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On March 07 2011 00:03 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 23:56 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
If I take one hydra and one marine(both unupgraded) and pit them against each other, the hydra will come out on top. Almost to the point of being ridiculous. Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot?
These videos are as silly now just as they were back in the beta when you would see one pop up almost every day. They dont really prove anything and just waste peoples time. Not to berate you in any way but it's more or less why you dont see them any more. Most have realised that the only true way to see something as op or not is through testing the units out in real battle conditions not in a vacuum like in this video. These are not HydralisksThey are Marines with the Hydralisk model and attack animation
Wow I'm fucking stupid, I completely missed the obvious. Sorry op!
Regarding the matter, as long as the units arent exact copies of each other(where the only discerning factor is one has instant hit and the other has missiles) there are other factors at work to balance out instant vs missile shot. So even though the results of the op's work points to instant being in favor it is still a very specific situation and as such only tells us instant is better. Nothing more nothing less.
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I'm fine with the Hydra shot delay, I just want Hydras to be buffed (slightly). I dunno how, movement speed or something like that.
User was warned for this post
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On March 07 2011 01:54 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:03 hugman wrote:On March 06 2011 23:56 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
If I take one hydra and one marine(both unupgraded) and pit them against each other, the hydra will come out on top. Almost to the point of being ridiculous. Should there really be that big a difference in the game between instant and missile shot?
These videos are as silly now just as they were back in the beta when you would see one pop up almost every day. They dont really prove anything and just waste peoples time. Not to berate you in any way but it's more or less why you dont see them any more. Most have realised that the only true way to see something as op or not is through testing the units out in real battle conditions not in a vacuum like in this video. These are not HydralisksThey are Marines with the Hydralisk model and attack animation Wow I'm fucking stupid, I completely missed the obvious. Sorry op! Regarding the matter, as long as the units arent exact copies of each other(where the only discerning factor is one has instant hit and the other has missiles) there are other factors at work to balance out instant vs missile shot. So even though the results of the op's work points to instant being in favor it is still a very specific situation and as such only tells us instant is better. Nothing more nothing less.
What are the other factors?
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On March 07 2011 01:34 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. Because the sc2 engine works like this: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! ... in sc:bw it was like: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? save answer ... - every unit having an enemy unit in range: shoot! And whats the point of asking me which tank is going to shot first? I dont know, i didnt write the engine. Maybe every unit gets an integer once they are build, and the engine goes thrue those numbers every tick, maybe its the closest one, or whatever. I mean, its the same with every instant shoot unit. Drop a 1 hp marauder in range of 2 immortals. Only one will shoot. Smart fire? No! Its just how the engine works. By the time the engine works with the 2nd immortal, they is no marauder anymore. Oh, here is the original dustin bowder post: + Show Spoiler +DustinB: Yeah, I have the same feeling. But the numbers don't support that. ZvT is almost 50/50 win/loss right now. We are studying the issue and trying to figure out if we should make a move and what that move should be. Also the Siege Tanks do not smart target. It's just the way the code works. To help with perfomance, units do not fire all at once. There is a tiny offset between different units firing their weapons. From the users perspective it is almost simultaenous, but the shots are actually 1/8-1/16th of a second apart. Since units cannot target units that are already dead and since Siege Tanks hit their targets instantly, this creates the situation you are describing, where Siege Tanks waste fewer shots.
About the Browder quote, he actually got it wrong and gave the numbers for the random attack delay, but that can't explain why there's no overkill at all, since if it was random, then it would randomly overkill or not, the chance depending on how many units can fire and the granulity of the randomness. He even said "waste fewer shots" as if they still overkill, but they actually don't overkill at all.
The delay between each unit is in the internal calculations only, the units still fire at the same game frame.
There are also other delays that are part of the game mechanics, like the damage point and turning rate, which you can actually notice, but they can't result in a lack of overkill.
In BW the units died on the next frame. If you set the game speed to slowest, you can easily see that units sit with 0 hp for a short time before dying. This does not happen in SC2.
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Its certainly odd but its probably that the 1st few marines don't die for the short duration that they are in immune to being overkilled flagged and so closer hydrines don't kill them from close earlier while they are in that state even though they could.
