Blizzard’s IP rights war against Korean broadcast companies has claimed yet another victim. E-Stars Seoul, in a show of solidarity with KeSPA, is removing Blizzard games from its tournament in August.
E-Stars has become one of the biggest international esports tournaments in Korea, producing some superb WC3 and SCBW matches in the past. But, due to the fall-out between Blizzard and KeSPA, OGN and MBC, E-Stars 2011 will be a pure Counter-Strike event. The prize money from Blizzard titles will apparently be funnelled back into CS. There are also suggestions that the unusual, gimmicky format will be dropped this year, with the organisers possibly seeing an opportunity to make E-Stars a major CS tournament in lieu of the RTS action.
The news is disappointing for Korean esports, however, with CS being very much a lesser game. The Blizzard vs KeSPA fight continues to cause problems for the so-called Mecca of esports, with WCG recently appearing to put themselves on the side of the other broadcasters. Although nothing is official yet, there is a distinct possibility that Blizzard games will not be appearing at that event either.
Sad to see another tournament fall to the KeSPA vs Blizzard war, it's really having a toll on korean e-sports.
It is known for a fact that it is due to the lawsuit or just speculation? I haven't seen any hard evidence that it is directly due to the lawsuit. (I am sure it is, but who knows, the translation in the above link has it mentioned but I am not sure how bluntly it was mentioned.)
Great scott. This is certainly not a good year for the Korean e-sports scene despite SC2 exploding everywhere else in the world.
I think Blizzard made a huge mistake with their lawsuit. They were planning on using the specter of the lawsuit to pressure KeSPA into agreeing with their terms, and when KeSPA called the bluff, Blizzard unfortunately showed that they weren't bluffing. I wish the lawsuit card was never played in the first place. Many more months of stalled negotiations is much better than what we have now.
Although it is sad for eSports you have to realise Blizzard is a full-fledged company and they have to protect their rights. We're talking THOUSANDS of jobs here and hundreds of familis tepending on Blizzard's income every month. I feel a lot of people support kespa because of loyalty and fail to see the biggure picture. In a perfect world they would respect the authority of the figure providing the IPs. Either way, as I said, sad for eSports but Blizz is losing a ton of money from KESPA and that's a lot of money that doesn't go towards the development of our favorite games.
Kespa continuing its arrogance. They feel like Blizzard needs them since Korea used to be the e-sports capital of the world. Guess they haven't kept track of tournaments everywhere else... they are not as important as they used to be.
Although this does really seem bad, you have to realize that this is how the world works. One day you have a beautiful flower, and then the next it is dead and wilted. You feel sad--until you notice a new flower in its spot the next day...
Things like this will happen. I see it as a good thing for the CS community because honestly, as PC gamers, we need to keep PC gaming alive. Xbox controls alllll nowwwww... which means that the less money they make for PC gaming, the less they have to produce parts, and evnetually down the line there wont be games for PC anymore
edit: CS community is kinda dying. That's a huge amount of people =p
On March 03 2011 03:01 lolbolt wrote: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT MEANS WE WON'T GET TO SEE TOSSGIRL PLAY
Indeed. The lack of Tossgirl is the biggest loss considering that she is secretly the real Protoss bonjwa.
Anyways, I think the fact that this thread was posted in the SC2 section only means that the anti-KeSPA opinions will outnumber the anti-Blizzard opinions. The opposite would probably happen if it was posted in the BW forum, which I think would be a more logical choice considering that this mainly has the greatest effect on BW, not SC2.
It blows my mind how stupid these people are. And now imagine they would do exactly the same with more important issues than e-sports, medicine for example. Makes me sick.
Here I have a product, why don't you just buy it... then make money off of it and never give me a dime. You really think i'm going to continue to allow you to do that...
only if i'm a scrub without a backbone. KESPA is going to get screwed so badly at trial it won't matter. Hell most gamers don't even like KESPA from what the pro's have said.
On March 03 2011 04:13 purecarnagge wrote: Here I have a product, why don't you just buy it... then make money off of it and never give me a dime. You really think i'm going to continue to allow you to do that...
only if i'm a scrub without a backbone. KESPA is going to get screwed so badly at trial it won't matter. Hell most gamers don't even like KESPA from what the pro's have said.
it was more like, here i have a product, why don't you just buy it... then you make a little money out of it so we don't really care since it's chump change 10 years later: oh shit you're making a lot of money and refusing to give us a dime
On March 03 2011 04:13 purecarnagge wrote: Here I have a product, why don't you just buy it... then make money off of it and never give me a dime. You really think i'm going to continue to allow you to do that...
only if i'm a scrub without a backbone. KESPA is going to get screwed so badly at trial it won't matter. Hell most gamers don't even like KESPA from what the pro's have said.
it was more like, here i have a product, why don't you just buy it... then you make a little money out of it so we don't really care since it's chump change 10 years later: oh shit you're making a lot of money and refusing to give us a dime
But it's their prerogative as the original owners.
Just like all the videos on Youtube using copywritten material getting taken down years later... Just because they don't do anything about it now doesn't mean they can't do something about it down the line.
KESPA is screwed not just on point, but ON ALL FOURS. They should have taken the deal, Blizzard's lawyers are going to gut them in court.
On March 03 2011 03:01 lolbolt wrote: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT MEANS WE WON'T GET TO SEE TOSSGIRL PLAY
Indeed. The lack of Tossgirl is the biggest loss considering that she is secretly the real Protoss bonjwa.
Anyways, I think the fact that this thread was posted in the SC2 section only means that the anti-KeSPA opinions will outnumber the anti-Blizzard opinions. The opposite would probably happen if it was posted in the BW forum, which I think would be a more logical choice considering that this mainly has the greatest effect on BW, not SC2.
Is it because Blizz/MBC is in a lawsuit that some tournaments are excluding Blizz games or is it they know Blizz will win the lawsuit? Or is it like the previous article about WCG and that kespa leaders just want to thumb down Blizz games as spite? OR this is just to blame blizzard for the war.
On March 03 2011 04:41 Lokian wrote: Is it because Blizz/MBC is in a lawsuit that some tournaments are excluding Blizz games or is it they know Blizz will win the lawsuit? Or is it like the previous article about WCG and that kespa leaders just want to thumb down Blizz games as spite? OR this is just to blame blizzard for the war.
Probably more along the lines, we don't have any rights to have this game in our line up. We will get sued if we have a tournament with this game in it, as proven by the Blizzard/KESPA case.
Just getting sued and the costs that are associated with it is enough to deter in many cases.
Blizzard have always had the upper hand, and they will continue to do so. This is not Blizzard's fault as much as it is the organizations that failed to compromise with them.
You don't get to make the rules when someone has a gun over your head.
(in before they shouldn't have a gun to their heads anyway)
On March 03 2011 02:42 eviltomahawk wrote: Great scott. This is certainly not a good year for the Korean e-sports scene despite SC2 exploding everywhere else in the world.
I think Blizzard made a huge mistake with their lawsuit. They were planning on using the specter of the lawsuit to pressure KeSPA into agreeing with their terms, and when KeSPA called the bluff, Blizzard unfortunately showed that they weren't bluffing. I wish the lawsuit card was never played in the first place. Many more months of stalled negotiations is much better than what we have now.
I believe Blizzard will be fine, especially with SC2 exploding everywhere else like you said. After a while I have a feeling that tournaments will have to include SC2 and Blizzard games whether or not they like it, as there will be far too much money to lose. Its very rare you see any organization give up a large profit for moral/support issues like this.
It is also about forcing(probably too much of a loose term) OGN/MBC to broadcast SC2 instead of BW. For those of you who have not read the article, Blizzard is not in an owmyfuckinggodalmighty position.
It is also about forcing(probably too much of a loose term) OGN/MBC to broadcast SC2 instead of BW. For those of you who have not read the article, Blizzard is not in an owmyfuckinggodalmighty position.
But that was a contract with Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN or MBC and Blizzard. It doesn't say anything about SC2 in the possible agreements with those two broadcasting companies.
Honestly a bad move by the tournament organizers. It hurts them a lot more than it hurts Blizzard... A LOT fewer people will be interested in the tournament considering it rules out the most popular game in the world - WoW, the most competitive game in the world - brood war, and the most popular competitive game - Star2.
On March 03 2011 04:13 purecarnagge wrote: Here I have a product, why don't you just buy it... then make money off of it and never give me a dime. You really think i'm going to continue to allow you to do that...
only if i'm a scrub without a backbone. KESPA is going to get screwed so badly at trial it won't matter. Hell most gamers don't even like KESPA from what the pro's have said.
They aren't making money off it. This is probably a pointless discussion to get into because people with bad information and making shit up will no doubt flood out this thread, but where do you see a big profit for KeSPA coming from? If anything the fact that BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea would suggest they helped make Blizzard a significant amount of money.
On March 03 2011 04:13 purecarnagge wrote: Here I have a product, why don't you just buy it... then make money off of it and never give me a dime. You really think i'm going to continue to allow you to do that...
only if i'm a scrub without a backbone. KESPA is going to get screwed so badly at trial it won't matter. Hell most gamers don't even like KESPA from what the pro's have said.
