydralisks and is even able to block their acid spines with his arm.

Not really surprised by the video, everyone knows marines have the best dps. The video doesn't utilize the hydras max range and the fact that they'd be attacking before the marines do.

Cry harder newbs.


Learn to read the OP please...

On topic:

This isn't surprising, due to the fact that insta-shot does not overkill. What I find somewhat enlightening, is that this gives me a bit of better insight into the Terran ball, and how that works. The insta-shot seems unique to Terran in that it only really exists in their common balls in a significant way.


Actually, I think Marines overkill too.
It's just that they fire so fast, you can't really be sure.

But for example when watching GSL TvZ, and seeing a player with perfect stutterstep micro (MKP games I recommend), it's visible that always only one Zergling dies, while the others are not even hurt - even if there are like 12 marines.
When he leaves them standing, they will spread fire.

Again, I may be wrong, but from my observations, only tanks don't overkill on the first shot.
A backwards poet writes inverse.
lilky
Profile Joined January 2011
United States131 Posts
March 06 2011 19:26 GMT
#160
CAN YOU F*CKIN RETARDS READ THE DAMN OP POST!??!!?

jesus christ stupid americans cant read the 20 words in the post

for those of you who are too stupid to understand what the OP is saying:
THOSE ARE NOT NORMAL HYDRALISKS IN THE VIDEO
THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME STATS (health, range, rate of fire, unit collision size, movement speed, EVERYTHING)
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE HYDRALISKS FIRE PROJECTILES AND THE MARINES FIRE INSTANTLY.

as a result, the marines CANNOT overkill
the hydralisks do overkill
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