Thus those immune to being overkilled are immune to dmg for the duration of the missile arriving the kill them, giving them time to output the odd shot extra giving them an advantage of insta shot vs missile shot.
It would be interesting to see if actual hydras(not these hydrines) would have a significant benefit if given insta shots instead.
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I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think this was a bit of a bad example.
Marines counter hydralisks, so I think this match was tilted towards marines to begin with.
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Wow, extremely interesting simulation, I never realized how much of an effect the projectile mechanic had on the game. I wonder if marines would even be used if every unit behaved in the same way o.O
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On March 07 2011 02:30 JerKy wrote:
I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think this was a bit of a bad example.
Marines counter hydralisks, so I think this match was tilted towards marines to begin with.
He's exploring projectile vs instant attack; the units are exactly the same otherwise (he tweaked the health/rate of fire).
In addition, there's not a definite reason why marines should counter hydralisks, this somewhat simulation explains that nuance.
Edit2: I suppose removal of the instant attack between BW and SC2 was an enormous stealth-nerf, I wonder if they just did this to put hydras in line with the PDD mechanic...
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On March 07 2011 02:30 JerKy wrote:
I understand what you're trying to say here, but I think this was a bit of a bad example.
Marines counter hydralisks, so I think this match was tilted towards marines to begin with.
Please read the OP, these are NOT hydras, they are hydras with marine stats (hp, attack, attack rate...)
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On March 07 2011 01:34 Grummler wrote:Oh, here is the original dustin bowder post: + Show Spoiler +DustinB: Yeah, I have the same feeling. But the numbers don't support that. ZvT is almost 50/50 win/loss right now. We are studying the issue and trying to figure out if we should make a move and what that move should be. Also the Siege Tanks do not smart target. It's just the way the code works. To help with perfomance, units do not fire all at once. There is a tiny offset between different units firing their weapons. From the users perspective it is almost simultaenous, but the shots are actually 1/8-1/16th of a second apart. Since units cannot target units that are already dead and since Siege Tanks hit their targets instantly, this creates the situation you are describing, where Siege Tanks waste fewer shots.
Hmmm, I smell something decidedly fishy in that quote, insofar as I think Mr. Browder has misunderstood what his techies are telling him.
In order for that to be true, the following scenario would be possible...
Assuming a 1/16th of a second delay between each instant firer's shot, if a force of 54 marines were moved into range of a target and the target right clicked, it would take a minimum of three seconds for each of those marines to get a shot off. Furthermore, given that marines attack roughly every 0.9 game seconds, the rate of fire of those marines would be reduced by a factor of almost three. In fact, in order for marines to be able to shoot every 0.9 game seconds, under Mr. Browders scenario a force could consist of no more than about 15 marines, with every additional marine after that point not contributing to the overall DPS (by virtue of having to wait for all the others to take a shot before it's allowed to shoot).
Clearly, this does not happen.
I suspect what he means it takes between 1/8th and 1/16th of a second to poll the AI of all units on the field, so whilst all shots are not simultaneous, all units that are eligible to fire within a given pool of the AI will do so over the course of between 1/8th and 1/16th of a second.
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I wouldn't mind if they added overkill for all hitscan attacks. It might mess with the balance but it'd make the game more interesting, and make stuff like Zealot bombs more viable again (if anyone built tanks in TvP)
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I'm not sure why this argument exists
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(1) Isn't it obvious that if everything is the same except instant shot and projectile that the projectile would perform worse? How is this even remotely surprising or revealing?
(2) Why are people comparing marines to hydras? That is not what the video is about, at all.
(3) There are plenty of other stats and balancing attributes that were taken into consideration when deciding which units to have instant hit or projectile.
(4) Doesn't the smart fire system have a short delay before every single attack command regardless of whether or not it is instant shot or projectile? Unless you are target firing, an a+moved force should not overkill regardless of instant shot or projectile. I could be wrong about this, but that is my understanding.
(4.a) If a Stalker laser is traveling through the air, and it is going to kill its target, that target is no longer eligible to receive an automatic attack command but can receive a manual attack command. I'm pretty sure about this, but could be wrong.
I don't know. This argument seems pointless and will do nothing but create a thread of devolving QQing about mechanics that are not fully understood.