They aren't making money off it. This is probably a pointless discussion to get into because people with bad information and making shit up will no doubt flood out this thread, but where do you see a big profit for KeSPA coming from? If anything the fact that BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea would suggest they helped make Blizzard a significant amount of money.
KESPA makes 0 profit, the organizations that make up kespa profit.
Pretty much the business model is
group of corporations form non profit together.
the non profit charges for broadcasting rights to a sport, the amount charged and earned pays for the industry mostly, with the sponsers (corporations within KESPA) paying very little to nothing.
the corporations get: ultra cheap advertising, paid for by the stations broadcasting the games
We get: to watch brood war
Players get: treated as billboards of varying popularity. with very small salaries (except a few notable exceptions)
it's just a simple capitalistic exploitation. nothing inheirently evil or wrong about it, unless you view it froma player point of view.
see if blizzard gets to win the IP rights, the organizations within kespa have to start paying the full price for their advertising, which they don't want, which is why KESPA is against it.
Although this does really seem bad, you have to realize that this is how the world works. One day you have a beautiful flower, and then the next it is dead and wilted. You feel sad--until you notice a new flower in its spot the next day...
Until I pull that chunk of soil out.
Jk jk jk xD Good comparison.
Wow never heard of E-Stars, but I hope the Kespa vs Blizzard will progress faster. Well right now it's actually just MBC vs Blizzard, it might even take more court cases
It seems like way this is going to end is that bw outside of korea is gonna be killed off completely :<
kespa only gives a fuck about BW in korea and seems to be trying to threaten blizzard by making organisations outside of korea stop doing BW. Blizzard doesnt give a fuck about BW.
am i getting anything right or am i completely wrong?
On March 03 2011 04:13 purecarnagge wrote: Here I have a product, why don't you just buy it... then make money off of it and never give me a dime. You really think i'm going to continue to allow you to do that...
only if i'm a scrub without a backbone. KESPA is going to get screwed so badly at trial it won't matter. Hell most gamers don't even like KESPA from what the pro's have said.
They aren't making money off it. This is probably a pointless discussion to get into because people with bad information and making shit up will no doubt flood out this thread, but where do you see a big profit for KeSPA coming from? If anything the fact that BW sold 4.5 million copies in Korea would suggest they helped make Blizzard a significant amount of money.
KESPA makes 0 profit, the organizations that make up kespa profit.
Pretty much the business model is
group of corporations form non profit together.
the non profit charges for broadcasting rights to a sport, the amount charged and earned pays for the industry mostly, with the sponsers (corporations within KESPA) paying very little to nothing.
the corporations get: ultra cheap advertising, paid for by the stations broadcasting the games
We get: to watch brood war
Players get: treated as billboards of varying popularity. with very small salaries (except a few notable exceptions)
it's just a simple capitalistic exploitation. nothing inheirently evil or wrong about it, unless you view it froma player point of view.
see if blizzard gets to win the IP rights, the organizations within kespa have to start paying the full price for their advertising, which they don't want, which is why KESPA is against it.
I know how it works; But Blizzard isn't interesting in making a 'reasonable' charge for use of BW, their intention is clearly to shut it down entirely to help their new game. Which is terrible for eSports, considering after so many years the one single majorly successful game which has houses and salaries for players will be sacrificed for nothing.
Hah, their loss, Will be a huge failure without Blizzard games. And in the meantime SC2 is getting bigger and bigger outside of Asia.
But Blizzard isn't interesting in making a 'reasonable' charge for use of BW, their intention is clearly to shut it down entirely to help their new game
On March 03 2011 06:12 Hypemeup wrote: Hah, their loss, Will be a huge failure without Blizzard games. And in the meantime SC2 is getting bigger and bigger outside of Asia.
But Blizzard isn't interesting in making a 'reasonable' charge for use of BW, their intention is clearly to shut it down entirely to help their new game
4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
On March 03 2011 06:10 monkh wrote: It seems like way this is going to end is that bw outside of korea is gonna be killed off completely :<
kespa only gives a fuck about BW in korea and seems to be trying to threaten blizzard by making organisations outside of korea stop doing BW. Blizzard doesnt give a fuck about BW.
am i getting anything right or am i completely wrong?
KOREAN e-Sports Players Association so yes they can give a fuck about whats going on outside of korea (and they still had OSL finals in China).
not like BW has so many tournaments in the last years hm? (Outside of Korea) Blizzard gives a fuck about any of their games after they sold enough stuff.
It seems like way this is going to end is that bw outside of korea is gonna be killed off completely :<
Cant kill what is dead already.
Keep in mind, that except was from Gretech's contract, and that there was no mention of it's truth or defense from blizzard or gretech so far.
IE it's an accusational thing not a fact yet.
EDIT: also on tournaments doing this with blizz games, it's being 100% demanded by kespa, which means that the tournaments have to choose: run blizzard events without kespa players, and spend all this extra money on blizz stuff that won't be watched as much (due to lack of exciting participants) or just cut it and hopefully kespa wins the IP rights and then they can continue with the event.
pretty much kespa is saying side with us or your tournament will fail every year. and if they side with kespa their tournament fails this year but maybe not future years.
I really think this will hurt E-stars more then it will hurt blizzard. If this sort of trend continues, there will continue to be new tournys that follow blizz rules, while ones that refuse to comply will simply die off, at least from the RTS scene.
ew; This really hurts the RTS community. I would be interested in what happens in a year from now in Starcraft 2 / Blizzard games in korea and in the rest of the world.
On March 03 2011 06:12 Hypemeup wrote: Hah, their loss, Will be a huge failure without Blizzard games. And in the meantime SC2 is getting bigger and bigger outside of Asia.
But Blizzard isn't interesting in making a 'reasonable' charge for use of BW, their intention is clearly to shut it down entirely to help their new game
4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
Again, gretech's contract. This does not, by any reasonable interpretation, mean that Blizzard wants to somehow force Kespa players to play a different game. That's not even possible.
On March 03 2011 06:12 Hypemeup wrote: Hah, their loss, Will be a huge failure without Blizzard games. And in the meantime SC2 is getting bigger and bigger outside of Asia.
But Blizzard isn't interesting in making a 'reasonable' charge for use of BW, their intention is clearly to shut it down entirely to help their new game
4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
Again, gretech's contract. This does not, by any reasonable interpretation, mean that Blizzard wants to somehow force Kespa players to play a different game. That's not even possible.
that is what is stated in Gretech's contract with Blizzard, but Gretech is also the body responsible for negotiating contracts with other organizations within Korea (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
They also requested the original contract between Gretech and Blizzard [2] questioning Gretech's authority to form contracts.
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Frankly, South Korea is a relatively small country, the only reason people gave a damn was because BW got so huge. Once that goes away no one caters to Korea and thus it goes back to being just another relatively small country. It could play a more important role, but unfortunately the people, organizations, teams, and players let them(KeSPA) dictate their future which is a shame.
On March 03 2011 06:12 Hypemeup wrote: Hah, their loss, Will be a huge failure without Blizzard games. And in the meantime SC2 is getting bigger and bigger outside of Asia.
But Blizzard isn't interesting in making a 'reasonable' charge for use of BW, their intention is clearly to shut it down entirely to help their new game
4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty : Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that article
Again, gretech's contract. This does not, by any reasonable interpretation, mean that Blizzard wants to somehow force Kespa players to play a different game. That's not even possible.
that is what is stated in Gretech's contract with Blizzard, but Gretech is also the body responsible for negotiating contracts with other organizations within Korea (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
They also requested the original contract between Gretech and Blizzard [2] questioning Gretech's authority to form contracts.
It still doesn't strike me as a reasonable interpretation of that passage just by virtue of what the passage is suggesting. There's no way Blizzard could ever actively force anyone, by legal decision, to air Starcraft 2, and they could never force anyone to play it professionally. Potentially it's possible that they're trying to kill Brood War(though I think that's an exaggeration of what's happening, it doesn't really seem to be indicated by what's going on) but that doesn't mean they have any power to force a transition, nor can they imbue Gretech with the power to force a transition. That passage has to mean something like "Gretech has to do its best to promote and make available professional Starcraft 2 as the successor to Brood War". It wouldn't make sense as anything else.
for some reason though, i'm feeling that this is something for the long haul. its going to be a huge war but the winner emerges as the one that will define the paradigm of esports landscape.
Blizzard's only enforcing their (unenforceable) copyright claims against a select group of Korean companies who refuse to pay up protection money, meanwhile turning a blind eye against similar "infringements" in the western world. Deplorable.
It's bad for all parties involved that Blizzard's behaving this way. It's not a zero-sum game when someone hosts a tournament that popularizes your game; better businessmen and lawyers call that "free advertising" and "something we can't legally stop", respectively.
