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On March 04 2011 05:38 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 23:21 Markus138 wrote:
I was trying to get some information about it, but I couldn't really find anything about the situation. Can anyone explain to me what the problem with KESPA and Blizzard is? (or link me to a thread if I accidently missed it) when KESPA started charging broadcasting companies for the rights to broadcast their starcraft tournaments, blizzard took offense and made the claim that since starcraft was their game, charging for broadcast right of their product isn't something KESPA can do, since they do not own the Intellectual Property rights to starcraft. KESPA then claimed that starcraft was public domain. gretech and OGN were willing to negotiate with blizzard for IP rights in korea. KESPA didn't like this at all, OGN without warning or explanation drops out of negotiating right before announcing more (now questionably legal) starleagues after a deadline set by blizzard. lawsuits have now been filed and hearings are being made.
To my knowledge KESPA aren't charging OGN and MBC for broadcasting starcraft at all, they are charging them for using KESPA affiliated players in their broadcasts.
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On March 04 2011 06:07 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 05:38 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 03 2011 23:21 Markus138 wrote:
I was trying to get some information about it, but I couldn't really find anything about the situation. Can anyone explain to me what the problem with KESPA and Blizzard is? (or link me to a thread if I accidently missed it) when KESPA started charging broadcasting companies for the rights to broadcast their starcraft tournaments, blizzard took offense and made the claim that since starcraft was their game, charging for broadcast right of their product isn't something KESPA can do, since they do not own the Intellectual Property rights to starcraft. KESPA then claimed that starcraft was public domain. gretech and OGN were willing to negotiate with blizzard for IP rights in korea. KESPA didn't like this at all, OGN without warning or explanation drops out of negotiating right before announcing more (now questionably legal) starleagues after a deadline set by blizzard. lawsuits have now been filed and hearings are being made. To my knowledge KESPA aren't charging OGN and MBC for broadcasting starcraft at all, they are charging them for using KESPA affiliated players in their broadcasts.
They are charging for broadcasting rights to the KESPA sanctioned starcraft tournaments. not for starcraft specifically, but their own tournaments of it. charging for rights to have a person on tv is in definite violation of some civil rights as in order for that to be lawful KESPA would have to own the players as property. but their own tournaments is as least something they can claim they have rights to.
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Wait, isn't this just cutting off your nose to spite your face?
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Honestly, KeSPA was the only reason I even got back into starcraft, so if the progaming scene disappears, then I'll just go play another non-blizzard game...
I'm better at FPS games anyway.
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On March 04 2011 06:12 branflakes14 wrote:
Wait, isn't this just cutting off your nose to spite your face?
nah it's more like being put between a rock and a hard place.
if they go against KESPA they have to run blizzard events without KESPA players ever.
if they go against Blizzard they can't run blizzard events. however if KESPA wins the IP rights lawsuit, they can run blizzard events with KESPA players in the future.
pretty much by KESPA putting pressure on them, they are forced to have this year be bad. but they are banking on the future with this.
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Australia8532 Posts
Sad to see top level politics getting in the way of ground level tournaments  more reason for this to get cleared up as soon as possible!
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Gotta love these union busting times.
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On March 04 2011 06:04 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:34 Insanious wrote:On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote:
Hope blizzard loses and fast. if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger... Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money. If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there. People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies: "If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts". Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly. Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar. My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Not really
You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case.
And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar.
Doubt they expected BW to become as popular as it is today compared to back then.
Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had.
Sales.
You can have sales by making other games (i.e. casual/idle based games) and not esports. TBH it could even be a starcraft based game that's like farmville or some crap.... imagine maybe a zergling farm where you try to feed and care for zerglings for example ^^', it's not that hard to think of something like that.
My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Yes, but no...
If the people broadcasting the game on TV for money aren't respecting your Intellectual property, then there isn't a point in making the game, as tbh well, unless I guess you make the singleplayer only/or very good, then there wouldn't be much of a point in it, you can't make money "tapping" into a market that wants all the money for themselves (try going to for example, the general fansubbing community, where most of the people would just rather to download it or watch it for free rather than pay for it**)
I however disagree with Blizz about replays and custom maps however, as those have (for example) *my* intellectual "property" with it however. Making tournaments and broadcasting it, however isn't that person's intellectual property in any way.
**: This is of course, not talking about CR series, as CR makes it so you can watch it (legally) normally a few weeks after, for free. && the fact that those series usually has less people fansubbing it because there is usually not much of a point. Also I'm more of talking about the people who were into anime (via torrents, xdcc, illegal streams, whatever) until ~2010-2011, as the legal alternatives didn't get into the state it is right now (able to compete with fansubs) until then
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I remember a time when this topic was discussed on these forums and everyone took blizzards side, now you are starting to see the damage it is causing. Blizzard was just being plain greedy, trying to milk every undeserved penny they could get legally. Starcraft that we know it, would of been dead long ago if it wasnt for the korean broadcasting stations. Thumbs up to the Blizzard Fanboys
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On March 04 2011 06:04 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:34 Insanious wrote:On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote:
Hope blizzard loses and fast. if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger... Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money. If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there. People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies: "If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts". Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly. Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar. My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Except they don't have a real incentive to create a truly balanced game. They can simply pump out a Super Smash Bros Brawl quality of SC# or WC# and call it a day (fun, but balanced in the least). Only patching things that break the game. Complain all you want about the state of SC2 right now, but it's fairly balanced and that's because Blizzard has striven from the beginning to create a competitive game out of it.