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On March 07 2011 01:52 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:34 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. Because the sc2 engine works like this: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! ... in sc:bw it was like: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? save answer ... - every unit having an enemy unit in range: shoot! And whats the point of asking me which tank is going to shot first? I dont know, i didnt write the engine. Maybe every unit gets an integer once they are build, and the engine goes thrue those numbers every tick, maybe its the closest one, or whatever. I mean, its the same with every instant shoot unit. Drop a 1 hp marauder in range of 2 immortals. Only one will shoot. Smart fire? No! Its just how the engine works. By the time the engine works with the 2nd immortal, they is no marauder anymore. Oh, here is the original dustin bowder post: + Show Spoiler +DustinB: Yeah, I have the same feeling. But the numbers don't support that. ZvT is almost 50/50 win/loss right now. We are studying the issue and trying to figure out if we should make a move and what that move should be. Also the Siege Tanks do not smart target. It's just the way the code works. To help with perfomance, units do not fire all at once. There is a tiny offset between different units firing their weapons. From the users perspective it is almost simultaenous, but the shots are actually 1/8-1/16th of a second apart. Since units cannot target units that are already dead and since Siege Tanks hit their targets instantly, this creates the situation you are describing, where Siege Tanks waste fewer shots. Well there you have it. In the end it doesn't matter what the reasoning for the occurence of smartfire is. It is a fact that units with missile do overkill targets while instant shooting units do not. In BW both did overkill. Not overkilling units is smartfire and makes for better effective DPS.
In case you already forgot, thats what you said hours ago:
[...] there is a smartfire algorhythm
And no, there is no algorithm at all. Its wrong what you said. I never said that tanks do overkill, though. Many people also think thats its only the tanks that have a "smart fire" thingy - thats wrong too.
Just because instant shoot untis doesnt overkill, there doesnt have to be some kind of mystic smart fire.
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On March 07 2011 00:29 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 23:56 Zalias wrote:
Not bad video, ofcourse it allmost never happens that hidra will fight like that vs marines ( no1 will even make those in zvt). But i always thought that marine is a bit too much cost-effective... The video shows two equal units with 100% equal stats, but one of them has a missle, the other one an instant atack. It coincedently just happens to be a marine and a hydra graphic modell. Immortal (without shields and stuff) vs marauder would be the same. Maybe even worse, cause the marauders missle are much slower than the hydras.
It's unreal how many people here cannot grasp this simple fact.
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Don't bring needles to a gun fight
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Woo! That was awesome and very interesting. I never knew there was such a big differences. Maybe you should of done armor upgrade instead of attack? Just a thought
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On March 06 2011 23:50 FortuneSyn wrote:
all hydra stats (collision size, hp, attack dmg and shot delays) were tweaked to match the marine. The only difference between the 2 in this video is that the hydra shoots a missile, the marine shoots instantly.
I really don't believe it... Will be running my own tests on this as it simply makes no sense...
The hydra's look like they are attacking MUCH slower... Was the attack animation sped up aswell? because it doesn't look like it, in which case the "shot delay" whatever value they changed is flat-out wrong.
Everyone who's played any DotA/HoN game knows how important the attack animation speed is when it comes to attacks... It is the deciding factor in this video, NOT the fact that it is a missile attack.
Should change the title of the thread to "long attack animation vs short attack animation" as that's the major difference in this vid. NOT the missile attack.
(ps, anyone who's saying it's overkill that's the problem, is flat-out wrong. If that were the case the first marine would die in the first hit...)
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On March 06 2011 23:55 OFCORPSE wrote:
That's sick. They were instant in BW right? why did they decide to shoot spines instead of that acid spit anyway.
Good luck with trying to avoid the balance discussion though
They shot spines in broodwar too by the way
"Needle Spines" <- hydralisks attack name
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That shit is ridiculous.
Thats the reason why marines can shoot while moving when other units would just overkill and waste 80% of dmg.