I was trying to get some information about it, but I couldn't really find anything about the situation. Can anyone explain to me what the problem with KESPA and Blizzard is? (or link me to a thread if I accidently missed it)
their loss, this 'war' everyone loses, the tourneys for not having the hottest games to draw crowds, the fans for not being able to see more good games, and blizz for losing influence on the gaming market
overall, blizz loses the least, and if this turns to a war of attrition, blizzard will win and all kespa and co. bitching about blizzard's demands will have been for naught
though, a balance must be struck between the game makers and the external esports scene, so these things must be ironed out before esports can truly take the world by storm, so i'd rather it happens now than later
and i hope the war brings as few victims as possible
E-stars is sacrificing a lot for this, but Blizzard's actions have been ridiculous. They are trying to usher sc2 into the mainstream by killing off BW. Not once during BW's reign did they try to enforce copyright claims, yet as soon as they want sc2 to become the norm, it's lawsuits everywhere. Though it may hurt esports, I hope KeSPA wins.
On March 03 2011 23:21 Markus138 wrote: I was trying to get some information about it, but I couldn't really find anything about the situation. Can anyone explain to me what the problem with KESPA and Blizzard is? (or link me to a thread if I accidently missed it)
when KESPA started charging broadcasting companies for the rights to broadcast their starcraft tournaments, blizzard took offense and made the claim that since starcraft was their game, charging for broadcast right of their product isn't something KESPA can do, since they do not own the Intellectual Property rights to starcraft. KESPA then claimed that starcraft was public domain.
gretech and OGN were willing to negotiate with blizzard for IP rights in korea.
KESPA didn't like this at all, OGN without warning or explanation drops out of negotiating right before announcing more (now questionably legal) starleagues after a deadline set by blizzard.
lawsuits have now been filed and hearings are being made.
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar.
My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
On March 03 2011 23:21 Markus138 wrote: I was trying to get some information about it, but I couldn't really find anything about the situation. Can anyone explain to me what the problem with KESPA and Blizzard is? (or link me to a thread if I accidently missed it)
when KESPA started charging broadcasting companies for the rights to broadcast their starcraft tournaments, blizzard took offense and made the claim that since starcraft was their game, charging for broadcast right of their product isn't something KESPA can do, since they do not own the Intellectual Property rights to starcraft. KESPA then claimed that starcraft was public domain.
gretech and OGN were willing to negotiate with blizzard for IP rights in korea.
KESPA didn't like this at all, OGN without warning or explanation drops out of negotiating right before announcing more (now questionably legal) starleagues after a deadline set by blizzard.
lawsuits have now been filed and hearings are being made.
To my knowledge KESPA aren't charging OGN and MBC for broadcasting starcraft at all, they are charging them for using KESPA affiliated players in their broadcasts.
On March 03 2011 23:21 Markus138 wrote: I was trying to get some information about it, but I couldn't really find anything about the situation. Can anyone explain to me what the problem with KESPA and Blizzard is? (or link me to a thread if I accidently missed it)
when KESPA started charging broadcasting companies for the rights to broadcast their starcraft tournaments, blizzard took offense and made the claim that since starcraft was their game, charging for broadcast right of their product isn't something KESPA can do, since they do not own the Intellectual Property rights to starcraft. KESPA then claimed that starcraft was public domain.
gretech and OGN were willing to negotiate with blizzard for IP rights in korea.
KESPA didn't like this at all, OGN without warning or explanation drops out of negotiating right before announcing more (now questionably legal) starleagues after a deadline set by blizzard.
lawsuits have now been filed and hearings are being made.
To my knowledge KESPA aren't charging OGN and MBC for broadcasting starcraft at all, they are charging them for using KESPA affiliated players in their broadcasts.
They are charging for broadcasting rights to the KESPA sanctioned starcraft tournaments. not for starcraft specifically, but their own tournaments of it. charging for rights to have a person on tv is in definite violation of some civil rights as in order for that to be lawful KESPA would have to own the players as property. but their own tournaments is as least something they can claim they have rights to.
Honestly, KeSPA was the only reason I even got back into starcraft, so if the progaming scene disappears, then I'll just go play another non-blizzard game... I'm better at FPS games anyway.
On March 04 2011 06:12 branflakes14 wrote: Wait, isn't this just cutting off your nose to spite your face?
nah it's more like being put between a rock and a hard place.
if they go against KESPA they have to run blizzard events without KESPA players ever. if they go against Blizzard they can't run blizzard events. however if KESPA wins the IP rights lawsuit, they can run blizzard events with KESPA players in the future.
pretty much by KESPA putting pressure on them, they are forced to have this year be bad. but they are banking on the future with this.
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar.
My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Not really
You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar.
Doubt they expected BW to become as popular as it is today compared to back then.
Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales.
You can have sales by making other games (i.e. casual/idle based games) and not esports. TBH it could even be a starcraft based game that's like farmville or some crap.... imagine maybe a zergling farm where you try to feed and care for zerglings for example ^^', it's not that hard to think of something like that.
My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Yes, but no...
If the people broadcasting the game on TV for money aren't respecting your Intellectual property, then there isn't a point in making the game, as tbh well, unless I guess you make the singleplayer only/or very good, then there wouldn't be much of a point in it, you can't make money "tapping" into a market that wants all the money for themselves (try going to for example, the general fansubbing community, where most of the people would just rather to download it or watch it for free rather than pay for it**)
I however disagree with Blizz about replays and custom maps however, as those have (for example) *my* intellectual "property" with it however. Making tournaments and broadcasting it, however isn't that person's intellectual property in any way.
**: This is of course, not talking about CR series, as CR makes it so you can watch it (legally) normally a few weeks after, for free. && the fact that those series usually has less people fansubbing it because there is usually not much of a point. Also I'm more of talking about the people who were into anime (via torrents, xdcc, illegal streams, whatever) until ~2010-2011, as the legal alternatives didn't get into the state it is right now (able to compete with fansubs) until then
I remember a time when this topic was discussed on these forums and everyone took blizzards side, now you are starting to see the damage it is causing. Blizzard was just being plain greedy, trying to milk every undeserved penny they could get legally. Starcraft that we know it, would of been dead long ago if it wasnt for the korean broadcasting stations. Thumbs up to the Blizzard Fanboys
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar.
My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Except they don't have a real incentive to create a truly balanced game. They can simply pump out a Super Smash Bros Brawl quality of SC# or WC# and call it a day (fun, but balanced in the least). Only patching things that break the game. Complain all you want about the state of SC2 right now, but it's fairly balanced and that's because Blizzard has striven from the beginning to create a competitive game out of it.
I don't get why everyone keeps discussing it. It's all so subjective and it's actually quite ridiculous imo, we don't even have 1% of the information on what's actually going on in the OGN / MBC v Blizzard most of it is just assumptions people make and then use it as an argument.
It's just silly to discuss something you don't know a thing of and claiming things like Blizzard is trying to kill BW is just being ignorant and choosing the side of kespa. If Blizzard wanted to kill BW they would have ordered the injunction ( am I using the right word ) ages ago and there would have been no MSL / OSL atm.
Stop hating on blizzard and stop hating on Kespa theyre doing this for their own interest that's pretty much all we can conclude from this but what company / organization doesn't?
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Blizzard would still have the exact same incentive to produce good games that people want to play (and maybe even watch others play) as they've always had. Sales. You make it sound like the only reason for a company to produce a game that millions of people play, love and base their dreams on is potential broadcasting fees. That's hardly the case. And I'm certain it wasn't even a passing thought among neither executives nor developers during the creation of broodwar.
My point is that if there is a market for hard, competetive, "esports friendly" games one company or another will make money by tapping into that market. Even if laws allowed people to sell their replays, their own custom maps or broadcast the game on TV for money.
Except they don't have a real incentive to create a truly balanced game. They can simply pump out a Super Smash Bros Brawl quality of SC# or WC# and call it a day (fun, but balanced in the least). Only patching things that break the game. Complain all you want about the state of SC2 right now, but it's fairly balanced and that's because Blizzard has striven from the beginning to create a competitive game out of it.
or like I said in my above post..... zergling farm !! ._. (which I admit'll be amusing, but not something I'd want for starcraft...)
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Wow where did u get ur logic from? If blizzard was to lose and stop producing games, other gaming corporation would be throwing a party for they know they can produce a similar game and make money.
From how I see it, If people are to stream sc2 tournaments (outside of GSL) on justin.tv, ustream, or any other stream, shouldnt they pay for broadcasting rights?
On March 03 2011 09:22 L3gendary wrote: Hope blizzard loses and fast.
if blizzard loses, then they have NO incentive to EVER produce another competitive game ever... or any other gaming company. No video game company will EVER try to make something that others can just take, and use, without paying them... this will KILL e-sports and will make the casual game even stronger...
Blizzard is spending money to try and turn SC2 into the new SC (yes I realize what I just said) with respect to e-sports. When they release SC3 or WC4 or some other RTS they will be trying to do the same thing.... since it makes money.
If they cannot milk and e-sport, they they won't make an e-sport... and then we can see blizzard simply transitioning out of making games like SC, and using the IP simply to make casual friendly games and end it there.
People need to realize, companies are in this business to make money, and this lawsuit basically says to companies:
"If Blizzard wins, we can make money off of e-sports, if Blizzard loses we do not make money off of e-sorts".
Blizzard needs to win this for the gaming community... sadly.
Wow where did u get ur logic from? If blizzard was to lose and stop producing games, other gaming corporation would be throwing a party for they know they can produce a similar game and make money.