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I don't get why everyone keeps discussing it. It's all so subjective and it's actually quite ridiculous imo, we don't even have 1% of the information on what's actually going on in the OGN / MBC v Blizzard most of it is just assumptions people make and then use it as an argument.
It's just silly to discuss something you don't know a thing of and claiming things like Blizzard is trying to kill BW is just being ignorant and choosing the side of kespa. If Blizzard wanted to kill BW they would have ordered the injunction ( am I using the right word ) ages ago and there would have been no MSL / OSL atm.
Stop hating on blizzard and stop hating on Kespa theyre doing this for their own interest that's pretty much all we can conclude from this but what company / organization doesn't?
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On March 04 2011 06:44 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:04 KlaCkoN wrote:On March 03 2011 09:34 Insanious wrote:On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote:
Hope blizzard loses and fast. if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger... Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money. If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there. People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies: "If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts". Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly. Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar. My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money. Except they don't have a real incentive to create a truly balanced game. They can simply pump out a Super Smash Bros Brawl quality of SC# or WC# and call it a day (fun, but balanced in the least). Only patching things that break the game. Complain all you want about the state of SC2 right now, but it's fairly balanced and that's because Blizzard has striven from the beginning to create a competitive game out of it.
or like I said in my above post..... zergling farm !! ._. (which I admit'll be amusing, but not something I'd want for starcraft...)
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On March 03 2011 09:34 Insanious wrote:if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger... Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money. If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there. People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies: "If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts". Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Wow where did u get ur logic from? If blizzard was to lose and stop producing games, other gaming corporation would be throwing a party for they know they can produce a similar game and make money.
From how I see it, If people are to stream sc2 tournaments (outside of GSL) on justin.tv, ustream, or any other stream, shouldnt they pay for broadcasting rights?
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On March 04 2011 07:03 BreakerD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:34 Insanious wrote:On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote:
Hope blizzard loses and fast. if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger... Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money. If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there. People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies: "If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts". Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly. Wow where did u get ur logic from? If blizzard was to lose and stop producing games, other gaming corporation would be throwing a party for they know they can produce a similar game and make money. From how I see it, If people are to stream sc2 tournaments (outside of GSL) on justin.tv, ustream, or any other stream, shouldnt they pay for broadcasting rights?
Competitive Game != Games in general
He's saying that they won't make competitive games, and can make any other type of game: idle, puzzle, etc.**
And I doubt other companies can produce a "similar" game as that has been already tried (Age of *, TA, Civilizations, whatever)... doesn't mean it can become an esport/competitive sport (just an RTS)....
From how I see it, If people are to stream sc2 tournaments (outside of GSL) on justin.tv, ustream, or any other stream, shouldnt they pay for broadcasting rights?
most people stream practice games/ladder games, which aren't tournaments for one
the ones that do, have to legally tell blizzard (using their tournament form) to tell them.
I don't know ofc if they did, but that's legally what they have to do, and if they don't, they can be shut down legally at any time.
**: Yes you can make money off of those.... Please see Farmville@Zynga which is apparently soon going to surpass activision sometime.........
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fix your shit Blizzard, sooner or later, this sucks ! I guess the e-sports players and spectators are dissapointed with this tho.
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A tournament without blizzard games, well GL with losing 50% participant/audience/viewers
Sc2 is growing at an incredible pace and do you think this will harm Blizzard at all?
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Blizzard wins this one still.
What are they thinking. You think sponsors want to dump money into a tournament that's only CS? lol. War3/SC/BW/Sc2/WoW(to a small extent common) are incredibly big around the world. Eliminating those takes out pretty much all games from esports.
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Only CS tournament... lol.
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God bless the creators of Minecraft. They are not in it for the money but the sake of making an epic game. When they were asked why they don't wanna make a sequel to Minecraft or an expansion they said "We're not in it to make money, tho the money from Minecraft will help us make a new game with more possibilities"
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Now, I can see why Blizzard wants money out of this.
But I can see why these companies do not want to pay to Blizzard as well. These companies essentially popularized and advertised Blizzard products, and that's part of the reason why so many of copies of those have been sold. I don't think EA Sports would charge a cent, if, say a Korean TV, asked to make a competitive game out of it and broadcast it on TV. That's free advertising.
Blizzard is being ridiculous on so many points. But still, it's their right to dictate the conditions of use for their own product. Eventually though, it might not help them. If another company dares to come up with a good RTS game, and agrees for free advertising through competitive gaming, Blizzard will be quick to rethink their position.
This is like that Sony technology vs VHS technology battle or more recently, BluRay vs HDTV (or whatever) format battle. The side which showed less flexibility and wanted more control lost. As we know, Sony's technology was better than VHS, but Sony wanted to control everything and wanted money out of everything, everybody to ask permission etc. The world just went for VHS, and Sony was left empty-handed.
I hope another company dares to make a decent RTS game, I will be glad to laugh at the Blizzard idiots for their greed.
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EPT