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On March 07 2011 03:07 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 01:52 Slunk wrote:On March 07 2011 01:34 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:23 Mailing wrote:On March 07 2011 01:13 Grummler wrote:On March 07 2011 01:06 Slunk wrote:
You are wrong, there is a smartfire algorhythm. If you have two tanks and you drop a zergling in the range of both, in SC1 both would fire, in SC2 only one fires. This has nothing to do with delays ion fire rate or something, this is just an intended mechanis m that we call smartfire . YOU are wrong. There is NO smartfire. The tanks doesnt shot simultaniously, because the game engine calculates everything step by step. Once the first shot, there is no zergling anymore, so no need to the 2nd tank to shoot. Dustin Bowder even said this in an interview, that this wasnt intentional and purely is a coincident. Back then he said, that they might give tanks a (very fast) missle atack without changing the shot animation at all. You have TWO tanks at EQUAL range from an overlord. BOTH are in siege mode. You now DROP a zergling. WHICH tank fires FIRST, and WHY. They SHOULD fire at the same time, but do not. Why. Because the sc2 engine works like this: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? If yes: shoot! ... in sc:bw it was like: - take unit 1: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 2: Are there enemy units in range? save answer - take unit 3: Are there enemy units in range? save answer ... - every unit having an enemy unit in range: shoot! And whats the point of asking me which tank is going to shot first? I dont know, i didnt write the engine. Maybe every unit gets an integer once they are build, and the engine goes thrue those numbers every tick, maybe its the closest one, or whatever. I mean, its the same with every instant shoot unit. Drop a 1 hp marauder in range of 2 immortals. Only one will shoot. Smart fire? No! Its just how the engine works. By the time the engine works with the 2nd immortal, they is no marauder anymore. Oh, here is the original dustin bowder post: + Show Spoiler +DustinB: Yeah, I have the same feeling. But the numbers don't support that. ZvT is almost 50/50 win/loss right now. We are studying the issue and trying to figure out if we should make a move and what that move should be. Also the Siege Tanks do not smart target. It's just the way the code works. To help with perfomance, units do not fire all at once. There is a tiny offset between different units firing their weapons. From the users perspective it is almost simultaenous, but the shots are actually 1/8-1/16th of a second apart. Since units cannot target units that are already dead and since Siege Tanks hit their targets instantly, this creates the situation you are describing, where Siege Tanks waste fewer shots. Well there you have it. In the end it doesn't matter what the reasoning for the occurence of smartfire is. It is a fact that units with missile do overkill targets while instant shooting units do not. In BW both did overkill. Not overkilling units is smartfire and makes for better effective DPS. In case you already forgot, thats what you said hours ago: And no, there is no algorithm at all. Its wrong what you said. I never said that tanks do overkill, though. Many people also think thats its only the tanks that have a "smart fire" thingy - thats wrong too. Just because instant shoot untis doesnt overkill, there doesnt have to be some kind of mystic smart fire.
When units don't overkill we attribute them as having smartfire. The two concepts are synonymous. The word "smartfire" does not imply intent. Blizzard wrote code that produces this effect, that's what he's talking about when he mentions the algorithm. Whether or not they intended it to be that way is inconsequential.
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Im pretty sure it doesnt have to do much with missile vs. not missile, since the marines has "missile" attacks, they can overkill, too
The reason why Hydra loose so bad is because they overkill very much. due to their slower attack speed.
For example take a target with 23 HP (completly made up scenario)
Marine dmg: 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 24 HP dmg done, with an overkill of 1.
Hydra dmg: 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 28 HP dmg done, with an overkill of 5.
So the Hydra lost 5 dmg, due to its higher dmg resulting in an overkill.
Now think about that scenario with 3 Marines/Hydras shooting simultaniously on a target with 3 HP.
Hydra would overkill for 18(!) HP, while marines would only do overkill for 9. Thats a huge difference.
So in conclusion u have to say the quicker attackspeed and the quicker traveltime of the marines give them the advantage, because they switch targets more efficient.
I want to emphazise again Marines dont have instant attack like tanks. If u run away from 10x3HP lings u will not just shoot 10 times, because the AI will focus down the nearest target first and overkill it very hard, even with marines.
EDIT:
Nevermind? I just read on the one side there are marines and on the other "marines" in Hydra models with just slower missles. Well my calculation is still valid and for a view on the actual marine vs. Hydra it is an explanation, why Hydra get killed so hard by Marines.
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EPT