From how I see it, If people are to stream sc2 tournaments (outside of GSL) on justin.tv, ustream, or any other stream, shouldnt they pay for broadcasting rights?
Competitive Game != Games in general
He's saying that they won't make competitive games, and can make any other type of game: idle, puzzle, etc.**
And I doubt other companies can produce a "similar" game as that has been already tried (Age of *, TA, Civilizations, whatever)... doesn't mean it can become an esport/competitive sport (just an RTS)....
From how I see it, If people are to stream sc2 tournaments (outside of GSL) on justin.tv, ustream, or any other stream, shouldnt they pay for broadcasting rights?
most people stream practice games/ladder games, which aren't tournaments for one the ones that do, have to legally tell blizzard (using their tournament form) to tell them.
I don't know ofc if they did, but that's legally what they have to do, and if they don't, they can be shut down legally at any time.
**: Yes you can make money off of those.... Please see Farmville@Zynga which is apparently soon going to surpass activision sometime.........
A tournament without blizzard games, well GL with losing 50% participant/audience/viewers Sc2 is growing at an incredible pace and do you think this will harm Blizzard at all?
What are they thinking. You think sponsors want to dump money into a tournament that's only CS? lol. War3/SC/BW/Sc2/WoW(to a small extent common) are incredibly big around the world. Eliminating those takes out pretty much all games from esports.
God bless the creators of Minecraft. They are not in it for the money but the sake of making an epic game. When they were asked why they don't wanna make a sequel to Minecraft or an expansion they said "We're not in it to make money, tho the money from Minecraft will help us make a new game with more possibilities"
Now, I can see why Blizzard wants money out of this.
But I can see why these companies do not want to pay to Blizzard as well. These companies essentially popularized and advertised Blizzard products, and that's part of the reason why so many of copies of those have been sold. I don't think EA Sports would charge a cent, if, say a Korean TV, asked to make a competitive game out of it and broadcast it on TV. That's free advertising.
Blizzard is being ridiculous on so many points. But still, it's their right to dictate the conditions of use for their own product. Eventually though, it might not help them. If another company dares to come up with a good RTS game, and agrees for free advertising through competitive gaming, Blizzard will be quick to rethink their position.
This is like that Sony technology vs VHS technology battle or more recently, BluRay vs HDTV (or whatever) format battle. The side which showed less flexibility and wanted more control lost. As we know, Sony's technology was better than VHS, but Sony wanted to control everything and wanted money out of everything, everybody to ask permission etc. The world just went for VHS, and Sony was left empty-handed.
I hope another company dares to make a decent RTS game, I will be glad to laugh at the Blizzard idiots for their greed.
Now, I can see why Blizzard wants money out of this.
Blizz not want more money but more IP protection for their baby sc2.
At the end of the day, they want money. What does "more IP protection for their baby sc2" mean for them anyway? This is business, everything for money.
I am saying like it is, we saw JVC's VHS technology winning against a superior Sony Betamax technology in history. Why? Because JVC gave license to everybody who wants to make it, and consequently, VHS price and availability was great for consumers, compared to Sony's who kept the technology to themselves being too greedy, and making it expensive and unavailable.
Blizzard is doing the same here. They are keeping this game to themselves, controlling every aspect of it. If there was any decent competitor, even if the game was inferior to SC2, the TV stations would gladly take it and advertise it. The price of the game, the price of the viewing would go down (price advantage) and it would be available everywhere (youtube, TV etc.). Blizzard would be left with nothing even if they created a better game. These idiots obviously don't learn from history, and of course, also they don't see any competitor around.
Just lately we saw Sony's BluRay win against Toshiba's HD DVDs. Now that Sony learned from their past Betamax mistake, they could push their more expensive product to public through tricks.
I love watching SC2, but I am goddamn tired of these idiots at Blizzard. You charge $60 for a game, you sell millions of copies, what the fuck do you want more you greedy bastards?
In all seriousness, of course companies want to make money, but they need to protect their games too. How much can they hope to get from their IP war? -_- Blizzard is bigger than that and they clearly stated that protecting their IP is more important than milking money... Check out the Blizz IP cases in America and tell me if they did it for money. SK is no different than other places.
On March 04 2011 13:43 Lokian wrote: In all seriousness, of course companies want to make money, but they need to protect their games too. How much can they hope to get from their IP war? -_- Blizzard is bigger than that and they clearly stated that protecting their IP is more important than milking money...
That's a great point there. How much money will they get from this? I don't see them getting too much really.
They are selling the game to millions, bringing a new game every 2 years and these competitions and hype keeps their sales strong. Their main job is not to mess up what there is, instead, go mainstream, i.e. youtube, TV channels etc. with the game. Yet, they are milking $5-10/month from online viewers. That probably even doesn't cover expenses. What's wrong with these idiots I don't know.
On March 04 2011 13:43 Lokian wrote: In all seriousness, of course companies want to make money, but they need to protect their games too. How much can they hope to get from their IP war? -_- Blizzard is bigger than that and they clearly stated that protecting their IP is more important than milking money...
That's a great point there. How much money will they get from this? I don't see them getting too much really.
They are selling the game to millions, bringing a new game every 2 years and these competitions and hype keeps their sales strong. Their main job is not to mess up what there is, instead, go mainstream, i.e. youtube, TV channels etc. with the game. Yet, they are milking $5-10/month from online viewers. That probably even doesn't cover expenses. What's wrong with these idiots I don't know.
Seems like you don't have a solid understanding of the topic when you go blending Gretech and Blizzard together. Blizzard doesn't make anything (directly) from online viewers. It makes money from selling its games and protecting its IP rights.
What the... talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. I can't imagine this would affect Blizzard at all and will relegate the tournament to just a CS event.
I dont mind if everything from the OSL to the MSL gets shut down as long as Blizzard is willing to put up some type of timely replacement (if there is a market). Korea isnt important, its the players that are. And if running these tournaments is a profitable venture then new sponsors will step in to control whatever talent still exists.
Blizzard, wants SC2 to succeed and loves the free publicity of tournaments.
Kespa and other korean actors want to do their thing without blizzard putting their dick in it, and thus tries to stand up to the "big man" blizzard.
Problem is, Blizzard has WoW as a cashcow so they have absolutely no reason to back down... whereas Kespa and whatever will get eaten alive because they WILL lose the lawsuit and they have everything to lose: Blizzard may lose tournaments, kespa might die.
Would Blizzard rather not have the whole korean bw scene started in the first place? Because I could imagine a scenario that went like this many years ago: Kespa (for lack of a better representative): "Hey blizzard, we're gonna try and start a big starcraft scene here in korea, you don't mind do you? We're not sure if it's gonna be really successful or not" Blizzard: "Yeah sure! That would be great! Anything for more publicity"
... fast forward to the present Blizzard: "Ok.. so now that your thing is successful and making money and stuff... we want a cut of it since you know, it IS our game"
This is kind of a dick move on blizzard's part imo, even if it is within their rights to do so.
On March 04 2011 14:26 tyCe wrote: Well, in short, I think KesPa's motivation is money and Blizzard's motivation is rights.
Kespa is a non-profit organisation.
Not all non-profit organizations don't make money (see: many medical care facilities in the US) - and its not as if employees of kespa don't come home with a check every day. Clearly money is probably in the forefront of their minds when dealing with blizzard. However, it's foolish to think money isn't the forefront of blizzard's minds either. This dispute if financial, on both ends. Neither truly has the moral high ground in my opinion.
On March 04 2011 14:26 tyCe wrote: Well, in short, I think KesPa's motivation is money and Blizzard's motivation is rights.
Kespa is a non-profit organisation.
Not all non-profit organizations don't make money (see: many medical care facilities in the US) - and its not as if employees of kespa don't come home with a check every day. Clearly money is probably in the forefront of their minds when dealing with blizzard. However, it's foolish to think money isn't the forefront of blizzard's minds either. This dispute if financial, on both ends. Neither truly has the moral high ground in my opinion.
They do make money but not for themselves, you know, like as in they use it to help pursue their goal, which would be the consistency of esports.
Noooo~ Stop the purge Blizzards. Your maps suck too much to have an e-sport.
But on a more serious note, this may be good for e-sports in general if Blizzard can spread it elsewhere in the world rather than just in Korea. But again, it seems like the Korean culture has a completely different mindset on playing video games.
On March 04 2011 15:07 Gak2 wrote: I think of it like this:
Would Blizzard rather not have the whole korean bw scene started in the first place? Because I could imagine a scenario that went like this many years ago: Kespa (for lack of a better representative): "Hey blizzard, we're gonna try and start a big starcraft scene here in korea, you don't mind do you? We're not sure if it's gonna be really successful or not" Blizzard: "Yeah sure! That would be great! Anything for more publicity"
... fast forward to the present Blizzard: "Ok.. so now that your thing is successful and making money and stuff... we want a cut of it since you know, it IS our game"
This is kind of a dick move on blizzard's part imo, even if it is within their rights to do so.
That is pretty much how it works though. Just look at YouTube, for example. Even stuff created years ago that use licensed music can be pulled off if it violates copyrights, etc.
Oh, by the title, I thought E-stars Seoul was putting in more Blizzard games (which got me very confused). It's amazing how a simple 'of' can change a sentence.
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Back in 2007, KeSPA begun asking for broadcasting fees from OGN and MBC, for a game they had no rights to. Blizzard really disliked that move and they tried to come to an understanding with KeSPA for the next few years, until they finally had enough last year and instead made a deal with GOM for all the broadcasting rights in Korea.
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Back in 2007, KeSPA begun asking for broadcasting fees from OGN and MBC, for a game they had no rights to. Blizzard really disliked that move and they tried to come to an understanding with KeSPA for the next few years, until they finally had enough last year and instead made a deal with GOM for all the broadcasting rights in Korea.
But its not like they asked blizzard, right? I thought blizzard was just angry because their Avartec-Intel Classic never got going.
i'm so confused how people don't realize that kespa wants money, not for kespa but for the organization OF kespa.
KESPA: a non profit group of sponsers that run and manage starcraft in korea.
sponsers: people/organizations/corporations that invest in a product and expect to see a return from profits or advertisement.
KESPA makes no money
but the sponsers sure as hell do. in fact since kespa charges for rights and everything it helps reimburse the sponsers allowing them even greater revenue for even less investment. it's all about control and money you can't be so ignorant to not realize that sponsers expect to get something out of their sponsership.
On March 04 2011 15:07 Gak2 wrote: I think of it like this:
Would Blizzard rather not have the whole korean bw scene started in the first place? Because I could imagine a scenario that went like this many years ago: Kespa (for lack of a better representative): "Hey blizzard, we're gonna try and start a big starcraft scene here in korea, you don't mind do you? We're not sure if it's gonna be really successful or not" Blizzard: "Yeah sure! That would be great! Anything for more publicity"
... fast forward to the present Blizzard: "Ok.. so now that your thing is successful and making money and stuff... we want a cut of it since you know, it IS our game"
This is kind of a dick move on blizzard's part imo, even if it is within their rights to do so.
That is pretty much how it works though. Just look at YouTube, for example. Even stuff created years ago that use licensed music can be pulled off if it violates copyrights, etc.
You're mixing things up. Movies&music suffers from copyright infringement on sites like youtube, because the files are very easy to copy and if the quality is half decent there is absolutely no reason to buy the dvd/mp3. That's why they can argue that they will lose sales because of these sites. Copying from TV is more difficult (in good quality) and they get a bit money as compensation for the usage of their work, plus they need tv-stations as advertisement, because an artist that was hiding in the studio for 2 years is completely of the radar, even for many die hard fans.
Games don't suffer from the same fate. It doesn't matter if a tournament streams games or a guy posts that awesome frag video. You simply don't get the real experience through watching. The only exception might be a single player only game with a very exciting plot with many twists..if you spoil it it might ruin the fun and reason to play it. For most other games it's basically free advertisement. I've bought some games just because I saw them on a stream/tube and thought "wow, looks like fun". Games that I wouldn't have been aware of otherwise..very easy to get big awareness..I'm pretty sure that some companies even 'fake' these videos or pay 'youtube-stars' *sigh* some money to cover their games, because like 100k+ followers will at least watch the first 5 minutes of it just because that guy/girl covers the game.. Companies would be idiots if they don't utilize this free 'viral marketing'.
I'm not concerned for e-sports either. You see all these new games, that get pushed hard with big prizepool tournaments for 2-3 years, if one of them is good enough it will survive and stay big.
Even if big companies don't push a game, just look at half-life. It was a game with huge modding capabilities for longer shelf life..never meant to be big in e-sports and then some guys invented counter strike, just as a fun multiplayer game. People loved it, and because they loved it, it turned into this huge e-sport that's still played today. Fun games and players create e-sports, good balance&fancy features will determine how long it stays alive, but companies would be dumb not to support their game with millions of players, that play it or get introduced to it through tournaments, simply because they all will most likely buy the next big game of that company..
And e-sports 'focused' games won't die either, just look at all the CoDs and Battlefields or RTS that hit the market every year and have big potential, because by that logic all core games would die, since casual/facebook games are the cashcow..but guess what there are still many core games every year, because they have the most loyal followers..
It doesn't really matter how the lawsuit turns out..it's just sad for Korea aside from GSL and WCG they lose more and more attention with each game&league that dies, especially since western e-sports is kicking up big time and if it stays at this rate, then in a few years probably nobody will give a ♥♥♥♥ about Korea or GSL, because their e-sports scene won't matter anymore..
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Back in 2007, KeSPA begun asking for broadcasting fees from OGN and MBC, for a game they had no rights to. Blizzard really disliked that move and they tried to come to an understanding with KeSPA for the next few years, until they finally had enough last year and instead made a deal with GOM for all the broadcasting rights in Korea.
But its not like they asked blizzard, right? I thought blizzard was just angry because their Avartec-Intel Classic never got going.
Blizz angry that kespa sold broadcasting rights in 2007 which is pretty much stealing IP and selling it. But Blizz not so angry at first so try to negotiate for 3 years but no go for kespa, then angry. perhaps avertec intel classic heighten the anger idk. blizz gave rights to gom right before sc2 release and kespa try desperately to reason with blizz but no go. even broke NDA from blizz through all the panic.
MBC refuse to negotiate since no money. OGN complied but not anymore for no reason. grace period expires and lawsuit happens without injunction.
idk but blizz seems very reasonable to me looking back at what happened. gom can probably start a BW league but no players. maybe after the lawsuit if mbc/ogn cannot broadcast, then maybe gom will? bw won't die comon.
:\ Another event turns to shit. It's kind of sad how most Korean e-sports events literally depend on Blizzard games to be well received. Without it there's just CS or Special Force & other not very interesting games. They depend so much on Blizzard but have issues paying their due. It's only a matter of time before they finally admit it themselves, that or create whole new games that Korea would absolutely love to watch. (fat chance)
So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to. KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games?
Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected.
While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general.
So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
"Football" the sport isn't owned or created by a single company. Starcraft, on the other hand, is. Nobody owns the intellectual property rights to football.
On March 04 2011 17:57 PrinceXizor wrote: i'm so confused how people don't realize that kespa wants money, not for kespa but for the organization OF kespa.
KESPA: a non profit group of sponsers that run and manage starcraft in korea.
sponsers: people/organizations/corporations that invest in a product and expect to see a return from profits or advertisement.
KESPA makes no money
but the sponsers sure as hell do. in fact since kespa charges for rights and everything it helps reimburse the sponsers allowing them even greater revenue for even less investment. it's all about control and money you can't be so ignorant to not realize that sponsers expect to get something out of their sponsership.
KeSPA is non-profit? Not from what I've read and seen. In fact, there's been a lot of hate on KeSPA due to their insatiable greed before this lawsuit took the headlines instead.
On March 04 2011 17:57 PrinceXizor wrote: i'm so confused how people don't realize that kespa wants money, not for kespa but for the organization OF kespa.
KESPA: a non profit group of sponsers that run and manage starcraft in korea.
sponsers: people/organizations/corporations that invest in a product and expect to see a return from profits or advertisement.
KESPA makes no money
but the sponsers sure as hell do. in fact since kespa charges for rights and everything it helps reimburse the sponsers allowing them even greater revenue for even less investment. it's all about control and money you can't be so ignorant to not realize that sponsers expect to get something out of their sponsership.
KeSPA is non-profit? Not from what I've read and seen. In fact, there's been a lot of hate on KeSPA due to their insatiable greed before this lawsuit took the headlines instead.
Technically yes, but non-profit doesn't mean you don't try to earn as much revenue as you can, it simply means you must spend your profits. In other words, if your revenue exceeds your costs, you must increase your costs to match your revenue. Non profit organizations, legally, can be very very greedy.
Doesn't apply for a number of reasons, the main one being that Blizzard made multiple attempts to settle out of court with reasonable offers and KESPA refused each one. In other words, Blizzard did not unreasonably delay filing a charge.
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Back in 2007, KeSPA begun asking for broadcasting fees from OGN and MBC, for a game they had no rights to. Blizzard really disliked that move and they tried to come to an understanding with KeSPA for the next few years, until they finally had enough last year and instead made a deal with GOM for all the broadcasting rights in Korea.
But its not like they asked blizzard, right? I thought blizzard was just angry because their Avartec-Intel Classic never got going.
I don't understand how people can claim starcraft is a public domain. This is absolutely insane. Unlike say, soccer, StarCraft is a REGISTERED TRADEMARK, and as such, blizzard is in its right to enforce a payment when its brand is used to earn money, as is in KeSPA's case. I know you love BW, and we can all see how this has been hurting the progaming scene in korea, specially relating to SC2. But all of that doesn't matter, because it IS BLIZZARD'S PROPERTY, and if they want to enforce their rights over starcraft, they can do it. Its actually that simple. This happens everywhere in multiple shapes and forms, I don't see why blizz shouldn't do it. If anything, blizz has let KeSPA freely use their property for far too long, giving space for this feeling of starcraft being a public property to take shape.
It's finally coming: the end of KeSPA, at least as we've known it for the last years. Funny how they're trying to damage e-sports as much as they can before they go, just so GOM + Blizz has less "material" to work with after they win in the courts. Very childish attitude.
you should read more than just a few threads probably before calling kespa wankers. they kinda pioneered the greatest thing to ever happen for esports o_o
On March 05 2011 12:37 mordk wrote: Unlike say, soccer, StarCraft is a REGISTERED TRADEMARK
They don't use the trademark. It's not called the Starcraft League, it's called the Starleague. That's pretty much the end of what trademark applies to.
who didn't see this one coming after they pulled blizzard game out of WCG?
Korean pride lol. Obviously they haven't been keeping track on whats going on around everywhere else, Sucks that they have to behave in such childish way, last year E-Star events was freaking awesome. Not very often we get to hear Tastosis commentate on Warcraft 3 and dancing games
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to. KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games?
Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected.
While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general.
So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
"Football" the sport isn't owned or created by a single company. Starcraft, on the other hand, is. Nobody owns the intellectual property rights to football.
So much misinformation... Are you doing it on purpose?
kespas done a lot for esports. dont think they are wankers just because theyre doing this, both sides are trying to maximize the best monetary gain from this. i think pulling games is one of the worst things they (side of kespa etc) can do for the community though, kills interest for the game and the event, really sad.
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to. KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games?
Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected.
While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general.
So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
"Football" the sport isn't owned or created by a single company. Starcraft, on the other hand, is. Nobody owns the intellectual property rights to football.
So much misinformation... Are you doing it on purpose?
I've seen some of your posts from the "WCG pulls out of Blizzard games" thread, and I have to say...
A lot of people genuinely believe in the "facts" that they state in these Blizzard vs KeSPA threads. If they believe them to be true in the first place, then I don't think they are lying or purposely misinforming anyone. People in these threads are just stating what they believe, and I think it's rude to treat them as lying propaganda-spreaders. There is a chance that what they believe in is wrong, but they may honestly not realize that they are misinformed when trying to regurgitate what they know about the debate.
IMO, it's acceptable to point out flaws in someone's argument or tell them that some of their facts are wrong, but it's just plain wrong and rude to say that they are purposely lying when in fact 99.99% of people are probably just misinformed, not lying.
kespa players were in all the avertec bw tournaments but i belive in season3 blizzard put up money to be a main sponsor and some kespa teams pulled out their players like halfway through the tournament. gom didint host any bw tournaments after that.
i got into bw entirely through tasteless casting for gom, i didint know bw well enough to watch it with korean commentators before a season or two of goms tournament because i never played bw seriously and didint know who players were other than the top3. sorry if this isint 100% accurate, i watched all the gom bw games but i didint pay attention to blizz vs kespa till 2009-2010.
while i respect the work kespa has done i dont like hearing how they try to promote esports in general, they promote sc:bw in korea. if a person was not interested in bw i dont see how kespa would ever do anything to benefit them ever.
companies like samsung have revenue over $100 billion a year, kespas free advertising is worth more than any cash they could ever hope to make from the teams. so while saying kespa is non profit is true, they generate millions in profits for their dozen companies through advertising.
seems like the ip rights situation is loose/loose in that either future esport gaming suffers (casual gaming wont suffer though so game companies will shift to that direction) or bw suffers. blizzard wont be the one to suffer though. if blizzard does anything right its making as much money as possible from its work and i highly doubt theyd be in court right now if they werent completely sure theyd win.
The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players.
As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference.
On March 04 2011 16:24 ooni wrote: End of 2007 Blizzard Merges with Activision 2008 'Blizzard' starts demanding for IP rights, money for stuff
Activision is involved...-> it's about money
Again I ask, after 5+ years of kespa being allowed to run OSL and MSL, why did blizzard all the sudden start asking for money? They should just leave the Brood War scene alone especially since they never really did anything to promote the scene in korea here in America....
Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to. KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games?
Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected.
While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general.
So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
"Football" the sport isn't owned or created by a single company. Starcraft, on the other hand, is. Nobody owns the intellectual property rights to football.
So much misinformation... Are you doing it on purpose?
I've seen some of your posts from the "WCG pulls out of Blizzard games" thread, and I have to say...
A lot of people genuinely believe in the "facts" that they state in these Blizzard vs KeSPA threads. If they believe them to be true in the first place, then I don't think they are lying or purposely misinforming anyone. People in these threads are just stating what they believe, and I think it's rude to treat them as lying propaganda-spreaders. There is a chance that what they believe in is wrong, but they may honestly not realize that they are misinformed when trying to regurgitate what they know about the debate.
IMO, it's acceptable to point out flaws in someone's argument or tell them that some of their facts are wrong, but it's just plain wrong and rude to say that they are purposely lying when in fact 99.99% of people are probably just misinformed, not lying.
I can't keep track of who's genuinely lost when it comes to the issue between blizzard and KeSPA, and who's spreading misinformation at that point. There are just too many people making such ridiculous claims.
But you have to agree there are some people who do that on purpose. Take the "KeSPA threatened to ban players if they play in gretech's league" "argument". People claiming that (or similar things) have been proven wrong again and again, yet they keep lying about that situation.
On March 05 2011 11:56 Whitewing wrote:
Because KESPA started demanding money from other companies for the right to broadcast Blizzard games: something only Blizzard should have the right to do. In other words, KESPA was acting as if it owned Starcraft, which Blizzard has the Intellectual Property rights to.
Wrong. They started demanding money for ProLeague, which is largely their creation. They reinvested all that money back into esports (Dream League, expanded ProLeague, Special Force ProLeague, and so on).
They have never demanded any money for OSL or MSL, thus claiming they charged the broadcasters for broadcasting blizzard games is ludicrous.
KESPA is refusing to recognize Blizzard's claim of IP rights, and Blizzard needs to defend it's property, or what incentive is there to actually create games?
Refusing to recognize their IP rights? Is this why HanBit Soft got blizzard's permission back in the days and why KeSPA agreed to pay blizzard royalties?
What incentive, you ask? Well, how about selling those games for $50 or so each? It's not like KeSPA is illegally selling BW copies, now, is it? Whether what they're doing is breaching blizzard's IP rights is for the court to determine. It's certainly not black and white. StarCraft's ToS/EULA (unlike SC2's) say nothing about broadcasting games and other activities KeSPA is involved in.
Blizzard actually tried negotiating and coming to terms with KESPA for years before the lawsuit. KESPA refused at every turn. GOMtv on the other hand, asked blizzard directly for SC2 broadcasting rights, and Blizzard gave it to them for $1. They clearly don't care about the money, they only want their property rights respected.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Contracts between KeSPA progamers and Blizzard that override their contracts with their respective teams. 7. $100,000 per season of each league.
Owning any sort of content OGN/MBC create? Owning the rights to the players so that they can basically tell them they HAVE to play sc2 (read their contract with gretech regarding transitioning to sc2)? You call that negotiations?
On the other hand, gretech was offered a 3-year contract for $1, had no programmes/shows blizzard could take ownership of (they're not even a TV, just some obscure online broadcaster), no players or teams (because they cost millions of dollars...), no infrastructure, no maps (they actually used KeSPA maps, go figure...).
The only reason why blizzard made a contract with gretech was because gretech agreed to be submissive, even obsequious, and could represent blizzard in a Korean court as a Korean company.
They wanted to show KeSPA they can make a deal with another company, but in reality gretech is just a puppet of theirs. They clearly wanted to exploit KeSPA. Since gretech had hardly anything to offer to them, blizzard decided to charge non-Koreans for watching gsl, I suppose.
While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general.
OK, what the fuck are you talking about here? T____T Esports has only helped games like CS, Quake and BW. It helped BW immensely... How can it kill gaming if it's perpetuating the sales of games, which would normally be considered outdated?
On March 05 2011 19:00 LegendaryZ wrote: The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players.
As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference.
It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard.
While it looks bad for ESPORTS in Korea right now, a precedent for ignoring a companies IP rights to a game would KILL gaming in general.
OK, what the fuck are you talking about here? T____T Esports has only helped games like CS, Quake and BW. It helped BW immensely... How can it kill gaming if it's perpetuating the sales of games, which would normally be considered outdated?
You don't understand the concept of a legal precedent, I'll explain:
In law, when a ruling is given, it sets the precedent for future behavior. Gaming companies expect that when they produce a game, they will own the intellectual property rights of that game. If there is a legal precedent that they do not in fact have IP rights over their own games, that creates a massive disincentive for gaming companies to produce high quality games and games for competition, and to balance them for ESPORTS. For gaming and ESPORTS in particular to be successful, you need high quality developers (like Blizzard) willing to put the time and effort into a single product (Broodwar and now SC2 after they've moved on from working on BW) to make the games good enough to be used in an ESPORT. They won't do that if they don't own the IPs to their own games, and a ruling against Blizzard here would set a massive precedent (in Korea at least) against that. At the very least, it would kill competitive gaming in Korea, as no gaming companies would work there. It wouldn't happen immediately, but the goal is for ESPORTS to be a long term deal with staying power, so that 10-15 years from now, we can still enjoy it and the next generation can enjoy it as well. That won't happen if the gaming companies don't have their IP rights.
I am also NOT arguing against ESPORTS, you misunderstood my post.
On March 05 2011 19:00 LegendaryZ wrote: The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players.
As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference.
It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard.
If they didn't recognize their rights, HanBit wouldn't ask for permission/make blizzard aware of the esports scene and KeSPA/OGN/MBC wouldn't agree to negotiate and pay royalties.
On March 05 2011 19:00 LegendaryZ wrote: The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players.
As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference.
It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard.
If they didn't recognize their rights, HanBit wouldn't ask for permission/make blizzard aware of the esports scene and KeSPA/OGN/MBC wouldn't agree to negotiate and pay royalties.
KESPA didn't agree to negotiations for years with Blizzard, and eventually Blizzard decided it needed to make a stand for their IP rights and made an unreasonable demand, with the intention of settling in court.
Blizzard clearly feels that their IP rights are being disrespected, and KESPA has messages that state clear as day that Blizzard has no such rights, that's the entire reason Blizzard is sue'ing.
KESPA did a great thing for the ESPORTS scene, but the problem is that they aren't helping the future of ESPORTS in many ways, they're preventing it from growing further at this point. I don't blame them really, they're trying to earn profits for their sponsors, but it's not a good thing for ESPORTS.
On March 05 2011 19:00 LegendaryZ wrote: The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players.
As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference.
It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard.
If they didn't recognize their rights, HanBit wouldn't ask for permission/make blizzard aware of the esports scene and KeSPA/OGN/MBC wouldn't agree to negotiate and pay royalties.
KESPA didn't agree to negotiations for years with Blizzard, and eventually Blizzard decided it needed to make a stand for their IP rights and made an unreasonable demand, with the intention of settling in court.
What are you talking about? Blizzard themsleves stated that they began "negotiating" in 2007. Then they were breaking off/postponing the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed...
They made such ridiculous claims from get go. They never had the intentions of the talks getting anywhere. They wanted everything to coincide with the release of sc2.
Are you telling me the tyranny of blizzard is better than KeSPA for esports? T___T So far blizzard has been dragging esports down with their stupidity. No LAN? No cross-server play? Shit maps? Suing broadcasters? Threatening to shut down OSL/MSL/PL? I could go on and on...
id rather see companies producing games that are esports quality than companies support esports if we could only have 1. if the rights of game producers arent respected they dont have much incentive to balance to the extreme like esports demands.
for how much money and time they spent on sc2 they could have made 3 non esport games. and theyd have little reason to balance after the game came out if their games werent played so seriously. think of how slowly diablo 2 got patched and that was a huge non esport game.
On March 05 2011 19:00 LegendaryZ wrote: The myth: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast Starcraft. The reality: KeSPA started charging broadcasting companies to broadcast KeSPA sanctioned games, teams, and players.
As it relates to OSL, MSL, and Proleague the result is the same, but legally there's a world of difference.
It's essentially the same thing though, which is what Blizzard is arguing. KESPA was using a Blizzard product to earn money without recognizing the rights of Blizzard.
If they didn't recognize their rights, HanBit wouldn't ask for permission/make blizzard aware of the esports scene and KeSPA/OGN/MBC wouldn't agree to negotiate and pay royalties.
KESPA didn't agree to negotiations for years with Blizzard, and eventually Blizzard decided it needed to make a stand for their IP rights and made an unreasonable demand, with the intention of settling in court.
What are you talking about? Blizzard themsleves stated that they began "negotiating" in 2007. Then they were breaking off/postponing the negotiations every time sc2 was being delayed...
They made such ridiculous claims from get go. They never had the intentions of the talks getting anywhere. They wanted everything to coincide with the release of sc2.
Are you telling me the tyranny of blizzard is better than KeSPA for esports? T___T So far blizzard has been dragging esports down with their stupidity. No LAN? No cross-server play? Shit maps? Suing broadcasters? Threatening to shut down OSL/MSL/PL? I could go on and on...
Now who's spouting conspiracy theories and misinformation? Where did you come up with this idea that Blizzard would never co-operate with KESPA and wanted to shut everything down and then ramp SC2 up?
And assuming you are right, unfortunately, technically the answer is yes: it is better for ESPORTS for the developers of the games to have the ultimate say in how their game is used. As long as the rights of gaming developers are respected by the ESPORTS community, gaming developers will continue to provide high quality games with reasonable requirements for their use because it is profitable for them to do so. It benefits them economically for ESPORTS to grow and for their games to be used. If their demands are unreasonable after their IP rights are affirmed in court, then the community moves on to another game, or another developer creates a new game after it sees that the market is open for one. That's how the market works. If Blizzard is tyrannical enough about the use of their games, we all go to play a different game. If it doesn't exist, someone makes one. If no company that exists will make one, a new company will be made, because it is profitable to do so.
But if their rights aren't respected and they don't have their own IP rights over their own games, then no developer will ever touch ESPORTS again: there will clearly be little to no profit in it for them to put in the enormous time and effort into developing and balancing and patching and updating games for the ESPORTS world.
Ugh, did you read the list of their demands? Blizzard had them from get-go. KeSPA woul have to be out of their minds to accept such terms... And blizzard officials would have to be pretty damn stupid not to realize this...
Delaying negotiations when sc2 gets delayed is a pretty suspicious correlation.
Why would any developer need to touch esports? BW as an esport happened by accident, so did WC3, CS and Quake. As soon as developers tried to milk money from "esports" everything went down the shitter...
The problem with the argument of KeSPA only charging for Proleague is they don't only air their players walking to the booths and celebrating. No one would watch that shit so they air the actual games, ie property of Blizzard, or so the lawsuit remains to question. You guys keep saying they only charge to broadcast the players and whatnot but the reality really is that they're broadcasting the games. Regardless of what happens to the OSL/MSL, they cannot broadcast the Proleague + Show Spoiler +
(GameTV's creation, OGN's purchase, that KeSPA weaseled away btw. For all the people who have short term memories- refer to here before defending either entity.)
without broadcasting Starcraft and I don't understand why you try to split the two.
And to note: HanBit Soft was the distributer for Korea. A distributer only has rights to sell copies of the game in the area they're in charge of, not broadcast rights, so please stop spreading that bullshit unless you have actual contract text from the Blizzard/HanBit agreement that states so.
On March 05 2011 23:21 xBillehx wrote: The problem with the argument of KeSPA only charging for Proleague is they don't only air their players walking to the booths and celebrating. No one would watch that shit so they air the actual games, ie property of Blizzard, or so the lawsuit remains to question. You guys keep saying they only charge to broadcast the players and whatnot but the reality really is that they're broadcasting the games. Regardless of what happens to the OSL/MSL, they cannot broadcast the Proleague + Show Spoiler +
(GameTV's creation, OGN's purchase, that KeSPA weaseled away btw. For all the people who have short term memories- refer to here before defending either entity.)
without broadcasting Starcraft and I don't understand why you try to split the two.
And to note: HanBit Soft was the distributer for Korea. A distributer only has rights to sell copies of the game in the area they're in charge of, not broadcast rights, so please stop spreading that bullshit unless you have actual contract text from the Blizzard/HanBit agreement that states so.
Nobody would watch CPU vs. CPU matches either. Both the game and the league are part of the package, and KeSPA agreed to pay for blizzard's part. They, however, did not agree to become blizzard's slaves (which giving up the ownership of everything, including the players' contracts/teams is).
The combined ProLeague is very different from its predecessor. I split the two, because they're not charging for BW, but rather PL, unlike OSL or MSL.
As for HanBit, MBC official said they had blizzard's approval. Blizzard had plenty of time to address (aka debunk) that claim.
On March 05 2011 11:52 Xxavi wrote: So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
Teams are supported by their sponsors. That's how they get their money. TV money is the illegal thing...
I hate to compare this to SC2, but theres teams, theres team leagues, theres big tournaments, heck, they have better living conditions probably. Look at those huge monitors and gaming PC. I don't even have one. Do they get TV money? I don't think so. Maybe not even prize money.
Anyways...
Not sure how Kespa pioneered BW. They just caught on when it was getting good and got free money.
With free money, you can do a lot of things. If I had free money I would probably make something cool too and have everyone like it and when the repercussions come, the people can defend me since they like me. -_-
And... didn't we establish the fact that players are not a property value? Thats what blizz was talking about players rights in their argument.
On March 05 2011 11:52 Xxavi wrote: So people are saying Blizzard got angry with Kespa asking money.
Let's now take a step back and look at other professional sports organizations. Like Spanish or English football leagues. They negotiate the TV money, and then distribute it to professional teams.
Now, my question is, KESPA charges money from TV companies and as a non-profit organization, do they distribute this money to pro-teams? Like where does a team get so much money for salaries of their stars? Surely there's TV money?
If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then why people still defend Blizzard? Blizzard doesn't pay the salary of Flash or Bisu, their teams do. And their teams have to earn somehow, and of course that would involve TV deals.
If I was wrong here, then I will be glad to listen to the facts.
Teams are supported by their sponsors. That's how they get their money. TV money is the illegal thing...
I hate to compare this to SC2, but theres teams, theres team leagues, theres big tournaments, heck, they have better living conditions probably. Look at those huge monitors and gaming PC. I don't even have one. Do they get TV money? I don't think so. Maybe not even prize money.
Anyways...
Not sure how Kespa pioneered BW. They just caught on when it was getting good and got free money.
With free money, you can do a lot of things. If I had free money I would probably make something cool too and have everyone like it and when the repercussions come, the people can defend me since they like me. -_-
And... didn't we establish the fact that players are not a property value? Thats what blizz was talking about players rights in their argument.
If blizz came to that conclusion then maybe the should understand the value of a progaming license and just let the play their more prestigious leagues, instead of trying to force sc2 on them and sue the broadcasters who make them earn a living and being able to carry out their dreams.
On March 06 2011 19:59 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: eSports > blizzard, they'll learn that the hard way as soon a aoncurrent RTS appears with better terms..
Dawn of War 2? Noone makes these kinds of RTSs besides Blizzard.
On March 05 2011 19:10 Lotar wrote: They might be "KeSPA-sanctioned" but it's still StarCraft. IP rights should still apply, although IANAL.
Does that mean if you are coaching players and selling lessons through videos of yourself playing sc2 that it is in violation of blizzards IP rights? I'm not implying I'm just asking.
I think you'd need to have at least 100 lawyers and go to the Supreme Court a couple of times to have a definitive answer on that
I don't know whether it would be considered a public(?) performance or a derivative work, but if you show the game being played (as opposed to only showing a closeup of your face or your hands while you're teaching) then Activision/Blizzard's IP rights should come into play. Unless they somehow permit it in their EULA.
Of course, since I'm not a lawyer I'm talking out of my ass. If I was going to create a coaching business I would definitely get counselled by a lawyer specialized in IP rights. It would be interesting to ask the people behind GosuCoaching (Russell Pfister I believe?) what kind of hoops they had to jump through.
all the kids saying kespa for esports....they just want teh moneyz and so does blizzard in the end blizzard is the winner since it is because of them there is starcraft to begin with so +1 for blizzard
On March 07 2011 04:12 rbkl wrote: Have their been any discussions that KeSPA could just pay Blizzard a certain amount, and we can just let them have anything Broodwar they want?
On March 03 2011 02:50 SkCom wrote: Although it is sad for eSports you have to realise Blizzard is a full-fledged company and they have to protect their rights. We're talking THOUSANDS of jobs here and hundreds of familis tepending on Blizzard's income every month. I feel a lot of people support kespa because of loyalty and fail to see the biggure picture. In a perfect world they would respect the authority of the figure providing the IPs. Either way, as I said, sad for eSports but Blizz is losing a ton of money from KESPA and that's a lot of money that doesn't go towards the development of our favorite games.
I know this is 9 pages behind the train but I just want to point out how insane this post is. They are not a company that is in danger, by any means whatsoever.
They have been consistently more than happy with "losing money" for over 12 years from KESPA.
Also, as a long time blizzard fan I can safely say they have yet to spend money on any development of my favorite games for quite some time.
Again, not to get into it and sorry to be off topic, but you know how it is I'm sure.
Ok for all of those supporting blizzard: Name a single way in which blizzard winning will have a positive impact for the pro broodwar scene or name a single way in which kespa winning will have a negative impact for the scene. Because that's the only thing I care about here.
On March 07 2011 05:00 L3gendary wrote: Ok for all of those supporting blizzard: Name a single way in which blizzard winning will have a positive impact for the pro broodwar scene or name a single way in which kespa winning will have a negative impact for the scene. Because that's the only thing I care about here.
Blizzard winning can only mean bad things for BW since they want to switch to SC2, though I'd love to see people like Jaedong/Flash playing SC2 while still in their prime. Kespa winning means more of the same, which I guess is ok but it could be better.
Blizzard has every right to do what they are doing and I support them. They finally got fed up with Kespa after some 12yrs and decided to do something about it.
On March 07 2011 04:12 rbkl wrote: Have their been any discussions that KeSPA could just pay Blizzard a certain amount, and we can just let them have anything Broodwar they want?
I know this is 9 pages behind the train but I just want to point out how insane this post is. They are not a company that is in danger, by any means whatsoever.
They have been consistently more than happy with "losing money" for over 12 years from KESPA.
Also, as a long time blizzard fan I can safely say they have yet to spend money on any development of my favorite games for quite some time.
Again, not to get into it and sorry to be off topic, but you know how it is I'm sure.
Making this argument is eerily similar to the music industry prior to Napster (and P2P in general). Both Blizzard and the music industry may be motivated by greed, but to claim that either or both were "more than happy" with their respective situations is outright arrogant.
Starcraft 1 / Broodwar was a popular game but the pro-gamer scene was still niche and locally centered on Korea in a time when the cyber and online gaming world were, relatively speaking, The Stone Ages. Go back and play SC1/BW on check out the original battle.net, which had to function for 28.8bps dialup modems on Windows 95/98 computers. PS2 and Xbox didn't even exist yet, Everquest and MMOs were still new and the drive for faster better graphics cards/monitors/RAM/etc wasn't even in full swing yet.
When did Kespa and BW pro-gaming start to go in full swing and extend beyond a niche fan base in the rest of the world? When Youtube and streaming technologies started going mainstream, and Youtube literally became the Napster of the SC scene, specifically from channels like Jon747 and others. This just happened to coincide around the same time frame when Starcraft: Ghost was being scrapped, the later announcement of Starcraft 2, and the merger of Activision Blizzard.
Were they losing money prior to that time frame? Probably not much if any, they had no way to capitalize on it themselves. But that doesn't mean KESPA, or more precisely the money made by KESPA from the televised matches with advertising money was actually legal back then or now. It's important to realize that KESPA started out in the dark area, then they pulled the fiasco with GOM Averatec-Intel Classic Season3, then the head-to-head rights and lawsuit clash happened, and now KESPA and their affiliates are once again pulling this current fiasco by excluding Blizzard games.
You may love the Korean SC1/WC3 pro-gaming scene, you may hate Bobby Kotick and the ActiBlizzard lawyers, but just remember that they didn't start filing lawsuits against individual pro-gamers or pro-teams, there was no prejudice or hate for any former SC1/WC pro-gamers that entered the SC2 scene in fact they have been overwhelmingly embraced. Blizzard did the right thing and left them alone and went straight for KESPA and the TV contracts/licensing rights.
I know this is 9 pages behind the train but I just want to point out how insane this post is. They are not a company that is in danger, by any means whatsoever.
They have been consistently more than happy with "losing money" for over 12 years from KESPA.
Also, as a long time blizzard fan I can safely say they have yet to spend money on any development of my favorite games for quite some time.
Again, not to get into it and sorry to be off topic, but you know how it is I'm sure.
Making this argument is eerily similar to the music industry prior to Napster (and P2P in general). Both Blizzard and the music industry may be motivated by greed, but to claim that either or both were "more than happy" with their respective situations is outright arrogant.
Starcraft 1 / Broodwar was a popular game but the pro-gamer scene was still niche and locally centered on Korea in a time when the cyber and online gaming world were, relatively speaking, The Stone Ages. Go back and play SC1/BW on check out the original battle.net, which had to function for 28.8bps dialup modems on Windows 95/98 computers. PS2 and Xbox didn't even exist yet, Everquest and MMOs were still new and the drive for faster better graphics cards/monitors/RAM/etc wasn't even in full swing yet.
When did Kespa and BW pro-gaming start to go in full swing and extend beyond a niche fan base in the rest of the world? When Youtube and streaming technologies started going mainstream, and Youtube literally became the Napster of the SC scene, specifically from channels like Jon747 and others. This just happened to coincide around the same time frame when Starcraft: Ghost was being scrapped, the later announcement of Starcraft 2, and the merger of Activision Blizzard.
Were they losing money prior to that time frame? Probably not much if any, they had no way to capitalize on it themselves. But that doesn't mean KESPA, or more precisely the money made by KESPA from the televised matches with advertising money was actually legal back then or now. It's important to realize that KESPA started out in the dark area, then they pulled the fiasco with GOM Averatec-Intel Classic Season3, then the head-to-head rights and lawsuit clash happened, and now KESPA and their affiliates are once again pulling this current fiasco by excluding Blizzard games.
You may love the Korean SC1/WC3 pro-gaming scene, you may hate Bobby Kotick and the ActiBlizzard lawyers, but just remember that they didn't start filing lawsuits against individual pro-gamers or pro-teams, there was no prejudice or hate for any former SC1/WC pro-gamers that entered the SC2 scene in fact they have been overwhelmingly embraced. Blizzard did the right thing and left them alone and went straight for KESPA and the TV contracts/licensing rights.
Take away kespa and you take away all that is BW progaming. We all know that blizzard won't fund anything that big since it's not cost efficient. Blizzard is all about the micro transactions since that earns them the biggest buck.
Still think the kespa vs blizzard dispute is quite childish. Blizzard does have right on their side but Kespa is pretty much the reason that Sc2 even got as hyped up as it did so yeah sad to see this affecting this tournament as well.
EPT
